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People Loved MoviePass Nearly to Death
- maym86 8y agoWhy do cinemas not like it? They get paid for each ticket and people go more frequently.
- analogmemory 8y agoI think it was just the editor trying to create a strawman. The only objection I saw was an AMC exec saying their pricing model is flawed. That's not really hating it's existence.
- hb3b 8y agoThey foresee Moviepass flexing it's muscle to drop the average cost of tickets below what's already a low margin service. Also, I wonder how many Moviepass users get concessions each time they see a flick.
- jonny_eh 8y ago> Also, I wonder how many Moviepass users get concessions each time they see a flick As a MoviePass customer I buy more concessions since my budget isn't blown on the ticket.
- tristanj 8y agoAMC spells it out in a press release. http://investor.amctheatres.com/file/Index?KeyFile=389925821 http://investor.amctheatres.com/file/Index?KeyFile=389925821 The AMC average ticket price for watching a movie at AMC Theatres in the most recent financial quarter was $9.33. From what we can tell, by definition and absent some other form of other compensation, MoviePass will be losing money on every subscriber seeing two movies or more in a month. [...] In AMC’s view, that price level is unsustainable and only sets up consumers for ultimate disappointment down the road if or when the product can no longer be fulfilled. AMC also believes that promising essentially unlimited first-run movie content at a price below $10 per month over time will not provide sufficient revenue to operate quality theatres nor will it produce enough income to provide film makers with sufficient incentive to make great new movies. Therefore, AMC will not be able to offer discounts to MoviePass in the future, which seems to be among their aims. While AMC is not opposed to subscription programs generally, the one envisioned by MoviePass is not one AMC can embrace.
- cheriot 8y ago> AMC also believes that promising essentially unlimited first-run movie content at a price below $10 per month over time will not provide sufficient revenue MoviePass has proven theaters are interesting to more people than I'd have thought in a world of 70"+ TVs and 4K streaming. A smarter Pass could experiment with non-peak times, second release movies, and concessions. Average ticket price really isn't the best metric with the fixed costs of a theater.
- pertymcpert 8y agoIt's also a way to get out of the house with your SO if you both like movies.
- robryan 8y agoIf Movie Pass manages to do well they are at the mercy of a middle man that can turn supply on and off for their cinemas and ultimately crunch them down on price. If Movie Pass fails it still helps set an unrealistic price for the cinemas who won't be able to match it. It may drive even more people away from cinemas who no longer wish to pay full price.
- jogjayr 8y agoIt turns them into a commodity supplier to MoviePass. Who wants to be a commodity supplier?
- mherdeg 8y agoOh wow, I had been watching what happened to NASDAQ: HMNY in summer 2017, but I had not kept paying attention since then. Yikes.
- arbie 8y agoThe theater chains await MoviePass' demise so they can announce their revolutionary chain-specific Pass for just $30/month. - Conditions apply. No more than one movie per calendar week. Surcharges applicable for IMAX, 3D, and other premium features. Opening nights and weekends excluded. Blackout dates apply.
- batiudrami 8y agoIt doesn't need to be that restrictive. Just a couple of dollars more than a one standard deviation consumer's monthly spend (or whatever they settle on). The unit cost of one person in a cinema is normally negligible after all, so a specific cinema just need to convince members to spend a little more, and to always spend it at their cinema. Moviepass does neither of these things. This is definitely a model which can work for cinemas. Just not at this price point and business model.
- jchw 8y agoHere's the problem, or at least part of it; executives don't usually give a damn what the most reasonable option is. This comes across their desk and they want to know how much they can get away with. It may not need to be that restrictive, sure... but the question they're looking at is how restrictive it can be while still netting a profit. The other problem is that I think the cost of someone using a subscription service will be higher than the average moviegoer, simply because going to the movies often is cost prohibitive for a lot of people.
- batiudrami 8y agoSure but if cinemas aren't full (and they rarely are except for opening weekend) the actual cost of having someone in the theatre is nothing. If the target customer sees 2 movies @$12 each a month it doesn't matter if they see 10 at $30 total as long as they aren't filling the cinema - the cinema is still making $6 more off them, plus any snacks they buy. Maybe it's a matter of just not allowing subscription passes for opening weekend (or only at the door if it's undersold rather than in advance). Maybe you get your seat allocated at ticket pick up rather than in advance so full-fare paying customers get the best seats. There's obviously going to be a compromise somewhere, but it doesn't have to be unworkable.
- matte_black 8y ago“Nearly”? I’m pretty sure MoviePass is toast, just a matter of time before it’s gone. Enjoy while you can!
- ggg9990 8y agoPricing can turn a good business into a dumb idea that doesn’t really deserve to exist. MoviePass in one direction, Juicero in the other.
- microdrum 8y agoBird and Lime, too.
- zhoujianfu 8y agoWhat’s dumb about their pricing? As far as I know the $1 plus 15c/min is profitable for them and yet not discouraging users?
- hndamien 8y agoI still think private ownership for something that is 7.5 - 12kgs makes more sense. Always with you, charge yourself, not cost prohibitive. The market for transient ownership and use still doesn't make that much sense to me, but I guess it works.
- zhoujianfu 8y agoI actually bought one of the scooters bird used because they’re cheap and they don’t usually have one right by my house... but I still rent them semi-frequently. They come in handy whenever you need to do a one-way trip, or spontaneously realize one would be useful and didn’t bring yours, and it’s kind of nice to not have to worry about maintenance/charging.
- hndamien 8y agoI see a place for both, like you say, but I think this might make it harder to be financially viable.
- mylons 8y agoi disagree for exactly the reasons you listed. i don't want to charge it myself, i don't want to lug it around or worry about it's security once i'm at my destination. i'm paying for the ability to leave it anywhere.
- john_moscow 8y agoI just can't stop wondering: had they been VC-backed rather than a public company, would they manage to raise >10x their current market cap? There are plenty of other examples like Uber and WeWork that get plenty of funding based on speculation of finding a better business model in the future; what stopped MoviePass from riding that wave?
- aresant 8y agoThe icing on the cake in this article is the following picture caption: "Mitch Lowe, chief executive of MoviePass, in the company’s office at a WeWork in Manhattan." So the movie company selling dollar bills for half price is leasing their HQ from a real estate company that owns no physical asssets but has $5b in upcoming leasing liabilities as they proudly arbitrage 15 year triple net leases into 1 - 3 year terms for startups. At some point the gas on the fire will stop and it may be awful cold for a while.
- wyattpeak 8y agoI'm with you on MoviePass, but I'm unconvinced there's any problem with WeWork's business model. Lacking any assets or output of their own hasn't stopped middlemen from making a mint since the invention of trade.
- cjensen 8y agoSure. But WeWork isn't making any money as a middleman. And their debt is already down to junk.
- wyattpeak 8y agoOh shit, you're right. My mistake, I just assumed they were profitable given the seemingly solid revenue model and fairly high rents.
- btown 8y ago> their debt is already down to junk For those unaware, this is not a metaphor. https://www.wsj.com/articles/weworks-debt-receives-junk-rating-1524604393 https://www.wsj.com/articles/weworks-debt-receives-junk-rati... https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-04-25/wework-s-junk-bond-adventure-raises-18-billion-question https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-04-25/wework-...
- walterbell 8y agoWhat would happen to the CRE market if WeWork goes under?
- Camillo 8y agoDoes it make sense to get MoviePass while it's still alive? On one hand, the subscription costs less than a single movie ticket where I live, and even as an infrequent movie-goer I'm pretty sure I'd save money. On the other hand, they're obviously going to crash and burn, and who knows what they'll do with my account at that point. What's the worst I can expect? Spam? Robocalls? Identity theft?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- degenerate 8y agoDon't do it. You have to install their app and use a special credit card they send you in conjunction with the app. That's how they ensure you are not cheating/sharing. I had it for a month and then tried to cancel before my renewal; it took 3 full weeks (21 days!) of pestering their support over email every 3-5 days to escalate my refund case, and I had to threaten a BBB case before my ticket actually got escalated, and I finally got refunded 4 days after the threat. They do not have phone support at all.
- illnewsthat 8y agoI don't have Movie Pass, but according to moviepass subreddit they do have phone support: 646-400-0801 11AM-8PM EDT. (Might be newly added depending on when you cancelled). Doesn't necessarily mean they have good customer support, but probably a step in the right direction.
- jack9 8y agohttps://www.reddit.com/r/moviepass/comments/7qa8t5/moviepass_faqs/ https://www.reddit.com/r/moviepass/comments/7qa8t5/moviepass...
- rwmj 8y ago> For ticket verifications, if an unreadable stub is uploaded; you get one free pass. Upon the 2nd unreadable stub, your account will be terminated. So there you are, a simple way to terminate your own account :-)
- franciscop 8y agoI think this is a perfect example of what the people want I'm home all companies are too blind to see it. Of course we want to go to the movies, but with the current pricing and alternatives such as Netflix and torrents (where it is legal) why would we? Some companies are just too stubborn to survive, trying to maximize current profit while destroying their long-term viability.
- ryanjshaw 8y agoIt will be interesting to see what happens. Demand has spoken at this price point. Will supply come around to accept it and produce movies for e.g. $25m instead of $100m?
- ghaff 8y agoThere are tons of relatively modest budget movies out there. They mostly aren't what draw the big crowds though. It's the big action franchises that make most of the money, not the small prestige dramas.
- ghaff 8y agoIs watching at home versus going to the theater really a money thing though? I guess there are some people discouraged by theater pricing but then these passes are oriented toward heavy users. Personally there are a lot of reasons why I usually watch at home but sometimes go to a new release on a big screen. Money doesn't really factor in.
- xmodem 8y agoFor me personally the cost of a movie ticket is a rounding error, even at more expensive cinemas. The experience of watching a movie at home, with a few close friends, on a 65 inch OLED, with a Dolby Atmos system, and access to my beer fridge and refreshments from the supermarket, is far superior to anything a cinema could offer.
- ghaff 8y ago
- floatingatoll 8y ago“How Bloomberg Blamed 2M People for MoviePass Permitting 2M Signups It Couldn’t Afford”
- Animats 8y agoThere's probably a profitable business model in selling a cheap movie pass that lets you watch all you want Monday through Wednesday. Movie theaters would go for a bulk buy for their dead days.
- ddtaylor 8y agoI don't think the idea of selling advertising is very good for MoviePass, as in suggestions on what to watch or where to eat, etc. They could have some success with different tiers of service and letting the studios pay to have their movie in a cheaper tier - like a Bronze package at $10/mo that only gives access to movies where studios have paid them X and people have to play a higher rate for Silver, etc. to recoup the cost of seeing movies they would take a loss on. That could make some sense since studios have turned many movies into advertisements for merchandise.
- gwbas1c 8y agoThe CEO is betting that people will sign up and forget they have a subscription. No business survives when its runs on their customers stupidity.
- megy 8y agoGyms?
- smnrchrds 8y agoThat was my first thought too. "Most businesses would close if their customers never showed up. An empty restaurant is a disaster. An empty store means bankruptcy. At a gym, emptiness equals success. Today on the show, the mind games that gyms play with you. From design to pricing to free bagels, gyms want to be a product that everyone buys, but no one actually uses." From Planet Money: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/12/17/371463435/episode-590-the-planet-money-workout https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/12/17/371463435/epis...
- yazr 8y agoMoviePass should give out Book of the Week to discourage customers... Still, the NPR story mentions 15$/month Gym! in Manhattan! And its a huge place that can hold 300 people. Americans are crazy...
- natecavanaugh 8y agoGyms rely on their clients optimism to sign up, but profit on their lack of commitment, which seems to be what MoviePass is banking on. Early adopters tend to be the most vocal and the most intent on extracting value, so I can see that if they hit a certain level of users, there's a chance it could be as profitable as a gym. The question comes down to one of runway, and it's tough to tell if the CEO is being truthful about future investment. It seems risky but I'm curious to see if I should give it a try now vs. waiting until they get more "creative" with their plans.
- dawnerd 8y agoI’ve only seen like one movie this month so very possible. When I signed up I watched a movie a day until there was nothing else. I bet most people will be the same. Moviepass will probably have to get people into year plans only so there’s no subscribing just to May/June/July for the big blockbusters. But yeah it’s pretty dumb for that to be their only game plan. They could pivot and license their tech out to chains to run their own programs - especially smaller chains.
- ErikAugust 8y agoThey boast of the CEO growing customers from 20,000 to 2M by cutting prices. But by cutting prices, they lose more money per customer. So by growing customers they grow losses. One thing you see time and time again is some version of the old joke: “We lose money on every unit, but we make it up on volume!”
- wellboy 8y agoYeah and then you can simply change the movie pass feature and add some other type of subscription model and sell stuff to your user base. It's a smart way to grow your app, but they need to be smart to sell something good to monetize their usr base wel now.
- nunez 8y agoAMC has been struggling at keeping people in the theaters. Shouldn’t they be thankful for a company like MoviePass that gets people into theaters again, even if it’s at a lower ticket price?
- tehlike 8y agoAnd most theaters make up the money from the beverages and popcorn.
- fredsted 8y agoI think cinema subscriptions are obviously the future: I don't even think the cinemas care that much about ticket prices. Food, candy, beverages – that's where the money is earned.
- mcintyre1994 8y agoThis might lead to cinemas making their staff care about people bringing in their own snacks though, which would suck.
- cm2187 8y agoSo they plan to make up the gaps by selling their customers data. How valuable is this data in the first place? It feels that so many companies, whether social network, search engines, advertising companies, etc are all building the same profile. At the end there is only so many attributes a company can collect on its users, if everyone has them are they worth anything?
- eaenki 8y agodata alone is kinda worthless. time + granular data is valuable.
- onetimemanytime 8y agoLike me opening a business next to Walmart and $100 a month offer to buy, say, $500 Walmart stuff for each user. I'd make up in volume pretty quickly :) MoviePass would make sense if the major theater chains did it and focused on slow days. If the lights are one, movie playing and theater staff has to be on site, adding additional users would cost next to nothing. Add popcorn and soda purchases and they'd make out like bandits.
- skizm 8y agoThey should change the model to only sell the tickets at or after the listed start time of the movie. That way all the tickets sold are all profit since those tickets probably wouldn't have been sold anyway.
- Teknoman117 8y agoIf anything, it should show movie theaters that if they dropped their own prices, more people would go to the movies...
- arbie 8y agoWhat respectable theater-chain CEO would admit that and act on it?
- actionscripted 8y agoI feel the same about concessions. I realize it might all be calculated to the penny for peak income but I would be more keen to regularly buy concessions if I wasn't paying close to $20 for a soda and a popcorn. I would think dropping the cost a bit might increase the number of folks buying. (The margins on it all are what really piss me off.) I also wish it wasn't essentially a flat price for everything. A small, medium or large anything is generally just fifty cents to a dollar away from any other size. I want a small soda and popcorn I get pressed to size-up for that extra few cents to get a gallon/barrel of each.
- nol13 8y ago"The margins on it all are what really piss me off." Not that it's your problem as a consumer, but factor in that your ticket price pretty much all goes to the studio. (correct?) And getting $8.50 for the large which costs $0.14 better than getting $8.00 for small which costs $0.12
- rhino369 8y agoAnd if Apple sold the MBP for 500 bucks their sales would 10X. But that wouldn't be profitable.
- discardable_dan 8y agoThe difference is that most movie showings are not full, and every empty seat is $12 lost. If you have 50 people seeing a movie at $12, and you'll get more than 10 more people watching it if you price it at $10, you'll make a profit (not to mention concessions).
- iambateman 8y agoIt seems like MoviePass is stuck between a marginal cost rock and user expectation hard place. But if AMC adds their own pass subscription, I don’t think they would be. My impression is that theater chains have great margins and very low marginal cost to add one more viewer. In my area, there are only a few theaters playing the major hit movies, and I don’t think it would be a problem to subscribe to a particular theater. I really think AMC is holding onto a $19/month plan for unlimited movies, which would be profitable for them out of the gate.
- WaltPurvis 8y agoI signed up for MoviePass 5 months ago, thinking I'd be more likely to go watch movies in a theater if it "doesn't cost anything" to go. Sadly, that's not been the case for me. I haven't been to the theater once, so I've basically wasted $50. Time to cancel MoviePass, and I guess also time to admit that I just don't care that much about seeing movies on the big screen.
- Teknoman117 8y agoI suppose I was the opposite. I enjoy seeing the big titles of the year, but I usually only go to one or two because I really don't mind waiting another 3 months for it to come out on bluray or some instant video service. Whereas after I got moviepass, I go see pretty much everything that catches my attention.