9 ms·

DHH: Are you sure you want to be in San Francisco?

108 points by johns 19y ago

menloparkbum 19y ago
The smart businesses know you don't want to be in San Francisco - there are too many distractions. You want to be somewhere lame, like San Carlos, so that people don't have anything to do besides work. edit: I guess I should have added the ";)" JUST KIDDING!
- thaumaturgy 19y ago
  Bluh. Dunno about you, but I get badly demotivated if all I'm doing is working.
gojomo 19y ago
Much of the "go big with other people's money" culture is by design. People are naturally risk-averse -- moreso than pools of capital would prefer. Capital wants to maximize expected return, and will smooth out the variance by diversification, rather than trading away raw expected return for stability.
kyro 19y ago
His first argument seems to do more with the teams themselves than the surrounding area. Temptation is found anywhere, whether it's a big office in the bay area, a huge flat in Chicago, or me supersizing my McDonald's combo #2. If you're not disciplined with your money, you're bound to fail regardless of location. Sounds like he's making a generalization about programmers, too.
- comatose_kid 19y ago
  As a Silicon Valley resident who has lived in an inexpensive place, I think you have to be more disciplined with your money and time if you live in the Bay Area.
kennyroo 19y ago
I wonder if DHH means SF proper, or if he's actually talking about the entire Bay Area. The Peninsula (Palo Alto, San Mateo) and the South Bay (Mountain View, San Jose, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale) are home to the popular web sites used around the world. The issues you would deal with living in SF differ pretty dramatically from the ones you'd deal with living anywhere else in the Bay Area. (Except the expense, which is bad everywhere.)
dnaquin 19y ago
No one's mentioned competition? Along the lines of start small, regional and expand. It's easy to differentiate yourself as a regional online application. Anywhere else.
thaumaturgy 19y ago
I agree. I live in Grass Valley, in the Sierra foothills. Turns out, we've got a solid little tech base here, in a rural area. I never wanted to go the VC route, so the conditions here have made it much easier for me to bootstrap as a consultant, and make lots of professional connections. In my case, I'll ultimately be more successful starting out here, than I think I would have in the Bay Area.
gibsonf1 19y ago
DHH talked about lifestyle at Startup camp, and lifestyle is the key reason to want to be in San Francisco. It is simply a great City to live in with the added benefit that almost any escape to the natural world, like skiiing, sailing, etc etc, is immediately available. The downside is some added cost, but the costs here are comparable to Southbay locations and other major Cities. So if you want to build a sustainable business with a lifestyle that you want to enjoy for the long-term, San Francisco is an ideal location.
- menloparkbum 19y ago
  I love the bay area. DHH has a point, but for the wrong reasons. The VC/Web 2.0 echosphere is easy to ignore. The simple reason it is hard to start a business in the Bay Area without investment is because it is so expensive.
- 9oliYQjP 19y ago
  San Francisco is a great city. But there are other great cities too. I for one, love where I live in Toronto. There is a general perception that Toronto is just another American city except it happens to be in Canada. That is flat out inaccurate and my colleague one office over who just emigrated from California and another American colleague who setup shop here after getting his Ph.D. from Harvard will attest to that. At a conference I attended yesterday, a British speaker asked which day "here" was fireworks day and some Americans piped up "July 4th" to which a whole bunch of us miffed Canadians shot back "July 1st!!!! Geez you're not in the U.S.":-) Anyways, Toronto is not just another American city although I have heard it shares a lot of characteristics with San Francisco culturally. I live right downtown in Toronto, and while I have a car, I like to walk or bike places. I managed to find a great office that is a 5 minute walk from where I live and it is situated about 500 m from two major subway lines, close to the biggest university and one major college, a hop-skip-and-jump from the museum and art gallery, and countless other great places. I walk out my front door and within 200 m is a great café, a patisserie, a pub, health food restaurant (with food that actually tastes good), etc. I know more of my neighbours here than I did when I lived in a Toronto suburb. I don't think the key is to live in San Francisco. I think the key is to get the hell out of the suburban hell holes that riddle North America like cancerous spots on an otherwise healthy lung, and find cities in which you can live that offer culture, art, helpful business communities (Google "Toronto BIAs"), understanding government, and diversity with respect to people and industries (e.g., don't live in a one-hit wonder industry city). I can understand that the proximity to the Valley is a huge selling point of San Francisco. You have to remember most of the people telling you to move to San Francisco are doing so because they want to invest in you and they can only do that if they can keep a close eye on you. If you're not looking for investment from those people, then live somewhere else. I mean, there's some cool stuff coming out of Toronto. Check these guys out: http://www.ideeinc.com/ http://www.ideeinc.com/.
deleted 19y ago
[deleted]
geebee 19y ago
San Francisco is an interesting place. I live in SF, and I know a lot of programmers (and other tech workers) who live in SF, but I doubt that more than a third of them actually work in SF proper. Most of us engage in long and soul destroying drives to sterile office buildings in the midst of pedestrian-unfriendly parking lots on the peninsula and in the south bay. And we pay a lot for the privilege. I think that other cities, like Portland, Seattle, Austin in the US (and maybe Barcelona, Copenhagen internationally) might actually be better places to work. I wouldn't leave SF, but I grew up here and have family around. If I were starting out, I'd definitely consider other cities.
- jamiequint 19y ago
  +1 for portland, its a great place to live
- tx 19y ago
  I can't believe you put Portland and Austin in the same sentence. Nothing wrong with Portland, but Austin is simply in another league: I don't believe there is another place in US with such combination of technology, nightlife and dating scenes. I do feel sorry for all guys in their 20s living in Bay Area.
  - SwellJoe 19y ago
    I've lived and started a business in both Austin and Silicon Valley. If you're starting a tech business the valley is a lot better. I miss the weather and the live music scene in Austin, but the tech startup climate is orders of magnitude better in the valley. I'll go back to Austin when I've built the business that I want to build. Until then, I'm staying where the ground is most fertile.
  - geebee 19y ago
    That's funny - I actually feel sorry for all the guys in their 30s living in SF (and that includes me)! Technology, nightlife, and dating seems pretty great in SF. And when you have no obligations, you can take advantage of all of that. Most of the programmers I know are now in their 30s with small children. We're trying to figure out how to pay a mortgate and preschool costs that easily exceed $1000/month. Salaries are high here, and two income families can swing it. But I have realized that high costs are toxic to freedom. Yeah, if you score huge with a startup you'll have enough money be free of the daily grind, but that isn't really in the cards for most of us, even if we take a real crack at it. I know people who have cashed out of the real estate market in SF and moved to Austin, and they absolutely love it. I think I'd enjoy it there, too. I think that it's probably easier to gain financial independence and start living on your own terms in other cities. And these don't have to be crappy lame places - these are really entertaining places to live. In some ways, I think the cost structure of SF makes it a less entertaining place to be, because people have to make more decisions based on paying the mortgage than doing something creative. But my wife and I have a huge extended family in SF (parents, grandparents, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc...). I've actually tried to leave, but just I can't do it. And to me, cost is the only problem - if you have the dough, then for a certain type of person, SF may be the most pleasant place to live in the US.
quellhorst 19y ago
Are you sure you want to listen to someone who has never lived in San Francisco? How can you measure the benefits of being around people and businesses that are similar? Its possible to trade stocks anywhere, but why do companies setup in New York or London? If you don't want to take someone else's money to build your business, then don't. If you lived in Las Vegas would you automatically become a gambler?
- tptacek 19y ago
  I don't know. Why don't you ask FeedBurner?
  - sabat 19y ago
    I think that -- by pointing out that there has been only one successful startup in Chicago (37Signals does not count; it's not really a startup, just a small business) -- that you just underscored the argument for the Bay Area.
    - condor 19y ago
      if a startup is not a small business, what is it?
      - sabat 19y ago
        It's a small business that is attempting to become either a large business or part of another large business. 37Signals is neither; it's about six people who want the company to remain small and independent. (I have no problem with that.)
        tptacek 19y ago
        It's not 37Signals's goal to stay "small"; it's their goal to grow revenue instead of people and real estate.
    - tptacek 19y ago
webwright 19y ago
If crazy growth, outside investment, and M&A are your goals, being in the Valley is the place to be. Especially if you are aiming for a consumer app. No question. If you're going the "DHH path" (profitable lifestyle business, limited outside investment), it probably doesn't matter much.
- vlad 19y ago
  This is really personally my remaining annoyance with News.YC. Too often, people either agree with a submission, or they disagree with a submission. There are too few posts per day that critically think about what is being discussed. In this case, I don't remember seeing one post about following a combination of strategies at once (if there were a couple of posts, that doesn't make the situation any less sad.) Making a smart product, having a strategy to grow, and offering a free viral version as well as a paid version that pays your bills is the way to go! In fact, having an abundance of free customers will increase the chance you NEED investment, not just the fact that VC's will be more interested. They're more interested because they know you will need money! If you have a paid version that pays your operating costs, and gives value, you can keep working on your startup indefinitely. It's also another way to get VC's interested. But except in this case, you logically won't be a little bitch. Instead of having to fake confidence while your cash flow has brought you down to nothing (more likely below nothing), and the only reason you're getting a good valuation is because there are many, many VCs around, and they like that you went to Stanford or something, you will instead be in a situation where you proved people will pay for your product and you don't really need to time selling your company or getting investment in the right cycle of the economy. So which option is better? Whichever one is better at the time! That's what DHH has been saying. If he actually needed investors for a venture, I'm sure he would surely take the money he needs. But he doesn't, so he doesn't. There's no wrong way. But he's wrong because Silicon Valley gives you that option to pursue VC's in case you need to, and the quality of life seems to be among the best places in the world. And it's sure better than living in the middle of nowhere. And it's great that you can meet cool people and ask them feedback about your apps without receiving questions like "why are you doing a startup" (because working for most companies is a rip off), "wow you must be rich" (people think it's rich people who do startups), and "can you fix my computer" (no explanation needed.) I like YCombinator's approach, where one can launch and see what happens for a few months before figuring out the best steps -- more angel funding, VC funding, multiple VC funding, selling, quitting, changing an idea, or even having a paid version.
johnrob 19y ago
There are a lot more chicks in other cities. This might assist founders during the low points of a startup.
- tptacek 19y ago
  Please check your gender bias at the login page.
pibefision 19y ago
I'm in Buenos Aires. The cost of living here it's 1/6 compared to San Francisco. And we have a lot of talent, cheap bandwidth and resources (apple Computers, big linux community, etc). Also, real state its growing fast. If you are planing to visit BA, msg me! :)
- ichverstehe 19y ago
  I've been to Argentina and I'm deeply in love with Buenos Aires – but heard that it's getting rather expensive living there fulltime. How is the job situation and such, for foreigners?
  - pibefision 19y ago
    You can rent an appartment for U$S 300/month in a very accesible and centric place. You don't need a car here. There is plenty of work on IT, but we are talking about startupping here, so yo have everything. This country does not request visa for work or tourist, so you will not have any problem. Mail me pablocorral at gmail.
  - wallflower 19y ago
    Fascinating and funny account of the tech scene in Buenos Aires from an unlikely newsgroup message: http://osdir.com/ml/culture.people.kragen.journal/2007-09/msg00000.html http://osdir.com/ml/culture.people.kragen.journal/2007-09/ms...
- kirubakaran 19y ago
  I plan to visit BA coming northern winter. I couldn't find your email. My email is (gmail kirubakaran)
- daniel-cussen 19y ago
  Santiago is nice, though for different reasons. Good weather, cheap, still a big city.
dbreunig 19y ago
There should be another point under TALENT. Set up shop near a college with a strong tech program.
- tptacek 19y ago
  And there should be a sub-bullet for "HARD TO COME BY IN THE BAY AREA". Yes, there's clearly more of it in the Bay in gross terms. That doesn't mean you're getting access to any of it: new startups in San Francisco are totally, completely outgunned.
sutro 19y ago
I'm glad you enjoy those wonderful Chicago winters, DHH.
- tptacek 19y ago
  I'm glad you enjoy paying $2000 a month for a 600sqft San Francisco studio, sutro.
  - philippp 19y ago
    Are you just trolling now? For the record, my roommate and I are paying $1,800 for a 1400 sq foot two bedroom. And that's a lot, when I compare with my friends who have lived here for more than a year.
- jrockway 19y ago
  Winter in Chicago isn't that bad. Do you think "wow, this is great weather" every day during the winter? No. But the spring, summer, and fall is very enjoyable. The problem with Chicago is that there are no other hackers around (all the tech people work for banks, and end up being as interesting as you'd imagine), and there are no 24-hour coffee shops, at least not near me. Chicago is a good place to be if you want to be alone. I guess it's "a big city" but it sure doesn't feel like it at times.
  - tptacek 19y ago
    Not at all true! The difference between the Chicago hacker scene and the San Francisco hacker scene is, you have to go out of your way to find the Chicago hacker scene, and you can't avoid the San Francisco hacker scene. I've worked for two startups here, both successful, and know of plenty more. And of course, "Feedburner Feedburner Feedburner 37Signals". Should there be a monthly meetup for people like us in Chicago? Absolutely. I set one up for security people (http://www.sockpuppet.org/chisec http://www.sockpuppet.org/chisec) and it's been pretty successful --- at least, if its spinoff (http://www.citysec.org http://www.citysec.org) is to be believed. If 40 people will show up each month to swap drinks for infosec stories, surely more would show up to talk about Social Networking for Pets.
cbryan 19y ago
I'm surprised that noone's really talking about money here. The Bay Area has one of the highest costs of living of any city in the country. That means its going to take that much more of your time to work, to make money, and to live. If you're spending your time working to live, that means you're not using that time to work on your projects. Right now I'm taking a culture hit. Living in Worcester, MA certainly doesn't put me at the center of startup culture, but Boston and Providence are close enough. I can take the bus/train and find myself surrounded by technically oriented people. A low cost of living in this town is what allows me to work less and affords me the free time to work on my projects. To me, this time to work is alot more valuable. (Oh, there is culture in Worcester. You just have to dig. :)
- kingkongrevenge 19y ago
  Not to mention that California is probably the most fiscally screwed up and one of the most tax heavy states in the country.
  - ardit33 19y ago
    You forget to mention that I make about twice as much here in SF as I did in Boston. And my lifestyle and quality of life improved dramatically... I have an uncle in Worcester, and I visit it once and a while, and I think it is really boring.
rob 19y ago
I think people are too focused on the logistics of "startups" and getting investors instead of actually creating websites that make money. The fact of the matter is, there are tons of individuals across the country that make thousands of dollars a month creating websites themselves. They don't seek funding, they either hire a designer/programmer or do it themselves. They don't have a beta, they launch whatever they they are making. They don't have one obscure idea that they think they need to go out and pay $5,000 to form an official company for, but instead have a couple of useful websites that generate money. If they start to make a lot of money, then they'll open a LLC for tax benefits. On top of that, I'd bet a majority of them have no computer science degree or the knowledge that the hackers here do, which means anyone here can make as much as them since they won't need to pay for programmers.
alaskamiller 19y ago
You know none of this really matters. Be a rebel. Live everywhere as often as you can. I've lived in Taipei, Los Angeles, LA suburb, east San Jose, Cupertino, San Diego, Pendleton, Lejeune, and now back in Cupertino with constant visits to San Francisco and I can honestly say... it doesn't really matter where you live. Learn as much as you can. Make as many friends as you can. And make sure you always have a WiFi connection.
sabat 19y ago
Flamebait. From a guy who's barely ever been here. From a guy who grew up in an ugly place with lousy weather (Denmark) and moved to a place that's remarkably similar to that. DHH generalizes wildly in this rant -- usually an indication of anger and jealousy rather than reason.
- rob 19y ago
  What is he angry and jealous of? I'm pretty sure he can afford to move there if he wants to.
  - sabat 19y ago
    I'm just guessing, but I'd say he's intimidated. Usually people who are frequently accused of arrogance are overcompensating. He doesn't like the Bay Area because so much happens here, and he's not a part of it. Afford? DHH is not rich.
    - dhh 19y ago
      I actually really like the Bay area as pleasant place to be. My argument is that you shouldn't move there to start a company of the product/price/profit variety. And this doesn't really have anything to do with cost. 37signals is a multi-million dollar company and we (including the founders) could certainly afford to move to San Francisco.
ivankirigin 19y ago
This issue is so much less important than other matters - and heavily context dependent. But I find the ability for two reasonable and diametrically opposing opinions interesting. I just moved to SF from Boston. I think more people understand startups in the Valley, making hiring with equity displacing cash more of an option. I also think my startup's success will heavily depend on distribution and business development deals. That makes moving to a concentrated area more important.
acgourley 19y ago
Just because there are some crap companies being started, and some crap investments being made, doesn't mean everything coming out of the bay area is as DHH describes. I'm working at a company thats doing quite well, and will continue to do quite well. Being close to the bay area was essential, so essential that the founders both relocate from their homes for most of the year to be here.
brianmckenzie 19y ago
I loved DHH's speech at startup school, but having lived in Chicago and now living in SF, I have to disagree with him on this one. His point seems twofold: 1) The availability of funding in the Bay Area tempts people to take it whether they need it or not, and 2) The competition for top talent is stronger here than anywhere else. The first point, on funding, is news to me. Yes, the availability of VC here is correlated with more Bay Area startups being funded. It doesn't mean that your startup will automatically be funded just because you're located here - the competition for funding is as strong as the competition for talent. I meet people doing self-funded startups all the time. The differentiator is whether you want to be the next Facebook vs. traditional profit model. Yes, the funded web-2.0-ish startups get most of the press here, it doesn't mean that no one is doing it another way. Yes, the competition for talent here is fierce. Right now I'm looking for a CSS expert, no programming required, and even that is nearly impossible to find. However, I know I will find someone sooner or later because I'm located in SF. I shudder to think how hard this would be if I were in St. Louis or something, or even a less tech-centric city like Chicago. A few weeks ago I needed an expert Flex hacker to help with something I'm building, so I just called up my friends until I found one. Try doing that in the midwest. Also, I'm at the kind of small, traditional-profit-type company that DHH so admires. Hackers move here because SF is the best place on earth to be a hacker, and that fact mitigates in your favor when looking for talent.
andreyf 19y ago
This seems a direct contradiction to everything PG advocates ... no funding (not even seed funding). No VC's. No IPO. No buyout. Just doing what you love, without a boss, and getting paid well for it. Claiming a higher probability of happiness than the "funding" route. And yet, PG is eerily silent... does YC cater to people following the 37sig model? If one decides to stay a private company, how do investors ever make back money?
- pg 19y ago
  I've just been busy with other stuff today and I haven't read it. But the answer to your question is yes: Wufoo, for example, is very much following the 37 Signals model.
  - andreyf 19y ago
    If Wufoo stays private indefinitely, doesn't this clash with YC's business model? This probably stems from my naivete, but how do investors make money if a company has no intention of going public or being acquired?
    - pg 19y ago
      37 Signals will probably eventually be acquired. Bezos bet on that by investing in them, and he is pretty smart.
      - dhh 19y ago
        Not really, actually. This is in part why we turned down 30 VCs, but were interested in getting involved with Bezos. He's as interested as we are in making this a company that'll be around for 20 years. (And should that turn out not to be the case, Bezos is a minority investor and will have no power to force a sale). 37signals is not for sale now and probably never will be. We like what we're doing too much and are more than comfortable with just the simple financial success of a profitable business making dividends. Again, doesn't mean that our way is the only way. I'm just trying to do mine to encourage others to see it as a viable alternative to the funding -> sell out route.
obelix 19y ago
After reading this rant and listening to his talk in startup school, is DHH drinking too much of his own kool-aid? [I live in SF bay area and work in VC funded startups] I mean life is not just 37 signals? At some point in time, he has to come out and do another startup. Is he setting himself a trap of doing a very narrow set of startups?
- dhh 19y ago
  Why do I have to go out and do another startup? I don't work at a startup, I work at a company. I think this mentality is a big part of what's wrong with the startup culture in the Bay area. This notion that it's inevitable that you have to work for a long string of companies, better not get too attached to any one of them. Jason and I intend to make 37signals a company that'll last for 20 years. Maybe we won't succeed, lots of businesses fail, but that's at least our goal. It's a sad state of affair where such a simple goal is looked upon with suspicion and disbelief.

108 points by johns 19y ago

The smart businesses know you don't want to be in San Francisco - there are too many distractions. You want to be somewhere lame, like San Carlos, so that people don't have anything to do besides work. edit: I guess I should have added the ";)" JUST KIDDING!

thaumaturgy 19y ago
Bluh. Dunno about you, but I get badly demotivated if all I'm doing is working.

gojomo 19y ago

Much of the "go big with other people's money" culture is by design. People are naturally risk-averse -- moreso than pools of capital would prefer. Capital wants to maximize expected return, and will smooth out the variance by diversification, rather than trading away raw expected return for stability.

kyro 19y ago

His first argument seems to do more with the teams themselves than the surrounding area. Temptation is found anywhere, whether it's a big office in the bay area, a huge flat in Chicago, or me supersizing my McDonald's combo #2. If you're not disciplined with your money, you're bound to fail regardless of location. Sounds like he's making a generalization about programmers, too.

comatose_kid 19y ago
As a Silicon Valley resident who has lived in an inexpensive place, I think you have to be more disciplined with your money and time if you live in the Bay Area.

kennyroo 19y ago

I wonder if DHH means SF proper, or if he's actually talking about the entire Bay Area. The Peninsula (Palo Alto, San Mateo) and the South Bay (Mountain View, San Jose, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale) are home to the popular web sites used around the world. The issues you would deal with living in SF differ pretty dramatically from the ones you'd deal with living anywhere else in the Bay Area. (Except the expense, which is bad everywhere.)

dnaquin 19y ago

No one's mentioned competition? Along the lines of start small, regional and expand. It's easy to differentiate yourself as a regional online application. Anywhere else.

thaumaturgy 19y ago

I agree. I live in Grass Valley, in the Sierra foothills. Turns out, we've got a solid little tech base here, in a rural area. I never wanted to go the VC route, so the conditions here have made it much easier for me to bootstrap as a consultant, and make lots of professional connections. In my case, I'll ultimately be more successful starting out here, than I think I would have in the Bay Area.

gibsonf1 19y ago

DHH talked about lifestyle at Startup camp, and lifestyle is the key reason to want to be in San Francisco. It is simply a great City to live in with the added benefit that almost any escape to the natural world, like skiiing, sailing, etc etc, is immediately available. The downside is some added cost, but the costs here are comparable to Southbay locations and other major Cities. So if you want to build a sustainable business with a lifestyle that you want to enjoy for the long-term, San Francisco is an ideal location.

menloparkbum 19y ago
I love the bay area. DHH has a point, but for the wrong reasons. The VC/Web 2.0 echosphere is easy to ignore. The simple reason it is hard to start a business in the Bay Area without investment is because it is so expensive.
9oliYQjP 19y ago
San Francisco is a great city. But there are other great cities too. I for one, love where I live in Toronto. There is a general perception that Toronto is just another American city except it happens to be in Canada. That is flat out inaccurate and my colleague one office over who just emigrated from California and another American colleague who setup shop here after getting his Ph.D. from Harvard will attest to that. At a conference I attended yesterday, a British speaker asked which day "here" was fireworks day and some Americans piped up "July 4th" to which a whole bunch of us miffed Canadians shot back "July 1st!!!! Geez you're not in the U.S.":-) Anyways, Toronto is not just another American city although I have heard it shares a lot of characteristics with San Francisco culturally. I live right downtown in Toronto, and while I have a car, I like to walk or bike places. I managed to find a great office that is a 5 minute walk from where I live and it is situated about 500 m from two major subway lines, close to the biggest university and one major college, a hop-skip-and-jump from the museum and art gallery, and countless other great places. I walk out my front door and within 200 m is a great café, a patisserie, a pub, health food restaurant (with food that actually tastes good), etc. I know more of my neighbours here than I did when I lived in a Toronto suburb. I don't think the key is to live in San Francisco. I think the key is to get the hell out of the suburban hell holes that riddle North America like cancerous spots on an otherwise healthy lung, and find cities in which you can live that offer culture, art, helpful business communities (Google "Toronto BIAs"), understanding government, and diversity with respect to people and industries (e.g., don't live in a one-hit wonder industry city). I can understand that the proximity to the Valley is a huge selling point of San Francisco. You have to remember most of the people telling you to move to San Francisco are doing so because they want to invest in you and they can only do that if they can keep a close eye on you. If you're not looking for investment from those people, then live somewhere else. I mean, there's some cool stuff coming out of Toronto. Check these guys out: http://www.ideeinc.com/ http://www.ideeinc.com/.

deleted 19y ago

[deleted]

geebee 19y ago

San Francisco is an interesting place. I live in SF, and I know a lot of programmers (and other tech workers) who live in SF, but I doubt that more than a third of them actually work in SF proper. Most of us engage in long and soul destroying drives to sterile office buildings in the midst of pedestrian-unfriendly parking lots on the peninsula and in the south bay. And we pay a lot for the privilege. I think that other cities, like Portland, Seattle, Austin in the US (and maybe Barcelona, Copenhagen internationally) might actually be better places to work. I wouldn't leave SF, but I grew up here and have family around. If I were starting out, I'd definitely consider other cities.

jamiequint 19y ago
+1 for portland, its a great place to live
tx 19y ago
I can't believe you put Portland and Austin in the same sentence. Nothing wrong with Portland, but Austin is simply in another league: I don't believe there is another place in US with such combination of technology, nightlife and dating scenes. I do feel sorry for all guys in their 20s living in Bay Area.
- SwellJoe 19y ago
  I've lived and started a business in both Austin and Silicon Valley. If you're starting a tech business the valley is a lot better. I miss the weather and the live music scene in Austin, but the tech startup climate is orders of magnitude better in the valley. I'll go back to Austin when I've built the business that I want to build. Until then, I'm staying where the ground is most fertile.
- geebee 19y ago
  That's funny - I actually feel sorry for all the guys in their 30s living in SF (and that includes me)! Technology, nightlife, and dating seems pretty great in SF. And when you have no obligations, you can take advantage of all of that. Most of the programmers I know are now in their 30s with small children. We're trying to figure out how to pay a mortgate and preschool costs that easily exceed $1000/month. Salaries are high here, and two income families can swing it. But I have realized that high costs are toxic to freedom. Yeah, if you score huge with a startup you'll have enough money be free of the daily grind, but that isn't really in the cards for most of us, even if we take a real crack at it. I know people who have cashed out of the real estate market in SF and moved to Austin, and they absolutely love it. I think I'd enjoy it there, too. I think that it's probably easier to gain financial independence and start living on your own terms in other cities. And these don't have to be crappy lame places - these are really entertaining places to live. In some ways, I think the cost structure of SF makes it a less entertaining place to be, because people have to make more decisions based on paying the mortgage than doing something creative. But my wife and I have a huge extended family in SF (parents, grandparents, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc...). I've actually tried to leave, but just I can't do it. And to me, cost is the only problem - if you have the dough, then for a certain type of person, SF may be the most pleasant place to live in the US.

quellhorst 19y ago

Are you sure you want to listen to someone who has never lived in San Francisco? How can you measure the benefits of being around people and businesses that are similar? Its possible to trade stocks anywhere, but why do companies setup in New York or London? If you don't want to take someone else's money to build your business, then don't. If you lived in Las Vegas would you automatically become a gambler?

tptacek 19y ago
I don't know. Why don't you ask FeedBurner?
- sabat 19y ago
  I think that -- by pointing out that there has been only one successful startup in Chicago (37Signals does not count; it's not really a startup, just a small business) -- that you just underscored the argument for the Bay Area.
  - condor 19y ago
    if a startup is not a small business, what is it?
    - sabat 19y ago
      It's a small business that is attempting to become either a large business or part of another large business. 37Signals is neither; it's about six people who want the company to remain small and independent. (I have no problem with that.)
      - tptacek 19y ago
        It's not 37Signals's goal to stay "small"; it's their goal to grow revenue instead of people and real estate.
  - tptacek 19y ago

webwright 19y ago

If crazy growth, outside investment, and M&A are your goals, being in the Valley is the place to be. Especially if you are aiming for a consumer app. No question. If you're going the "DHH path" (profitable lifestyle business, limited outside investment), it probably doesn't matter much.

vlad 19y ago
This is really personally my remaining annoyance with News.YC. Too often, people either agree with a submission, or they disagree with a submission. There are too few posts per day that critically think about what is being discussed. In this case, I don't remember seeing one post about following a combination of strategies at once (if there were a couple of posts, that doesn't make the situation any less sad.) Making a smart product, having a strategy to grow, and offering a free viral version as well as a paid version that pays your bills is the way to go! In fact, having an abundance of free customers will increase the chance you NEED investment, not just the fact that VC's will be more interested. They're more interested because they know you will need money! If you have a paid version that pays your operating costs, and gives value, you can keep working on your startup indefinitely. It's also another way to get VC's interested. But except in this case, you logically won't be a little bitch. Instead of having to fake confidence while your cash flow has brought you down to nothing (more likely below nothing), and the only reason you're getting a good valuation is because there are many, many VCs around, and they like that you went to Stanford or something, you will instead be in a situation where you proved people will pay for your product and you don't really need to time selling your company or getting investment in the right cycle of the economy. So which option is better? Whichever one is better at the time! That's what DHH has been saying. If he actually needed investors for a venture, I'm sure he would surely take the money he needs. But he doesn't, so he doesn't. There's no wrong way. But he's wrong because Silicon Valley gives you that option to pursue VC's in case you need to, and the quality of life seems to be among the best places in the world. And it's sure better than living in the middle of nowhere. And it's great that you can meet cool people and ask them feedback about your apps without receiving questions like "why are you doing a startup" (because working for most companies is a rip off), "wow you must be rich" (people think it's rich people who do startups), and "can you fix my computer" (no explanation needed.) I like YCombinator's approach, where one can launch and see what happens for a few months before figuring out the best steps -- more angel funding, VC funding, multiple VC funding, selling, quitting, changing an idea, or even having a paid version.

johnrob 19y ago

There are a lot more chicks in other cities. This might assist founders during the low points of a startup.

tptacek 19y ago
Please check your gender bias at the login page.

pibefision 19y ago

I'm in Buenos Aires. The cost of living here it's 1/6 compared to San Francisco. And we have a lot of talent, cheap bandwidth and resources (apple Computers, big linux community, etc). Also, real state its growing fast. If you are planing to visit BA, msg me! :)

ichverstehe 19y ago
I've been to Argentina and I'm deeply in love with Buenos Aires – but heard that it's getting rather expensive living there fulltime. How is the job situation and such, for foreigners?
- pibefision 19y ago
  You can rent an appartment for U$S 300/month in a very accesible and centric place. You don't need a car here. There is plenty of work on IT, but we are talking about startupping here, so yo have everything. This country does not request visa for work or tourist, so you will not have any problem. Mail me pablocorral at gmail.
- wallflower 19y ago
  Fascinating and funny account of the tech scene in Buenos Aires from an unlikely newsgroup message: http://osdir.com/ml/culture.people.kragen.journal/2007-09/msg00000.html http://osdir.com/ml/culture.people.kragen.journal/2007-09/ms...
kirubakaran 19y ago
I plan to visit BA coming northern winter. I couldn't find your email. My email is (gmail kirubakaran)
daniel-cussen 19y ago
Santiago is nice, though for different reasons. Good weather, cheap, still a big city.

dbreunig 19y ago

There should be another point under TALENT. Set up shop near a college with a strong tech program.

tptacek 19y ago
And there should be a sub-bullet for "HARD TO COME BY IN THE BAY AREA". Yes, there's clearly more of it in the Bay in gross terms. That doesn't mean you're getting access to any of it: new startups in San Francisco are totally, completely outgunned.

sutro 19y ago

I'm glad you enjoy those wonderful Chicago winters, DHH.

tptacek 19y ago
I'm glad you enjoy paying $2000 a month for a 600sqft San Francisco studio, sutro.
- philippp 19y ago
  Are you just trolling now? For the record, my roommate and I are paying $1,800 for a 1400 sq foot two bedroom. And that's a lot, when I compare with my friends who have lived here for more than a year.
jrockway 19y ago
Winter in Chicago isn't that bad. Do you think "wow, this is great weather" every day during the winter? No. But the spring, summer, and fall is very enjoyable. The problem with Chicago is that there are no other hackers around (all the tech people work for banks, and end up being as interesting as you'd imagine), and there are no 24-hour coffee shops, at least not near me. Chicago is a good place to be if you want to be alone. I guess it's "a big city" but it sure doesn't feel like it at times.
- tptacek 19y ago
  Not at all true! The difference between the Chicago hacker scene and the San Francisco hacker scene is, you have to go out of your way to find the Chicago hacker scene, and you can't avoid the San Francisco hacker scene. I've worked for two startups here, both successful, and know of plenty more. And of course, "Feedburner Feedburner Feedburner 37Signals". Should there be a monthly meetup for people like us in Chicago? Absolutely. I set one up for security people (http://www.sockpuppet.org/chisec http://www.sockpuppet.org/chisec) and it's been pretty successful --- at least, if its spinoff (http://www.citysec.org http://www.citysec.org) is to be believed. If 40 people will show up each month to swap drinks for infosec stories, surely more would show up to talk about Social Networking for Pets.

cbryan 19y ago

I'm surprised that noone's really talking about money here. The Bay Area has one of the highest costs of living of any city in the country. That means its going to take that much more of your time to work, to make money, and to live. If you're spending your time working to live, that means you're not using that time to work on your projects. Right now I'm taking a culture hit. Living in Worcester, MA certainly doesn't put me at the center of startup culture, but Boston and Providence are close enough. I can take the bus/train and find myself surrounded by technically oriented people. A low cost of living in this town is what allows me to work less and affords me the free time to work on my projects. To me, this time to work is alot more valuable. (Oh, there is culture in Worcester. You just have to dig. :)

kingkongrevenge 19y ago
Not to mention that California is probably the most fiscally screwed up and one of the most tax heavy states in the country.
- ardit33 19y ago
  You forget to mention that I make about twice as much here in SF as I did in Boston. And my lifestyle and quality of life improved dramatically... I have an uncle in Worcester, and I visit it once and a while, and I think it is really boring.

rob 19y ago

I think people are too focused on the logistics of "startups" and getting investors instead of actually creating websites that make money. The fact of the matter is, there are tons of individuals across the country that make thousands of dollars a month creating websites themselves. They don't seek funding, they either hire a designer/programmer or do it themselves. They don't have a beta, they launch whatever they they are making. They don't have one obscure idea that they think they need to go out and pay $5,000 to form an official company for, but instead have a couple of useful websites that generate money. If they start to make a lot of money, then they'll open a LLC for tax benefits. On top of that, I'd bet a majority of them have no computer science degree or the knowledge that the hackers here do, which means anyone here can make as much as them since they won't need to pay for programmers.

alaskamiller 19y ago

You know none of this really matters. Be a rebel. Live everywhere as often as you can. I've lived in Taipei, Los Angeles, LA suburb, east San Jose, Cupertino, San Diego, Pendleton, Lejeune, and now back in Cupertino with constant visits to San Francisco and I can honestly say... it doesn't really matter where you live. Learn as much as you can. Make as many friends as you can. And make sure you always have a WiFi connection.

sabat 19y ago

Flamebait. From a guy who's barely ever been here. From a guy who grew up in an ugly place with lousy weather (Denmark) and moved to a place that's remarkably similar to that. DHH generalizes wildly in this rant -- usually an indication of anger and jealousy rather than reason.

rob 19y ago
What is he angry and jealous of? I'm pretty sure he can afford to move there if he wants to.
- sabat 19y ago
  I'm just guessing, but I'd say he's intimidated. Usually people who are frequently accused of arrogance are overcompensating. He doesn't like the Bay Area because so much happens here, and he's not a part of it. Afford? DHH is not rich.
  - dhh 19y ago
    I actually really like the Bay area as pleasant place to be. My argument is that you shouldn't move there to start a company of the product/price/profit variety. And this doesn't really have anything to do with cost. 37signals is a multi-million dollar company and we (including the founders) could certainly afford to move to San Francisco.

ivankirigin 19y ago

This issue is so much less important than other matters - and heavily context dependent. But I find the ability for two reasonable and diametrically opposing opinions interesting. I just moved to SF from Boston. I think more people understand startups in the Valley, making hiring with equity displacing cash more of an option. I also think my startup's success will heavily depend on distribution and business development deals. That makes moving to a concentrated area more important.

acgourley 19y ago

Just because there are some crap companies being started, and some crap investments being made, doesn't mean everything coming out of the bay area is as DHH describes. I'm working at a company thats doing quite well, and will continue to do quite well. Being close to the bay area was essential, so essential that the founders both relocate from their homes for most of the year to be here.

brianmckenzie 19y ago

I loved DHH's speech at startup school, but having lived in Chicago and now living in SF, I have to disagree with him on this one. His point seems twofold: 1) The availability of funding in the Bay Area tempts people to take it whether they need it or not, and 2) The competition for top talent is stronger here than anywhere else. The first point, on funding, is news to me. Yes, the availability of VC here is correlated with more Bay Area startups being funded. It doesn't mean that your startup will automatically be funded just because you're located here - the competition for funding is as strong as the competition for talent. I meet people doing self-funded startups all the time. The differentiator is whether you want to be the next Facebook vs. traditional profit model. Yes, the funded web-2.0-ish startups get most of the press here, it doesn't mean that no one is doing it another way. Yes, the competition for talent here is fierce. Right now I'm looking for a CSS expert, no programming required, and even that is nearly impossible to find. However, I know I will find someone sooner or later because I'm located in SF. I shudder to think how hard this would be if I were in St. Louis or something, or even a less tech-centric city like Chicago. A few weeks ago I needed an expert Flex hacker to help with something I'm building, so I just called up my friends until I found one. Try doing that in the midwest. Also, I'm at the kind of small, traditional-profit-type company that DHH so admires. Hackers move here because SF is the best place on earth to be a hacker, and that fact mitigates in your favor when looking for talent.

andreyf 19y ago

This seems a direct contradiction to everything PG advocates ... no funding (not even seed funding). No VC's. No IPO. No buyout. Just doing what you love, without a boss, and getting paid well for it. Claiming a higher probability of happiness than the "funding" route. And yet, PG is eerily silent... does YC cater to people following the 37sig model? If one decides to stay a private company, how do investors ever make back money?

pg 19y ago
I've just been busy with other stuff today and I haven't read it. But the answer to your question is yes: Wufoo, for example, is very much following the 37 Signals model.
- andreyf 19y ago
  If Wufoo stays private indefinitely, doesn't this clash with YC's business model? This probably stems from my naivete, but how do investors make money if a company has no intention of going public or being acquired?
  - pg 19y ago
    37 Signals will probably eventually be acquired. Bezos bet on that by investing in them, and he is pretty smart.
    - dhh 19y ago
      Not really, actually. This is in part why we turned down 30 VCs, but were interested in getting involved with Bezos. He's as interested as we are in making this a company that'll be around for 20 years. (And should that turn out not to be the case, Bezos is a minority investor and will have no power to force a sale). 37signals is not for sale now and probably never will be. We like what we're doing too much and are more than comfortable with just the simple financial success of a profitable business making dividends. Again, doesn't mean that our way is the only way. I'm just trying to do mine to encourage others to see it as a viable alternative to the funding -> sell out route.

obelix 19y ago

After reading this rant and listening to his talk in startup school, is DHH drinking too much of his own kool-aid? [I live in SF bay area and work in VC funded startups] I mean life is not just 37 signals? At some point in time, he has to come out and do another startup. Is he setting himself a trap of doing a very narrow set of startups?

dhh 19y ago
Why do I have to go out and do another startup? I don't work at a startup, I work at a company. I think this mentality is a big part of what's wrong with the startup culture in the Bay area. This notion that it's inevitable that you have to work for a long string of companies, better not get too attached to any one of them. Jason and I intend to make 37signals a company that'll last for 20 years. Maybe we won't succeed, lots of businesses fail, but that's at least our goal. It's a sad state of affair where such a simple goal is looked upon with suspicion and disbelief.