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A female engineer's opinion on why there are fewer women in tech

• modbait 8y ago
  > Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. As an unattractive computer nerd, I've been regularly reminded my entire life that I am creepy. Skipping.
  • StreamBright 8y ago
    Dont give up, learn the basics of human interactions and get interested in people, your life will change.
    • ninkendo 8y ago
      I think it's a bit unfair to assume that people who are considered creepy must not know basic human interactions. A lot of people's initial opinion of you is guided subconsciously by how attractive you are. It's foolish to believe that looks don't play a huge role.
      • wilsonnb 8y ago
        A lot of the attractiveness that they focus on isn't necessarily unchangeable, though. Many people can significantly improve the first impression they make by having a nice haircut that fits your head shape and clothes that fit your body shape well, match each other well, and aren't out of place for the current season.
        • modbait 8y ago
          So instead of "befriend her", you're suggesting "get new clothes and a nice haircut and then befriend her"? No thanks--I have enough friends.
          • wilsonnb 8y ago
            I'm suggesting that people who feel like others unfairly judge them as creepy and don't like it use the modifiable aspects of their physical appearance to change how people see them. Apparently you don't care if you are perceived as creepy, which is fine, but other people do care and would be interested in doing something about it.
      • yosito 8y ago
        Science says creepiness is more about how well you can follow social norms, not about how attractive you are. https://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal-article/189a70c9d3a2a3218006ee96d3dce0be/mcandrew2016.pdf https://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal-article/189a70c9d3a2a3...
    • scrollaway 8y ago
      People who do that get regularly called creepy for just trying to talk to women. You're telling someone not to give up on the very thing getting them called out as "a creep". Hell in some countries, you get called creepy for doing that for trying to befriend anyone outside of very specific social situations. When I was in Stockholm, approaching strangers and striking up a conversation was seen as generally rude.
      • jochung 8y ago
        Yep. For an ideology that seems extremely concerned about how words like "chairman" or "craftsmanship" are perpetuating harmful gender biases, feminists sure never seem to notice that "creep" and "coward" are implicitly male.
      • yosito 8y ago
        Creepiness just means that you don't follow social norms so people aren't sure if you're a threat or not. Learning social norms will help. It's science: https://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal-article/189a70c9d3a2a3218006ee96d3dce0be/mcandrew2016.pdf https://dacemirror.sci-hub.tw/journal-article/189a70c9d3a2a3...
    • erobbins 8y ago
      Advice like this is similar to telling a depressed person to just be happier.
      • blattimwind 8y ago
        https://i.huffpost.com/gen/2271298/thumbs/o-ROBOT-HUGS-570.jpg?6 https://i.huffpost.com/gen/2271298/thumbs/o-ROBOT-HUGS-570.j...
      • rhino369 8y ago
        The treatment social anxiety is often more exposure. Nothing is worse than just avoiding the things that give you anxiety.
    • thaumaturgy 8y ago
      Speaking from personal experience, this advice isn't as bad as the votes and replies are making it look. I spent most of my time as a kid screwing around with computers and other whatsits, so I was really withdrawn and socially awkward after high school, and gave off the kind of accidental creeper aura that people here are talking about. (A mix of shyness, over-sharing, nonexistent small talk, and bad body language.) Then I took a break from the tech industry for a while and ended up getting a job as a climbing instructor. It was an amazing change in a short period of time. I learned how to socialize quickly and easily with people I'd never met before, went out for beers, learned how to show people that they could trust me with their safety or their kid's safety really fast (because kids' birthday parties were a big revenue stream...). Any kind of job or hobby that requires you to be social to do well at it should work just fine. (Retail and food service don't count.) I'm sure there are people who are so naturally awkward that this is useless advice, but I suspect there are far more people who could benefit from spending more time around people than they do around electronics.
      • rexaliquid 8y ago
        Organized roleplaying campaigns could be a good social hobby that is fun for the nerd brain, too.
      • StreamBright 8y ago
        I dont mind HN mob downvotes, I hope it helped OP
  • blablabla123 8y ago
    Some time ago we moved into a new office and I placed myself next to the only girl in our tean. Shortly after I felt a little creepy but she actually seemed to appreciate it, also because she mostly got non-technical tasks. So I also thought some technical collaboration would be possible, in fact we once talked about that. Anyways, a week later the rest of our team moved in, placing themselves at the other end of the room from where we were sitting. So the other day my boss approached me and said: hey look, why are you sitting here? Move to us. Yay, now I'm sitting in the corner and I can talk to nobody! Long story short, WTF. Other people make sure you feel creepy, if don't do already.
  • deleted 8y ago
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  • mywittyname 8y ago
    I know the feeling. Something society doesn't accept that attraction plays a huge role in social development at a young age. An "ugly" person is not likely to develop the experience needed to feel comfortable befriending a member of the opposite sex at a young age. The other person can't help but be uncomfortable with the idea that you might be romantically interested in them. It gets better with age though. I've found that telling women I'm married makes them much, much more friendly and engaging.
    • hkmurakami 8y ago
      I feel like I am writing something ridiculous, but it's not uncommon for an unmarried woman to wear a wedding band to preempt advances by men. Could we have a world where unmarried men who are concerned about being perceived as making an advance will wear a wedding band to send a signal that they are not interested in the woman they are talking to? (obviously some/many married men make inappropriate advances but perhaps this helps somewhat?)
  • deleted 8y ago
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  • groceryheist 8y ago
    There are also female computer nerds that are not conventionally attractive. It might be worth trying to make friends with someone less intimidating.
  • JPKab 8y ago
    I have a talented, and wonderful, female dev on my team. One thing though:. She has described to me some of the male coders as being "creepers". When I asked for specifics, she couldn't provide them. She simply stated it was a "feeling". The one commonality I found with the creepers is that they are pretty clearly below average in looks. The question is whether this is a correlation or a casual factor. But definitely challenged her to try to focus on actions rather than "vibes".
    • thucydidesofusa 8y ago
      It's funny how that works. I heard one man say to a woman that he didn't schedule a meeting for a particular time because he saw that she had a conflicting meeting. Later that same woman described (to another woman) that the man had been "creeping on her calendar". If it weren't for society's deference to women's feelings, that would probably be read as a hostile comment.
      • jrs95 8y ago
        There's definitely a bit of a double standard here. I overhear comments like this fairly regularly. It's just normal and accepted behavior. (I wouldn't go as far as to say society generally has "deference to women's feelings", though.)
        • thucydidesofusa 8y ago
          A sizable fraction of restraining orders are granted on women's feelings. And look at conversations around the social relations of men and women - women have rights and men have responsibilities. Women get to abort fetuses and unilaterally give children up for adoption, men get locked up if they dont pay child support. If you're a man go into public with a woman and get her to cry. Measure how long it takes until someone angrily asks you "what did you do".
          • deleted 8y ago
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  • southphillyman 8y ago
    Maybe this observation is more apt for dating interactions vs. coworker relationships but......intelligence seems to be VERY high on women's checklist after a certain age. Not to mention the stability/security that can be leveraged via trading on your intelligence.
  • adrianratnapala 8y ago
    Awkwardly, StreamBright and ninkendo are both right. My best advice about threading the needle is to concentrate on processes rather than goals. Don't worry about befriending anyone; but recognise that you have a little leeway to make small-talk to any human before it becomes odd. Use it (with everyone) for practice at getting funnier and more charming. Have fun practicing, let results take care of themselves. Something similar goes for becoming less "unattractive". Don't worry about your body shape, but learn to enjoy exercise (perhaps you do this already). Or with fashion and personal grooming, figure out what you like and so develop your personal style as you bathe and dress each day.
  • yosito 8y ago
    You're conflating attraction and friendship. Being creepy means that you seem to have unwelcome intentions. If you're saying that your attractiveness is the reason you've been told you're creepy, the reason for your creepiness is that your intentions are to attract someone, not to befriend them. Fix your intentions if you don't want to be creepy. And listen, I'm not saying you shouldn't want to attract someone, just that if another person isn't attracted to you, it's creepy to "befriend" them while hiding other desires. You've got two options in that case, 1) change your desires and genuinely appreciate them as a friend or aquaintence (it is possible, but takes a certain level of emotional maturity) or 2) Be straightforward and respectful about your desires, and then respect their boundaries if they're not interested realizing that no one is obligated to reciprocate anything.
    • jessaustin 8y ago
      There is no reason to assume GP was motivated by that intention, in whatever situation you're imagining. You do so from a position of privilege.
      • yosito 8y ago
        I'm not assuming anything about his intentions. I'm saying that to be labeled creepy literally means that someone is suspicious of your intentions. And the solution is to be clear about your intentions or, even better, your lack of intentions when they are unwelcome.
        • jessaustin 8y ago
          Your post literally says: "the reason for your creepiness is that your intentions are to attract someone". GP's post never refers to intentions or situations or behaviors or anything. You are castigating GP for intentions and behaviors that exist entirely in your imagination.
          • yosito 8y ago
            I qualified that statement by saying "If you're saying that your attractiveness is the reason you've been told you're creepy...", because if that's what he's saying, he's admitting his intentions and I don't have to assume. If he's not saying that, then my statement doesn't apply.
  • logfromblammo 8y ago
    As a nerd that grew up with nerd friends, I have seen firsthand how unsolicited social overtures may be cruelly rebuffed or punished. When one of the consequences may be an uncomfortable conversation with the dean or with HR, it is completely unsurprising that male nerds will not make the first move socially. They have been trained to not do it. Every last behavior that is rewarded as "flirting" from an attractive person is punished as "creepy" when it comes from an unattractive person. The best an ugly can hope for is to suppress their natural social grooming behaviors, and just be relentlessly neutral. It's much better than "creepy", as it still allows for a level of acquaintanceship that makes it possible to display non-physical qualities, such as a particularly well-developed skill, or a sense of humor. "Go befriend a girl... it's not creepy." is something only a non-ugly person would think to say. Of course it's not creepy for them. Parent post is absolutely correct. If you're not pretty, it's creepy. If m'lady wants a friend, m'lady may approach on her own terms.
  • dbasedweeb 8y ago
    Have you decided that your looks are the reason, or been told? You may be assuming that it’s your looks, when it frankly isn’t. In my experience creepy usually means creepy, and creepy poeple lack insight... which is part of what makes them creepy. It might not be looks, but behavior, a sense of anger or discomfort, etc. Women often have to go by their gut instinct with guys, because if they don’t it can end in them being very badly hurt. Any heuristic is likely to generate false positives. Someone who is very anxious or socially awkward may come across as dangerous simply because of the heightened emotional state and failure to respond to social cues. It may also be that there is a strong correlation between “socially awkward” and “unattractive” for obvious reasons. So again, I wouldn’t assume that looks represent cause rather than correlation. For an analogy, it could be like someone who is afraid of dogs being disproportionately bitten by dogs who react to the fear that person has of being bitten.
• Symmetry 8y ago
  I notice that the big decline in female enrollment in CS came around the time the Hollywood stereotype of a computer programmer changed from a well-intentioned labcoated professional whose creation might have gotten a bit out of control to a basement dwelling hacker carrying out a solo fight against the bullies, the man, etc.
  • ghaff 8y ago
    Which also corresponded to home PCs and gaming consoles becoming common. So computers became more about a hobby with often limited social interaction as opposed to being solely about something that college students and adults pursuing computing as a profession did. Which arguably also led to this idea that if you haven’t been doing computing recreationally since you were a kid you obviously are not Passionate enough to join $disruptive_startup.
    • walshemj 8y ago
      I have to admit if you only started programming after you went to University your going to struggle with the course and afterwards work. You would not expect to do a Degree in English lit and have done no reading of the cannon before getting to university.
      • mjmahone17 8y ago
        The idea that, if you have no experience programming going into college, you’ll struggle, is strange to me. About a third of my graduating CS class had no prior experience. Did we take more time to finish the first semester projects? Sometimes. But after the first semester prior experience seemed to have very little effect on class performance.
        • ghaff 8y ago
          I think it does depend on the curriculum. I have experience programming, although I don’t really do it professionally. I’ve taken an intro programming MOOC course from an elite school and I have trouble believing someone coming in completely cold would have a chance. (Admittedly in a campus environment there would be TAs and other students but the contrast to when I took intro programming at school was night and day.)
• jandrese 8y ago
  Interesting that popular perception is that it is hard to be a woman in STEM because you get so much unwanted attention, but in this case it was exactly the opposite. She wasn't able to find lab partners for projects in male majority classes and felt lonely.
  • throwaway84742 8y ago
    I just don’t see how that could be. When I was studying, we had 2 girls in a peer group of roughly 90 people. All they had to do to find a lab partner is have a pulse. Interestingly, both have graduated, and neither is using her degree now.
    • slimshady94 8y ago
      What is this phenomenon called? I've seen it plenty of times; there must be some research etc on this.
      • throwaway84742 8y ago
        The word you’re looking for is “chivalry”. An outmoded concept in these modern times, but alive and well back then.
    • chrisseaton 8y ago
      > I just don’t see how that could be. I'm not sure what you mean? Why would the women be inherently attractive as lab partners? Many men in the lab would probably think that the women would be weaker, or wouldn't know how to interact with them, so wouldn't want them as lab partners. And the men may have a higher chance of knowing each other already from outside the class in sports teams and fraternities, so they would team up with people they already know rather than someone they didn't.
      • throwaway84742 8y ago
        Why would they be “weaker”? I don’t get what you’re trying to say.
• jdavis703 8y ago
  The first part of this had great citations to cite that women are more social. Where the data was lacking is that 1) software is perceived as anti-social and 2) that other anti-social careers face similar problems to software engineering. For example if socialization was such a critical decider, why are some many women maids or professional housekeepers? Most people in this career don't get much on-the-job socialization. Or what about accounting and book keeping; which is a professional, white collar career that also happens to employ more women than men? While socialization may be a part of the equation, there's a lot more going on here and simply blaming women for being "too social" just panders to common stereotypes.
  • shmerl 8y ago
    > Most people in this career don't get much on-the-job socialization. Or what about accounting and book keeping; which is a professional, white collar career that also happens to employ more women than men? Another question would be, why in the early days of computing, programming was predominantly seen as women's work? Does it mean its social factor changed somehow? See: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programming-used-to-be-womens-work-718061/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/computer-programmi...
  • theparanoid 8y ago
    "why are so many women maids or professional housekeepers?" Same reason so many men are janitors.
  • 0x4f3759df 8y ago
    >software is perceived as anti-social My experience is that this perception has a strong grounding in reality.
    • blattimwind 8y ago
      IME about 90 % of that is enforced and actively pursued by the workers. E.g. preferring HCCH-based reviews over pair reviewing, "don't disturb me", [noise-cancelling] headphones, locked office doors, mail and instant messaging over talking and so forth
• montzark 8y ago
  Thoughts about picture "The APMs at a social event in Napa"? The lady is kind of left out. Not sure if it's american hover-hand culture, but to me it looks one of the problems.
• ajkjk 8y ago
  Most of the theories I've seen about the women-in-tech gap don't resonate with my experience because there was a very obvious 'women-in-tech' gap in about... 5th grade? in my (typical, I think) American elementary school. It was nerdy boys, almost entirely (I remember one exception), who wanted to stay after school playing games on the iMacs in our classroom, and I am pretty sure that it would only be the boys in my class who might have, for instance, received and gotten excited about a copy of "C++ for dummies" in ~2000 (granted, the book was terrible and I didn't really start coding for 6 more years, but the spark was already there). Sure, video-game-interest is not the same as going into tech, but it correlated a lot as I grew up -- these kids ended up being the ones who were, like, coding on graphics calculators or in HTML/CSS a couple years later. There were a few more girls involved by then, but the ratio was still very skewed.
  • nicoburns 8y ago
    An interesting data point here ia that girls at all-girls schools tend to take much more interest in STEM subjects, which suggests that he issue might be more to do with social percpetions of what is for girls and boys rather than inherent interest differing between genders.
    • vowelless 8y ago
      Can you share sources on this? I'd be very curious to see how this changes relative to coed schools.
    • Zarath 8y ago
      Maybe, but there is selection bias when looking at just girls who go to all-girls schools. Assuming they are mostly private, this would likely select for wealthier families, which may have a correlation with STEM careers. Furthermore, girls from all-girls schools have parents that are willing to enroll them in all-girls schools, which likely correlates with a certain personality type, whatever that may be.
      • wskinner 8y ago
• cde-v 8y ago
  > Compared to almost any other industry, women are underrepresented in technology. Except for the many industries where women dominate like: Preschool and kindergarten education Nursing Accounting Social Work Psychology
  • deleted 8y ago
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  • Zarath 8y ago
    Your quote agrees with you. Women are underrepresented in tech compared to other industries.
    • klipt 8y ago
      I think the point is there are only so many women to go around, so to have more women in tech we need to pull women out of fields where they are overrepresented like nursing, teaching etc. Maximum diversity is not "100% women in every field". It's 50% women in every field. Women should be underrepresented relative to nursing, because they're vastly overrepresented in nursing.
      • troupe 8y ago
        Good point. If we feel we need to "fix" the number of women in CS, we also need to "fix" the number of women in nursing, accounting, education, etc.
  • crankylinuxuser 8y ago
    Note the pay on those careers. "Women's Careers" pay significantly less. And they're all 'emotional' and 'soft skill' jobs. That's a problem. Edit: So, at -3 currently. Is the -1's a "disagree" or "stfu"? Please state where I am wrong.
    • quickthrower2 8y ago
      Why these jobs pay less? That is capitalism at work. Tech jobs are now essential to maintain competitive edge and keep the big profits going at companies, and they want to bid up to get good talent. Even small barely surviving companies have to pay good $ to get developers etc. because of the market forces. OTOH lets take a daycare teacher. They are being paid ultimately from the money average people have left over having worked, paid their tax, mortgage, bills, food etc, given it to another company who has paid their overheads and finally paid the teacher their salary. (Forgetting government subsidies - but still...) There is no way this can be a large amount of money (unless you have 1 teacher to 30 kids, but then there are safety issues).
• eecks 8y ago
  > young men are less likely to approach women and invite them to join a study group or happy hour, poker night, or whatever else they do with their male peers/coworkers. As a man I've never been approached and invited to anything like this..
  • leshow 8y ago
    I wonder how many men get invited to the inverse 'girls night' also.
    • eli 8y ago
      gimmie a break
      • indoorfish 8y ago
        Post a productive comment.
  • mikeash 8y ago
    Maybe you should invite some others, then. Be the change you want to see, and all that.
    • wieghant 8y ago
      But I'd rather stay up all night and clear Black Temple.
• kazinator 8y ago
  > Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. "Honey, there is this random blogger who thinks I should befriend a girl in my company. It's supposedly not creepy or anything. What do you think?" If I didn't care what my wife thinks, I'd still have to think twice and consider the gender-political climate of the modern age. The mere perception of having some intention of wrongdoing can harm you. In all corporate ethics training courses, you're always hammered with the message of avoiding even the perception of a conflict of interests and such. Usually, those "avoid perception" messages are with regard to corruption. The rhetoric isn't used in sexual misconduct training, but the concept naturally carries over. If I'm to avoid creating so much as the perception that some official is being bribed into signing a deal, of course it must also be good to avoid so much as the perception that I have some sort of designs of a female coworker. I want simpler rules that are more general.
  • ryanobjc 8y ago
    Here's your simple rule: https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-for-men-who-dont-want-to-be-accused-of-sexual-harassment-73c45e0b49af https://medium.com/@annevictoriaclark/the-rock-test-a-hack-f... Quoting: "It’s as clear cut as this: Treat all women like you would treat Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson." and "But definitely don’t hit on her. It looks like she could kill you with the chair you’re sitting on." It's really that simple.
    • kazinator 8y ago
      If someone happens to idolize "The Rock", the rule doesn't go down very well. It possibly devolves to "behave like a bumbling star-struck fool around all women". Or possibly to "treat women like goddesses". Example: if I run a cafe, and idolize "The Rock", should I give every woman a free coffee and muffin, because that's what I would do if "The Rock" walked in? People who are famous get all sorts of unwanted attention that would easily amount to sexism or sexual misconduct if it were lavished upon a person because she's a woman. Fans want to get near you, touch you, take a picture with you and whatever.
      • 8y ago
• jtchang 8y ago
  Up till the middle of the article the arguments could be made either way (if we were somehow in a parallel universe and 75% of the CS workforce were females). The part that got me thinking was whether CS is less social compared to other industries and careers. I think that is the perception and reality. If by social we mean interaction with other human beings than a lot of the interaction we do is between a human and a computer. Not human to human. Of course there are lots of exceptions but expectations are there as well. The expectation that you are solving a problem as a group or by yourself. Even in a number of CS programs you can't work together on problems. We have programs that scan your homework to see if you "cheated". Other business classes I took though regularly focused on group projects early on. CS early on is about learning to code and interacting with computers.
• fortythirteen 8y ago
  > In addition to these perceptions about people in tech, tech actually is less social for women than for men. It’s harder for women to make friends and fit in, both in university classes and at tech companies. Because it’s unnatural or might be taken the wrong way, young men are less likely to approach women and invite them to join a study group or happy hour, poker night, or whatever else they do with their male peers/coworkers. They don’t just sit next to women without a desk neighbor, ask them unsolicited questions, or offer to help. They’re less likely to joke with them, complement them, or even chat with them casually. The exclusion is unintentional, not malicious, but made worse by the fact that women are more socially aware than men at this age. I wonder how much of that has to do with how young, male engineers are hammered with the social mores of creepy, harassing nerds pushed as one of the reasons for less women in tech. Maybe they're trying to take the safe route and just not interact.
• ebbv 8y ago
  Great article. Appreciate the point of view and I think all the advice is sound.
  • jiveturkey 8y ago
    Agreed. not a perfect article but much better than most on the subject. Factually presented and yet it rings on an emotional level.
• throwawy010101 8y ago
  "women are more social" wait I thought conclusions about the capabilities of people by gender are verboten ??
  • meowface 8y ago
    >I thought conclusions about the capabilities of people by gender are verboten Where did the author express this sentiment?
• thucydidesofusa 8y ago
  >Invest in social events: It can take a lot of time to set up opportunities for your team to hang out , but casual socializing is awesome for the extroverts on your team and crucial for retention... and go out of your way to include everyone. Going through this at work. The extroverts took over my department and now our (mandatory) team meetings have (mandatory) fun events that give extroverts time to brag about what they have going outside of work and give the extroverts an audience who can't refuse (the introverts who do the work). And it's awful for people who dislike forced socialization at work. And these are like 11 am meetings on Tuesday so it's dry and interrupts concentration workers. But this article didn't seem very interesting - these points have been discussed before and it struck me as the bleats of an attractive-enough women who's upset that she has to put in effort and other people aren't giving her the attention she feels entitled to. Say what you will about traditional corporate cultures, but things seem to work better for everyone when the decorum is universal, clear/well-documented, and free from empathetic demands.
  • scarythoughts 8y ago
    You are correct.
  • dang 8y ago
    > bleats of an attractive-enough women who's upset that she has to put in effort and other people aren't giving her the attention she feels entitled to Between this personal attack and the rest of your gender-war comments, we've banned this account for violating the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to post like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• cbradshaw 8y ago
  Is CS really “lauded as a haven for antisocial people?” Ouch. Some of the evidence in this article is anecdotal (female friend at a hackathon gets excluded by males, etc.). Has no one else seen the plethora of “Women in Tech” meet ups, events and hiring fairs? Anecdotally, I have several female friends that have interviewed and been hired at companies like Google, Facebook and Amazon. I understand this isn’t statistically significant but does the cause have to be the fault of men (being less social, being perceived as weird, not welcoming women to the industry)? Maybe there are less women in tech because women (generally) are less interested in the field?
  • indoorfish 8y ago
    Anecdotally as well, of the (few) women in the graduating class of my CS department all of them were hired almost instantly from a "Women in Tech" conference..Furthermore, I see anytime something become "glamorous" liking the idea of living in Marin and programming all day, there will be those who use any tactic into something they didn't start.
  • ravenstine 8y ago
    Such anecdotes are also exemplary of how a lot of women(meaning not all) fail to question why it is they are being excluded. I think much of that comes down to how a lot of women don't understand just how intimidating they can be to men. Women who are reading this should understand that you are undoubtedly intimidating at some level to some men out there. This is because we are not only frequently perceived as being "creepy", or trying to court women, but the perception is that society is asking a lot of specific treatment of women from men(one wrong word and we might have offended you somehow). Unless a man is attractive, it's much easier to avoid women all together. I'm not saying it's a perfect system. It's mostly flawed. But I just wish that women would have a little more compassion and understanding to the male perspective. This article and others like it come off as externalizing that's basically concluding that men are being themselves too much because of ignorance and therefore need to change their behavior to comply with the wants of women, even though the reverse isn't being demanded of women; not often will you hear a man in tech say that women just need to toughen up. (by the way, I'm not even implying that)
  • 8y ago
• tptacek 8y ago
  Are the rest of the STEM career paths seen as more social than CS? Is mathematics more social than CS? Because CS is almost (not quite: physics is almost as bad) unique among STEM specializations for its gender disparity. I talk regularly to academic math people (because cryptography) and the sense I have is that if anything, CS is far more social than the work they do --- to get anything significant done in technology, you have to coordinate and cooperate amongst teams of people. And yet if you go to a cryptography conference and then a technology convention, the difference will be starkly apparent: there are far more women in the former than the latter. I don't think this is a persuasive explanation for the whole phenomenon.
  • jrs95 8y ago
    I think part of the programmer stereotype is that you basically have to be socially handicapped to fit in. Which may draw more people like that in and keep more well adjusted (or socially conscious) people out. In general, it seems that from a relatively young age women are given the impression that "nerds" are to be avoided at all costs -- we're stereotypically "weird" (meaning creepy perverts). Even though I haven't met a single person out of hundreds of people in this profession that overtly acted that way (although I've heard 2 anecdotal stories from people who had). Of course I'm not trying to say that there isn't a legitimate problem there, because there likely is, and especially with the small proportion of women in this profession they are very likely to run into those types. But I think the perception of the problem, or the quality of the people who are in CS, is probably greatly exaggerated by the stereotypes and that keeps people away.
    • taurath 8y ago
      I feel like if you talked to code conference runners, you might have a different opinion - being one of the few women at a social event really brings out the socially awkward or aggressive advances.
      • jrs95 8y ago
        I'm sure it's more of a problem at these events than others, but I doubt it's never an issue at any type of event with that much of a gender imbalance. I'm absolutely not suggesting that there isn't a serious issue with harassment in our industry, I just don't think that is the actual root cause of the gender imbalance that exacerbates this issue. Clearly workplace discrimination broadly is an issue, but that all happens after the talent pool is heavily skewed towards men.
• truth123588 8y ago
  I think women avoid tech because they think tech guys are unattractive. Women go for professions where they believe they will be around attractive guys. Although, women are also interested in money, especially as they get older. When women realize tech leads to money, there are many dilemmas, and hence the "women in tech" movement.
  • amch 8y ago
    If you're going to take that stance, you should do a better job of qualifying your opinions. You think women "avoid tech because they think tech guys are unattractive" - simply asserting this to be true doesn't do much for your argument. Likewise with the whole "women are also interested in money."
  • jared_katz 8y ago
    this guy fucks
  • fujiters 8y ago
    Because teaching 1st grade will get you surrounded by good looking dudes? I feel like finance has a reputation for having good looking guys. It also has a reputation for being mostly male.
• hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  > [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. Include her, ask her for advice, introduce her, learn about her work and her life in the same way you would with any male friend or coworker. If you’re an investor, professor, journalist, or manager, take it on yourself to sponsor a young woman’s career. While I totally agree with this advice, I think this is very difficult to get men to do in the tech industry. There is a real concern, and to be honest I don't totally think invalid, that many men don't want to be perceived in any way as doing something that could be construed (or misconstrued) as harassment. I think there may be an subconscious/unconscious evaluation going on where men think "Well, I might be socially awkward talking to this girl anyway, so I'll just avoid the complication." I think one of the unfortunate unintended consequences of the #MeToo movement is that men don't want to even get close to the line of doing something that could be perceived as inappropriate, which unfortunately results in more isolation of women, not less.
  • kenning 8y ago
    I agree with your first (non-quoted) paragraph. Please don't blame this on #metoo. it just happened, and I think the first point you made was just as legitimate before #metoo
  • Upper_Onion 8y ago
    We will implement cultural marxism, one meaningless job at a time. https://i.imgur.com/viFweMa.jpg https://i.imgur.com/viFweMa.jpg I can tell you how was the jobs situation in Romania, during Soviet times. When a 14 years old Romanian went to the high school he chose a direction in life. For example he wanted to be a mechanic, than he passed an exam to the high school. When he finishes 10th grade he was assigned to a state owned repair shop or he was sent to a factory (floor). If he wanted to be a technician, like my father, he had to finish studies with a high-school diploma, called a “bachelor degree”. Then he was assigned to a repair shop or a factory, in the native town. There were very few people with college degrees. The Communist did not like educated people. The college was highly restricted. Less than 10% ever went to faculty. The college was al least 5 years long, and after the studies a commission assigned you to the place you were needed. For example a young lawyer from Bucharest might be sent to Iasi, in Moldavia. An engineer from Cluj might be sent to Tulcea, in the Danube delta. In short, in Communist times, you did not find a job. You were assigned to a job, in a specific factory. You were expected to work there until you died, or be old enough to have a pension. Nobody changed jobs. My father was a sailor. He gave up, when he was 28. The government sent him to technical school, to learn to repair tv sets. After 6 months he passed a test and he was assigned to a TV repair shop. The end. My mother finished high school and she became a teacher for kids age 6 to 10. She was sent to a school very far away and she worked there for 20 years. After the revolution and the disbanding of communism she was able to change schools and come closer to home. The job situation in Romania was similar to the job situation in the Soviet Union. Our system was built after the model of the Soviet system
• ravenstine 8y ago
  What I read from this is that women are less interested than men in a job by itself and more in what the job fits their desired lifestyle. I and many other programmers I've talked to got into the career they have because the craft is naturally compelling to them, with the lifestyle of programming being secondary or even tertiary. I don't think most male programmers do what they do because they particularly like each other, nor are they necessarily interested in an anti-social atmosphere. Sure, some are going to have contrary preferences, but if it wasn't generally true that male programmers are primarily interested in their craft, then I wouldn't expect the most horrendously competitive tech companies wouldn't still get plenty of male applicants and even fewer female applicants. Put simply, I think tech companies could all be run like sweat shops, and you'd see nearly as many men working for them and probably fewer women. Yet again, we have a woman who enters an arena that women don't want to enter(by her own account) and requests that it be changed to fit her and other women. These are the suggestions she makes for making tech more hospitable to women: * Create communities (set people up with “buddies”, mentors, lunch groups) * Emphasize tech’s potential to impact humans and community wellbeing * Invest in social events * Offer opportunities for engineers to do user- and team-facing work * Confront unconscious bias * Go befriend a girl in your class or company As a man, these are all distractions from getting my work done. I am intellectually excited about software development but, when it comes down to it, I want to show up to the office, accomplish things, and go home. Being overly concerned with the wellbeing of others is not that interesting, and I don't have a job to make friends; if I make friends, that's through happenstance. I want to be the best at what I do, but I don't need communities/buddies, social events, unconscious bias training, or the opposite sex to do this. > Go befriend a girl in your class or company I wish someone would tell women the same thing of men. Coming from someone who has more female friends than male, there's a lot that can go wrong in a man trying to befriend women, especially at work. On many occasions, simply being friendly has clearly lead to a woman perceiving that I was interested in her. If you're lucky, you're met with distance and radio silence, but most men are going to be treated as "creepy". As engineering is going to be made up of a lot of nerds who already have experience in being "creepy", there's little incentive for those nerds to willingly subject themselves to rejection when they weren't even looking to court these women in the first place. Again, I have lots of female friends, including some from work, but that's because it took an incredible amount of effort to get to know them without setting off the "creepy" flag. For most guys, this effort isn't worth it.
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• belorn 8y ago
  I read this article and can't help to see how much cultural views and media representation is blending facts with fiction. Starting with the statement "Compared to almost any other industry, women are underrepresented in technology", looking at gender segregation statistics per profession paints a very different picture. Taking Swedish statistics (which get collected as part of taxation and made public), technology profession are usually very average with around 75%. It sounds huge thinking that for every 1 woman there is 3 men, but that is about average for every employed swede for both men and women. You take a random person of the street and there is around 80% chance that the person is working in a profession which has higher than 2:1 gender ratio. The official definition of a gender segregated profession is 60/40 or higher, and 88.5% of the population falls in that category with about 12% women and 13% men working in gender equal professions. Going from the other end, I am manually looking at the list and there is 40 professions with 90% or higher gender segregation none which clearly fits as a technology profession. Top 1# is midwife with 99.7% women (total 5692) and #2 is floor installation with 99.4% men (total 3581). The first recognizable technology profession (system programmer) is listed with 80% men, ranked #75th worst of a total listed 156 professions (including the few gender equal profession). Without this context, discussing numbers like "women hold only 25% of technical roles" is impossible. 75th position means (given equal distribution) that taking a random person of the street should give a 50% chance of them working in a more gender segregated profession than technology. What is causing half the population of Sweden to choose gender segregated professions where the majority outnumber the minority with 80% to 20% and do the theories of the article explain it? Personally I don't think so. If social behavior would be a major source then we should be able to predict which professions would be dominated by men and which by women if we ranked the social engagement in the work place, but such prediction model seems poor when I manually go through the top worst segregated professions where both male and women professions are mostly team based. http://www.duochjobbet.se/nyhet/nio-av-tio-har-jobb-med-ojamn-konsfordelning/ http://www.duochjobbet.se/nyhet/nio-av-tio-har-jobb-med-ojam... (for a 2012 list that was easiest to grab, but one can always go to the Statistics Sweden (SCB)).
• yosito 8y ago
  Pretend you're a woman and then read the comments on this post. That makes it pretty obvious that one of the reasons women have a hard time feeling welcome in tech is because men don't listen to or empathize with them when they speak about their opinions or perspectives.
  • as1mov 8y ago
    I've been browsing this thread for about 45 minutes. Not a single comment is rude, most of the comments are trying to debate about the issue. If you post a submission on a forum and expect everyone to blindly agree with you or you else you consider it as "hate", then the problem is perhaps with you.
    • yosito 8y ago
      You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. Not sure where you got the word "hate" from. I'm not saying anything about hate.
      • stcredzero 8y ago
        You must have missed all the comments of men complaining that they can't be friendly to women because they're an unattractive man. I've missed them. Can you aggregate links? I honestly find this interesting. (You can "cheat" this using the reply links.)
        • yosito 8y ago
          CMD+F unatt I'm not gonna do your work for you.
          • stcredzero 8y ago
            I see. You, "won't do labor." Most of the time I see the phrase, it's not from good people. It's not like you can CMD-F a sentiment. So, I just tried it, and I found exactly one match for "unatt" that fit the sentiment discussed from the 1st person. I only found one person who said he, personally, couldn't be friendly to women because he is unattractive. The rest are talking about people in general, and aren't necessarily attached to the ability to be friendly. From what I saw, the issue of being friendly with women is more attached to the problems of risk, and this risk is correlated with relative attractiveness.
• alexbecker 8y ago
  The cited statistic "Women make up 57% of the workforce" is very misleading. Chasing down the chain of citations, this number appears to be the percentage of "Professional and related occupations" jobs occupied by women according to the BLS (https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat09.htm https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat09.htm). But by far the largest sub-category of this is "Healthcare practitioners and technical occupations" which is heavily female--outside of this sub-group the gender ratio is roughly 50/50.
  • yosito 8y ago
    You can't just cut out parts of the workforce that you don't want to include in your data.
    • alexbecker 8y ago
      I'm not advocating that. I'm just saying that this is, contrary to how it is cited, a specific subset of "the workforce", and pointing out that this subset furthermore is not necessarily representative of what one might think of as the "professional" workforce.
• YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
  > Part 1: Young women are more pro-social then young men. That's just another gender stereotype.
  • meowface 8y ago
    Backed by science.
    • YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
      Science doesn't back stereotypes.
      • meowface 8y ago
        But stereotypes can be backed by science.
        • YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
          Stereotypes aren't backed by anything. They're just things people beleive for no good reason.
• danans 8y ago
  Normally, this would be pedantic, but since the author is delving into terms from psychology, they should avoid conflating the terms pro/antisocial with social/asocial. In particular, antisocial [1] means something very different than asocial (preferring a less active social life). Plenty of people are asocial but thankfully very few are antisocial. It matters in the case of the article because it juxtaposes pro-social behaviors like community consciousness with asocial behaviors. These are different dimensions. One can be simultaneously asocial and pro-social, and one can also simultaneously be social and anti-social. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disor...
• JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Anecdote: My niece was on a female floor in her dormitory. Supposed to foster a supportive environment for the women to pursue STEM. What happened? A few gave in, turned to Liberal Arts. They began to chatter to the rest about "why bother". After 1 semester, only my niece was still in a STEM field (ChemE).
• jehlakj 8y ago
  I like to compare STEM to Harry Potter when it first came out. I remember being one of those dorks in middle school who couldn’t get enough of it, and I thought not many people enjoyed it as much as I did. Only a handful of people mentioned it, and I was pretty social back then. Then the movies came out followed by the “cool kids” going crazy over them. Suddenly you have to like Harry Potter in order to fit in! The only difference is that STEM isn’t labeled as cool by “cool people” yet.
• timavr 8y ago
  I am just confused. I think we might agree that how social women vs men are in the certain age group are relatively constant through time. IE in 60s men is about as social as they are now, but the number of women in STEM decreased through the same time period. I think it is just market forces in play plus gender roles in childhood. Women get discriminated in tech(study and jobs), resulting in subpar outcomes for women. This information propagates through the market so women choose not to participate in that kind of work because opportunity costs are too high and they choose to do something else. Very similar situation growing up where gender roles and parents push girls away from STEM. If companies and educational institution in STEM treated men and women the same, we would get much better distribution. Not rocket science here. Education plus equal treatment.
• jenthoven 8y ago
• jd75 8y ago
  I personally love me some alone time, but yeah, as a lady, tech is a little too lonely even for me. Something that I think would help is if the social types in the engineering department (often men!) would post interesting tech events in Slack. Maybe I don't enjoy sports or poker; maybe you don't enjoy sci-fi book readings or craft nights, but chances are we both want learn some new tricks (with free beer and snacks). I suppose the risk there is that it can feel like an obligation -- and I actually had a boss accuse me of networking for my next job by going to tech events.
  • jm__87 8y ago
    actually had a boss accuse me of networking for my next job by going to tech events. Someone who works in tech who is interested in tech and goes to tech events. I don't buy it :).
  • godelski 8y ago
    > Something that I think would help is if the social types in the engineering department (often men!) would post interesting tech events in Slack. I think this is really important. But should add that if you want to do something don't be afraid to make said post. If you feel lonely, reach out. I moved across the country and had no friends there (into an engineering firm, in an engineering town, with few people my age (mostly engineers)). Being mostly an introvert I was fine being alone 99% of the time, but everyone needs friends. I figured out that when I need friend time that I had to be the one to organize such events. If I didn't then no one did anything, or the groups that already existed would just do their own things. (Can't blame them for excluding me. Not like it was a malicious act. Just no one knew me.) It can just be something simple as "Hey I was going to do $X on $DAY, want to come too?" (direct works better than an open invitation) After learning this I did actually develop friends and got invited to things. So what I'm saying is that if you feel lonely you have to reach out. I completely understand that this sucks as an introvert. But you do have some control over this and you can't completely rely on others to invite you to things.
• indoorfish 8y ago
  If someone could please explain to me how this is an issue entirely completely uncoupled with the rise of "Tech" to be trendy (read lucrative) and the insistence for some people's assertions that THEY deserve this as much as others, it would be much appreciated. It feels like everyone is just turning a blind eye to the obvious parallels in deep sea welding or some other gender dominated profession because they don't want anyone to get hurt feelings and start a witch hunt.
  • ravenstine 8y ago
    Because "tech" as of late has become comfortable and more publicly accepted, even garnering a certain cachet and prestige because of get-rich-coding billionaires like Mark Zuckerberg. It'd be a non-issue if tech was full of geeks with slide-rules who only make an average salary and have to wear a tie to the office.
• stcredzero 8y ago
  It's funny that the author disparages this Quillette article as, "discouraging theories of biological superiority," when a fair reading of it actually includes the author's point. Much of it addresses skews in preferences. Even James Damore's memo devoted a portion to consideration of preferences, and suggested changing the field to better fit preferences. http://quillette.com/2018/02/15/sex-stem-stubborn-facts-stubborn-ideologies/ http://quillette.com/2018/02/15/sex-stem-stubborn-facts-stub... Many fields have demographic skews, and many of these are a result of preferences, some in favor of women, even in highly technical areas. (And these can change over time for non-nefarious reasons.) No-one you should take seriously thinks men are somehow biologically anointed to be "superior." However, no one you should take seriously thinks men and women are biologically identical blank slates, particularly if that is really motivated by an ideological feel-good story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmyO3hbOz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmyO3hbOz8 Part 2: As a profession, computer engineering is perceived to be [X] There is some important kernel of truth to this. I've known women who can code, but who definitely don't want to, including my wife who actually feels sorry for me whenever she tries to imagine what my day is like. Furthermore, I would say that there aspects of the culture of programming which act to degrade its meritocracy, and some of those are culturally skewed against women. I don't think that an attitude of witch-hunt and inquisition is the way to do that, however. Rather, I think the kind of discussion which James Damore thought he was going to have when he penned his memo is the solution. Note that this is entirely independent of what he said in his memo -- the kind of discussion he reportedly imagined would happen. As jdavis notes below, accounting and book keeping employ more women than men. Computer programming was once seen as a preferred career for women in the very early days. I suspect that there's a common thread here, which is mediated by culture and social factors. One which is not nefarious, and one which would be useful to figure out.
• opportune 8y ago
  I see this as a problem companies need to solve, not individuals. A man intentionally going out of their way to befriend a woman has much more to lose (potentially being considered a “creep” leading to a poor reputation that may spread) than they stand to gain compared to if they tried to befriend another man. But the main reason that can occur is the intentionality of making an “approach” like that. And yes, it will be construed as creepy a significant portion of the time, especially if you are unattractive or have poor social skills - that’s a fact of life. If instead your boss/professor mandated a few small social events to get new hires to meet each other and existing employees one-on-one, there’s no way you can misconstrue getting to know someone as trying to flirt with them. Everybody wins.
• nuna 8y ago
  Speaking not only as a Woman but as a Mother (Happy Mothers Day everyone) nothing would of persuade me away from STEM career. My parents were both in STEM and the love for science was as early as I can remember. HOWEVER on my most difficult days I feel like it is so hard because of the awfully short maternity leave, not enough vacation days to spend with family, no sick days to care for sick kids, 40 hour weeks when I can be done my work in 30 or less. I dont feel negativity about interactions with other males in the industry. The bad interactions are usually from socially awkward individuals in general
• KaoruAoiShiho 8y ago
  Nice theory. Sexism is still the most compelling reason though. What her mother told her was sexist. Most of her negative experiences can be categorized as sexist. The excuses about social stuff seems like bs coverings for general sexism that people try very hard to be in denial about. This is plainly obvious if you talk to women from other cultures who don't experience this stuff.
• hn_throw_334 8y ago
  I'm not fond of talking about how much "experience" I have so I've made this throwaway. I've been programming for most of my adult life. I've worked on every level of the tech stack from writing byte code for CPUs by hand to front end web development. In my college classes I helped many people survive by offering advice on tooling, implementation, and even sometimes direct one on one tutoring. I would never say I know everything about software development but I've had a lot of practice and I know how to find out how to do anything and I can teach and or exercise that same skill to anyone. Unfortunately though I am what this author would call "a baggy-eyed programmer in a dark cave with Red Bull or a unintelligible savant who can’t get a date." I'm extremely nervous in social situations to the point where I don't enjoy ordering something different from restaurants I've already been to for fear that the person behind the counter will ask me to clarify something and I won't know what to do. I've been getting much better at talking to people and I'm usually extroverted when I'm around people I've already met. As for what the article asks as a solution, as many point out, this is very difficult. > [If you’re a dude and you’re reading this article] Go befriend a girl in your class or company. It’s not creepy. I'd consider the engineers I work with to all be my friends and that's only because I work with them on a day to day basis and I had time to acclimate to them. The women who I've met university however did not pan out this way. I have many male friends. Many of whom have either noticed me, or who I have noticed, have terminals open and have been vigorously typing during a lecture. Whenever I see this I make a point to lean over and ask "what editor do you use?", "what class is this for?", "that's cool! Do you have any side project that you do outside of school". I've made some very good friends by doing this but women for the most part are creeped out. It's understandable. I'm a weird looking dude with a 12 year old thinkpad that sports stickers from OSH Park and I'm likely going to be talking to people who I already know about anime or something else equally as strange. One thing that has never happened to me, and that I've never seen happen anywhere, was see a women lean over and do what I have just described. Unfortunately just due to the nature of the possible sample size (<20% of my degree track's population) this may just be a coincidence. I love teaching and I want to get better at making friends. It's just very difficult for me, and the many others like me, to be the one to reach out. I think it would generally be positive if encouraged women to try and ask "what editor are you using?" I'd definitely go to meetups, talk shop, work on projects, etc with someone else in the NYC area. I've got a lot I can teach and much more that we could learn together. I just don't know how to make that happen. Facilitating an environment where that could happen is probably the best bet if this author is correct imo.
• arkis22 8y ago
  >Between the ages of 16 and 24, girls have more sophisticated social lives than boys of the same age. Young women talk to their friends more often [1], care more about their reputation [2], spend more time talking about their friends [3], and assign more emotional value to close relationships [4] I admire that she provided links for these, but I really don't believe any of those statements. That list of 4 things is difficult to measure because they probably occur in different forms for boys vs girls and the studies consequently "found" what they were looking for. Sexism is dripping in irony. Damore can't say there are biological differences between males and females, but it's ok to say that as a male I care less about my friendships. Try to be nice, try to be fair, try to be honest. Ignore everything and everyone else...
  • thau98thh 8y ago
    Thank you! I was thinking the exact same thing about this particular part. I don't think it tanks her argument, but it is irritating to see this repeated so often.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • meowface 8y ago
    It seems to me that the author would generally be sympathetic to Damore's memo (but who knows for sure) based on the views espoused in this post, so I don't quite understand your point.
    • geebee 8y ago
      The point seems fairly clear to me. arkis22 is pointing out that this author is making unfavorable generalizations about men, and stating that these generalizations are probably partly due to biology. Here, it is that women assign greater value to close friendships. Later, she states that: "My experience confirms that teenage and college-age girls care more than boys do about solving real human problem (as opposed to competitive, self-oriented gain), forming close bonds with peers, and earning colleagues’ respect. I will not comment on whether this is caused by society or by biology; likely, it’s both and many factors in between." This isn't wildly slanderous, but I think we can agree that caring more about real human problems is more admirable that pursuing "self-oriented" gain (or maybe not, randians might say self-oriented gain is the highest moral pursuit there is. I'd disagree, and I suspect the author here would as well). So, we have that men pursue self-oriented gain, and women pursue solution to real world human problems, and this is partly due to biological differences between men and women. Personally, I'm really not offended or bothered by this. She has every right to make this claim, and overall, I though it was a good essay. I also think that arkis22 is interpreting these comments somewhat uncharitably. I don't need someone to go through a million footnotes and provisos and stating repeatedly that these are just averages. I am nearly certain that this writer would agree that some men care deeply about real human problems and relationships, and some women care more about self-oriented gain. I certainly don't think it improves the conversation when people get bogged down because they have to protect themselves against every possible uncharitable interpretation of an argument (she didn't say that arkis22 cares less about his friendships). But we do live in a world where people who make comparable (perhaps less dramatic) claims about women face pretty serious censure.
• ChicagoDave 8y ago
  I've never understood the anti-social stereotype of working software. In order to do the work, most of us need to interact with users of all stripes. It's rare that we're isolated in a bubble of men. There are business analysts, project managers, users, stakeholders, scrum masters, QA testers, story development meetings, and daily scrums. It's one of the most social professions one could arguably enter. Sure we have to code in a cube for most of our week, but anti-social? Hardly. In fact, the most successful software engineers are the ones that _are_ social, understand complex social environments, listen well, and know how to engage. I do agree with the OP that there's a _perception_ of anti-social stereotypes, but I'd argue the problem is that there are few women in tech, men would _love_ to find a tech-oriented partner or date, but the odds of that one woman in your group lining up in all other ways with us is narrow (we're analytical daters - we do the math), we tend to just resign ourselves to staying away from disappointment. And there is the whole sexual harassment aspect too. When we're doing the coworker math in our heads, we're worried about saying something stupid. It's a self-fulfilling cycle. An unbalanced gender environment creates discomfort by both genders. We need to actively reconstruct social dynamics within tech circles to break this cycle or it will just continue.
  • ChicagoDave 8y ago
    How do we break the cycle? Colleges need to get out of the business of teaching CompSci the way the do it now. Less emphasis on science and engineering and more on team building, project management, business analysis, and more. Don't make programmers. To me that's like forcing everyone that plans to work on cars to only understand how to repair brakes. There is a whole lot of car outside of repairing just the brakes. Colleges need to engage in team-oriented software development practices. It shouldn't be computer science specific. It should be business oriented, social, teams, projects, testing, planning, white-boarding, _and_ programming. This is how a lot of businesses run, so we should mimic the environments these graduates will end up in. If we made this one valuable change, we'd possibly attract a more balanced gender population, create social environments for men to evolve properly, allow women to feel comfortable and respected, and generate advocacy for diverse and respectful work environments.
    • 8y ago
• morethanmachine 8y ago
  Thanks for posting this, a refreshing perspective, on which I couldn't agree more. I founded and operate a software startup, and have > 20 years of semiconductor manufacturing and software development experience. As a very extroverted male, when I meet new people they almost always show genuine surprise when discovering what I do for a living. It’s a fact: there’s a social bias in tech. Personally, I can’t stand the term nerd, or anything like it - it’s derogatory to me, making it appear there is something lacking socially. Thanks for the positive advice here, I am already practicing a lot of it in my daily work life. And you’ve given me a couple more things to add to that practice.
• Safyia 8y ago
  I am a female engineer and I studied CS in Europe. I never had issues socializing. My classmates were fortunately very inclusive, maybe because the men-women friendships have a different dynamic in Europe, or I was just lucky. Either way, my class was still 95% male. I would say we have to look at even younger girls to see the issue. I have a brother who is really into computer games. When we were children, my parents got him games and didn't mind when he was sitting behind the computer for hours. I also liked games and I was trying to write stories, draw, install programs to get(ehm, pirate) music too. We had one computer and when my brother was using it I had to wait for him to finish playing. When I was using it, I was sent to play outside or read. Computers were always a boy thing, so I was never really seriously considering studying CS until we did a career test in high school where they encouraged me to go to a STEM field and do something like math or computer science. I gave it a try and loved it. I think we have to start early and stop dividing professions into for men or women. Let men be nurses and women firefighters. Look at your childrens personalities and let them grow in whatever they enjoy, girly or not.
  • jorgemf 8y ago
    I think you just pointed the biggest issues in the article: the problem starts before any of the solutions proposed. You can do whatever you want during the job/university but if you still get 95% males it won't fix the issue. > I think we have to start early and stop dividing professions into for men or women. Let men be nurses and women firefighters. Look at your childrens personalities and let them grow in whatever they enjoy, girly or not. I would just add that we should do this even if it doesn't change anything. Just let people do whatever they like and don't judge them with stupid stereotypes. Don't force girls to be CS and boys to be nurses if they don't want to.
• heyyyouu 8y ago
  I think the author may really be onto something here. I have teenage and twenty-something daughters. My youngest is very excited about her stats minor but when I suggested computer science to her the horror that crossed her face...like it was a personal insult. Another one is into math and science and also wouldn't consider CS if her life depended on it -- physics or chemical engineering, sure, but never CS. Both do have very active social lives -- maybe that's it, or maybe it's because their parent wants them to do it -- kids never want to do what their parent suggests. Whatever it is, as a mom who fell into tech who would love her daughters to get a CS degree, I have yet to find way to make the degree appealing to them, even though they like what I do and actually find the act of coding enjoyable.
  • Gibbon1 8y ago
    > physics or chemical engineering, sure, but never CS. I think ultimately a career in real engineering field would be easier and more satisfying to your daughters than CS. Because CS is thick with toxic lord of the flies man child's at this point.
    • heyyyouu 8y ago
      See, that's the thing: I haven't experienced that myself but I may just be lucky -- I don't know.
• forapurpose 8y ago
  It's sad to see so many people here saying that social situations, especially with women, induce so much fear. Here are some tips from a geek who was in that position, learned a few things, and now has slightly less crappy social skills: * Stop objectifying people: 'Objectifying' is a kinda intimidating word, but the meaning is essential. Stop making people objects in your mental model of the world; stop making them characters who play a role in your private theatrical narrative of rejection (and whatever else you've lived through). That big scary monster who might reject you - that's the object. The real person has their own entire private universe, like you, of fears, desires, perspectives, priorities, needs, worries, and theatrical narratives. They haven't read your script, don't know their assigned part, and most importantly, don't want to play it - they want to be themselves! You and your interaction play a tiny role in their lives; the reason they respond in X way likely has little to do with you; they may be as scared as you are. Instead, be curious about them - who is this person completely distinct from you? There's a vast universe of emotion and experience you know nothing about - so much to learn! Give them plenty of space and assume nothing because you don't know shit; the variety is unfathomable; if they don't surprise you, you're doing it wrong. More importantly, step outside yourself and care. Grasp that they have a hard time too - this mortal coil sucks for everyone - and be compassionate about it. Genuine compassion is your greatest tool; it also turns your attention away from your fears and outward to others, and you also do a good deed. Humans crave it. (I'm not blaming you for objectifying; I know why; it's hard.) * Be genuine about your emotions. That is, be honest. You're not hiding them nearly as well as you think; people have evolved and learned throughout their lives to pick up very subtle emotional cues, consciously and unconsciously. (It's a matter of survival for the organism - 'Will the one next to me kill me? Feed me? Parent my children?') And here's the trick: If you aren't honest with yourself about your emotions, then obviously you can't be honest with others. Too many males are raised to treat emotions like a crippled, angry dog they're forced to feed - great, you just kicked out the strongest leg of your little table of stability and capability. Your intellect is not nearly enough to compensate, but you probably noticed that by now; your emotions are actually your best friend and tool - amazingly powerful and they also provide stability if you take care of them. Be emotionally genuine and honest or you're lying to the other person (and maybe yourself); people don't like liars. That doesn't mean you have to act out on them (yell when angry) or announce them at every moment or that you shouldn't have some composure (be able to manage them), but be honest with yourself and don't pretend. Try this: 'I'm such a nerd! Talking to people terrifies me.' That's genuine, shows you can be trusted, and allows them to genuine. * Pay close attention to their emotions. Ask yourself, 'what is their emotional affect[0] right now?' and also, 'what is their unsaid concern, what is their agenda?' Yes, it takes effort and concentration to do those things while also paying close attention to their words. That's called listening. And it also makes you shut up, stop interrupting, and again focus outward on them and not on your fears or the game/work you're obsessed with. When people see and feel you do it, they really appreciate it; it's like magic. And you'll be amazed what you learn from other people when you let them talk. * Back way the f-k up and give people (emotional) space, lots of it, enough that they can go anywhere in their conversation and not meet any resistance from you (an uncomfortable look, an interjection, etc.). Enough so that they can develop an incomplete idea or pause without at all worrying that they'll lose the floor to you. Give them freedom; give them control. If you're like me, that's hard; bite your tongue, literally if you must. And that means that if you get the emotional cue that they don't want to talk right now, then swallow your fear and respect their completely legitimate wishes. Your fear, your insistence that they respond as you want, is about that object in your mind (see the first point above). That's on you, not them; they aren't there to serve your emotional needs. If you give them space when they want it, you'll find that they trust you when they are ready to talk. If you don't, then why would they want to come back? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affect_%28psychology%29 EDIT: Some minor edits
• dennis_jeeves 8y ago
  Here is the politically incorrect view, most people at the high end of the IQ are men. Like it or not, nature is not egalitarian. Why is this so f*ing complicated? Programming as a profession roughly falls under the high IQ spectrum. Ok, now some of you egalitarian nuts reading this _will_ interpret what I wrote as discriminatory, _waits for the backlash_
  • poke111 8y ago
    source?
    • dennis_jeeves 8y ago
      poke111, I looked at your other posts and I belive you really needn't be convinced with a source as such.( if by source you meant a research paper) I noticed that you have already figured out that there differences in IQ among races. Anyway - my 'source' is my observation over the years, the smartest people that I'm aware of, both among developers or otherwise are disproportionately male. As a corollary some dumbest people are also disproportionately male. Never in my circle of acquaintances have I seen women being discriminated solely based on their gender. Infact I have on occasions seen a clear discrimination against men. I did do a quick search to see if there were research papers on the subject, I could not find it. The few that I could find did not show significant differences. Now ofcourse the broader question to ask is, do we take main stream science at it's word always, ? No, is my answer. A large proportion of mainstream science is biased and rigged. I have heard/read that any research paper that shows difference in IQ among genders or race is unlikely to be published by journals.
• dgudkov 8y ago
  Tech in general and software in particular is hard to learn. So hard that you can't progress beyond mediocre level unless you have strong passion for it. Only that passion pushes you to spend hours and days fighting a problem. Only that passion makes you stay awake late night reading about beautiful programming concept. Only that passion gives you a bliss when you finally figured out something and made it work. Better social interactions won't replace that passion. So no, I don't support her theory. Innate interest in technology is necessary and sufficient.
• masonic 8y ago
  That Google photo[0], which the author thinks is a good example of diversity, properly reflects the current SV definition of "diversity": (a) all white and Asian (b) 25% female (c) all in their 20s and early 30s. No older females. No older males. No black females. No black males. No apparent Latinos (perhaps far right in the second row). [0] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IKDqAFRmbc_c4-rbLJ5WjCq58HPUTBfXDmSXP2LZn_AcBSM5iWj7vWfSYZYJk4SxGc5WBgF1jgaAVaGllJ8HqcHE8VP_r3emAaNHdpDIQlbG9qPiDtampzoqKKZ7bPoG9zjOQzPU https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/IKDqAFRmbc_c4-rbLJ5WjCq58H...
• amai 8y ago
  Having many social interactions can be a competitive disadvantage: "Army scientists recently found that the best, high-performing cybersecurity teams have relatively few interactions with their team-members and team captain." https://www.arl.army.mil/www/default.cfm?article=3209 https://www.arl.army.mil/www/default.cfm?article=3209
• apta 8y ago
  > Young women are more pro-social then young men. But but men and women are the same! Where's the gender equality? /s
• heedlessly3 8y ago
  Achieving the 50% gap is almost mathematically impossible without discouraging men from pursuing STEM and encouraging these same men to go into more people-oriented careers such as early-education, social workers, and human resources.
• onewhonknocks 8y ago
  Likely an unpopular view, by why is this a problem? There are unequal gender splits in many fields, but I don't hear a big outcry that men are underrepresented in Nursing as an example, or that there aren't enough women lumberjacks. Not everything needs to be in a 50/50 balance.
• tripletao 8y ago
  Total aside, but where did her "baggy-eyed programmer in a dark cave with Red Bull or a unintelligible savant who can’t get a date" picture come from? Know Your Meme just says "unknown". https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9L-mUL4tDVCe322V-fYpUHbQxP-JXijDKg47nj_Nuv-87M3XJjHVV1b8aLepZ_1BXX3DiApCMz61Ruwk_NsaLLJUk6eQ5kpV-dML615Xpb57AtkTJy4TTLTlwdtrld4KJkehvPj0 https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9L-mUL4tDVCe322V-fYpUHbQxP... Was it a staged stock photo, or was it just some guy? If the latter, I wonder how he'd feel about his role in her article?