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In Germany, the use of cash has become a proxy for concerns about trust, privacy

138 points by ShadowFaxSam 8y ago

alleskleber 8y ago
In my experience some Germans are quite skeptical about technology when it comes to money. Cash is so simple, nothing can go wrong. Cash just works - always. Privacy is more of a bonus point. It's used as an argument a lot but I think Germans are so used to carry cash, it's just not perceived as a major annoyance.
ShadowFaxSam 8y ago
>Yet for many Germans, the convenience of electronic payment is beside the point. Rather, the use of cash has, to a surprising extent, become a proxy for profound concerns about trust, privacy, and the role of the state. I've been banging my head against the table since moving to Germany about the lack of convenience with cash payments and the need to constantly visit the ATM. Yet the economy is doing just fine.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Yes, it is annoying. At least they have their money purses in restaurants and give you change in an instant instead of fumbling it like in other places. They are as efficient as cash allows it to be. (And most places that cards only take German cards)
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Germany has a bunch of things going for it, and a bunch of things against. This one of the "against" things, but I don't think it's a huge factor.
- CogitoCogito 8y ago
  Personally I find the push in Sweden to only use card much more annoying. Cash tends to fail much more rarely for me than cards. Of course there's no reason why they can't coexist but since much of the official point of cashless is tracking, cash will always be bad for those pushing for increased surveillance. Incidentally when I lived in Berlin I used to only use cash and I never found it a bother. My bank had ATMs in many places and it really wasn't very hard to keep cash around. I've always found it a little odd when people talk about ATMs as being inconvenient when historically they're probably as convenient as they've ever been. Of course it is always easier not to have to go to an ATM, but today it really isn't that hard unless you have some tiny ATM network. Regardless, having both cash and cashless is definitely the best of both worlds. Convenience, redundancy, autonomy. I wish people would stop unnecessarily view the two methods as incompatible when they complement each other so well.
  - chatmasta 8y ago
    I don’t think the view is that they are incompatible with each other, but rather that cash is incompatible with the motives of payment processors and banks.
    - petre 8y ago
      Add to that the motives of state institutions who can freely put their fingers in the honey jar (your bank account).
  - michaelt 8y ago
    If the benefit of cashless is that you don't have to carry around a pocket full of cash, they're incompatible in the sense that if you use both, you lose that benefit.
    - CogitoCogito 8y ago
      If a store takes cash and card why do you need to carry cash? There is no incompatibility whatsoever. Having both only gives you more options.
  - mrweasel 8y ago
    >Cash tends to fail much more rarely for me than cards. It's the same in Denmark. The payment processing networks are really stable, just not stable enough to eliminate or not always carry enough cash to pay for groceries. When payment processing have 100% uptime for five years, then maybe we can debate eliminating cash in some places.
  - kungtotte 8y ago
    There's also the security angle. You can't rob a cashless place of business. This is the official reason given by many businesses here in Sweden as to why they're going cashless, and many who don't go cashless use lockbox systems where the cashier can't access the cash at all. The machine dispenses correct change as part of a transaction, but otherwise it's locked tight. I'd be interested to see any data collected regarding this; whether or not armed robbery against things like restaurants and grocery stores has decreased after the move to cashless.
- kara_jade 8y ago
  How exactly is it inconvenient? I can't really think of anything. For example, proponents of cashless payments often like to claim that paying with cash takes more time than paying with a card, but the opposite is true. [1] And if you have "the need to constantly visit the ATM", then perhaps it would be a good idea to withdraw more money to last you longer? My bank actually doesn't allow withdrawals of less than 50 Euros, but even before that was introduced I simply withdrew the money I needed for a month at the beginning of a month -- and that was it. [1] http://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/geld-ausgeben/was-ist-schneller-bargeld-oder-kartenzahlung-14546519.html?printPagedArticle=true http://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/geld-ausg... (German)
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    How is cash inconvenient? Well: - instead of just going to a shop, I now need to go to a bank, and then to a shop - I mean that's pretty obviously and undeniably less convenient for a start - I have to carry a lot of little bits of valuable paper around with me - enough for an entire month of expenses in your opinion! - when I pay I have to wait for them to count the money, gather up the change, return the change, which I then have to count, compared to just tapping my card and going - I get no protections such as insurance for my purchases I can't how understand how anyone can argue cash is more convenient! And how can you possibly argue cash is faster? Paying by card takes 0.5 seconds - I don't have to even look at what I'm doing I just wave my card and go. Your articles talks about arcane things like inserting your card, paper printouts, signing with a pen - you haven't needed to do that with cards for a decade or more.
    - mpweiher 8y ago
      > I now need to go to a bank, and then to a shop Hmmm...if you go to a bank to withdraw cash every tine you go to a shop I could see your point, but I would suggest that "you're holding it wrong". > I have to carry a lot of little bits of valuable paper around with me Which are limited in terms of risk, whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit. Carrying the bits of paper (and coins) has the big benefit of being tangible, that is we get to use all our senses to understand something otherwise very abstract. > when I pay I have to wait [..] Err...sorry, cash transactions are invariably much quicker than card transactions around here. > I get no protections such as insurance You mean you don't have ridiculous services bundled together for no reason whatsoever. > I can't how understand how anyone can argue cash is more convenient! And I can't understand how anyone can argue that cards are more convenient, when they clearly are not. >And how can you possibly argue cash is faster? Paying by card takes 0.5 seconds - Where? Around here, card transactions always take longer. > arcane things like inserting your card, paper printouts, signing with a pen [..] decade or more. Actually, having to sign on EC payments has become a thing recently, it used to be exclusively PIN. And sometimes it's PIN, sometimes it's signature, in the same shop, with the same card. They payment processor seems to choose by some randomized algorithm.
- tnolet 8y ago
  I moved from the Netherlands (one of the most cashless countries in Europe) to Berlin 3 years ago. I invite anyone doubting the convenience of cards, specifically contacless ones, over cash to join me for a regular morning of shopping groceries in Berlin and then in my hometown in NL. You will be cured.
  - mpfundstein 8y ago
    i totally agree. I live in Amsterdam since 7 years and everytime I visit my family in Munich , I am surprised a backwards they are. And how inconvenient cash is.
PinguTS 8y ago
Cash is cool. Cash is anonymously. Cash is independent from any payment processor. Cash has no payment fees. Cash does not require power, so it is somehow environment friendly. Cash is just cool.
- philfrasty 8y ago
  "Cash has no payment fees" This is simply not true. Take a business for example: 1.) have a cashbox (or multiple) 2.) guard cashbox 3.) every evening count money in cashbox 4.) hope the cash you took in is still in the cashbox 5.) if not 4) --> accounting nightmare + fire employee 6.) bring cash to bank
  - ForHackernews 8y ago
    Only for businesses that handle large volumes of cash. For person-to-person transactions, cash is the way to go.
    - harperlee 8y ago
      ATM withdrawal is not generally free; both the ATM network and your bank can charge fees for withdrawing money. At least in Spain this is true; I think it is generally true at least lso with French banks. Withdrawing abroad is normally with fees. EDIT: Downvotes in HN are not a dissenting mechanism; they are there to bury inappropriate/misleading/etc. comments (not that I particularly care, but it seems a proper opportunity to clarify a misconception).
      - richardknop 8y ago
        In a lot of Europe it is free.
        aequitas 8y ago
        Just as free as free shipping, at the end of the day you pay for it someway, like (higher) banking fees, cost for (extra) card, reduced interest rates, etc.
coinerone 8y ago
At least, Germany is not as bad as Japan!
Grollicus 8y ago
Americans always cry about taxes but then they pay an 8% premium on everything to their payment processor. As long as the money doesn't go to the state its okay, right?
- dmurray 8y ago
  But they get 1.5% cash back!
- mnx 8y ago
  8%? What? That can't be true.
  - kuschku 8y ago
    Visa and MasterCard hover around 2-3%, but AMEX often goes up to 7-8% for certain goods, yes. Credit cards are a massive cost to society and should be replaced.
    - therealmarv 8y ago
      in USA? I don't believe. In EU the costs on debit cards for the merchant is about 1-1.5% and on credit cards a little higher, 1-2%. This are the real numbers. If you pay more you are getting screwed.
    - mnx 8y ago
      Ok, so AMEX is unreasonably expensive. That 2-3% is exactly what I expect - maybe even a little lower, esp. for bigger merchants. Why would anybody accept such an expensive card?
      - kuschku 8y ago
        That's exactly the problem. Why would any merchant pay 10x, even 50x more for a card than they pay for cash? If each customer had to pay extra depending on their method of payment — 0.2% for cash, 0.125% for EC, 2% for MasterCard, 7% for VISA — no one would use credit cards anymore. Especially for big purchases. Reality is, as long as merchants can not give cash-only discounts, CC owners leech off of the cash payers.
1ba9115454 8y ago
I don't think it's that Germans want to only use cash, I think it's more that the payment systems in Germany are not great. Lot's of bars/beer gardens/shops can't take cards. German banks seem to use their own system called EC card which is not usable anywhere else in the world. You can't use an EC card to buy stuff online you have to make a bank transfer.
- PinguTS 8y ago
  EC/Maestro works anywhere in Europe and in most parts of the world. It even works in US at the ATM.
  - harperlee 8y ago
    But the converse is not true; when europeans go to Germany they can't pay with cards that are normally accepted elsewhere. That is a major nuisance.
    - rndgermandude 8y ago
      Really? When you can pay with a card, you can pay by either EC (girocard; German thing, or maestro by mastercard, 500-600 million such cards in circulation worldwide) or a regular credit/debit card (Visa, Mastercard, etc) almost always, and often stuff like Cirrus/VisaPlus is accepted too. That's a wide variety of options? What other major payment systems are missing?
      - harperlee 8y ago
        Look, I'm speaking from personal experience only, but due to work needs I travel almost every week to Frankfurt (purportedly the financial capital of Europe) with an amex, a visa and a mastercard; and each time I pick a taxi or I go to a restaurant there is about a 50% chance they do not take anything but EC Karte, or Cash only. It is so annoying that at work we have a running Splitwise group of about 25 people because always someone does not bring enough cash on them, only some spare change from last day plus all the usual cards. This is something that I have not suffered in UK, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Belgium, Louxembourg, France, Italy or Sweden. So I think German is an outlier here, and in a bad way. It is not the worst problem in the world; I just said it is annoying.
BjoernKW 8y ago
While many people claim to be using cash for privacy reasons the same people often are absolutely fine with using a digital loyalty card called Payback (I'm not making this up. This is the actual name ...), which is widely used in Germany. So, I suppose this is not so much about privacy at all but rather about laziness or stubbornness.
- deleted 8y ago
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- rndgermandude 8y ago
  It also seems to be fear of losing money. Most of my family use mostly cash, because as they say they don't trust shops to keep their card info secure and fear that "some Russians will steal their money". Payback, however, cannot be abused to steal your money, so even my tech adverse grandma had one when she was still alive because "not having one is like leaving money on the street".
  - BjoernKW 8y ago
    Yes, the Weimar Republic and its runaway inflation problem is often cited as a cause of this. However, most people who actually lived through that are dead by now. I find it baffling that for some reason this still seems to be such a deeply ingrained aspect of German national identity.
    - rndgermandude 8y ago
      Well, it's something that was "thought" by the older generation to the younger generations. My grandparents grew up post WWI in the Weimar Republic and then lived through WWII, had to repeatedly flee, losing most of their possession because of it. Other families had the same experience, or lost their stuff due to bombings etc. That heavily informed their decision till the day they died, and of course also to some extent influenced/influences my parents' behavior, which in turn influences my and my siblings' behavior to this day. I'm not saying it's rational, but it's very human still.
- 8y ago
TulliusCicero 8y ago
Yeah and it's obnoxious as hell. When I moved to Munich from the bay area, suddenly having to actively manage cash and coins on a daily basis felt like I'd stepped through a portal to a few decades ago. So many places being cash-only is very much "WHAT YEAR IS IT??" Some Germans defend it as "well Germans just prefer their privacy" but they still sign up for loyalty card programs and they are adopting cards for payment, just very slowly for how otherwise-developed they are. This isn't really a stance borne out of principled concerns, it comes from a general skepticism/paranoia of consumer technology/innovations. I see the same thing with how many German institutions still rely on mailing physical letters whereas the equivalent American ones switched to emails a decade+ ago. For example, the Grundschule my son will start at next year needed to tell us about an appointment. Did they use an email, perhaps one they gathered from an earlier appointment we'd had there? Of course not, they mailed a letter, a letter that didn't come until the day of the appointment, which they then berated my wife on the phone for missing. Other examples: to create an online account for my health insurance provider, they sent me a code to confirm the account...using an actual letter for the code. Same deal for recharging an Aldi-Talk SIM, you need to have them mail a letter to your address, and then and only then may you pay (via bank transfer). And the websites I've looked at for the Grundschulen (elementary schools) look like they were made by a high schooler in 2006, whereas when I look at ones for school districts for my nephews and nieces in the states, they actually appear reasonably modern. Or when I got photos from people in my son's kindergarten, only one person did sending them over a photo/file-sharing service, the others were a flash drive, a CD, many emails with one or more photos attached, and also someone just handing me their whole camera. tl;dr Germany is surprisingly backwards when it comes to consumer technology
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  "Yeah and it's obnoxious as hell. When I moved to Munich from the bay area, suddenly having to actively manage cash and coins on a daily basis felt like I'd stepped through a portal to a few decades ago. So many places being cash-only is very much "WHAT YEAR IS IT??" " We wonder the same thing about US credit cards, that just now switched to Chip & Signature It's not exactly a new concept, considering that the first smart cards for banking purposes were issued in France in 1986[1] Those that sit in glass houses... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV
antris 8y ago
As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. It's a lesson that I wish the rest of the world had had as well.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. The Stasi (state security service) also spied a lot on the citizens. Do not forget that the GDR only ceased to exist in 1990.
- John_KZ 8y ago
  Many countries in Europe also faced fascist governments, military coups and oppressive regimes in the last 50-100 years. This leads to a much better understanding on how personal information can be lethal. And it's not just some distant thought, rejected as impossible to happen again. It happened in the past, and given the opportunity, it will happen again.
- teamhappy 8y ago
  Census data in particular. Edwin Black wrote a book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
- thomascarney 8y ago
  Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies, rather than the privacy of its citizens per say.
  - no_identd 8y ago
    >Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. >Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. You left out the part where persons wishing to access those government records need to provide justification, a fee, and the access gets logged. Unfortunately, government employees accessing those records aren't as tightly regulated (although it's gotten better, iirc). So no, it has nothing to do with some intention of 'making life difficult for tech companies'.
beagle3 8y ago
The article is unashamedly biased in favor of electronic transactions. It ignores (or I missed it) dissenting voices in Sweden[0], and quotes Ken Rogoff about buying apartments in cash (and thus avoiding tax), which doesn't sound applicable to Germany which has a precise, essentially authoritative real estate registry system (that is, if your home is not registered to you in the registry, it is not YOUR home). Some countries require you to list the transaction price/details, with proof of it is not within the norm; I don't know if that is required or not in Germany, but such a requirement will do more against property value taxation fraud than a cashless society. It also seems to mention but downplay the part history plays here; Every german has friend or family with stories about the abuse of power in east germany (and older ones in Nazi germany as well). It's a question of "when", not "if" centrally controlled electronic cash will be abused - precedents already exist - and the collective German memory is still too strong to ignore the implications (the way the rest of the western world evidently does ignore). [0] http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43645676 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43645676
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  > Some countries require you to list the transaction price/details, with proof of it is not within the norm; I don't know if that is required or not in Germany, There's the real estate sales tax that's a percentage of the sale. You're also required to have a notary set up the whole procedure (to make sure that everybody gets precisely what was agreed upon, or to initiate a rollback - there's about 0 chance that somebody goes out of the transaction without getting what is theirs) who is on the hook for making sure that everything fits together.
therealmarv 8y ago
In Germany (or better to say German banks) it's still common to not get any instant phone notification on card payments. In many other EU countries it's common to get at least SMS. Actually I also distrust systems where you need to verify your card payments at the end of the month.
throwayawnotime 8y ago
Germany knows about Sweden: cashless => negative interest rates => stealth internal devaluation
jessaustin 8y ago
I'm confused. Yesterday I learned that Japan had too much cash. TIL Germany has too much cash. I hear on a regular basis that USA has too much cash, and don't get them started on the checks... Where on earth is it, that fortunate land in which the happy people have gotten rid of their cash? Surely their economy is booming, and everyone is happy to have sacrificed the advantages of cash so as to optimize that fundamentally important transaction: hipsters buying overpriced coffee-related beverages without tipping.
perlgeek 8y ago
Cash is fast. Traditional direct debit payment takes around 20 seconds or so. An experienced cashier is much faster in giving you your change if you pay cash. There is a newish "instant" payment with NFC chips, that doesn't require a PIN or a signature if you pay less than 20 €. It's much faster (maybe 5 seconds?), but it's not available everywhere yet. Certainly not at shops where you typically only spend small amounts (bakery, small Asian fast-food places etc.).
- davidivadavid 8y ago
  From what I can see, contactless payment is much more common in North America, and the limits are higher (< $100 in Canada, IIRC).
- leokennis 8y ago
  Really? Reeaallly? When not paying contactless (which takes less than 5 seconds like you mentioned), paying by debit card takes 6 seconds: enter card, mash 4 number PIN, push OK. And after that 0 seconds spent on change, fumbling with bills and coins etc. What I noticed in Germany though, is that many store clerks insist on taking your card, then putting it in the machine, handing it to you, then take it back from you when you’ve entered the PIN. Yes, if you do it 1920’s style then it takes longer than a cash transaction...
  - perlgeek 8y ago
    > Really? Reeaallly? Yes, unfortunately. I don't know if many shops have shitty Internet connection (sometimes the card reader even displays "ISDN dialup" in the status field) and/or the online clearing takes so long, but it really is annoyingly slow most of the time.
  - kara_jade 8y ago
    > What I noticed in Germany though, is that many store clerks insist on taking your card... That's a service. You'd be surprised how many people are unable to insert the card into the reader correctly.
- adrianparsons 8y ago
matthiasl 8y ago
I wonder how well you could track cash if you wanted to. ATMs could OCR and log the serial numbers of bills they dispense, and they obviously know who they're dispensing to. Banks could do the same with incoming cash at the end of the business day. The tracking would be weaker than with electronic payments since some notes will be re-used after being given as change, but it'd still be useful to a government that wants to track its population.
- psadri 8y ago
  I wonder what would happen if you took a black marker to the serial numbers? Perhaps modern bills have other means of encoding their serial numbers.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - liveoneggs 8y ago
    they are probably printed with special inks, requiring a special marker to fool magnetic-scanning or somesuch. It would also be easy to reject the validity/authenticity of paper money with an illegible serial number.
- icebraining 8y ago
  They could require commercial POS systems to include that too.
- personlurking 8y ago
  An old site for tracking where your dollar came from and where it has been since it left your hands. https://www.wheresgeorge.com https://www.wheresgeorge.com Example: https://www.wheresgeorge.com/b:QZHjxdYnJ&entry=16 https://www.wheresgeorge.com/b:QZHjxdYnJ&entry=16
- brohee 8y ago
  It is somewhat tracked, new bills fresh from an ATM have been used to help catch a serial killer in England. The banknote recovered was passed to the Bank of England, who were asked to trace where it was issued. Detectives learnt it had been sent from its printing works to the Leeds branch of the Bank of England, just a few days before the murder. https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/yorkshire-ripper-peter-sutcliffe-manchester-14385884 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...
aswanson 8y ago
Conversely, I recall social trust being so high in Switzerland than when we comes at a restaurant, my coworker just handed the waiter a business card, and he took the name down to bill the company our tab.
- soziawa 8y ago
  Over the years I have seen multiple people forget their wallet and then someone else pay for them and give them their address so they can bring the money later.
- zhdc1 8y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if there's already an agreement in place between that restaurant and your company. I agree that social trust is very high in Switzerland, but I don't know if it's that high (at least, I've never seen someone pay over here with a business card).
- woobar 8y ago
  Restaurants at the hotels in US also demonstrate this trust. You just write your name and room number on a receipt and leave. They don't ask for any proof of staying in the hotel.
zhdc1 8y ago
In my experience, it has little to do with public trust and a lot to do with payment processor fees and an older population (which includes middle aged and older shop owners) having an aversion to paying in anything other than cash. A cashless bakery opened up here recently, and it was a big enough deal to make several newspapers.
- lars_francke 8y ago
  As a fellow german I couldn't agree more. I only have anecdotal evidence (but to be fair I didn't see any evidence in the article either that this cash-focus in Germany is really based on privacy/trust issues) but I have never heard anyone use cash for privacy/trust reasons. You're looked at funny if you want to pay small amounts by card here. Part of the reason I think where historically high costs attached to credit card payments but the girocard system has been pretty cheap all along. Another issue I see is that it sometimes takes ages for the machines to do their thing. I've been wondering for a while what the reason could be when using PINs. When I lived in Switzerland I remember things working like this at a supermarket: 1) You put all your stuff on the belt at the register 2) While your stuff is being scanned you can already put your card in the machine, enter your PIN and press okay once 3) When everything's scanned you only have to press ok again and the transaction is finished In Germany it's different. You first have to wait for the whole scanning/entering into the register process to be finished before you can even put your card in the machine. Hoping contactless payment will make this easier.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > I only have anecdotal evidence (but to be fair I didn't see any evidence in the article either that this cash-focus in Germany is really based on privacy/trust issues) but I have never heard anyone use cash for privacy/trust reasons. I know quite some in Germany (and see myself among them). "Ironically" I observe that the people who are most vocally privacy-minded (also concerning cash) - at least in my cicrcle - often have studied computer science (or a related subject) or are at least very interested in computer science topics, while the people who argue very vocally that paying via credit card/NFC/... is so much more convenient are not the kind of people who are very interested in computer science topics.
OhHeyItsE 8y ago
This is good for Bitcoin. [...right?]
mpweiher 8y ago
It's not a proxy, it's real. German retailers have "discount cards", which give you a little off in return for the ability to use your data. If you pay with a card, they don't need to do that, they already have your info, what you bought, when etc. No thanks, I want my relationship with shops to be simple: I give you money, you give me product. And of course cash has the added benefit of being tangible. It's in your wallet, then it's not. Spending more means taking out more bills, or bigger bills.
- forinti 8y ago
  >> I give you money, you give me product. What a concept. I refuse to use the card system for public transportation in my town because they will only give you a card in exchange for your personal data. I find it deplorable.
  - mpweiher 8y ago
    Same here. I also made sure to buy + top up my oyster card with cash exclusively while I lived London.
  - hycaria 8y ago
    Yeah, booo to cities looking to optimize affluence and patterns, hopefully for more efficient lines and service, with the help of consumer data and recurring habits, or offering convenient service as in recovering lost cards. Booo !
    - bmomb 8y ago
      Do you really need to track every time that each individual move to do that?
      - abandonliberty 8y ago
        What alternative measures would you propose for tracking volumes and trips?
rb808 8y ago
I know a few small business owners in Europe and they all prefer cash as a way to avoid the hefty sales & income taxes. They want cash sales, pay some employees under the table, do their own spending in cash - even new cars and property. The last thing anyone wants is an electronic record of money going in and out. So yes its privacy but not in the way the article talks about.
- krageon 8y ago
  There is definitely a subsection of small business owners that operate that way (partially), but the overwhelming majority of cash flow is aboveboard (you can report cash to the tax authority, and yes this also happens) in my experience. To give you another anecdotal piece of data.
vrex 8y ago
I noticed this is very weird but I'm young (in my early 20s) and I only use my card to withdraw money from the ATM. Wherever I go, if it is in a restaurant, a store or the pharmacy I only pay in cash. For me personally it has not just something to do with privacy, for me cash is more real than my debit card. When I shop with cash I spend less money, I know how much money I have to spend the next X days etc. I can never imagine myself not using cash
xstartup 8y ago
This seems to be an odd case. At one place we get to hear about "GDPR" and how it's "delayed gratification", "society first". Then there is this obsession with cash. Where "society first" does not apply. Cashless society can easily track terrorist funding, corruption, illegitimate cash dealings used in trafficking, drug deals etc... This kinda seems hypocritical to me. No wonder Germany is the largest human trafficking country.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > At one place we get to hear about "GDPR" and how it's "delayed gratification", "society first". > Then there is this obsession with cash. Where "society first" does not apply. Both are not about "society first" (and I have never heard this term with respect to GDPR), but "privacy first".
georgeecollins 8y ago
Studies show that you tend to be more frugle when you spend in cash. There is a reason why casinos give you chips. I always try to use cash when I can.
no_identd 8y ago
Having read most of the comments here, I come to the conclusion that y'all need to start comprehending the difference between 'cash' and 'bank money', and no, I don't mean the conspiracy theory laden bullshit spread around by the most terrible Zeitgeist movies. I mean the real deal. Here, a paper on it: http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue80/Huber80.pdf http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue80/Huber80.pdf Huber, Joseph - Split-circuit reserve banking - functioning, dysfunctions and future perspectives Abstract: "This paper first provides a detailed outline of how the present money system works. This then serves as a backdrop to discuss a number of orthodox fallacies and heterodox flaws in money theory, followed by a summary of the dysfunctions of split-circuit reserve banking and a brief outlook on the perspective of a single-circuit sovereign money system." Keywords; monetary economics, money theory, credit creation, banking theory, fractional reserve banking, monetary policy, monetary reform One may find comments on the paper here: https://rwer.wordpress.com/comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80/ https://rwer.wordpress.com/comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80/ I'll quote part of the paper here, and I'd strongly recommend reading all of it if you want to have any understanding of modern economics at all: "[...] Modern money is non-cash As far as traditional solid cash (banknotes and coins) is still in use, cash circulation represents a third circuit. In contrast to precious-metal coins, and like reserves, cash is token fiat money today. But rather than circulating between central bank accounts (reserves) or between bank accounts (bankmoney), traditional solid cash circulates from hand to hand in public circulation, without needing banks, or central banks respectively, as a trusted third party. Regarding the future of money, modern digital cash based on some form of blockchain technology might become a modern equivalent of traditional cash (notwithstanding the question of who will issue and control the stock of such digital currency). In any case, in a basically cashless money system based on money-on-account, traditional cash is no longer of defining relevance. Within the frame of reserve banking, cash and money-on-account must not be confused as is done by negligent speak, and even by official accounting standards.¹ At source, modern money is non-cash, a credit entry into a respective account. In the split-circuit structure, this applies to both bankmoney and central bank money. Traditional solid cash (coins, notes) has become a residual technical subset of the bankmoney in circulation, withdrawn from or exchanged back into a bank giro account. Since about the 1920 – 60s, when bankmoney was definitely driving out solid cash in the course of the general dissemination of cashless payment practices, cash has no longer been constitutive of the money system. Cash now represents about 3 – 15% of the stock of money (M1), depending on the country, and a continued declining share in the long run. When referring to broad money aggregates (M2/3/4 which include, for example, deposit savings and money market fund shares) cash amounts to only 2 – 10%. Accordingly, cash can now largely be excluded from monetary system analysis (in spite of its present role as an effective hindrance to misguided negative interest rate policies of central banks). The means of payment that dominates everything today is bankmoney with its share of 90 – 98% in the entire money supply. [...] --- ¹ Cf. Financial Accounting Standards Board: FASB Accounting Standards Codification, Topic 305-2011, Cash and Cash Equivalents. The same in US GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). For a critical assessment see Schemmann, Michael. 2012. Accounting Perversion in Bank Financial Statements. The Root Cause of Financial Crises, IICPA Publications. [...] [...]"
birdmanjeremy 8y ago
Portugal is the lowest on the list. In my experience, it's also heavily biased towards cash, at least compared to the US. Perhaps the "value in Euros" is skewed because it's cheaper in Portugal than Germany?
expertentipp 8y ago
...while loyalty cards, points, and systems are thriving... old population and retailers unwilling to take over the transactions fees. Dont’t make any philosophies out of it. The same reasons why the internet is so shit in this country.

138 points by ShadowFaxSam 8y ago

In my experience some Germans are quite skeptical about technology when it comes to money. Cash is so simple, nothing can go wrong. Cash just works - always. Privacy is more of a bonus point. It's used as an argument a lot but I think Germans are so used to carry cash, it's just not perceived as a major annoyance.

ShadowFaxSam 8y ago

>Yet for many Germans, the convenience of electronic payment is beside the point. Rather, the use of cash has, to a surprising extent, become a proxy for profound concerns about trust, privacy, and the role of the state. I've been banging my head against the table since moving to Germany about the lack of convenience with cash payments and the need to constantly visit the ATM. Yet the economy is doing just fine.

raverbashing 8y ago
Yes, it is annoying. At least they have their money purses in restaurants and give you change in an instant instead of fumbling it like in other places. They are as efficient as cash allows it to be. (And most places that cards only take German cards)
TulliusCicero 8y ago
Germany has a bunch of things going for it, and a bunch of things against. This one of the "against" things, but I don't think it's a huge factor.
CogitoCogito 8y ago
Personally I find the push in Sweden to only use card much more annoying. Cash tends to fail much more rarely for me than cards. Of course there's no reason why they can't coexist but since much of the official point of cashless is tracking, cash will always be bad for those pushing for increased surveillance. Incidentally when I lived in Berlin I used to only use cash and I never found it a bother. My bank had ATMs in many places and it really wasn't very hard to keep cash around. I've always found it a little odd when people talk about ATMs as being inconvenient when historically they're probably as convenient as they've ever been. Of course it is always easier not to have to go to an ATM, but today it really isn't that hard unless you have some tiny ATM network. Regardless, having both cash and cashless is definitely the best of both worlds. Convenience, redundancy, autonomy. I wish people would stop unnecessarily view the two methods as incompatible when they complement each other so well.
- chatmasta 8y ago
  I don’t think the view is that they are incompatible with each other, but rather that cash is incompatible with the motives of payment processors and banks.
  - petre 8y ago
    Add to that the motives of state institutions who can freely put their fingers in the honey jar (your bank account).
- michaelt 8y ago
  If the benefit of cashless is that you don't have to carry around a pocket full of cash, they're incompatible in the sense that if you use both, you lose that benefit.
  - CogitoCogito 8y ago
    If a store takes cash and card why do you need to carry cash? There is no incompatibility whatsoever. Having both only gives you more options.
- mrweasel 8y ago
  >Cash tends to fail much more rarely for me than cards. It's the same in Denmark. The payment processing networks are really stable, just not stable enough to eliminate or not always carry enough cash to pay for groceries. When payment processing have 100% uptime for five years, then maybe we can debate eliminating cash in some places.
- kungtotte 8y ago
  There's also the security angle. You can't rob a cashless place of business. This is the official reason given by many businesses here in Sweden as to why they're going cashless, and many who don't go cashless use lockbox systems where the cashier can't access the cash at all. The machine dispenses correct change as part of a transaction, but otherwise it's locked tight. I'd be interested to see any data collected regarding this; whether or not armed robbery against things like restaurants and grocery stores has decreased after the move to cashless.
kara_jade 8y ago
How exactly is it inconvenient? I can't really think of anything. For example, proponents of cashless payments often like to claim that paying with cash takes more time than paying with a card, but the opposite is true. [1] And if you have "the need to constantly visit the ATM", then perhaps it would be a good idea to withdraw more money to last you longer? My bank actually doesn't allow withdrawals of less than 50 Euros, but even before that was introduced I simply withdrew the money I needed for a month at the beginning of a month -- and that was it. [1] http://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/geld-ausgeben/was-ist-schneller-bargeld-oder-kartenzahlung-14546519.html?printPagedArticle=true http://www.faz.net/aktuell/finanzen/meine-finanzen/geld-ausg... (German)
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  How is cash inconvenient? Well: - instead of just going to a shop, I now need to go to a bank, and then to a shop - I mean that's pretty obviously and undeniably less convenient for a start - I have to carry a lot of little bits of valuable paper around with me - enough for an entire month of expenses in your opinion! - when I pay I have to wait for them to count the money, gather up the change, return the change, which I then have to count, compared to just tapping my card and going - I get no protections such as insurance for my purchases I can't how understand how anyone can argue cash is more convenient! And how can you possibly argue cash is faster? Paying by card takes 0.5 seconds - I don't have to even look at what I'm doing I just wave my card and go. Your articles talks about arcane things like inserting your card, paper printouts, signing with a pen - you haven't needed to do that with cards for a decade or more.
  - mpweiher 8y ago
    > I now need to go to a bank, and then to a shop Hmmm...if you go to a bank to withdraw cash every tine you go to a shop I could see your point, but I would suggest that "you're holding it wrong". > I have to carry a lot of little bits of valuable paper around with me Which are limited in terms of risk, whereas a card can withdraw...whatever your limit. Carrying the bits of paper (and coins) has the big benefit of being tangible, that is we get to use all our senses to understand something otherwise very abstract. > when I pay I have to wait [..] Err...sorry, cash transactions are invariably much quicker than card transactions around here. > I get no protections such as insurance You mean you don't have ridiculous services bundled together for no reason whatsoever. > I can't how understand how anyone can argue cash is more convenient! And I can't understand how anyone can argue that cards are more convenient, when they clearly are not. >And how can you possibly argue cash is faster? Paying by card takes 0.5 seconds - Where? Around here, card transactions always take longer. > arcane things like inserting your card, paper printouts, signing with a pen [..] decade or more. Actually, having to sign on EC payments has become a thing recently, it used to be exclusively PIN. And sometimes it's PIN, sometimes it's signature, in the same shop, with the same card. They payment processor seems to choose by some randomized algorithm.
tnolet 8y ago
I moved from the Netherlands (one of the most cashless countries in Europe) to Berlin 3 years ago. I invite anyone doubting the convenience of cards, specifically contacless ones, over cash to join me for a regular morning of shopping groceries in Berlin and then in my hometown in NL. You will be cured.
- mpfundstein 8y ago
  i totally agree. I live in Amsterdam since 7 years and everytime I visit my family in Munich , I am surprised a backwards they are. And how inconvenient cash is.

PinguTS 8y ago

Cash is cool. Cash is anonymously. Cash is independent from any payment processor. Cash has no payment fees. Cash does not require power, so it is somehow environment friendly. Cash is just cool.

philfrasty 8y ago
"Cash has no payment fees" This is simply not true. Take a business for example: 1.) have a cashbox (or multiple) 2.) guard cashbox 3.) every evening count money in cashbox 4.) hope the cash you took in is still in the cashbox 5.) if not 4) --> accounting nightmare + fire employee 6.) bring cash to bank
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Only for businesses that handle large volumes of cash. For person-to-person transactions, cash is the way to go.
  - harperlee 8y ago
    ATM withdrawal is not generally free; both the ATM network and your bank can charge fees for withdrawing money. At least in Spain this is true; I think it is generally true at least lso with French banks. Withdrawing abroad is normally with fees. EDIT: Downvotes in HN are not a dissenting mechanism; they are there to bury inappropriate/misleading/etc. comments (not that I particularly care, but it seems a proper opportunity to clarify a misconception).
    - richardknop 8y ago
      In a lot of Europe it is free.
      - aequitas 8y ago
        Just as free as free shipping, at the end of the day you pay for it someway, like (higher) banking fees, cost for (extra) card, reduced interest rates, etc.

coinerone 8y ago

At least, Germany is not as bad as Japan!

Grollicus 8y ago

Americans always cry about taxes but then they pay an 8% premium on everything to their payment processor. As long as the money doesn't go to the state its okay, right?

dmurray 8y ago
But they get 1.5% cash back!
mnx 8y ago
8%? What? That can't be true.
- kuschku 8y ago
  Visa and MasterCard hover around 2-3%, but AMEX often goes up to 7-8% for certain goods, yes. Credit cards are a massive cost to society and should be replaced.
  - therealmarv 8y ago
    in USA? I don't believe. In EU the costs on debit cards for the merchant is about 1-1.5% and on credit cards a little higher, 1-2%. This are the real numbers. If you pay more you are getting screwed.
  - mnx 8y ago
    Ok, so AMEX is unreasonably expensive. That 2-3% is exactly what I expect - maybe even a little lower, esp. for bigger merchants. Why would anybody accept such an expensive card?
    - kuschku 8y ago
      That's exactly the problem. Why would any merchant pay 10x, even 50x more for a card than they pay for cash? If each customer had to pay extra depending on their method of payment — 0.2% for cash, 0.125% for EC, 2% for MasterCard, 7% for VISA — no one would use credit cards anymore. Especially for big purchases. Reality is, as long as merchants can not give cash-only discounts, CC owners leech off of the cash payers.

1ba9115454 8y ago

I don't think it's that Germans want to only use cash, I think it's more that the payment systems in Germany are not great. Lot's of bars/beer gardens/shops can't take cards. German banks seem to use their own system called EC card which is not usable anywhere else in the world. You can't use an EC card to buy stuff online you have to make a bank transfer.

PinguTS 8y ago
EC/Maestro works anywhere in Europe and in most parts of the world. It even works in US at the ATM.
- harperlee 8y ago
  But the converse is not true; when europeans go to Germany they can't pay with cards that are normally accepted elsewhere. That is a major nuisance.
  - rndgermandude 8y ago
    Really? When you can pay with a card, you can pay by either EC (girocard; German thing, or maestro by mastercard, 500-600 million such cards in circulation worldwide) or a regular credit/debit card (Visa, Mastercard, etc) almost always, and often stuff like Cirrus/VisaPlus is accepted too. That's a wide variety of options? What other major payment systems are missing?
    - harperlee 8y ago
      Look, I'm speaking from personal experience only, but due to work needs I travel almost every week to Frankfurt (purportedly the financial capital of Europe) with an amex, a visa and a mastercard; and each time I pick a taxi or I go to a restaurant there is about a 50% chance they do not take anything but EC Karte, or Cash only. It is so annoying that at work we have a running Splitwise group of about 25 people because always someone does not bring enough cash on them, only some spare change from last day plus all the usual cards. This is something that I have not suffered in UK, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland, Belgium, Louxembourg, France, Italy or Sweden. So I think German is an outlier here, and in a bad way. It is not the worst problem in the world; I just said it is annoying.

BjoernKW 8y ago

While many people claim to be using cash for privacy reasons the same people often are absolutely fine with using a digital loyalty card called Payback (I'm not making this up. This is the actual name ...), which is widely used in Germany. So, I suppose this is not so much about privacy at all but rather about laziness or stubbornness.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rndgermandude 8y ago
It also seems to be fear of losing money. Most of my family use mostly cash, because as they say they don't trust shops to keep their card info secure and fear that "some Russians will steal their money". Payback, however, cannot be abused to steal your money, so even my tech adverse grandma had one when she was still alive because "not having one is like leaving money on the street".
- BjoernKW 8y ago
  Yes, the Weimar Republic and its runaway inflation problem is often cited as a cause of this. However, most people who actually lived through that are dead by now. I find it baffling that for some reason this still seems to be such a deeply ingrained aspect of German national identity.
  - rndgermandude 8y ago
    Well, it's something that was "thought" by the older generation to the younger generations. My grandparents grew up post WWI in the Weimar Republic and then lived through WWII, had to repeatedly flee, losing most of their possession because of it. Other families had the same experience, or lost their stuff due to bombings etc. That heavily informed their decision till the day they died, and of course also to some extent influenced/influences my parents' behavior, which in turn influences my and my siblings' behavior to this day. I'm not saying it's rational, but it's very human still.
8y ago

TulliusCicero 8y ago

Yeah and it's obnoxious as hell. When I moved to Munich from the bay area, suddenly having to actively manage cash and coins on a daily basis felt like I'd stepped through a portal to a few decades ago. So many places being cash-only is very much "WHAT YEAR IS IT??" Some Germans defend it as "well Germans just prefer their privacy" but they still sign up for loyalty card programs and they are adopting cards for payment, just very slowly for how otherwise-developed they are. This isn't really a stance borne out of principled concerns, it comes from a general skepticism/paranoia of consumer technology/innovations. I see the same thing with how many German institutions still rely on mailing physical letters whereas the equivalent American ones switched to emails a decade+ ago. For example, the Grundschule my son will start at next year needed to tell us about an appointment. Did they use an email, perhaps one they gathered from an earlier appointment we'd had there? Of course not, they mailed a letter, a letter that didn't come until the day of the appointment, which they then berated my wife on the phone for missing. Other examples: to create an online account for my health insurance provider, they sent me a code to confirm the account...using an actual letter for the code. Same deal for recharging an Aldi-Talk SIM, you need to have them mail a letter to your address, and then and only then may you pay (via bank transfer). And the websites I've looked at for the Grundschulen (elementary schools) look like they were made by a high schooler in 2006, whereas when I look at ones for school districts for my nephews and nieces in the states, they actually appear reasonably modern. Or when I got photos from people in my son's kindergarten, only one person did sending them over a photo/file-sharing service, the others were a flash drive, a CD, many emails with one or more photos attached, and also someone just handing me their whole camera. tl;dr Germany is surprisingly backwards when it comes to consumer technology

CaptainZapp 8y ago
"Yeah and it's obnoxious as hell. When I moved to Munich from the bay area, suddenly having to actively manage cash and coins on a daily basis felt like I'd stepped through a portal to a few decades ago. So many places being cash-only is very much "WHAT YEAR IS IT??" " We wonder the same thing about US credit cards, that just now switched to Chip & Signature It's not exactly a new concept, considering that the first smart cards for banking purposes were issued in France in 1986[1] Those that sit in glass houses... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMV

antris 8y ago

As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. It's a lesson that I wish the rest of the world had had as well.

wolfgke 8y ago
> As I understand it, German obsession with privacy and cash stems largely from WW2. Information that the government had about its citizens were used to round up Jews to put them in ghettos and concentration camps. The Stasi (state security service) also spied a lot on the citizens. Do not forget that the GDR only ceased to exist in 1990.
John_KZ 8y ago
Many countries in Europe also faced fascist governments, military coups and oppressive regimes in the last 50-100 years. This leads to a much better understanding on how personal information can be lethal. And it's not just some distant thought, rejected as impossible to happen again. It happened in the past, and given the opportunity, it will happen again.
teamhappy 8y ago
Census data in particular. Edwin Black wrote a book about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust
thomascarney 8y ago
Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. The German obsession with privacy has a LOT to do with making life difficult for tech companies, rather than the privacy of its citizens per say.
- no_identd 8y ago
  >Germany still requires that you register your residence, name, age and religion within two weeks of moving to a new place. >Often, you even have to provide proof from a landlord that you do live there. You left out the part where persons wishing to access those government records need to provide justification, a fee, and the access gets logged. Unfortunately, government employees accessing those records aren't as tightly regulated (although it's gotten better, iirc). So no, it has nothing to do with some intention of 'making life difficult for tech companies'.

beagle3 8y ago

The article is unashamedly biased in favor of electronic transactions. It ignores (or I missed it) dissenting voices in Sweden[0], and quotes Ken Rogoff about buying apartments in cash (and thus avoiding tax), which doesn't sound applicable to Germany which has a precise, essentially authoritative real estate registry system (that is, if your home is not registered to you in the registry, it is not YOUR home). Some countries require you to list the transaction price/details, with proof of it is not within the norm; I don't know if that is required or not in Germany, but such a requirement will do more against property value taxation fraud than a cashless society. It also seems to mention but downplay the part history plays here; Every german has friend or family with stories about the abuse of power in east germany (and older ones in Nazi germany as well). It's a question of "when", not "if" centrally controlled electronic cash will be abused - precedents already exist - and the collective German memory is still too strong to ignore the implications (the way the rest of the western world evidently does ignore). [0] http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43645676 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43645676

pgeorgi 8y ago
> Some countries require you to list the transaction price/details, with proof of it is not within the norm; I don't know if that is required or not in Germany, There's the real estate sales tax that's a percentage of the sale. You're also required to have a notary set up the whole procedure (to make sure that everybody gets precisely what was agreed upon, or to initiate a rollback - there's about 0 chance that somebody goes out of the transaction without getting what is theirs) who is on the hook for making sure that everything fits together.

therealmarv 8y ago

In Germany (or better to say German banks) it's still common to not get any instant phone notification on card payments. In many other EU countries it's common to get at least SMS. Actually I also distrust systems where you need to verify your card payments at the end of the month.

throwayawnotime 8y ago

Germany knows about Sweden: cashless => negative interest rates => stealth internal devaluation

jessaustin 8y ago

I'm confused. Yesterday I learned that Japan had too much cash. TIL Germany has too much cash. I hear on a regular basis that USA has too much cash, and don't get them started on the checks... Where on earth is it, that fortunate land in which the happy people have gotten rid of their cash? Surely their economy is booming, and everyone is happy to have sacrificed the advantages of cash so as to optimize that fundamentally important transaction: hipsters buying overpriced coffee-related beverages without tipping.

perlgeek 8y ago

Cash is fast. Traditional direct debit payment takes around 20 seconds or so. An experienced cashier is much faster in giving you your change if you pay cash. There is a newish "instant" payment with NFC chips, that doesn't require a PIN or a signature if you pay less than 20 €. It's much faster (maybe 5 seconds?), but it's not available everywhere yet. Certainly not at shops where you typically only spend small amounts (bakery, small Asian fast-food places etc.).

davidivadavid 8y ago
From what I can see, contactless payment is much more common in North America, and the limits are higher (< $100 in Canada, IIRC).
leokennis 8y ago
Really? Reeaallly? When not paying contactless (which takes less than 5 seconds like you mentioned), paying by debit card takes 6 seconds: enter card, mash 4 number PIN, push OK. And after that 0 seconds spent on change, fumbling with bills and coins etc. What I noticed in Germany though, is that many store clerks insist on taking your card, then putting it in the machine, handing it to you, then take it back from you when you’ve entered the PIN. Yes, if you do it 1920’s style then it takes longer than a cash transaction...
- perlgeek 8y ago
  > Really? Reeaallly? Yes, unfortunately. I don't know if many shops have shitty Internet connection (sometimes the card reader even displays "ISDN dialup" in the status field) and/or the online clearing takes so long, but it really is annoyingly slow most of the time.
- kara_jade 8y ago
  > What I noticed in Germany though, is that many store clerks insist on taking your card... That's a service. You'd be surprised how many people are unable to insert the card into the reader correctly.
adrianparsons 8y ago

matthiasl 8y ago

I wonder how well you could track cash if you wanted to. ATMs could OCR and log the serial numbers of bills they dispense, and they obviously know who they're dispensing to. Banks could do the same with incoming cash at the end of the business day. The tracking would be weaker than with electronic payments since some notes will be re-used after being given as change, but it'd still be useful to a government that wants to track its population.

psadri 8y ago
I wonder what would happen if you took a black marker to the serial numbers? Perhaps modern bills have other means of encoding their serial numbers.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- liveoneggs 8y ago
  they are probably printed with special inks, requiring a special marker to fool magnetic-scanning or somesuch. It would also be easy to reject the validity/authenticity of paper money with an illegible serial number.
icebraining 8y ago
They could require commercial POS systems to include that too.
personlurking 8y ago
An old site for tracking where your dollar came from and where it has been since it left your hands. https://www.wheresgeorge.com https://www.wheresgeorge.com Example: https://www.wheresgeorge.com/b:QZHjxdYnJ&entry=16 https://www.wheresgeorge.com/b:QZHjxdYnJ&entry=16
brohee 8y ago
It is somewhat tracked, new bills fresh from an ATM have been used to help catch a serial killer in England. The banknote recovered was passed to the Bank of England, who were asked to trace where it was issued. Detectives learnt it had been sent from its printing works to the Leeds branch of the Bank of England, just a few days before the murder. https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/yorkshire-ripper-peter-sutcliffe-manchester-14385884 https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...

aswanson 8y ago

Conversely, I recall social trust being so high in Switzerland than when we comes at a restaurant, my coworker just handed the waiter a business card, and he took the name down to bill the company our tab.

soziawa 8y ago
Over the years I have seen multiple people forget their wallet and then someone else pay for them and give them their address so they can bring the money later.
zhdc1 8y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if there's already an agreement in place between that restaurant and your company. I agree that social trust is very high in Switzerland, but I don't know if it's that high (at least, I've never seen someone pay over here with a business card).
woobar 8y ago
Restaurants at the hotels in US also demonstrate this trust. You just write your name and room number on a receipt and leave. They don't ask for any proof of staying in the hotel.

zhdc1 8y ago

In my experience, it has little to do with public trust and a lot to do with payment processor fees and an older population (which includes middle aged and older shop owners) having an aversion to paying in anything other than cash. A cashless bakery opened up here recently, and it was a big enough deal to make several newspapers.

lars_francke 8y ago
As a fellow german I couldn't agree more. I only have anecdotal evidence (but to be fair I didn't see any evidence in the article either that this cash-focus in Germany is really based on privacy/trust issues) but I have never heard anyone use cash for privacy/trust reasons. You're looked at funny if you want to pay small amounts by card here. Part of the reason I think where historically high costs attached to credit card payments but the girocard system has been pretty cheap all along. Another issue I see is that it sometimes takes ages for the machines to do their thing. I've been wondering for a while what the reason could be when using PINs. When I lived in Switzerland I remember things working like this at a supermarket: 1) You put all your stuff on the belt at the register 2) While your stuff is being scanned you can already put your card in the machine, enter your PIN and press okay once 3) When everything's scanned you only have to press ok again and the transaction is finished In Germany it's different. You first have to wait for the whole scanning/entering into the register process to be finished before you can even put your card in the machine. Hoping contactless payment will make this easier.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > I only have anecdotal evidence (but to be fair I didn't see any evidence in the article either that this cash-focus in Germany is really based on privacy/trust issues) but I have never heard anyone use cash for privacy/trust reasons. I know quite some in Germany (and see myself among them). "Ironically" I observe that the people who are most vocally privacy-minded (also concerning cash) - at least in my cicrcle - often have studied computer science (or a related subject) or are at least very interested in computer science topics, while the people who argue very vocally that paying via credit card/NFC/... is so much more convenient are not the kind of people who are very interested in computer science topics.

OhHeyItsE 8y ago

This is good for Bitcoin. [...right?]

mpweiher 8y ago

It's not a proxy, it's real. German retailers have "discount cards", which give you a little off in return for the ability to use your data. If you pay with a card, they don't need to do that, they already have your info, what you bought, when etc. No thanks, I want my relationship with shops to be simple: I give you money, you give me product. And of course cash has the added benefit of being tangible. It's in your wallet, then it's not. Spending more means taking out more bills, or bigger bills.

forinti 8y ago
>> I give you money, you give me product. What a concept. I refuse to use the card system for public transportation in my town because they will only give you a card in exchange for your personal data. I find it deplorable.
- mpweiher 8y ago
  Same here. I also made sure to buy + top up my oyster card with cash exclusively while I lived London.
- hycaria 8y ago
  Yeah, booo to cities looking to optimize affluence and patterns, hopefully for more efficient lines and service, with the help of consumer data and recurring habits, or offering convenient service as in recovering lost cards. Booo !
  - bmomb 8y ago
    Do you really need to track every time that each individual move to do that?
    - abandonliberty 8y ago
      What alternative measures would you propose for tracking volumes and trips?

rb808 8y ago

I know a few small business owners in Europe and they all prefer cash as a way to avoid the hefty sales & income taxes. They want cash sales, pay some employees under the table, do their own spending in cash - even new cars and property. The last thing anyone wants is an electronic record of money going in and out. So yes its privacy but not in the way the article talks about.

krageon 8y ago
There is definitely a subsection of small business owners that operate that way (partially), but the overwhelming majority of cash flow is aboveboard (you can report cash to the tax authority, and yes this also happens) in my experience. To give you another anecdotal piece of data.

vrex 8y ago

I noticed this is very weird but I'm young (in my early 20s) and I only use my card to withdraw money from the ATM. Wherever I go, if it is in a restaurant, a store or the pharmacy I only pay in cash. For me personally it has not just something to do with privacy, for me cash is more real than my debit card. When I shop with cash I spend less money, I know how much money I have to spend the next X days etc. I can never imagine myself not using cash

xstartup 8y ago

This seems to be an odd case. At one place we get to hear about "GDPR" and how it's "delayed gratification", "society first". Then there is this obsession with cash. Where "society first" does not apply. Cashless society can easily track terrorist funding, corruption, illegitimate cash dealings used in trafficking, drug deals etc... This kinda seems hypocritical to me. No wonder Germany is the largest human trafficking country.

wolfgke 8y ago
> At one place we get to hear about "GDPR" and how it's "delayed gratification", "society first". > Then there is this obsession with cash. Where "society first" does not apply. Both are not about "society first" (and I have never heard this term with respect to GDPR), but "privacy first".

georgeecollins 8y ago

Studies show that you tend to be more frugle when you spend in cash. There is a reason why casinos give you chips. I always try to use cash when I can.

no_identd 8y ago

Having read most of the comments here, I come to the conclusion that y'all need to start comprehending the difference between 'cash' and 'bank money', and no, I don't mean the conspiracy theory laden bullshit spread around by the most terrible Zeitgeist movies. I mean the real deal. Here, a paper on it: http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue80/Huber80.pdf http://www.paecon.net/PAEReview/issue80/Huber80.pdf Huber, Joseph - Split-circuit reserve banking - functioning, dysfunctions and future perspectives Abstract: "This paper first provides a detailed outline of how the present money system works. This then serves as a backdrop to discuss a number of orthodox fallacies and heterodox flaws in money theory, followed by a summary of the dysfunctions of split-circuit reserve banking and a brief outlook on the perspective of a single-circuit sovereign money system." Keywords; monetary economics, money theory, credit creation, banking theory, fractional reserve banking, monetary policy, monetary reform One may find comments on the paper here: https://rwer.wordpress.com/comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80/ https://rwer.wordpress.com/comments-on-rwer-issue-no-80/ I'll quote part of the paper here, and I'd strongly recommend reading all of it if you want to have any understanding of modern economics at all: "[...] Modern money is non-cash As far as traditional solid cash (banknotes and coins) is still in use, cash circulation represents a third circuit. In contrast to precious-metal coins, and like reserves, cash is token fiat money today. But rather than circulating between central bank accounts (reserves) or between bank accounts (bankmoney), traditional solid cash circulates from hand to hand in public circulation, without needing banks, or central banks respectively, as a trusted third party. Regarding the future of money, modern digital cash based on some form of blockchain technology might become a modern equivalent of traditional cash (notwithstanding the question of who will issue and control the stock of such digital currency). In any case, in a basically cashless money system based on money-on-account, traditional cash is no longer of defining relevance. Within the frame of reserve banking, cash and money-on-account must not be confused as is done by negligent speak, and even by official accounting standards.¹ At source, modern money is non-cash, a credit entry into a respective account. In the split-circuit structure, this applies to both bankmoney and central bank money. Traditional solid cash (coins, notes) has become a residual technical subset of the bankmoney in circulation, withdrawn from or exchanged back into a bank giro account. Since about the 1920 – 60s, when bankmoney was definitely driving out solid cash in the course of the general dissemination of cashless payment practices, cash has no longer been constitutive of the money system. Cash now represents about 3 – 15% of the stock of money (M1), depending on the country, and a continued declining share in the long run. When referring to broad money aggregates (M2/3/4 which include, for example, deposit savings and money market fund shares) cash amounts to only 2 – 10%. Accordingly, cash can now largely be excluded from monetary system analysis (in spite of its present role as an effective hindrance to misguided negative interest rate policies of central banks). The means of payment that dominates everything today is bankmoney with its share of 90 – 98% in the entire money supply. [...] --- ¹ Cf. Financial Accounting Standards Board: FASB Accounting Standards Codification, Topic 305-2011, Cash and Cash Equivalents. The same in US GAAP (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). For a critical assessment see Schemmann, Michael. 2012. Accounting Perversion in Bank Financial Statements. The Root Cause of Financial Crises, IICPA Publications. [...] [...]"

birdmanjeremy 8y ago

Portugal is the lowest on the list. In my experience, it's also heavily biased towards cash, at least compared to the US. Perhaps the "value in Euros" is skewed because it's cheaper in Portugal than Germany?

expertentipp 8y ago

...while loyalty cards, points, and systems are thriving... old population and retailers unwilling to take over the transactions fees. Dont’t make any philosophies out of it. The same reasons why the internet is so shit in this country.