13 ms·

Be careful about that kind of wording. I and friends who're on the spectrum don't consider it a "mental disorder". It's simply a physiological difference, one t

• cosmojg 8y ago
  Doesn't that reasoning apply to any disorder? Medically, a disorder is simply "a disruption of normal physical or mental functions." So, having any disorder makes one abnormal, unique, special, and possibly above average or below average, but certainly not average. "Disorder" and "special physiological difference" are synonyms.
  • arkades 8y ago
    “Disorder” is explicitly pejorative. I’m not sure where I stand wrt the position that autism is just a non-inferior neurovariant, but let’s not pretend we don’t understand the difference between asserting it’s a value-neutral variant and a disease.
    • throwawaymath 8y ago
      No, "disorder" is explicitly clinical. The words "retarded", "dumb", and "stupid" are pejorative. Calling autism a disorder is an accurate paychiatric description, not a value judgement designed to insult a person's identity. An insult can be targeted at a person's autism, but not simply by describing it according to clinical terminology. I sympathize with people who don't believe autism should be considered a disorder, but that doesn't mean discussion needs to be encumbered by walking on eggshells. In particular, admonishing someone for using established clinical terminology is unproductive.
      • gowld 8y ago
        "retarded" and "dumb" are also clinical terms. They only stopped being clinical terms because people attached connotations. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euphemism_treadmill https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euphemism_treadmill
        • lujim 8y ago
          Yes this happens over time as clinical terms are used in a derogatory manner over a period of several decades. This will always happen and some clinical terms will continually need to be revised over time. It doesn't mean that "disorder" isn't appropriate in 2018. It just means it may not be appropriate in 2058.
        • throwawaymath 8y ago
          Alright, if you'd like me to excessively specify my point: "retarded" and "dumb" are adjectives not used in the DSM 5, which means they are not modern clinical terms. They have also been abolished completely. "Disorder" is still in common use, not only for autism but across the DSM as a common term meaning "atypical and diagnosable." So yes, "disorder" is an appropriate term at the moment. Whether it will continue to be in the future is irrelevant for present conversation. For what it's worth, if you're arguing that "disorder" should not be used on the basis of precedents like "dumb" and "retarded", the page you cited is an exceptionally poor reference. The quotes appear to be mocking this phenomenon.
          • antonvs 8y ago
            > "Disorder" is still in common use, not only for autism but across the DSM as a common term meaning "atypical and diagnosable." So yes, "disorder" is an appropriate term at the moment. In a clinical context, yes. But there are probably close to zero clinicians in this thread. One problem with the term "disorder" here is that quite often, it's applied to someone who has difficulty thriving under the many accommodations given to neurotypical people. If the autism spectrum was the norm, neurotypicals would have a similar disorder. > Whether it will continue to be in the future is irrelevant for present conversation. Not necessarily. It's perfectly possible for society to lead clinicians on issues like this, which is what seems to have happened with words like "society" and "dumb".
  • smt88 8y ago
    Is that the psychiatric definition of disorder? My understanding is that it has to be disagreeable to the person who has it or put others at risk (in extreme instances). So for example, someone with synesthesia might be considered disordered only if it prevents them from being happy or taking care of themselves, while many people with synesthesia seem to enjoy it.
    • lujim 8y ago
      A clinically important syndrome; that is, it's a collection of symptoms (these can be behavioral or psychological) that causes the person disability or distress in social, personal, or occupational functioning.
  • gowld 8y ago
    Disorder is deviation from a declared healthy norm. "Difference" is more symmetric. A disorder is a condition that causes suffering.
    • antonvs 8y ago
      But that suffering may be the result of attempting to function in a system set up for a different type of person. "Disorder" is, in many cases, a biased way to look at it.
• lujim 8y ago
  I hear you but the DSM-5 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders) classifies it as a mental disorder. Autism Spectrum Disorder 299.00 (F84.0)
  • jahabrewer 8y ago
    I wouldn't use this as a supporting argument. Didn't DSM-3 classify homosexuality as a disorder?
    • vehementi 8y ago
      Really? A widely recognized reference manual is blanket discredited because it made a mistake in the past (1952-1974, not DSM-3)?
      • jacquesm 8y ago
        That makes it a book in which some statements are social reflections rather than statements rooted in good science, which makes other such statements somewhat suspect. It doesn't mean you should reject the whole thing out of hand but it might be a good idea to try to figure out how much of it is todays bias rather than good science in cases where that is warranted.
        • krageon 8y ago
          I'd contend that the most useful ground state for most of us, being people with no knowledge in the field whatsoever, is to assume that the DSM is broadly correct. From there you can, given some evidence, conclude that parts might not be.
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
    • lujim 8y ago
      I'm not sure, but I bet you're right. It is a medical reference that will change over time as better information becomes available. It's still the definitive manual for classifying mental and personality disorders.
• JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Be careful about that kind of wording I have friends on the spectrum. I happen to agree that mildly autistic behaviour is more akin to a personality difference than a disorder. That said, I don't think it's fair to admonish someone for using the colloquial norm. The comment might read better if stated less as "careful, you're doing something wrong" and more in the tone of "here is another viewpoint you may find helpful and interesting."
  • BadCookie 8y ago
    To add to your comment, I wish that high-functioning ASD people would stop ignoring the more severe end of the spectrum. If you are high-functioning, then maybe ASD just makes you quirky and different. But for the lower functioning people, ASD can profoundly affect their lives in extremely negative ways. For example, my son almost starved himself to death because of sensory difficulties. He is four years old and still cannot feed himself. For my son, ASD is not just a small difference that the world has not accepted yet. It's something that possibly could have killed him if he had had less devoted parents and/or lived in less privileged circumstances. And my son is not even a particularly extreme case. With lots of therapy and a little luck, he may be considered high-functioning someday. Other kids might be in diapers forever, never talk, and live in a group home their entire adult lives. So I struggle to take seriously the high-functioning people who throw fits about what language we use to describe our situation. I've had people get mad at me for saying that I have a son with autism when I apparently should have said that I have an autistic son. I'm sorry, I'm too busy keeping my son alive to care!
    • PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      Absolutely. One of the biggest problems in autism advocacy is high-functioning people (like me) and (the guardians of) low-functioning people constantly talking past each other. Some people are perfectly happy as they are and don't want to be changed, some people are desperately unhappy and could really benefit from treatment or even a "cure". The spectrum is far too broad for a single approach to work. > I've had people get mad at me for saying that I have a son with autism when I apparently should have said that I have an autistic son. I honestly can't remember which one of those I'm "supposed" to be. I could make a case against either: "person with autism" might sound like it's some outside affliction, "autistic person" might sound like the condition matters more than the person. But extreme concern over small details is a defining trait of autism, and I do it too on other subjects, so I suppose I can't be too judgmental...
• sidlls 8y ago
  I have family diagnosed with ASD (all high-functioning). They're obviously different and abnormal, and they know it. In fact that specific knowledge that they're abnormal is a source of anxiety in individuals with ASD. I think it's perfectly reasonable to call it a disorder, and they seem fine with it also.
• smt88 8y ago
  My sister is on the spectrum, and she agrees with the idea that autism is a mental disorder. What she disagrees with is calling anyone on the spectrum "disordered". So she'd agree with you that most autistic people shouldn't be labeled that way, but disagree that no autistic people should be. Even at her low end of the spectrum, it can cause a lot of distress and pain. I guess it just depends on a person's particular case and the circumstances of their life.
• gowld 8y ago
  And other people suffer from an inability to engage and thrive in the world. If you don't have a disorder, that's great. Some do.
• mcguire 8y ago
  Essentially all psychological differences vary from a behavioral quirk to a disabling disorder. The distinguishing line between psychological difference and psychological disorder can (probably) vary from person to person: the only valid distinction is if the psychological difference causes problems for the person.
• vorotato 8y ago
  If it's not affecting you in a negative way then it's not a disorder. If it is then it can be. If it doesn't have serious negative impacts then you're just non-neurotypical which is fine. People have the same opinions around ADHD but when you need accommodation or treatment it's worth classifying it as something that needs some level of accommodation or treatment.
  • deleted 8y ago
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  • antonvs 8y ago
    "Normal" people get all sorts of accommodations and treatments - the world is set up to support their needs. People with different needs, who need different accommodations are then labeled as having a "disorder". It's a biased system which doesn't allow for normal variations between types of people.
• jklinger410 8y ago
  Be careful about that kind of wording. Those of us with loved ones who have severe autism consider it a "mental disorder" and not simply a psychological difference. We'd really love for all of the "neurodivergent" people to have their own diagnosis.
  • fwip 8y ago
    Thanks, but I care more about what a person with autism says than somebody who simply knows one.
    • red75prime 8y ago
      Many people with autism don't have enough communication skills to do that.
      • krageon 8y ago
        You are correct because your statement doesn't quantify it in any meaningful way, which is the least useful kind of correct. For example, I can also say that "many people with autism do have enough communication skills to do that". We both understand how a lot of readers will interpret these two statements if made in isolation, even though that is wrong. They can both be true at the same time (and in this case I'd say they are), which is why it's not a useful statement to make. They appear to contradict, but don't actually do so because they don't claim anything of value.
        • red75prime 8y ago
          You can learn more about certain people with autism by talking to people who care for them than by talking to them, especially online. That's all there is to my statement.
    • jklinger410 8y ago
      I'll try to get my little brother to sign up to a hacker news account. If we get that far without me doing it for him, we'll see if you can make sense of his response. He doesn't have a great ability to write because he's severely autistic. You know, the disorder kind that makes it difficult to learn to read and write?
• core-questions 8y ago
  > I and friends who're on the spectrum don't consider it a "mental disorder". If you lack the capability to simulate the mental state of another human being based on observation, you're deficient in a key aspect of what we consider to be a normal functioning mind. This is not a judgement on your character! Don't confuse the two. We don't think people with Down's or any other disorder are bad, or unworthy of a good life and plenty of opportunities to succeed. But it is a disorder, especially for those who are much more profoundly impacted than yourself, and if it can be addressed with treatment or prevented entirely during pregnancy, it should be.