8 ms·

Seattle's New Normal: Homelessness Is Now Middle Class

76 points by viburnum 9y ago

GauntletWizard 9y ago
In a lot of ways I envy these people; there's a lot of hardship they face with the lack of permanent address, and I can't imagine that RV living is incredibly pleasant nor cheap compared to more conventional housing, but they're also untethered in ways that make living "normally" seem like the crazy proposition. Job stability is basically out the window in the modern economy, so why tether yourself to a lease? With the gig economy, RV living allows you, at least theoretically, to follow the jobs in a way most only dream of. In rising housing prices, it's stable rent by comparison. Being able to take your whole home with you on vacation is another huge plus.
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  In a lot of ways I envy these people; there's a lot of hardship they face with the lack of permanent address, and I can't imagine that RV living is incredibly pleasant nor cheap compared to more conventional house, but they're also untethered in ways that make living "normally" seem like the crazy proposition. When it’s a choice you get to make, not when it’s your only choice. Don’t you have a shred of empathy? Envy them... Jesus Christ this site! Freedom from dignity or the respect of your peers, of stability, of the ability to start or raise a family, and freedom from much of the dating pool. As a bonus you get to wonder when what little you have might vanish and you’re “free” from that too, and “free” to live on the streets.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    yea man people here are comically out of touch with reality sometimes.
- kradeelav 9y ago
  When you're healthy (physical, mental, what have you), there's no dependents to worry about, no worries about personal safety at night, and a reasonable ability to walk into an average retail store and pick up a job ... that's one thing. Unfortunately a great deal of homeless folks don't fit into that very narrow criteria (much narrower than I expect most folks to realize), and so it's a metaphorical nightmare of a gun-in-the-head to take. Sometimes literally.
- gregatragenet3 9y ago
  Sorry you are getting downvoted into oblivion. From the descriptions in this article it does sound like a solidly middle-class couple who are _choosing_ to live this lifestyle. Money is not tight if they are Lyft'ing to the grocery store etc. There are a lot of people who just assume if you are in a boat or RV you are destitute or mentally ill. If this describes you, check your assumptions. Maybe they are just not bought into the 'work yourself to death to buy/rent a house as big as you can afford and then fill it with junk you dont want or need' I and my wife lived in our RV in silicon valley (thanks San Jose elks lodge) for a period of time. We chose a lifestyle where I would do consulting for six months a year in SV and then travel for 6 months. After several years of renting, furnishing, establishing utilities in a place only to unwind that all a few months later, we thought just getting an RV and staying in it was a better solution. So for several years we'd spend six months in the RV in San Jose, and then the other six months doing things like road tripping through Alaska, hanging out in Key West, sailing the Mexican riviera etc. There's definitely some downsides to living in a small space, with a low level of stability - but in that phase of our life the trade-off to be able to travel for months at a time was well worth it.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
booblik 9y ago
This is bullshit. Lyft line show you where it’s gonna drop the next passenger, you can’t be “surprised” by the route.
jseliger 9y ago
Seattle has done better on housing than SF, but not nearly good enough: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-fut.... And note the date stamp on that.
jorblumesea 9y ago
Charles Mudede is the Stranger's equivalent of an internet troll. As soon as I saw the title I knew he wrote this. No one in the region takes him seriously as a journalistic force. Sweeping generalizations? Check One sided / shallow presentation of complex societal issues? Check Half baked rant out the changing nature of the city? Check Here's another one of his gems: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/10/17/25475173/big-umbrellas-must-be-banned-in-seattle https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/10/17/25475173/big-umb... The middle class in Seattle doesn't live in an RV in Seattle. They live in Auburn, Burien, Renton, Lynnwood, and Everett. Same is true for any other large city, no? How many middle class people live in downtown Boston, or San Jose?
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  Wow, I read your comment first and thought you were exaggerating but this article about the Bay Area van life that just popped up has more facts about Seattle than this Stranger article. https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/Vanlife-Bay-Area-residents-living-rv-mobile-home-12732484.php https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/Vanli...
freejulian 9y ago
Don’t worry guys, we just need a few more rounds of QE to fix the economy.
- NotSammyHagar 9y ago
  You mean tax cuts.
  - freejulian 9y ago
    I mean, QE was the medicine prescribed post 2008. Seems to have worked out well for the asset holders. Everyone else, not so much. Thanks Obama!
nitwit005 9y ago
I wouldn't classify living in an RV as "homeless". Lots of people do that and just pick up mail in a post office box. There are people near me living on boats, because the monthly slip fees are cheaper than rent. That doesn't make them homeless or poor.
- scurvy 9y ago
  Sleepless in Seattle anyone?
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    House boats on lake union are pretty expensive these days and definitely not a way to save on rent.
    - astrodust 9y ago
      I looked at that as an option here (Toronto) to escape ridiculous rents and the price of a berth is absolutely astronomical. The boats themselves sell in excess of $700K, which while cheaper than a house, a house doesn't have $3000/mo. plus in berthing fees.
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  RV is unstable housing which is categorized as homeless. Boat slips are long term housing.
- pnathan 9y ago
  In Seattle, most of the RV people tend to be homeless and use the RV to camp out in on-street parking. It's a big issue.
jerkstate 9y ago
I've heard a lot lately about people who avoid many expenses, including rent, in order to save a lot from decent jobs and retire early. If the author of this blog post had talked to them, maybe conclusions could have been drawn.
- dmcdm 9y ago
  Yeah, it seems likely the author is just in that majority class of people who cannot conceive of any living arrangement outside the conventional stick-and-mortar dwelling bound to property or rent. That is, after all, what the ``American Dream'' of the past 100 years-or-so was built upon.
  - drak0n1c 9y ago
    The Stranger is a notorious left-wing tabloid that loves to pick fights with the rest of the city, especially its more centrist rival, the Seattle Times. Stranger articles are consistently slanted with a pessimistic view of anything that doesn't help make life luxuriously comfortable for the 5% who choose to lead alternative lifestyles.
whoisjuan 9y ago
This is a bullshit story for sure. Anyone who lives in Seattle knows this is simply not true. If you move south to Kent or Tacoma you will find a lot of places with a decent rent. Same if you start moving north to Shoreline and above. Those places are not far from Seattle. If you live in a freaking RV in downtown that's definitely your choice.
- UnpossibleJim 9y ago
  I don't make 250k, my wife's income included, and we own a home just north of Seattle. I bus it in and she drives to her job in Ballard. That must be some new hipster trend, 'cause that ain't forced =[
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    What does “just North of Seattle” mean? What city/neighborhood? And more importantly when did you buy it?
    - techsupporter 9y ago
      Agreed. There is a huge difference in having bought just three or four years ago versus now. The median price in the city has skyrocketed to $777k and on the Eastside it's just short of $1 million. Even in Shoreline, I don't see anything for under $400k on Redfin. "Just north of Seattle" used to mean Shoreline or Lake Forest Park. These days, it's the Alderwood side of Lynnwood and almost up to Paine Field. (Also, there's a pretty big gap in salary of "we don't make $250k and we own." It's possible to buy a $600k house on under $200k/year and $600k will still buy you something even in Bellevue.)
      - debatem1 9y ago
        We bought about two years ago and live in Wallingford. It's starting to get crazy but there are still reasonable places to be had, especially as you get into summer. Seems to work out, and we're very happy with the area.
toomuchtodo 9y ago
This is why cities should be turning away Amazon's HQ2.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  One couple choosing to live in an RV doesn't make a good argument for that.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    Agree! Here's a better data point, where the Seattle mayor says as much (while announcing $100 million investment in affordable housing because there is so little). “Too many long-time residents are getting locked out and pushed out of Seattle,” Durkan said in a statement. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-to-spend-100-million-on-affordable-housing-including-for-9-new-apartment-buildings/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-t... That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech companies in the world to your town. Available housing declines, it takes far too long in the feedback cycle for new housing to be built, and you've made the city marginally worse for anyone who isn't a tech worker.
    - jonknee 9y ago
      > That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech companies in the world to your town. Available housing declines, it takes far too long in the feedback cycle for new housing to be built, and you've made the city marginally worse for anyone who isn't a tech worker. On the other hand, your city gets a ton more wealthy and existing homeowners essentially win the lottery.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        Sounds terrible for urban planning and quality of life.
    - tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
TACIXAT 9y ago
I joke that the way to afford rent in LA is to live in your car. I grew up there and last visit I had one friend who sleeps in his van when he sublets his apartment and another who was looking to buy a van to live rent free for a while. It's amazing that we haven't started building upward yet.
- s0rce 9y ago
  A van parked at the Berkeley Marina is looking like a pretty good option in the bay area. I could sublet my Piedmont place and spend the few thousand on some sweet van digs.
  - icantdrive55 9y ago
    Be very stealthy. Cops go out of their way to hassle people whom sleep in their vechicles. My biggest gripe about The Land of the Free is there's literally know where to sleep for free without breaking some law. (I had two friends who tried to live in their vans, and they were harassed beyond belief. One friend had a big friendly dog. This big stupid cop started banging on the van. The dog barked. The guy warned the cop about the dog. The cop opened the back of the van, and shot the dog. It happened in the Bay Area 15 years ago. I'm angry just writing about it.)
- JBlue42 9y ago
  I worked with someone that was living on an boat he had purchased (for not much) in Marina del Rey. He would commute by motorcycle (much cheaper than a car) and was probably making a minimum of $50k-60k. Seems like a smart way to save money if you can make the space sacrifice.
Barjak 9y ago
I don't have many data points on Seattle, but I'm reminded of this article from a couple years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459698 Seattle was also one of those cities hostile to jitneys. http://mynorthwest.com/152499/political-promise-personal-vehicles-spelled-doom-for-seattles-jitneys/ http://mynorthwest.com/152499/political-promise-personal-veh...? So my impression is that Seattle often jumps the gun regulating things away--banning things that actually increase quality of life/spending power. We all know that those without discretionary income are the first to feel drops in spending power (due to regulation, etc.). I'm also reminded of a great chapter in "Downtown: Its Rise and Fall" which talks about the special interests behind and the consequences of tenement reform, consequences which were largely negative if you were poor. I can't help wondering if similar forces have led to Seattle's present-day predicaments.
- NotSammyHagar 9y ago
  what does it matter whether seattle is hostile to jitneys? (a word whose definition I just learned). I see lots of private small buses around seattle. buses for google, tmobile, i think facebook, and many unsigned buses.
somethingsimple 9y ago
I would be willing to bet that that couple lives in an RV because they want to, not because they need to. It’s the kind of thing my wife and I might have done if we didn’t have a kid.
throwaway84742 9y ago
I live in the area, and I actually have calculated how much an upper middle class existence would cost for a family of 3. $90k or so. Upper middle class mortgage from 2012, taxes, one midrange car loan, medical insurance, utilities, food, other insurance, one decent vacation a year. Pretty good lifestyle, all in all. As a family of 3 you don’t even have to work that hard to earn this amount in Seattle area. So I have a fairly limited amount of compassion towards the dwellers of tent cities etc.
- erentz 9y ago
  Wait, seriously? Can you provide the data? I think you have a seriously huge hole in your model if you're basing your housing costs on a mortgage on a 2012 priced house. Try nearly doubling that part.
- seattle_spring 9y ago
  A mortgage on a $90k income would responsibly top out under $300k, and that's after putting down 20%. Average house in Seattle today runs just about $800k. It was closer to $400k in 2012. Unless you come back and specify that you meant Kent or Renton, $90k unquestionably and unarguably would not provide an upper middle class lifestyle in Seattle. Not in 2012, and definitely not today.
- vanilla_nut 9y ago
  Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm really curious where you got your numbers from though, because on 90k salary, your (twice-monthly) paycheck should end up around $2800, before subtracting things like social security/etc. So you probably take home a little less than $5k/month at the end of it all. Of note in your calculations: - upper middle class mortgage from 2012. According to zillow [1], median home price in 2012 was $353k. Today it's $800k, over twice that -- 2012 was the worst year in a long time for Seattle housing. Probably 2k/month, right? At 90k, that's going to be about 50% of your salary after tax -- not abysmal, but certainly not close to the 1/3 rule I've always been told. Then again, it's owning rather than renting, so maybe it's justifiable. Biggest problem I see here is that there aren't that many folks who managed to buy their house at the best possible time to do so, and anybody who's moved to Seattle since 2012 is going to pay closer to $4k/month for that same home. --one midrange car loan: I don't think just one car would be very comfortable for a family of three living in the suburbs of Seattle. Again, doable -- maybe only one parent works, and the child is young, so you could carpool to school/one job/other job, but it sounds like a lot of commuting for whoever has to drop off the others. In Seattle traffic, that could easily end up being 2 hours of driving just to get to and from work, every morning and every evening. Doesn't leave much room for flexibility though. According to Experian Automotive, the average American monthly car payment is $500 [2]. -medical insurance: assuming this isn't provided by your employer, I could easily see this eating the rest of your income after tax. I pray that anybody in this situation has insurance through work. Apparently the average American family is spending between $10k-$20k on insurance, including deductibles [3], so... $1k-$2k/month. So if nobody gets sick in this family, you've still got $1k/month for food and luxuries like eating out, going to concerts, or activities outside of work. -one decent vacation a year: I never vacationed growing up (family was relatively poor), but I'd guess that for a family of three any real vacation is going to end up in the thousands (my guess would be around $3-5k, though I have little idea). So maybe if you just spend $400-500/month on food, you could put away whatever's left (maybe $500, tops?) to take a vacation every year. So I suppose $90k is livable, based on what I see here. But it doesn't sound great, and doesn't leave much room for things like serious medical issues, buffer room if you get fired, or even the ability to pay for something like a summer program for your kid. And what about gifts for birthdays, or if your car breaks down, or you get robbed, etc. etc.? Sounds like you're working hard every day but never getting ahead. Oh, and now that I remember... what about saving for retirement, and saving for college (because you're making $90k, so the government isn't going to give your kid much financial assistance)? Well, I guess we'll just work forever, and the kid will take on $50k of debt to go to a cheaper state school. And then when she graduates and tries to live on $90k in Seattle, we'll have to take into account even worse housing prices AND her student loan payments... [1] https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/ [2] https://www.experian.com/assets/automotive/white-papers/experian-auto-2015-q2.pdf?WT.srch=Auto_Q12015FinanceTrends_PDF https://www.experian.com/assets/automotive/white-papers/expe... (warning: pdf) [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-a...
jlarocco 9y ago
She's jumping to conclusions. Lots of people enjoy living in camper vans and RVs. It's a fun, cheap, and adventurous way to live. I know people who own a house in a ski town, and they'll take off for weeks at a time living out of their camper van. TBH there's a good chance they make more money than the author.
- not_kurt_godel 9y ago
  There's a massive, massive, huge difference between voluntarily taking an extended trip in your 'camper van' (which is probably a $50k+ Mercedes or similar if the owners "own a house in a ski town") and having to live in a shitty, broken down RV as a home.
  - jlarocco 9y ago
    Of course, but the author didn't talk to them at all, and doesn't know anything about their situation except that they got out of the Uber at a van. Since they were Ubering around town instead of driving the van, I would assume they're probably not poor. But we'll never know because the "journalist" was too busy listening to music to find out the facts.
Apocryphon 9y ago
What's the next city to have the fate of Seattle and the Bay Area? Will it be Austin? Denver? Still somewhere else?
- joshuaheard 9y ago
  Like Manhattan, Seattle and San Francisco are extremely expensive for housing because the cities are surrounded by water. Hence, they have no place to expand the housing supply. Austin sits in the middle of a prairie, so there is plenty of room to grow, keeping prices reasonable.
mmaunder 9y ago
Homelessness is middle class in Rio and Cape Town and Johannesburg. What that means is that hundreds of thousands of people in those cities live in informal settlements in houses built on dirt out of trash and scrap.
mbid 9y ago
Thank god the author told us which songs he was listening to. The story would've been incomprehensible otherwise.
jinushaun 9y ago
It’s the Stranger. I trust it as a news source as much as I trust Breitbart. Mudede, the author, is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

76 points by viburnum 9y ago

In a lot of ways I envy these people; there's a lot of hardship they face with the lack of permanent address, and I can't imagine that RV living is incredibly pleasant nor cheap compared to more conventional housing, but they're also untethered in ways that make living "normally" seem like the crazy proposition. Job stability is basically out the window in the modern economy, so why tether yourself to a lease? With the gig economy, RV living allows you, at least theoretically, to follow the jobs in a way most only dream of. In rising housing prices, it's stable rent by comparison. Being able to take your whole home with you on vacation is another huge plus.

Erlangolem 9y ago
In a lot of ways I envy these people; there's a lot of hardship they face with the lack of permanent address, and I can't imagine that RV living is incredibly pleasant nor cheap compared to more conventional house, but they're also untethered in ways that make living "normally" seem like the crazy proposition. When it’s a choice you get to make, not when it’s your only choice. Don’t you have a shred of empathy? Envy them... Jesus Christ this site! Freedom from dignity or the respect of your peers, of stability, of the ability to start or raise a family, and freedom from much of the dating pool. As a bonus you get to wonder when what little you have might vanish and you’re “free” from that too, and “free” to live on the streets.
- mlevental 9y ago
  yea man people here are comically out of touch with reality sometimes.
kradeelav 9y ago
When you're healthy (physical, mental, what have you), there's no dependents to worry about, no worries about personal safety at night, and a reasonable ability to walk into an average retail store and pick up a job ... that's one thing. Unfortunately a great deal of homeless folks don't fit into that very narrow criteria (much narrower than I expect most folks to realize), and so it's a metaphorical nightmare of a gun-in-the-head to take. Sometimes literally.
gregatragenet3 9y ago
Sorry you are getting downvoted into oblivion. From the descriptions in this article it does sound like a solidly middle-class couple who are _choosing_ to live this lifestyle. Money is not tight if they are Lyft'ing to the grocery store etc. There are a lot of people who just assume if you are in a boat or RV you are destitute or mentally ill. If this describes you, check your assumptions. Maybe they are just not bought into the 'work yourself to death to buy/rent a house as big as you can afford and then fill it with junk you dont want or need' I and my wife lived in our RV in silicon valley (thanks San Jose elks lodge) for a period of time. We chose a lifestyle where I would do consulting for six months a year in SV and then travel for 6 months. After several years of renting, furnishing, establishing utilities in a place only to unwind that all a few months later, we thought just getting an RV and staying in it was a better solution. So for several years we'd spend six months in the RV in San Jose, and then the other six months doing things like road tripping through Alaska, hanging out in Key West, sailing the Mexican riviera etc. There's definitely some downsides to living in a small space, with a low level of stability - but in that phase of our life the trade-off to be able to travel for months at a time was well worth it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

booblik 9y ago

This is bullshit. Lyft line show you where it’s gonna drop the next passenger, you can’t be “surprised” by the route.

jseliger 9y ago

Seattle has done better on housing than SF, but not nearly good enough: https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-future-in-seattle-do-millennials-have-a-future-in-any-superstar-cities https://jakeseliger.com/2015/09/24/do-millennials-have-a-fut.... And note the date stamp on that.

jorblumesea 9y ago

Charles Mudede is the Stranger's equivalent of an internet troll. As soon as I saw the title I knew he wrote this. No one in the region takes him seriously as a journalistic force. Sweeping generalizations? Check One sided / shallow presentation of complex societal issues? Check Half baked rant out the changing nature of the city? Check Here's another one of his gems: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/10/17/25475173/big-umbrellas-must-be-banned-in-seattle https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/10/17/25475173/big-umb... The middle class in Seattle doesn't live in an RV in Seattle. They live in Auburn, Burien, Renton, Lynnwood, and Everett. Same is true for any other large city, no? How many middle class people live in downtown Boston, or San Jose?

stevenwoo 9y ago
Wow, I read your comment first and thought you were exaggerating but this article about the Bay Area van life that just popped up has more facts about Seattle than this Stranger article. https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/Vanlife-Bay-Area-residents-living-rv-mobile-home-12732484.php https://www.sfgate.com/expensive-san-francisco/article/Vanli...

freejulian 9y ago

Don’t worry guys, we just need a few more rounds of QE to fix the economy.

NotSammyHagar 9y ago
You mean tax cuts.
- freejulian 9y ago
  I mean, QE was the medicine prescribed post 2008. Seems to have worked out well for the asset holders. Everyone else, not so much. Thanks Obama!

nitwit005 9y ago

I wouldn't classify living in an RV as "homeless". Lots of people do that and just pick up mail in a post office box. There are people near me living on boats, because the monthly slip fees are cheaper than rent. That doesn't make them homeless or poor.

scurvy 9y ago
Sleepless in Seattle anyone?
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  House boats on lake union are pretty expensive these days and definitely not a way to save on rent.
  - astrodust 9y ago
    I looked at that as an option here (Toronto) to escape ridiculous rents and the price of a berth is absolutely astronomical. The boats themselves sell in excess of $700K, which while cheaper than a house, a house doesn't have $3000/mo. plus in berthing fees.
fjsolwmv 9y ago
RV is unstable housing which is categorized as homeless. Boat slips are long term housing.
pnathan 9y ago
In Seattle, most of the RV people tend to be homeless and use the RV to camp out in on-street parking. It's a big issue.

jerkstate 9y ago

I've heard a lot lately about people who avoid many expenses, including rent, in order to save a lot from decent jobs and retire early. If the author of this blog post had talked to them, maybe conclusions could have been drawn.

dmcdm 9y ago
Yeah, it seems likely the author is just in that majority class of people who cannot conceive of any living arrangement outside the conventional stick-and-mortar dwelling bound to property or rent. That is, after all, what the ``American Dream'' of the past 100 years-or-so was built upon.
- drak0n1c 9y ago
  The Stranger is a notorious left-wing tabloid that loves to pick fights with the rest of the city, especially its more centrist rival, the Seattle Times. Stranger articles are consistently slanted with a pessimistic view of anything that doesn't help make life luxuriously comfortable for the 5% who choose to lead alternative lifestyles.

whoisjuan 9y ago

This is a bullshit story for sure. Anyone who lives in Seattle knows this is simply not true. If you move south to Kent or Tacoma you will find a lot of places with a decent rent. Same if you start moving north to Shoreline and above. Those places are not far from Seattle. If you live in a freaking RV in downtown that's definitely your choice.

UnpossibleJim 9y ago
I don't make 250k, my wife's income included, and we own a home just north of Seattle. I bus it in and she drives to her job in Ballard. That must be some new hipster trend, 'cause that ain't forced =[
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  What does “just North of Seattle” mean? What city/neighborhood? And more importantly when did you buy it?
  - techsupporter 9y ago
    Agreed. There is a huge difference in having bought just three or four years ago versus now. The median price in the city has skyrocketed to $777k and on the Eastside it's just short of $1 million. Even in Shoreline, I don't see anything for under $400k on Redfin. "Just north of Seattle" used to mean Shoreline or Lake Forest Park. These days, it's the Alderwood side of Lynnwood and almost up to Paine Field. (Also, there's a pretty big gap in salary of "we don't make $250k and we own." It's possible to buy a $600k house on under $200k/year and $600k will still buy you something even in Bellevue.)
    - debatem1 9y ago
      We bought about two years ago and live in Wallingford. It's starting to get crazy but there are still reasonable places to be had, especially as you get into summer. Seems to work out, and we're very happy with the area.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

This is why cities should be turning away Amazon's HQ2.

tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
One couple choosing to live in an RV doesn't make a good argument for that.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  Agree! Here's a better data point, where the Seattle mayor says as much (while announcing $100 million investment in affordable housing because there is so little). “Too many long-time residents are getting locked out and pushed out of Seattle,” Durkan said in a statement. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-to-spend-100-million-on-affordable-housing-including-for-9-new-apartment-buildings/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-t... That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech companies in the world to your town. Available housing declines, it takes far too long in the feedback cycle for new housing to be built, and you've made the city marginally worse for anyone who isn't a tech worker.
  - jonknee 9y ago
    > That's why it's not the best idea to use subsidies to lure one of the largest tech companies in the world to your town. Available housing declines, it takes far too long in the feedback cycle for new housing to be built, and you've made the city marginally worse for anyone who isn't a tech worker. On the other hand, your city gets a ton more wealthy and existing homeowners essentially win the lottery.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      Sounds terrible for urban planning and quality of life.
  - tytytytytytytyt 9y ago

TACIXAT 9y ago

I joke that the way to afford rent in LA is to live in your car. I grew up there and last visit I had one friend who sleeps in his van when he sublets his apartment and another who was looking to buy a van to live rent free for a while. It's amazing that we haven't started building upward yet.

s0rce 9y ago
A van parked at the Berkeley Marina is looking like a pretty good option in the bay area. I could sublet my Piedmont place and spend the few thousand on some sweet van digs.
- icantdrive55 9y ago
  Be very stealthy. Cops go out of their way to hassle people whom sleep in their vechicles. My biggest gripe about The Land of the Free is there's literally know where to sleep for free without breaking some law. (I had two friends who tried to live in their vans, and they were harassed beyond belief. One friend had a big friendly dog. This big stupid cop started banging on the van. The dog barked. The guy warned the cop about the dog. The cop opened the back of the van, and shot the dog. It happened in the Bay Area 15 years ago. I'm angry just writing about it.)
JBlue42 9y ago
I worked with someone that was living on an boat he had purchased (for not much) in Marina del Rey. He would commute by motorcycle (much cheaper than a car) and was probably making a minimum of $50k-60k. Seems like a smart way to save money if you can make the space sacrifice.

Barjak 9y ago

I don't have many data points on Seattle, but I'm reminded of this article from a couple years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12459698 Seattle was also one of those cities hostile to jitneys. http://mynorthwest.com/152499/political-promise-personal-vehicles-spelled-doom-for-seattles-jitneys/ http://mynorthwest.com/152499/political-promise-personal-veh...? So my impression is that Seattle often jumps the gun regulating things away--banning things that actually increase quality of life/spending power. We all know that those without discretionary income are the first to feel drops in spending power (due to regulation, etc.). I'm also reminded of a great chapter in "Downtown: Its Rise and Fall" which talks about the special interests behind and the consequences of tenement reform, consequences which were largely negative if you were poor. I can't help wondering if similar forces have led to Seattle's present-day predicaments.

NotSammyHagar 9y ago
what does it matter whether seattle is hostile to jitneys? (a word whose definition I just learned). I see lots of private small buses around seattle. buses for google, tmobile, i think facebook, and many unsigned buses.

somethingsimple 9y ago

I would be willing to bet that that couple lives in an RV because they want to, not because they need to. It’s the kind of thing my wife and I might have done if we didn’t have a kid.

throwaway84742 9y ago

I live in the area, and I actually have calculated how much an upper middle class existence would cost for a family of 3. $90k or so. Upper middle class mortgage from 2012, taxes, one midrange car loan, medical insurance, utilities, food, other insurance, one decent vacation a year. Pretty good lifestyle, all in all. As a family of 3 you don’t even have to work that hard to earn this amount in Seattle area. So I have a fairly limited amount of compassion towards the dwellers of tent cities etc.

erentz 9y ago
Wait, seriously? Can you provide the data? I think you have a seriously huge hole in your model if you're basing your housing costs on a mortgage on a 2012 priced house. Try nearly doubling that part.
seattle_spring 9y ago
A mortgage on a $90k income would responsibly top out under $300k, and that's after putting down 20%. Average house in Seattle today runs just about $800k. It was closer to $400k in 2012. Unless you come back and specify that you meant Kent or Renton, $90k unquestionably and unarguably would not provide an upper middle class lifestyle in Seattle. Not in 2012, and definitely not today.
vanilla_nut 9y ago
Interesting. Would you mind posting some of your calculations/data here? I live in NYC myself -- probably a bit more expensive than Seattle -- but even as a single, young, healthy person, $90k wouldn't feel very comfortable here. I make a lot more than that because I work in tech, but I'm still concerned about retirement plans (is $18k/year in my 401k really enough? What if market returns start to stagnate?). I'm really curious where you got your numbers from though, because on 90k salary, your (twice-monthly) paycheck should end up around $2800, before subtracting things like social security/etc. So you probably take home a little less than $5k/month at the end of it all. Of note in your calculations: - upper middle class mortgage from 2012. According to zillow [1], median home price in 2012 was $353k. Today it's $800k, over twice that -- 2012 was the worst year in a long time for Seattle housing. Probably 2k/month, right? At 90k, that's going to be about 50% of your salary after tax -- not abysmal, but certainly not close to the 1/3 rule I've always been told. Then again, it's owning rather than renting, so maybe it's justifiable. Biggest problem I see here is that there aren't that many folks who managed to buy their house at the best possible time to do so, and anybody who's moved to Seattle since 2012 is going to pay closer to $4k/month for that same home. --one midrange car loan: I don't think just one car would be very comfortable for a family of three living in the suburbs of Seattle. Again, doable -- maybe only one parent works, and the child is young, so you could carpool to school/one job/other job, but it sounds like a lot of commuting for whoever has to drop off the others. In Seattle traffic, that could easily end up being 2 hours of driving just to get to and from work, every morning and every evening. Doesn't leave much room for flexibility though. According to Experian Automotive, the average American monthly car payment is $500 [2]. -medical insurance: assuming this isn't provided by your employer, I could easily see this eating the rest of your income after tax. I pray that anybody in this situation has insurance through work. Apparently the average American family is spending between $10k-$20k on insurance, including deductibles [3], so... $1k-$2k/month. So if nobody gets sick in this family, you've still got $1k/month for food and luxuries like eating out, going to concerts, or activities outside of work. -one decent vacation a year: I never vacationed growing up (family was relatively poor), but I'd guess that for a family of three any real vacation is going to end up in the thousands (my guess would be around $3-5k, though I have little idea). So maybe if you just spend $400-500/month on food, you could put away whatever's left (maybe $500, tops?) to take a vacation every year. So I suppose $90k is livable, based on what I see here. But it doesn't sound great, and doesn't leave much room for things like serious medical issues, buffer room if you get fired, or even the ability to pay for something like a summer program for your kid. And what about gifts for birthdays, or if your car breaks down, or you get robbed, etc. etc.? Sounds like you're working hard every day but never getting ahead. Oh, and now that I remember... what about saving for retirement, and saving for college (because you're making $90k, so the government isn't going to give your kid much financial assistance)? Well, I guess we'll just work forever, and the kid will take on $50k of debt to go to a cheaper state school. And then when she graduates and tries to live on $90k in Seattle, we'll have to take into account even worse housing prices AND her student loan payments... [1] https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/ https://www.zillow.com/seattle-wa/home-values/ [2] https://www.experian.com/assets/automotive/white-papers/experian-auto-2015-q2.pdf?WT.srch=Auto_Q12015FinanceTrends_PDF https://www.experian.com/assets/automotive/white-papers/expe... (warning: pdf) [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-a...

jlarocco 9y ago

She's jumping to conclusions. Lots of people enjoy living in camper vans and RVs. It's a fun, cheap, and adventurous way to live. I know people who own a house in a ski town, and they'll take off for weeks at a time living out of their camper van. TBH there's a good chance they make more money than the author.

not_kurt_godel 9y ago
There's a massive, massive, huge difference between voluntarily taking an extended trip in your 'camper van' (which is probably a $50k+ Mercedes or similar if the owners "own a house in a ski town") and having to live in a shitty, broken down RV as a home.
- jlarocco 9y ago
  Of course, but the author didn't talk to them at all, and doesn't know anything about their situation except that they got out of the Uber at a van. Since they were Ubering around town instead of driving the van, I would assume they're probably not poor. But we'll never know because the "journalist" was too busy listening to music to find out the facts.

Apocryphon 9y ago

What's the next city to have the fate of Seattle and the Bay Area? Will it be Austin? Denver? Still somewhere else?

joshuaheard 9y ago
Like Manhattan, Seattle and San Francisco are extremely expensive for housing because the cities are surrounded by water. Hence, they have no place to expand the housing supply. Austin sits in the middle of a prairie, so there is plenty of room to grow, keeping prices reasonable.

mmaunder 9y ago

Homelessness is middle class in Rio and Cape Town and Johannesburg. What that means is that hundreds of thousands of people in those cities live in informal settlements in houses built on dirt out of trash and scrap.

mbid 9y ago

Thank god the author told us which songs he was listening to. The story would've been incomprehensible otherwise.

jinushaun 9y ago

It’s the Stranger. I trust it as a news source as much as I trust Breitbart. Mudede, the author, is a paranoid conspiracy theorist.