8 ms·

I took the inaugural train this weekend from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. The distance is 24miles as the crow flies and the journey exactly 30 minutes. So the avera

by yardie 8y ago

I took the inaugural train this weekend from Miami to Ft. Lauderdale. The distance is 24miles as the crow flies and the journey exactly 30 minutes. So the average speed for this leg of the journey was 48mph. This same journey would take 45 minutes by car in the express lane. I don't even want to imagine what this would be in the non-express during rush hour.

ComradeTaco 8y ago
It's definitely a good option and it's just a conventional speed intercity service: A true high speed rail line would take about 14 minutes.
- yardie 8y ago
  Yes, but this is passing through developed land at this point. I've yet to see a european high speed train hit it's top speed in a populated area. Even TGV doesn't do it's namesake while in Ile-de-France.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    In China, HSR can hit full speed in urban areas, but they are also on viaducts.
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      China also lacks actual mechanisms ensuring that land seizure serves the public and results in fair compensation. Some models are better off not being applied.
      - jfoutz 8y ago
        I’m not sure if you are asserting eminent domain is a mistake.
        bobthepanda 8y ago
        Of course not all of it is, but at the same time there are limits to how much benefit you can get out of it for the downside. In the West eminent domain's necessity is contestable, and thus it is used very sparingly and only when the benefits are undoubtedly much better than the downside; no modern Western country could get away with evicting 1.5 million people for a sporting event, or appropriating massive amounts of land to build speculative real estate when vacancy rates are in the double digits. Is the benefit of running at full tilt in cities really worth it? You don't spend a lot of mileage traveling within a city, and cities are generally places where trains slow down and stop anyways. Combined with the very high cost of land appropriation in a city assuming fair market compensation, there's a reason why most places just don't bother with full high speed rail in urban areas.
        thaumasiotes 8y ago
        > In the West eminent domain's necessity is contestable, and thus it is used very sparingly and only when the benefits are undoubtedly much better than the downside Or for an alternative view, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London .
        bobthepanda 8y ago
        > Opposition to the ruling was widespread, coming from groups such as AARP, the NAACP, the Libertarian Party and the Institute for Justice. Many owners of family farms also disapproved of the ruling, as they saw it as an avenue by which cities could seize their land for private developments. The American Conservative Union condemned the decision.[29] As a result, many states changed their eminent domain laws. Prior to the Kelo decision, only seven states specifically prohibited the use of eminent domain for economic development except to eliminate blight. Since the decision, forty-four states have amended their eminent domain laws, although some of these changes are cosmetic.[30] The mechanisms were adjusted accordingly as the public and the politicians they voted in saw fit.
        twelvechairs 8y ago
      - mnky9800n 8y ago
        There is no land ownership in China. So why should there be strong eminent domain laws?
  - pgeorgi 8y ago
    They're slower in populated areas because the tracks aren't made for high-speed there (eg. too strong curvature, lots of junctions). The same train takes 12 minutes for the ICE Frankfurt/Cologne to get from Frankfurt central station to Frankfurt Airport (9km linear distance, average 45km/h, 28mph) and then 49 minutes from there to Cologne (150km linear distance, average 183km/h, 113mph). The latter leg is still pretty close to "populated areas" (just outside various towns along the route), but the track was specifically made for that train (taking required minimum curvature etc into account) and point-to-point connection (fewer junctions).
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      > The latter leg is still pretty close to "populated areas" (just outside various towns along the route), but the track was specifically made for that train (taking required minimum curvature etc into account) and point-to-point connection (fewer junctions). How many grade crossings are there on that route? This train, at least through Hallandale/Hollywood, needs to deal with a grade crossing every half mile (800m) or so. Considering the crap that went on during the effort 20 years ago to get FEC to stop using horns at certain times of day convincing people that a train should be allowed to do 100+ mph down that line is a non-starter.
      - gsnedders 8y ago
        Basically nowhere in Europe allows grade crossings (of any sort, pedestrian or vehicular) at over 200km/h, and it's a 300km/h line. There aren't any. That said, I can think of a fair number of places in different places in Europe where there's at-grade crossings in built up areas where trains regularly cross at around 100mph. (OTOH, there's no general requirement for horns/whistles at them.)
- noobermin 8y ago
  As if high speed rail exists in the united states. This is high tech for us here.
  - adventured 8y ago
    It's about to. Texas is going to build a bunch of high speed rail over the next 15-20 years, likely linking every major city in the state and then connecting into a few neighbor states. The first line, between Dallas and Houston, will begin construction within the next year. Unlike California, Texas will actually get this done quickly at a sane cost, and it will act as a model for the rest of the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway https://communityimpact.com/houston/tomball-magnolia/development-construction/2018/05/04/texas-central-amtrak-reach-agreement/ https://communityimpact.com/houston/tomball-magnolia/develop...
    - mnky9800n 8y ago
      This is still too slow. Available in 20 years? I live now, not 20 years from now. True investment would see it being built far quicker.
      - frozenport 8y ago
        The company has indicated that service on the line could start as early as 2020
      - desdiv 8y ago
        "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." I agree with you that it's too little too late, but at least they're trying.
      - adventured 8y ago
        Hopefully you'll be alive in 20 years too. It's the old adage about the best time to plant a tree. The US has been avoiding high speed rail for decades leaning on excuses about time & cost; it's a form of being crippled by short-term thinking. Connecting Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, will take at least a decade, more likely closer to 15 years. There is no real scenario where it happens faster. From El Paso you push to Tucson, Phoenix, Albuquerque. From Houston you go to New Orleans. From Dallas you go to Oklahoma City. Then if other cities are smart at all and pick up some confidence about what can be done, and at a reasonable cost, you then see eg St Louis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago all link up. And so on. The model for the US will be regional high speed rail, rather than massive scale coast to coast approaches. Maybe eventually you get high speed interlinking between them.
joe_the_user 8y ago
Compared to Sonoma County Smart Train, in my area, which takes an hour to get from Santa Rosa to San Rafael (Google say 38 miles by freeway so I assume less as the crow flies) in an hour, this seems quite good.
sandos 8y ago
That is a really slow train, almost makes it sound like a tram. How many stops were there? Trains here in Sweden, albeit for longer distances usually go either 120, 160 or 200 km/h. Thats 74/100/124 miles/h.
- goatlover 8y ago
  Yeah, we don't get to have those kinds of trains here. Maybe 74, and maybe hyperloop one day.
- cjrp 8y ago
  Don't you have commuter trains?
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Yes, but they speed up to between stations and don't run at just 48 mph.
    - cjrp 8y ago
      Presumably the average speed of 48mph includes slowing down/accelerating.
      - gsnedders 8y ago
        The question then is why it takes so long to accelerate.
        geezerjay 8y ago
        > The question then is why it takes so long to accelerate. For a number of reasons, including safety, passenger comfort, and managing the trade-off between energy waste and traveling speed. You can picture a passenger bus and how gradually the driver needs to start the ride. You can't just supercharge the engine and expect passengers to grab hold to their seats.
pc86 8y ago
I hope it's obviously why you can't use straight line distance to computer average speed for something that doesn't move in a perfectly straight line.
- dx034 8y ago
  High-speed trains often move close to straight-line (which is a reason why they're so expensive) and if you compare to planes (for longer distances), they also fly approx straight lines. Theoretical average speed is a valid measurement, in my opinion, also for door-to-door times for flying vs. driving.
johannes1234321 8y ago
Any issue is that the car brings you close to your final destination. With a train you need connecting service, a working public transport system, like in Japan and many parts of Europe.

by yardie 8y ago

ComradeTaco 8y ago

It's definitely a good option and it's just a conventional speed intercity service: A true high speed rail line would take about 14 minutes.

yardie 8y ago
Yes, but this is passing through developed land at this point. I've yet to see a european high speed train hit it's top speed in a populated area. Even TGV doesn't do it's namesake while in Ile-de-France.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  In China, HSR can hit full speed in urban areas, but they are also on viaducts.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    China also lacks actual mechanisms ensuring that land seizure serves the public and results in fair compensation. Some models are better off not being applied.
    - jfoutz 8y ago
      I’m not sure if you are asserting eminent domain is a mistake.
      - bobthepanda 8y ago
        Of course not all of it is, but at the same time there are limits to how much benefit you can get out of it for the downside. In the West eminent domain's necessity is contestable, and thus it is used very sparingly and only when the benefits are undoubtedly much better than the downside; no modern Western country could get away with evicting 1.5 million people for a sporting event, or appropriating massive amounts of land to build speculative real estate when vacancy rates are in the double digits. Is the benefit of running at full tilt in cities really worth it? You don't spend a lot of mileage traveling within a city, and cities are generally places where trains slow down and stop anyways. Combined with the very high cost of land appropriation in a city assuming fair market compensation, there's a reason why most places just don't bother with full high speed rail in urban areas.
        thaumasiotes 8y ago
        > In the West eminent domain's necessity is contestable, and thus it is used very sparingly and only when the benefits are undoubtedly much better than the downside Or for an alternative view, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London .
        bobthepanda 8y ago
        > Opposition to the ruling was widespread, coming from groups such as AARP, the NAACP, the Libertarian Party and the Institute for Justice. Many owners of family farms also disapproved of the ruling, as they saw it as an avenue by which cities could seize their land for private developments. The American Conservative Union condemned the decision.[29] As a result, many states changed their eminent domain laws. Prior to the Kelo decision, only seven states specifically prohibited the use of eminent domain for economic development except to eliminate blight. Since the decision, forty-four states have amended their eminent domain laws, although some of these changes are cosmetic.[30] The mechanisms were adjusted accordingly as the public and the politicians they voted in saw fit.
        twelvechairs 8y ago
    - mnky9800n 8y ago
      There is no land ownership in China. So why should there be strong eminent domain laws?
- pgeorgi 8y ago
  They're slower in populated areas because the tracks aren't made for high-speed there (eg. too strong curvature, lots of junctions). The same train takes 12 minutes for the ICE Frankfurt/Cologne to get from Frankfurt central station to Frankfurt Airport (9km linear distance, average 45km/h, 28mph) and then 49 minutes from there to Cologne (150km linear distance, average 183km/h, 113mph). The latter leg is still pretty close to "populated areas" (just outside various towns along the route), but the track was specifically made for that train (taking required minimum curvature etc into account) and point-to-point connection (fewer junctions).
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    > The latter leg is still pretty close to "populated areas" (just outside various towns along the route), but the track was specifically made for that train (taking required minimum curvature etc into account) and point-to-point connection (fewer junctions). How many grade crossings are there on that route? This train, at least through Hallandale/Hollywood, needs to deal with a grade crossing every half mile (800m) or so. Considering the crap that went on during the effort 20 years ago to get FEC to stop using horns at certain times of day convincing people that a train should be allowed to do 100+ mph down that line is a non-starter.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      Basically nowhere in Europe allows grade crossings (of any sort, pedestrian or vehicular) at over 200km/h, and it's a 300km/h line. There aren't any. That said, I can think of a fair number of places in different places in Europe where there's at-grade crossings in built up areas where trains regularly cross at around 100mph. (OTOH, there's no general requirement for horns/whistles at them.)
noobermin 8y ago
As if high speed rail exists in the united states. This is high tech for us here.
- adventured 8y ago
  It's about to. Texas is going to build a bunch of high speed rail over the next 15-20 years, likely linking every major city in the state and then connecting into a few neighbor states. The first line, between Dallas and Houston, will begin construction within the next year. Unlike California, Texas will actually get this done quickly at a sane cost, and it will act as a model for the rest of the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Central_Railway https://communityimpact.com/houston/tomball-magnolia/development-construction/2018/05/04/texas-central-amtrak-reach-agreement/ https://communityimpact.com/houston/tomball-magnolia/develop...
  - mnky9800n 8y ago
    This is still too slow. Available in 20 years? I live now, not 20 years from now. True investment would see it being built far quicker.
    - frozenport 8y ago
      The company has indicated that service on the line could start as early as 2020
    - desdiv 8y ago
      "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now." I agree with you that it's too little too late, but at least they're trying.
    - adventured 8y ago
      Hopefully you'll be alive in 20 years too. It's the old adage about the best time to plant a tree. The US has been avoiding high speed rail for decades leaning on excuses about time & cost; it's a form of being crippled by short-term thinking. Connecting Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, will take at least a decade, more likely closer to 15 years. There is no real scenario where it happens faster. From El Paso you push to Tucson, Phoenix, Albuquerque. From Houston you go to New Orleans. From Dallas you go to Oklahoma City. Then if other cities are smart at all and pick up some confidence about what can be done, and at a reasonable cost, you then see eg St Louis, Louisville, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago all link up. And so on. The model for the US will be regional high speed rail, rather than massive scale coast to coast approaches. Maybe eventually you get high speed interlinking between them.

joe_the_user 8y ago

Compared to Sonoma County Smart Train, in my area, which takes an hour to get from Santa Rosa to San Rafael (Google say 38 miles by freeway so I assume less as the crow flies) in an hour, this seems quite good.

sandos 8y ago

That is a really slow train, almost makes it sound like a tram. How many stops were there? Trains here in Sweden, albeit for longer distances usually go either 120, 160 or 200 km/h. Thats 74/100/124 miles/h.

goatlover 8y ago
Yeah, we don't get to have those kinds of trains here. Maybe 74, and maybe hyperloop one day.
cjrp 8y ago
Don't you have commuter trains?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Yes, but they speed up to between stations and don't run at just 48 mph.
  - cjrp 8y ago
    Presumably the average speed of 48mph includes slowing down/accelerating.
    - gsnedders 8y ago
      The question then is why it takes so long to accelerate.
      - geezerjay 8y ago
        > The question then is why it takes so long to accelerate. For a number of reasons, including safety, passenger comfort, and managing the trade-off between energy waste and traveling speed. You can picture a passenger bus and how gradually the driver needs to start the ride. You can't just supercharge the engine and expect passengers to grab hold to their seats.

pc86 8y ago

I hope it's obviously why you can't use straight line distance to computer average speed for something that doesn't move in a perfectly straight line.

dx034 8y ago
High-speed trains often move close to straight-line (which is a reason why they're so expensive) and if you compare to planes (for longer distances), they also fly approx straight lines. Theoretical average speed is a valid measurement, in my opinion, also for door-to-door times for flying vs. driving.

johannes1234321 8y ago

Any issue is that the car brings you close to your final destination. With a train you need connecting service, a working public transport system, like in Japan and many parts of Europe.