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" Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires

" Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles." I have been thinking that too. At what point do you decide that the autopilot is making a mistake and take over? That's an almost impossible task to perform within the available time.

linkmotif 9y ago
Also what is the point of such an auto pilot? Seems really dangerous. Telling people you don’t have to drive but you have to pay attention ignores fundamental psychology.
omarforgotpwd 9y ago
Try it. it’s not impossible. I do it all the time. Have you ever noticed how passengers are still paying attention to what’s going on and sometimes even turn their head to see where the car is turning? it’s like that, except you’re in the drivers seat. it’s not more work than driving.
- cm2187 9y ago
  It’s not a matter of work but of reaction time available.
- astrodust 9y ago
  That crash in the video is one you'd have very little time to avoid. Recognizing that the car isn't just going a bit wide but is on a direct collision course with the barrier takes time, and then you need to determine a course of action, reacting without over-reacting. You probably have 100ms to begin your action, 500ms to complete it. Good luck with that if you're not perfectly alert.
  - omarforgotpwd 9y ago
    Trust me, when the car starts doing something you wouldn't do you feel it immediately IF you're paying attention. Remember the car doesn't do anything fancy -- it's just supposed to drive straight centered in the lane
    - astrodust 9y ago
      It drove in a straight line right into the wall. What part of that, other than hitting the wall, are you going to "feel"?
      - vsl 9y ago
        The way it diverted from the trajectory you would take. It got off the expected path, or drivers a few km/h faster in a road arc that you would, that sort of thing raises alarm in the driver right away. A funny feeling like that, I’m ready to disengage immediately and then 1s is plenty of time. But I wouldn’t use Autopilot near an obstacle like that to begin with - anticipate, take over for the weird stretches.
        astrodust 9y ago
        1000ms is plenty of time, but in this particular crash you have 500ms total between the car veering out of the lane and impacting the wall. Regardless, you're saying that if you're not paying attention every single second of the trip, instantly ready to rect to even the slightest deviation from your intended trajectory, then you're doing it wrong. What, exactly, is the point of an auto-pilot system if you need to be in that state of absolute alertness?
    - michaelt 9y ago
      Seems to me in the video there's no intervention needed at the 21 second mark, and the car's already hit the barrier at the 22 second mark. Youtube doesn't provide sub-second time marks, but I'd estimate it's 21.5 second before I'd expect the car to start turning, giving the driver 0.5 seconds to notice the failure, take control of the vehicle, and execute the swerve required. The Queensland government estimates it takes drivers 1.5 seconds to react to an emergency [1] (I wouldn't be surprised if that was a 99th percentile figure, of course) The only thing we can blame the victim for here is foolishly trusting Tesla's apparently crap software. [1] https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/driving-safely/stopping-distances https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/driving-...
- gambiting 9y ago
  Ok, imagine if you are a passenger in a car, sitting next to the driver. You are heading towards a turn, with a solid barrier in your path if you don't turn. Your driver is awake, holding the wheel firmly with eyes wide open. Do you think there's any chance you could intervene between realizing that the driver is not turning and the car hitting the barrier? You could be paying 200% attention to the road, but there's just not enough time - by the time you even realize that the driver is not turning the wheel to impact there is like 1 second of time, maybe two - could you grab the wheel and pull it to one side in that time? And even if you could, can you guarantee that you won't pull it too much and into the path of fully loaded 18-wheeler which will promptly flatten your car? It's just not good enough. Semi-autonomous cars can't be hitting stationary objects without reacting at all. If they fail at this basic task, then they shouldn't be allowed on the road.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    No idea why you are downvoted. Your comment is right on.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  When I am a passenger I do not always pay attention, only sometimes. And if something happens it will the driver's fault, not mine. It would be a very stressful ride if I had to always observe the driver and if I didn't intervene anytime every problem would be my responsibility.
  - nojvek 9y ago
    I definitely think auto-pilot is a really bad name. It should be “advanced cruise control”. Because essentially that’s what it is. Follow the lane and maintain distance behind a car. Also unless certified on certain roads with clear markers, drivers should be required to have hands on wheels at all times.
ryanlol 9y ago
Taking over from the autopilot is very easy unless you are deliberately risking your own life.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Sure. But from this, it follows that you'll have so many AP disconnects that you might as well keep the AP off, defeating its purpose.
corney91 9y ago
If I was driving a car like that I think I'd feel safer if there was a "confidence meter" available, I have no idea about how these auto-drive systems work but I'm guessing there's some metric for how confident the car is that it's going in the correct direction. Exposing that information as a basic percentage meter on the dash somewhere would make me feel more confident about using the auto-drive. I can understand why this wouldn't happen from a business perspective, and it's also presumably not as simple to implement as I'm implying, but I can't think of a better way to get around the uncertainty of whether the car's operating in an expected way or not.
- serpix 9y ago
  On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load? The situation can change in milliseconds during driving, you can never ever be entirely sure nothing unexpected could happen. Personally having tried Tesla AP1 iit was painfully clear I can never fully trust any assisted driving aid, they can fail at any point and I need to be ready to take over immediately. Particularly having to wrestle the steering wheel from AP1 as it slightly resists is reason enough to stop using it.
  - corney91 9y ago
    > On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load? I think I'd find it a simpler metric to follow than the more qualitative information about car behaviour, as well as more useful to decide whether the car or I should be in control. You're quite right about timing, I have no idea whether this metric would plummet quickly or gracefully drop so the driver would have time to take charge once a threshold was hit. I want to stress that this is an underbaked idea and really just a thought experiment about what would make me personally feel more comfortable with driving a semi-autonomous vehicle.
- shawabawa3 9y ago
  If they had the ability to measure confidence in the system, they would use it to issue warnings or disable autopilot The "confidence meter" would almost certainly be 100% right up until it crashes into an obvious obstacle
amelius 9y ago
It's a lot like sitting in the passenger seat next to a driver who suddenly turns out to be having a stroke. At what point do you grab the wheel? Clearly, it's a very dangerous situation that you don't want to happen, and certainly not on a regular basis.
- tremon 9y ago
  But if the driver is having a stroke, you could likely get visual or auditory cues from the driver, you wouldn't have to infer it from the vehicle behaviour.
KarenSatantsby 9y ago
Driving a 2017 Corolla on busy highway is more exhausting than driving a 2007 Honda civic - the Corolla has all this stuf like it moves the stearing wheel if I drift complains if I dont signal and jerks the wheel - slows down on cruis control and then speeds up.. I would be out of it driving a more bossy car like a tesla. I would rather the car just do the driving rather than act like my dad when I was 15.
nojvek 9y ago
If it’s a car that doesn’t require human driver to have her/his hands on the steering wheel at all times, and it crashes. It’s the car’s fault. i.e it collided into another semi-stationary object when it could steer away or brake. This should be a law. #1 job of any self driving system is to avoid obstacles. If you can’t do that reliably, it’s a fail!
- Balgair 9y ago
  It is going to come down to the insurance companies. These first few crashes are going to be a nightmare of legal issues and set a lot of precedent. Likely, Tesla and the others are not going to be fined a lot, but they are going to be held accountable in some small way. As such, the insurance companies are going to set very stringent requirements for the 'new' auto-driving features or they are going to come up with some crazy clauses when using the features.

linkmotif 9y ago

Also what is the point of such an auto pilot? Seems really dangerous. Telling people you don’t have to drive but you have to pay attention ignores fundamental psychology.

omarforgotpwd 9y ago

Try it. it’s not impossible. I do it all the time. Have you ever noticed how passengers are still paying attention to what’s going on and sometimes even turn their head to see where the car is turning? it’s like that, except you’re in the drivers seat. it’s not more work than driving.

cm2187 9y ago
It’s not a matter of work but of reaction time available.
astrodust 9y ago
That crash in the video is one you'd have very little time to avoid. Recognizing that the car isn't just going a bit wide but is on a direct collision course with the barrier takes time, and then you need to determine a course of action, reacting without over-reacting. You probably have 100ms to begin your action, 500ms to complete it. Good luck with that if you're not perfectly alert.
- omarforgotpwd 9y ago
  Trust me, when the car starts doing something you wouldn't do you feel it immediately IF you're paying attention. Remember the car doesn't do anything fancy -- it's just supposed to drive straight centered in the lane
  - astrodust 9y ago
    It drove in a straight line right into the wall. What part of that, other than hitting the wall, are you going to "feel"?
    - vsl 9y ago
      The way it diverted from the trajectory you would take. It got off the expected path, or drivers a few km/h faster in a road arc that you would, that sort of thing raises alarm in the driver right away. A funny feeling like that, I’m ready to disengage immediately and then 1s is plenty of time. But I wouldn’t use Autopilot near an obstacle like that to begin with - anticipate, take over for the weird stretches.
      - astrodust 9y ago
        1000ms is plenty of time, but in this particular crash you have 500ms total between the car veering out of the lane and impacting the wall. Regardless, you're saying that if you're not paying attention every single second of the trip, instantly ready to rect to even the slightest deviation from your intended trajectory, then you're doing it wrong. What, exactly, is the point of an auto-pilot system if you need to be in that state of absolute alertness?
  - michaelt 9y ago
    Seems to me in the video there's no intervention needed at the 21 second mark, and the car's already hit the barrier at the 22 second mark. Youtube doesn't provide sub-second time marks, but I'd estimate it's 21.5 second before I'd expect the car to start turning, giving the driver 0.5 seconds to notice the failure, take control of the vehicle, and execute the swerve required. The Queensland government estimates it takes drivers 1.5 seconds to react to an emergency [1] (I wouldn't be surprised if that was a 99th percentile figure, of course) The only thing we can blame the victim for here is foolishly trusting Tesla's apparently crap software. [1] https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/driving-safely/stopping-distances https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/driving-...
gambiting 9y ago
Ok, imagine if you are a passenger in a car, sitting next to the driver. You are heading towards a turn, with a solid barrier in your path if you don't turn. Your driver is awake, holding the wheel firmly with eyes wide open. Do you think there's any chance you could intervene between realizing that the driver is not turning and the car hitting the barrier? You could be paying 200% attention to the road, but there's just not enough time - by the time you even realize that the driver is not turning the wheel to impact there is like 1 second of time, maybe two - could you grab the wheel and pull it to one side in that time? And even if you could, can you guarantee that you won't pull it too much and into the path of fully loaded 18-wheeler which will promptly flatten your car? It's just not good enough. Semi-autonomous cars can't be hitting stationary objects without reacting at all. If they fail at this basic task, then they shouldn't be allowed on the road.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  No idea why you are downvoted. Your comment is right on.
maxxxxx 9y ago
When I am a passenger I do not always pay attention, only sometimes. And if something happens it will the driver's fault, not mine. It would be a very stressful ride if I had to always observe the driver and if I didn't intervene anytime every problem would be my responsibility.
- nojvek 9y ago
  I definitely think auto-pilot is a really bad name. It should be “advanced cruise control”. Because essentially that’s what it is. Follow the lane and maintain distance behind a car. Also unless certified on certain roads with clear markers, drivers should be required to have hands on wheels at all times.

ryanlol 9y ago

Taking over from the autopilot is very easy unless you are deliberately risking your own life.

Piskvorrr 9y ago
Sure. But from this, it follows that you'll have so many AP disconnects that you might as well keep the AP off, defeating its purpose.

corney91 9y ago

If I was driving a car like that I think I'd feel safer if there was a "confidence meter" available, I have no idea about how these auto-drive systems work but I'm guessing there's some metric for how confident the car is that it's going in the correct direction. Exposing that information as a basic percentage meter on the dash somewhere would make me feel more confident about using the auto-drive. I can understand why this wouldn't happen from a business perspective, and it's also presumably not as simple to implement as I'm implying, but I can't think of a better way to get around the uncertainty of whether the car's operating in an expected way or not.

serpix 9y ago
On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load? The situation can change in milliseconds during driving, you can never ever be entirely sure nothing unexpected could happen. Personally having tried Tesla AP1 iit was painfully clear I can never fully trust any assisted driving aid, they can fail at any point and I need to be ready to take over immediately. Particularly having to wrestle the steering wheel from AP1 as it slightly resists is reason enough to stop using it.
- corney91 9y ago
  > On top of all that is going on in traffic you would add interpreting one more abstracted symbol to your cognitive load? I think I'd find it a simpler metric to follow than the more qualitative information about car behaviour, as well as more useful to decide whether the car or I should be in control. You're quite right about timing, I have no idea whether this metric would plummet quickly or gracefully drop so the driver would have time to take charge once a threshold was hit. I want to stress that this is an underbaked idea and really just a thought experiment about what would make me personally feel more comfortable with driving a semi-autonomous vehicle.
shawabawa3 9y ago
If they had the ability to measure confidence in the system, they would use it to issue warnings or disable autopilot The "confidence meter" would almost certainly be 100% right up until it crashes into an obvious obstacle

amelius 9y ago

It's a lot like sitting in the passenger seat next to a driver who suddenly turns out to be having a stroke. At what point do you grab the wheel? Clearly, it's a very dangerous situation that you don't want to happen, and certainly not on a regular basis.

tremon 9y ago
But if the driver is having a stroke, you could likely get visual or auditory cues from the driver, you wouldn't have to infer it from the vehicle behaviour.

KarenSatantsby 9y ago

Driving a 2017 Corolla on busy highway is more exhausting than driving a 2007 Honda civic - the Corolla has all this stuf like it moves the stearing wheel if I drift complains if I dont signal and jerks the wheel - slows down on cruis control and then speeds up.. I would be out of it driving a more bossy car like a tesla. I would rather the car just do the driving rather than act like my dad when I was 15.

nojvek 9y ago

If it’s a car that doesn’t require human driver to have her/his hands on the steering wheel at all times, and it crashes. It’s the car’s fault. i.e it collided into another semi-stationary object when it could steer away or brake. This should be a law. #1 job of any self driving system is to avoid obstacles. If you can’t do that reliably, it’s a fail!

Balgair 9y ago
It is going to come down to the insurance companies. These first few crashes are going to be a nightmare of legal issues and set a lot of precedent. Likely, Tesla and the others are not going to be fined a lot, but they are going to be held accountable in some small way. As such, the insurance companies are going to set very stringent requirements for the 'new' auto-driving features or they are going to come up with some crazy clauses when using the features.