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Apple Is Developing Its Own Screens for the First Time
- bwilliams18 9y agoThe unattributed quotes in the story say a lot. Apple employees with that level of information don't have casual, off the cuff, and not-for-attribution conversations with Journalists by mistake or by accident. I suspect this was a purposeful and controlled leak.
- boombip 9y agoTo what end? A shot across the bows of screen manufacturers? I suppose that's possible, to try and force screen manufacturers (i.e. Samsung) to cooperate on production costs for existing screens. But that doesn't seem like a useful negotiating tactic to me and it would probably be more useful to keep this secret until scale manufacturing deals have been signed and work has started.
- ghfbjdhhv 9y agoIt seems that having this kind of information out there would be of benefit to Apple in negotiations with screen manufacturers eg. it could make suppliers more willing to sign a long-term deal at lower rates than they might otherwise, due to the fear of being dumped in the future. Another potential purpose for such a leak would be to boost the stock price.
- ckastner 9y agoA better negotiation position would have been my first guess, too. > The screens are far more difficult to produce than OLED displays, and the company almost killed the project a year or so ago [...] consumers will probably have to wait a few years before seeing the results. So the best-case scenario is that Apple finishes developing this technology in a few years, and the worst-case scenario is that they kill this development, which almost happened already. This could go either way both for Apple and for screen manufacturers. It only makes sense to explore an option without all this uncertainty, by seeking a new middle ground.
- joezydeco 9y agoIt would also create a bidding war to be the approved company to scale this up to production levels. Apple may be prototyping a dozen screens at a time, but they'll let someone else build the factory to produce millions a year.
- sebiol 9y agoTo me it depends. You might not actually want to produce your own screens, or what ever else you currently buy instead of making it yourself. Because that would require dedicated resources, diverted from your core competencies. But you might have someone, or a small team, look into it. Work out what you might need to do, what it is going to cost. Then you take that research and knock on your suppliers door and ask for a better price. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, but it could be a viable negotiation strategy.
- simonh 9y agoApple has frequently used exclusive advanced screen technology as a differentiating factor in their products. Retina displays, better colour fidelity, wide colour gamut, 5K, etc. Previously they have done so by working together with screen manufacturers and underwriting the development of such technologies, the tool chains and manufacturing buildout with massive (Bns of dollar) loans, but actually owning the patents, tool chain and manufacturing gives them even more control and exclusivity.
- gutnor 9y agoSamsung stock did take a hit as a result of this. Another possibility is a fabricated leak for a pump and dump style scheme. Seems indeed very little interest for Apple. I'm sure any effect of a public leak can be as efficiently done with regular phone call. By shear size, Apple is very close to all its providers, the "pride and prejudice" drama is creative license of the media to animate what is mostly regular boring corporate interactions.
- addicted 9y agoI don't know whether this is a purposeful leak or not but there are several reasons Apple may want to. Besides the ones others have mentioned a few other are: 1) Part of being an Apple fan is the steady stream of rumors that keep people excited. Even if they don't pan out. So keeping the fan base interested. 2) Apple, unlike its competitors does not reveal its research unless it has a product to sell. This often leads to accusations of being less innovative than others. This helps maintajn the impression that they are an innovative company the way releasing proof of concepts or innovative, yet unsuccessful, products work for its competitors. 3) This may lead competitors into wild goose chase a especially if Apple has determined that it's a technology that isn't going anywhere 4) It may prod suppliers into investing in researching such technologies. If they know that Apple is interested in a technology, it gives every screen manufacturer a huge incentive to put a lot of money into research that may lead to a product that Apple could just buy. (To be fair, it wiuld probably be easier to just tell the suppliers that they are interested in this).
- simonh 9y agoI don't buy any of that. The population of Apple customers that hang on leaks like this is relatively tiny and if they're that much of a fan they're hooked anyway. Minor leaks are going to happen whatever Apple does, so manufacturing them just isn't worthwhile. Then there's the problem that it's impossible to control the narrative on off the record leaks, and once you leak a supposedly 'desirable' amount of information on a secret project, that's like blood in the water to the media sharks that will then savage the subject to death trying to get 'undesirable' amounts of information on it. The risks from that IMHO would massively outweigh the minuscule and highly arguable benefits from a minor leak. Small leaks have a tendency to turn into big leaks and Apple definitely doesn't want that to happen.
- vsc 9y ago>> Apple employees with that level of information don't have .... How can you say so? Can you back your statement up with some evidence or are you just saying what you've heard in folklore stories??
- ksec 9y agoI suspect this is the case here as well. Mark has never been quite accurate when it comes to hardware leaks, compared to Ming. My guess is all these are intentional from Apple, for a few reasons. OLED is expensive. I think Apple has learned its lesson with NAND, ( Where its projected NAND and SSD market cost does not align with reality ), Sharp does not yet have an OLED that is competitive, they are focusing on a different type of OLED technology that is much cheaper to manufacture, Ink Jet Print style OLED, one of the original promise of OLED was being even cheaper then LCD. But its quality is not on par with Samsung. Credit where Credit's due Samsung make amazing progress with AMOLED technology, if you think in the few years time what they have manage to achieve is uncanny. S9 now has the best possible display compared to even professional monitors. The only possible improvement left are brightness, power, price and longevity. Apart from Price, the other three will likely see improvement in Note 9, and more so in next iPhone. Samsung has been able to improve its OLED technology with every iteration twice or somecase three times every year. Apple is paying up to $100 a pc to Samsung for every OLED display. And if you include NAND & DRAM, which is extremely profitable in the last 2 years that is why people joke Samsung make more money selling components to Apple then selling its phone. While not entirely correct it is certainly not baseless. One reason why Apple will never move back to Samsung Fabs is to avoid putting too much egg in one basket. Despite the consistent rumours, which I guess is another play for TSMC to lower their price. Apple has literally NO other choice in OLED the market. As much as LG and BOE wants the business from Apple, both do not (yet) have the technology and capacity to output something similar to Samsung. Certainly not in this year's iPhone. I once written off BOE being far too early in the game, but it turns out BOE isn't far off, and are making much better progress. Compared to LG which I have no idea what they are doing in terms of Mobile Display. They seems to have difficulty getting it right, meanwhile their own WOLED display are much better. That is why I think the rumoured Apple investment in LG Display plant might have more to do with bigger WOLED screens then Smart Display. I think the larger 6.x" iPhone X Plus is pretty much guarantee this year. That display panel is going to be even more expensive. My problem with MicroLED is that it is still very much a fantasy, at least in terms of high PPI, mobile display panels. The MicroLED shown by Samsung "Wall" and Sony are completely different thing. When people talk about Mass-Transfer being the biggest obstacle, I have yet to see a single 600ppi+ MicroLED display that have said to solve their ultra low power passing through each and every pixel, being energy efficient as advertise, and brighter then LCD. ( Do Correct me If I am wrong ) Once they solve that, or at least being good enough to compared to OLED, they will have to solve Mass-transfer as well. Or using possibly other innovative method to mass manufacture. I wrote in 2015 MicroLED isn't going to happen as rumoured at the time for 2017, I wrote even 2018 is a bit of stretch given the best case scenario possible, and now as we stand my guess is that even 2020 seems unlikely. ( And I got Attacked by Apple Fans every time i said that, no wonder why some groups of people hate Apple's cult so much ) The good news is Apple is back on track again spending big in R&D. [1] So I hope I am wrong this time around. [1] https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2018/3/15/an-apple-rd-bonanza https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2018/3/15/an-apple-rd-bona...
- GeekyBear 9y agoThe lead author has long been acknowledged to have excellent sources within Apple. https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurman-apple-scoop https://www.recode.net/2016/6/1/11835514/bloomberg-mark-gurm... Then there is Ming-Chi Kuo who has excellent sources inside Apple's supply chain. The difference being that Gurman hears about things that Apple is working on, while Ming-Chi would be more likely to know about which of those things are going to be built at scale.
- exikyut 9y agoPerhaps not quite exactly on topic, but the multicolored red-yellow-white-blue diamond to the right of the front entrance caught my eye. It can be seen in here: https://i.imgur.com/naOuD3M.jpg https://i.imgur.com/naOuD3M.jpg This picture is not clear enough to make out what it is. I'm very curious what it could be. (Image source: https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifII5w8OiDbk/v2/-1x-1.jpg https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifII5w8OiDb...)
- narak 9y agoLooks like a hazmat diamond sign
- exikyut 9y agoAh, thanks!
- xevb3k 9y agoI think it’s a NFPA Hazardous materials sign: https://www.homelandsecurity.iowa.gov/programs/NFPA_704.html https://www.homelandsecurity.iowa.gov/programs/NFPA_704.html
- exikyut 9y agoAh, thanks!
- xt00 9y agoThat's a standard safety diamond, NFPA 704 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704 tells you what kind of hazardous materials are inside basically.
- exikyut 9y agoAh, thanks!
- pedalpete 9y agoI don't think this is very surprising for apple. The current screens are made by competitors (LG & Samsung), the screen is the main interface for most of Apple products, and Apple likes to have end-to-end control over their hardware. They're going to want to do custom design without the catching the attention of their competitors, or working directly with them.
- fouc 9y agoThey've often been leading in terms of build quality so it will be great to see if there's more progress to be made beyond retina displays.
- dingo_bat 9y agoRetina displays are already not the best in class and haven't been for some time. So yes, there's a lot more progress to be made and has been made by others :)
- addicted 9y agoI think Apple's strategy with the iPhone is (or should be if it isn't already) to leverage their enormous war funds to build unique competitive advantages. They used to do this with software. That's why we have OSX and iOS. They've expanded that to hardware already. The AX Processors, other smaller chips, camera. The screen is a natural extension of this idea.
- jjeaff 9y agoPeople always say they want end to end control. But they don't actually build anything. It seems they farm everything out to contractors. I.e. foxconn
- pedalpete 9y agoI think you're confusing end-to-end control with end-to-end construction. They don't care if they are the ones putting the screw in the whole, they want to know that they are the ones making the screw. It may seem like a small difference, but it is an important distinction.
- modeless 9y agoI'm glad to hear that big companies other than Samsung are in the running to develop MicroLED displays. MicroLED promises a huge improvement over all other emmissive display technologies in terms of quality and capabilities, if manufacturing can be figured out.
- xt00 9y agoSeems like the initial deployment of the microLED's into a smartwatch makes some sense.. But unclear how this would make any sense for a large size phone display. The sheer quantity of LED's that must be placed properly on a glass substrate would be quite high. However, the promise of microLED is pretty impressive if the manufacturing can be pulled off. Basic idea is small high performance LED's of Red, Green, Blue, that are of the inorganic variety -- so much higher performance than OLED. They can be larger fill factor since they are diced from a wafer and can be basically any size -- vs. OLED where each color is limited in size due to the manufacturing process -- basically due to the size of pin-holes put in a mask that hovers above the substrate surface (called a fine metal mask). The power, brightness, lifetime, and stability all likely would be quite high with the inorganic microLED's.. However, the cost is the challenge for sure. Its essentially equivalent to buying a bare wafer with millions of red, blue, and green LED's -- per each display. So say you want a 4kx2k display, well, that is 8 million LED's. If each one costs say $0.001 (a tenth of a cent), well, you have 3 * 8000 USD, so $24,000... so... clearly they need the LED's to be really, really, really, cheap -- say 10,000 per dollar.. which in the world of LED's would be super crazy crazy crazy cheap.
- coldtea 9y ago>Seems like the initial deployment of the microLED's into a smartwatch makes some sense.. But unclear how this would make any sense for a large size phone display. The sheer quantity of LED's that must be placed properly on a glass substrate would be quite high. How would it be different than producing screens for e.g. 10 watches (or what the analogous real estate is)?
- xbmcuser 9y agoApple has the money to build everything thmeselves. And something like screens that can give competitive advantage they are likely to produce themselves
- optimusrex 9y ago"Apple has a long history of developing components and engineering solutions in-house before seeding that information to manufacturing partners in Asia." https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/03/19/apple-developing-microled-tech-at-secret-facility-likely-to-debut-in-apple-watch https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/03/19/apple-developing-...
- saagarjha 9y ago> It’s big enough to get through the engineering builds [and] lets us keep everything in-house during the development stages. A tertiary benefit might be that controlling manufacturing of screens might reduce leaks as well.
- tunesmith 9y agoIs it ever going to be possible for a screen to be a camera, so you feel like you are making eye contact while video-chatting?
- sidcool 9y agoThat's a good idea. I am thinking of its possible use cases.
- walterbell 9y agoShift the image like a teleprompter? http://www.errolmorris.com/content/eyecontact/interrotron.html http://www.errolmorris.com/content/eyecontact/interrotron.ht... http://eyedirect.tv http://eyedirect.tv
- mrep 9y agoFire phone kind of did it with 4 front facing cameras but it totally flopped.
- Mononokay 9y agoI was just thinking about the FirePhone yesterday. Shame it didn't work out, I thought it was fairly neat.
- mrep 9y agoApple made 48 billion in profit on 229 billion in revenue in 2017. Granted, while Apple is the top smartphone seller and not all of their revenue/profit comes from the iphone, an Amazon bet that only loses 200 million this late in the game shows how much they underestimated the smartphone competition.
- gnicholas 9y agoApple filed patents many years ago for an array of photo sensors interspersed in between pixels on a display, which would enable this.
- mozumder 9y agoMicro LED displays will be an incredible advancement if it comes to fruition. They potentially have the capability to display the full Rec 2020 color gamut. Things will look indistinguishable from real life.
- aembleton 9y agoExcept they'll be emitting light which rarely happens in nature. I'd rather see transreflective screens which only use a backlight if it is needed. Most of the time, ambient light is sufficient for the display.
- RustySpottedCat 9y ago"promise to make future gadgets slimmer", isn't current oled technology, like, really slim? As in, paper thin?
- gordon_freeman 9y agoit is not only about making thinner devices just for the sake. It is also about making energy efficient devices. Current battery tech has not progressed leaps and bounds so I think Apple is trying other ways to make Apple products more energy efficient.
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- keyle 9y agoI didn't know the iPhone X is the first Apple device with OLED tech. I thought it was using OLED for a while. Does that explain the fantastic battery usage on iPhone X or is that due to the double battery pack?
- saagarjha 9y agoActually, the first Apple device with OLED was Apple Watch.
- grecy 9y agoWhen they talked about the upcoming "modular" MacPro [1], Apple confirmed they will again sell a desktop display. I feel certain it will be at least 5k, and more likely 8k, and I've been wondering if they will make their own from the ground up like this article suggests for the smaller screens. [1] https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- est 9y agoSo what happens to Qualcomm's IMOD Mirasol display? Which was bought by Apple http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-over-qualcomms-imod-mirasol-display-lab-in-taiwan http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/12/15/apple-has-taken-ov... The Mirasol panel plant location is also Longtan, Taiwan.
- pipio21 9y agoRemember Apple bought Qualcom Mirasol displays. From my point of view, they did it to port the Mirasol technology to watches. It just makes sense that they want to have watches with battery that last at least a week or so without charging. Mirasol is just so great with color and outside light. But it requires an entire wafer per screen. It is an expensive process, but Apple has so much money it is nothing to them to jumpstart production. If they do it, they will have a product that has no competitors at all, at least until those patents last.
- laser 9y agoSeems like the right tech for a 2020 Apple AR headset?
- m3kw9 9y agoTim did say they want to control all essential tech for their products. As you can see how they have integrated iPad Pros screen with new controllers and pens to make the Pen work, they probably want absolute control on every parameter without any issues and secret leaks