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Realistically, I just can't really see Apple fixing this by introducing a new keyboard design that's any thicker. As much as I would love to hear "We've heard y
by phinnaeus 8y ago
Realistically, I just can't really see Apple fixing this by introducing a new keyboard design that's any thicker. As much as I would love to hear "We've heard your feedback on the keyboards and we've made some drastic changes to address them in our new Macbook Pro", it just doesn't seem like their style. What do others think they're going to do for their next release of laptops?
- acomjean 8y agoI think they'll gradually improve the keyboard. It won't be great but it will be good enough. like the "don't hold it that way" antenna gate problem and the phone bending problems.. They'll fix.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_4#Antenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_6#Chassis_bending https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPhone_6#Chassis_bending Honestly, its hard to get off the mac ecosystem though. I have a macbook pro, and am starting to look at linux laptops. The options don't seem great. older Apple laptops are pretty well built, so hopefully it'll last a couple more years...
- ngngngng 8y agoOnly thing I'm considering is a thinkpad x1 carbon. But the last time I tried putting linux on a laptop I had a few issues submitted to the linux kernel and still didn't have the laptop working perfectly (Asus zenbook) within a week I returned it and bought a MacBook pro. Might be time for another go.
- wutbrodo 8y agoI believe Thinkpads are famously easy to make work with Linux. I had one in college (a decade ago) and an x1 carbon when I was at Google (several years ago) and both of them were excellent (though the latter obviously would've had any kinks ironed out by the Goobuntu team). My last couple laptops had better hardware (for my needs) than ThinkPads or Macbooks, but the occasional compatibility issue is enough that I'm thinking about switching back to Thinkpads.
- _emacsomancer_ 8y agoRedHat people famously also use lots of ThinkPads.
- ajdlinux 8y agoI run Debian on my work-issued X1 Carbon and it works well enough that my next personal laptop is probably going to be an X1.
- namibj 8y agoConsider it's brothers, the 3-digit X and T models, which, especially in form of premature leasing returns, have excellent price for the value. And due to the stagnation with CPU power, all from Haswell should be well within usable.
- lmm 8y agoThe old, IBM-made Thinkpads were. AIUI it's not really so true of the modern Lenovo ones.
- wutbrodo 8y agoAll the ones I've had (and all the references I've read about their compatibility) have been during the Lenovo period, I believe.
- paulie_a 8y agoJust get a Dell XPS developer edition. It is what an MBP is supposed to be but actually delivers for roughly the same price or less depending on configuration. The click pad and keyboard are far superior too.
- eecc 8y agoExcept for the nostril cam, and the greasy palm rest... and coil whine...
- robin_reala 8y agoFwiw the coil whine is apparently fixed in newer generations.
- paulie_a 8y agoOddly enough it has gone completely away on my 2017 model. I can only guess a firmware upgrade fixed it, which is probably unlikely. Or getting jossled around in my backpack got it aligned?
- dnr 8y agoUbuntu has worked perfectly on my last two thinkpads, an X220 and X1 Carbon (4th gen). That's almost 7 years now. I think only the only real caveat is that the fingerprint reader isn't supported. I can't speak for other laptop brands, but just get a thinkpad (or a dell xps).
- cturner 8y agoI recommend the X1C. I had a first-edition. It was wonderful, and lasted me for five years. Last year I upgraded to X1C5. It is far lighter still, the keyboard is good, it is just a joy to interact with. (debian stable)
- mushufasa 8y agoSystem 76 (the small linux-only hardware manufacturer) just refreshed their Oryx Pro last month, which looks pretty capable and looks from afar to be really good build quality. https://system76.com/laptops/oryx https://system76.com/laptops/oryx I haven't found many/any reviews of it since the refresh -- does anyone on HN have one who can attest?
- fein 8y agoI think System76 is using Clevo/Sager chassis still. You can buy these setups from a place like xotic and load up linux yourself for a bit less than System76 stuff costs.
- bubblethink 8y agoYeah, I don't get system 76's draw. If they were doing something meaningful with their systems like developing coreboot for them, that would make it a selling point at least. They have recently started using me_cleaner, which is a good start I guess. Other than that, I think they are developing their own distro, which seems like an utter waste.
- rorykoehler 8y agoYou can't be serious? The thing doesn't even have a centred trackpad.
- singlow 8y agoIt has anumeric keypad so the touchpad is in the correct place.
- pmontra 8y agoIt's the number pad that's in the wrong place. It should not be on the laptop. I've got a HP with a number pad because no 15" model doesn't have one. I never use it (the number pad) but I have to shift the whole machine to the right to have the touchpad and the "real" keyboard in front of me. So most of the vern is on the right of my eyes. Great design!
- Arn_Thor 8y agoAs someone who'd been in the Mac ecosystem and paid the price in time and expense of leaving for a PC a few years back, I'm starting to lean back toward the Mac side. The amount of fiddling and headaches I'm dealing with on Windows is just a huge waste of time. Had to reinstall all my programs after a recent Windows update ruined the OS.
- stefanfisk 8y agothis is what's keeping me from switching. every time I try spending a day on Windows I remember just how much macOS "just works", even if it has warts all over the place.
- BinaryIdiot 8y agoSee, I've always used both and I just don't understand this whole "I have to spend a day on Windows making X work". I haven't experienced this in at least a decade. Windows 10 "just works" with every device and software I've thrown at it.
- geomark 8y agoThat's the thing about anecdotes, one person's experience is completely opposite of anothers. I got a laptop with Windows 10 on it and immediately experienced the "100% disk utilization problem", which makes it basically unusable. I Googled around and found hundreds of posts about the problem and many dozens of suggested fixes of which zero worked (for me). So it's sitting on a shelf until I get around to installing Ubuntu on it, which has always just worked for me (which is the opposite of some other people's experiences).
- stefanfisk 8y agoit's also very dependent on what you want to use your computer for. as a frontend dev I want a mix of Adobe CS and a bunch of primarily posix compatible tools, and then Windows is seriously suboptimal. but even beyond that the sheer number of popups and shit I need to close when starting from a clean install on Windows makes me want to punch the computer, and naturally that is a very subjective experience. and stuff like apps stealing focus in general. if a mac app makes itself the key window in a non-standard way I immediately consider uninstalling it, on win that just seems to be what all apps do when opening new windows.
- gnicholas 8y agoThe day after the keyboard program was announced, I had an appointment at the Apple Store Stanford to get my MBP keyboard fixed. The Apple Genius confirmed that the replacement parts that there’re using now are tweaked versions of the originals, not identical. Of course, even if this makes the keyboards somewhat more resilient, I will still find it very uncomfortable to type on...
- antouank 8y agoI'm about to get a new laptop. I had an MBP for 4 years now. I just ordered the Razer Blade 15. DELL's XPS 15 is also a very good choice, although the blade has a bit more recent hardware. Both are upgradable. You can add RAM or SSD if you want. Both run linux just fine.
- some_account 8y agoThey both have loud fans, along with every other pc laptop in that league it seems. MacBooks are virtually quiet most of the time.
- dsego 8y agoA bit too quiet sometimes, to the point of melting my lap. There's even an app to set the fan speed and prevent overheating.
- antouank 8y agoYeah, quiet but goes to 100C constantly. Once I get the razer I'll check what's the temps/loudness there. But with the MBP, I turn the fans up all the time, to avoid burning my fingers when I type :/
- acdha 8y agoThe difference is that the antenna & bending issues were grossly exaggerated by clickbait reporting and lawyers angling for a class action win. As the wikipedia articles note, neither affected a significant number of users – the iPhone 4's antenna was still more sensitive than the 3GS it replaced – whereas the keyboard issues affect a lot of people. It's not the urban legend-style “my third cousin has a friend who held his phone hard enough to drop a call” reports which characterized those earlier flaps but real named people who are directly affected and getting hardware replacements because Apple techs agreed with the problem.
- qihqi 8y agoPixelBook seems great... It has a beta linux mode.
- trilinearnz 8y agoReplace the entire keyboard with an oversized touchbar? ;)
- apocalypstyx 8y agoI personally suspect one day they'll marry the touch bar and the taptic engine to make a keyboard surface. That way they could have emoji keyboards and such. And they would only have to manufacture one top case, no matter what country they were shipped to.
- ztjio 8y agoThey registered a patent for pretty much exactly that before the original iPhone was introduced.
- alanfalcon 8y agoMaybe if it worked with the Apple Pencil and the taptic feedback was good enough I could see being curious about it. It’d probably just be a good way to incite a riot though.
- state_less 8y agoI’d probably try out a ultralight/thin “laptop”, akin to what is depicted in Westworld. Two touchscreens clamshelled together. But yeah, I think they’d need to keep the door open with a traditional keyboard layout too.
- 2muchcoffeeman 8y agoThat’s not too far fetched. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks
- mikhailt 8y agoThey filed a patent application for it already: http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=24&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=(apple.AANM.+AND+2018031%24.PD.)&OS=aanm/apple+and+pd/2018031&RS=(AANM/apple+AND+PD/2018031) http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=H...
- oldcynic 8y agoShort of fitting a keyboard condom, or iPad (no doubt called TouchBoard) where the keyboard used to be, what can they do? Make the battery thinner so they can get sane key travel back within the case without increasing overall thickness? So I expect to see a couple more releases of ultra thin keyboards with various fix mechanisms before they accept that rules of physics and dust apply to them too. :)
- wlll 8y ago> what can they do? Make the case thicker.
- mewse-hn 8y agoA "keyboard condom" isn't a joke or insane. It would be a membrane layer between the operating mechanism of the keyswitches and the keycaps. They haven't done it because it adds thickness to the design.
- interestica 8y agoHave a keyboard that has increased travel when the laptop is open. (raised up?) And have it return to a compressed state when the screen is closed.
- joering2 8y agoThey will fix it. They have 100 billion dollars (!!!) in the bank to fix this issue, even if it takes next 100 years.
- bdcravens 8y agoAs for making the keyboard thicker, I doubt it. Once Apple makes a decision that dramatically alters their product in a way that users complain about, they generally don't backtrack. (floppy drive, CD drive, and Ethernet removal. Headphone jack removal. Losing Mac Pro traditional tower form factor. Flat design in iOS. etc etc etc)
- pmontra 8y agoBut none of those changes cost them money. According to the article this is eating away their margin.
- mikhailt 8y agoRecent patents granted to or filed by Apple: 1. Touchscreen keyboard with haptic feedback: https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/03/15/apple-seeks-patent-for-keyless-keyboard-concept-with-haptic-feedback https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/03/15/apple-seeks-paten... 2. Protection against duct/crumbles/liquid for their keyboard: http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-apple-invention-declares-war-on-crumby-keyboards.html http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2018/03/a-new-ap...
- cma 8y agoMaglev keyboard: https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16826146/new-dell-xps-15-2-in-1-laptop-announced-ces-2018 https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2018/1/9/16826146/ne...
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoOh, that sounds very nice. Has anyone tried this yet?
- AstralStorm 8y agoYes, lack of tactile feedback sucks (you get it after key is depressed) and the keys themselves are not exactly mechanically stable. And when you solve these two, the result is almost identical to a scissor switch.
- rmrfrmrf 8y agoIt sounds like all they really needed to do was buy time to get the battery's form factor down.
- QML 8y agoThe thickness of the keyboard isn't the issue -- the issue is its fixability. I've heard various accounts of when a key gets stuck, Apple has to replace the whole bottom half of the laptop.
- rasz 8y agoHistorically they just keep replacing old broken hardware with new/reworked broken hardware. Reworking includes reheating GPUs (!), or putting rubber shims(!) over vulnerable BGA chips with cracked solder joints.