25 ms·

Lead is even deadlier than was feared

227 points by Mononokay 9y ago

donutdan4114 9y ago
Hope they don't find out the same things about fluoride.
amelius 9y ago
What is still a safe lead blood value? And is there any merit in "chelation" therapies, as advocated on health websites, like this one, [1]? [1] https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-herbs-can-be-taken-for-chelation/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-herbs...
- arkades 9y ago
  There is not, insofar as lead tends to be either inspired or ingested in contaminated water. For most people, it's the former. The "oral chelators" just bind lead that is mixed in with them, stopping you from absorbing as much of it. That is, Senapati 2001 (the garlic-rat study) didn't give lead acetate in the morning and garlic in the afternoon; they intentionally mixed the two together. That is, oral intake of lead with oral intake of garlic, means maybe you shit out more lead with the garlic chelation agent. But lots of garlic will do nothing for water you drink later in the day, or the air passing into your lungs. There may be some additional anti-oxidant activity. Anti-oxidants are good for you across the board. Have at them. As to a safe blood lead level: depending on your local public health department, 5 mcg/dL will or should prompt public health action. <5mcg will usually prompt a doctor to start trying to figure out where you're exposed, and cut that exposure out. >5mcg turns into a little bit of a grey area depending on where you are, and by 10mcg your kid is getting chelation therapy. These numbers are built around children, not adults, because they're far more susceptible to the adverse effects of lead exposure. That said, we have not identified any safe lead level - every level that has been tested has been shown to be associated with some sort of negative cognitive developmental impact (Lanphear 2000). I feel comfortable saying the safe level is "0", but that's not medical consensus, that's just my opinion.
  - wonthegame 9y ago
    Just adding to your comment. Govt regulation for lead workers where I worked was about 1.4 micro mols of lead.
    - 2chen 9y ago
      Which is just an arbitrary number the government came up with because zero is obviously unreasonable for lead workers..
- manmal 9y ago
  Here is a small list of chelation agents hosted by the WHO: http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/applications/4_2_LeadOralChelators.pdf http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/... I guess chelation/elimination does work if the WHO writes about it. AFAIK lead is also stored in bones and probably within body tissues, so this might take a while.
- imcoconut 9y ago
  There is merit to chelation therapy as a means of eliminating mercury (and other heavy metals including lead) stored in the body, but many protocols, both alternative and conventional, don't consider the full complexities involved and can be more harmful than beneficial. There are a number of relevant factors including length of exposures (acute or chronic poisoning) and form of metal (organic, inorganic, metallic - for mercury at least). By far the best source I found on the topic is Andrew Cutler, a chemistry PhD from Princeton who was mercury poisoned himself and created an effective and safe protocol for removal. He has a strong background in kinetics, pharmacokinetics, and biochemistry in general, and recognized that the standard toxicological protocols for heavy metal treatment were very dangerous (e.g. infrequent high dose IV administrations of DMPS/DMSA) , especially for cases of chronic poisoning. According to Cutler, protocols such as the one you linked are very dangerous as they don't administer the chelating agent according to its metabolic half-life in the body (the half-lives of the chelating agents in cilantro and chlorella are unknown). As a result blood levels of the chelating agent and the metals fluctuate greatly. This can mobilize previously sequestered metals, but not provide the body enough time to properly eliminate them, which results in "re-poisoning" events. And when a large amount fat-loving free metals are released by the chelating agents within a short period of time, they often enter the central nervous system, settle there and exacerbate neurological symptoms. I have no background in chemistry, so that's my summary of what I've read. But I highly recommend his book [1] which focuses mostly on mercury, but he covers lead as well. There are a few interviews with him around the web as well [2]. Also happy to provide more info and sources as I have two of his books and they both cite a wide array of sources. [1] http://www.noamalgam.com/ http://www.noamalgam.com/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AQGrh0XMw&t=34s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AQGrh0XMw&t=34s
  - amelius 9y ago
    Hi, thanks, I know it's well-intended, but I can't find Cutler's work on PubMed, so I'm still wondering how legitimate this work is.
    - imcoconut 9y ago
      As I understand it, pubmed (and medline) only index a subset of medical research, and excludes most non-medical science research. As Cutler was a chemist, I'm not sure any articles of his would be indexed by pubmed. Scopus, which seems to be run by Elsevier, lists some abstracts and letters here (I have no idea how extensive this is) [1] [1] https://www.scopus.com/authid/detail.uri?authorId=7103370042 https://www.scopus.com/authid/detail.uri?authorId=7103370042
oldandtired 9y ago
Does anyone know of what foods mitigate the accumulation of lead or other heavy metals in the body?
- SQL2219 9y ago
  cilantro
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- adventured 9y ago
  Lipoic acid will remove some heavy metals from your body. It can also cross the blood-brain barrier and remove mercury, one of the few things that can.
  - DenisM 9y ago
    Is it folk wisdom? Or are there references to back it up?
    - freehunter 9y ago
      Everything in this thread that supposes to be medical advice is nonsense folk wisdom. If there was a medicine that cured lead poisoning we wouldn't have articles like this one.
- oldandtired 9y ago
  The reason I asked the question was to see if anyone had had medical advice on the subject. My father was a printer in the days when lead type was used. Over a long period of time he accumulated lead within his body. His doctor advised him to eat beetroot every day. Over a period of several months the amount of lead that had accumulated in his body was reduce to negligible amounts and he never had the problem again. Mind you, he still eats beetroot today and he is in his mid-eighties. He was in his mid-thirties when he started. I was wondering if others had been advised by their doctors on this subject.
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
"Looking back, it seems insane. Bluntly put, we took a known poison and – for three quarters of a century – used it in machines that puffed it out in breathable form. Then we drove them millions of miles a day, all over the world, regularly dosing billions of people with the toxin." We are still doing just that, even though we are using milder poisons now.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Well given that asbestos were known to be cancerous almost a century before we ban it, I'd say it's just the way we usually do things: use what's convenient until the cost is too high.
  - IshKebab 9y ago
    Asbestos is still manufactured and sold in some countries. Crazy I know.
    - karlkloss 9y ago
      As it's a naturally occuring mineral, you can't avoid it completely. https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/asbestos-found-nevada-and-arizona-roadblock-and-potential-health-hazard https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/asbestos-found-nevada-...
      - forgotmypw 9y ago
        Well then, if it's a naturally occurring mineral, we might as well just spread it around all over the place!
      - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        > As it's a naturally occuring mineral, you can't avoid it completely Isn't that also true of Lead?
        _emacsomancer_ 9y ago
karlkloss 9y ago
The next thing to ban will be microplastics. It seems to be as dangerous as lead, and it'll be much more complicated to avoid.
givan 9y ago
What about mercury (the most potent neurotoxin known to man) and aluminium that are used as adjuvants in certain injectable preventive medical treatment that can't be named because of scientific dogma?
- ikt 9y ago
  https://i.imgur.com/pYA688n.png https://i.imgur.com/pYA688n.png
  - givan 9y ago
    What about a scientific study instead of an ignorant facebook comment? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4091651 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4091651
    - Freak_NL 9y ago
      That article on the toxicity of ethyl- and methylmercury does not appear to have any bearing on the mercury based amalgam alloy used in amalgam fillings (unless they gave the rats amalgam fillings in their teeth). I don't think you are interpreting the scientific article you are referring to correctly.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    You can't compare the biological effects of table salt (sodium chloride) to molecules containing heavy metals. Sodium is an extremely reactive alkali metal and chlorine is an extremely reactive halogen. Because it is strongly ionically bonded, NaCl won't suddenly bond with the organic material of your body. As the body is mostly water, it will be in Na+ and Cl- form, dissolved in water, and thus won't be able to form the dangerous diatomic forms like chlorine gas, Cl2. Mercury on the other hand, is a heavy metal and isn't super reactive. It's not water soluble, it's fat soluble. Chellation therapy will not save a person if their mercury levels are too high from an accident with it. It will sit in the fat of their brain and they'll slowly die while becoming more and more brain damaged. No treatment. But lets talk about mercury-based compounds like Thimerosal. The danger isn't Thimerosal as a substance, it is an effective and safe chemical. But we don't know all the intracacies of the human bodys' chemical pathways. All we know is that most large molecules/substances break down eventually - either via the bodys' enzymes or something else consumed and interacting - or just time. So though we can do tests on the stability of Thimerosal through en vivo studies, with fluorescent tagged molecules, or piss tests on rats, ultimately we don't know what reactants are in everyones' body entirely. And it is unwise to give people something of questionable stability that is composed of toxic parts, dangerous upon decay.
vixen99 9y ago
And eventually there will be general acceptance that shoving a lump of metallic mixture containing 50% mercury, another toxic heavy metal, into a location an inch or so from the brain is not such a good idea. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/ "Exposure to mercury – even small amounts – may cause serious health problems, and is a threat to the development of the child in utero and early in life."
- minitech 9y ago
  Are you talking about fillings? Confusing to link to a generic article about mercury if so.
goldenkey 9y ago
I was actually pondering something related today. I worry about my cats' paws getting glass in them. Because the pavement is full of tiny pieces of glass, even worse if someone breaks a bottle outside, they won't actually vacuum and clean it up, I guess wind can help a bit..but it's just shuffling the glass around. Glass doesn't decay on a human time scale. Which brought me to the grim fact that there are so many substances that do not decay in a reasonable time..that you are pretty much stuck with them in your body if they somehow get there. With glass, at least if you realize early enough, you can yank it out. And some people say that 10 or 20 years after getting glass stuck in them, that it came to the surface of their skin on a random day. Which brings me to thinking about if we'll ever be able to truly know what substances are doing to our bodies in full fidelity. Like, some people believe that food colorings are unhealthy - will there eventually be a time where we have a machine, you stand in it and eat the fruit snacks and we get a full picture of where every molecule of titanium dioxide is headed? ..Imagine, we see a HUD of a human body, and a heatmap, overlaying that 99.95% goes to the kidneys but we see that 0.05% gets stuck in the prefrontal cortex of the brain in a peculiar area. We test more people and see that they also get the deposits in the same area...something we thought was totally harmless turns out to be depositing itself in some arcane area by some arcane mechanism... Yes, I eat fruit snacks and I don't think this is the case...it's just a silly hypothetical situation. And I am aware of fluorescent tagging technology which can do something similar but sometimes poorly, because ultimately it is modifying the original molecule. (Incompleteness sucks doesn't it?) Maybe some day..
- eutectic 9y ago
  At least broken glass doesn't stay sharp for long when exposed to the elements.
  - goldenkey 9y ago
    How sure are you about this? The walk I had barefoot on a street in Brooklyn ended in a multitude of sharp embedded glass and other objects. And this was a clean street..without people dropping bottles on the ground constantly. EDIT: to all those downvoting me, a fucking veteran glassblower says that glass takes forever to erode.. https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-broken-glass-take-to-break-down-in-the-woods https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-broken-glass-take-to-bre...
eadmund 9y ago
> Worryingly, the “precautionary principle” that led to the phase-out, and is enshrined in EU law, is in danger from Brexit. The precautionary principle is not a vademecum — indeed, it can be taken far too far and become an excuse for either unthinking conservatism (banning anything new out of an overabundance of precaution).
- Erlangolem 9y ago
  It can be, but it manifestly isn’t and hasn’t been anytime in recent history. We’re so far from an abuse of it that radical and prolonged changes in society would be required before we had to worry about that particular slippery slope.
  - DenisM 9y ago
    GMO is banned for no reason in EU. Their loss though.
    - Erlangolem 9y ago
      There is a reason, which is mainly a total loss of trust in the companies and institutions which would otherwise allay people’s fears. A lot of people also object to GMO, not for some crystsl-gripping reason, but because they don’t trust companies patenting genes and plants.
- qubex 9y ago
  For professional reasons I am aware of the ongoing controversy regarding titanium dioxide (used in paints and so forth) where an apparently flawed rat study has triggered off major pandemonium at the heart of REACH (EU’s materials risk assessment and management system) and threatens to run my industry aground, all because of the ”precautionary mechanism” and some possibly bad science. I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies process this kind of information.
  - SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
    >I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies process this kind of information. My reaction to “let’s have politicians establish tax schemes to ‘solve’ global warming”. Apparently to the gloom and doomers there is no nuance in the topic at all, odd for the people who claim to be such ardent supporters of science.
phkahler 9y ago
It's interesting that aircraft still use leaded fuel. From what I can tell this is ultimately due to cost concerns.
- verelo 9y ago
  Only in priston engines, and it’s mostly due to the fact that changing the engines, which are currently reliable and in many cases have been for decades, could introduce new issues. It’s a snails pace industry due to safety and reliability concerns for the most part. It’s super annoying because i always want the best new thing to go with a plane, but when you’re in the cockpit, it’s comforting knowing the plane is 8000 hours in and nothing significant has changed since it was initially made (other than what was mandated by the maker) so it’s probay going to be fine for your 1.5 hour flight.
  - verelo 9y ago
    Also, most small airports only carry one fuel, i imagine those making new planes don’t get customers excited about planes you cannot take everywhere due to limited availability of fuels. I love/hate flying for all these reasons.
    - cjrp 9y ago
      Some engines (such as Rotax) can be run on mogas, available at gas stations. Obviously you then need to transport it to the airport yourself, which isn't always convenient.
      - jabl 9y ago
        Doesn't most mogas STC's cover only alcohol-free gas, which AFAIK is increasingly hard to acquire in many places? It seems that longer term, in many places of the world, particularly outside the US, the answer is diesel aero engines, which can run on jet fuel.
      - slavak 9y ago
        Rotax can run on either MoGas or 100LL, so if you're at an airport that doesn't offer MoGas you can just fill up with AvGas and go.
matte_black 9y ago
If you suspect you may be exposed to consistent levels of lead, it is important to take a Spirulina supplement. Spirulina cleans out toxic heavy metals like lead from the body.
- mikosty 9y ago
  Reference for this?
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Fairly common knowledge. In fact, because Spirulina absorbs heavy metals, it’s important to get Spirulina from clean sources as you may be ingesting Spirulina that already has absorbed heavy metals within it. Be careful.
    - driverdan 9y ago
      That is not a source.
    - freehunter 9y ago
      >Fairly common knowledge So complete nonsense then. Got it.
      - matte_black 9y ago
        I don’t know man. It was just something I knew from some time ago and there’s no end of google results that talk about this. Not really sure what other source you’re looking for. A research paper? Even those can be nonsense.
        eric_h 9y ago
        > A research paper? Even those can be nonsense. An absense of research papers is far more frequently evidence of nonsense
DenisM 9y ago
TLDR: 400,000 annual US deaths are attributed to lead poisoning, 10x increases over previous estimates. The difference is due to previous studies excluding low doses of lead, assuming they have no effect. The news here is that any rise of lead is dangerous. The study is observational and looking for correlation, involves 12k people, and controls for all usual factors including wealth. It seems legit to me, given that controls are in place and the mechanism has been well established earlier.
- aoeusnth1 9y ago
  At a valuation of $10MM/life, deaths from lead cost the USA $4 TRILLION per year. Meanwhile, the gross national income is only around $18 trillion/year.
nerdponx 9y ago
Serious question: does this mean I need to start being a lot more careful about lead debris generated by hobbyist soldering?
- jakobegger 9y ago
  Yes? I don't know why people still use leaded solder in the first place? I only use lead free solder for my hobby projects, and it works fine.
  - xyzzy_plugh 9y ago
    Because it's easier. When I started soldering, the lead-free stuff was finnicky but I had nearly no problems with leaded solder. Regardless, you should have good ventilation when soldering. A small fan to suck smoke away, maybe even a mask, and take care to clean your hands and the area like you would any other harmful material (e.g. oil).
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - pault 9y ago
      Does anyone know of any ventilation kits that would work in an apartment that doesn't otherwise get a lot of air circulation? I can't drill holes in the walls for air ducts.
      - mmagin 9y ago
        https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-fa-400-smoke-absorber/hakko-fa400-smoke-absorber.html https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-fa-4... up close plus a HEPA filter in the room, and you're probably doing quite well. Use name-brand filter replacements and not some random crap.
  - jjoonathan 9y ago
    Flows better, cracks less, doesn't grow whiskers. On every dimension other than safety it is by far the superior product. Noticeably so, even with practice and good JBC irons. I recently made the jump to tin, so the difference is fresh in my mind. I have a bench full of uwave equipment from the 80s on account of the price being 1/10 to 1/100 of newer equivalents -- how much of it would still be alive if they had used tin solder? Would my hobby still be economically viable? Quite possibly not.
watertom 9y ago
We still allow Flouride in toothpaste and we actively put it in drinking water, and I believe it’s worse than lead.
- qsucvatz 9y ago
  And chlorine in salt!/s
- CapitalistCartr 9y ago
  Fortunately, science doesn't depend on believing.
- nate_meurer 9y ago
  > worse than lead You're a smart person, easily capable of understanding how false and damaging this nonsense is. For perspective, municipal water is fluoridated at 0.5-1.5 mg/L. Can you guess what would happen to you if your drinking water contained that much soluble lead? Here's a hint: it doesn't involve living very long. Please stop spreading this bullshit.
EGreg 9y ago
Are lead lined walls dangerous? I wanted to have a shed basement with lead lines walls to double as a bunker. How does one actually get lead poisoning except thru contamination of water etc.?
- nitrogen 9y ago
  Touching the lead and then touching your face, food, or others' hands, breathing dust from the lead, etc. Maybe you can achieve your goals with other materials, like soil, rock, cinder block, etc.
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Why would I touch the lead if it's deep in the walls?
lucidguppy 9y ago
It would be interesting how elevated lead levels affected the history of the 20th/21st century. (Not just crime statistics - but effects on elites / world leaders).
hedora 9y ago
Sadly, there is a good chance your daily coffee was contaminated by lead from the espresso machine that made it (even current models do this!): http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1 http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1
- sitharus 9y ago
  Hm, looking at those numbers if you went by the worst possible readings, and assuming 4 espresso coffees a day with the average length of 30ml you'd get 0.042mg/ml * 0.030ml * 4 = 5.04µg of lead According to https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9 https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9 adults absorb 20% on a full stomach and up to 80% empty. So always eat before your espresso! Though a commercial machine running a regular takeaway workload is unlikely to have much lead in due to the volume of water going through it.
- crazygringo 9y ago
  The reported levels are about double the EPA's treatment technique maximum -- and that's for water sitting in the boiler for 8-12 hours. So considering 1) it's 2x, not 10x or 1,000x, 2) a double espresso is only ~60 ml, and if you ingest 3L of water per day it makes up only 2% of your daily liquid, and 3) for most people getting a coffee from a shop, the water will be sitting in the boiler for minutes, not fractions of days... ...it doesn't seem like something to worry about too much for most people?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
iN7h33nD 9y ago
Lead is still used all over the place in he USA. Its very concerning. You have to specifically look for lead free versions. Examples: * "fake" christmas decorations (trees, wreaths) often contain lead * Garden hoses almost always contain lead
- mmagin 9y ago
  A lot of these are vastly less dangerous than the use of tetraethyl lead in gasoline or other forms in which significant quantity can be easily taken up by the body (e.g. the old white lead carbonate paint pigment). While it's reasonable to be extra careful with small children that might put decorations in their mouth, small amounts of lead in vinyl products (or more significant amounts in machined brass products) do not necessarily result in significant dosage in people who handle or use those products.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    Perhaps. From the article "Last week, a massive new study concluded that lead is 10 times more dangerous than thought, and that past exposure now hastens one in every five US deaths."
  - rabboRubble 9y ago
    I drank from garden hoses all the time as a kid :-( Gotta wonder what that did to the brain pan.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Most electrical cords have it in them as well. Believe stuff from IKEA doesn't though as it meets EU standards.
  - fencepost 9y ago
    Look for "RoHS"[1] on labels and electronics. That governs a list of materials, but I suspect the most common is lead. Among other things, this is the origin of significant usage of lead-free solder, which has led to its own set of issues in electronics (brittle joins, tin whiskers, etc). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Sub...
j_shi 9y ago
Lead contamination in school water supplies is a particularly pernicious, under-addressed, and improperly diagnosed problem, happening right here in California - with significant downstream developmental health consequences for children. An SF-based group Measure Water is fighting for a solution to the problem, starting with getting schools to correctly examine their water. I'm friends with the founder and she'd welcome anyone interested in helping to reach out at team@measurewater.org

227 points by Mononokay 9y ago

Hope they don't find out the same things about fluoride.

What is still a safe lead blood value? And is there any merit in "chelation" therapies, as advocated on health websites, like this one, [1]? [1] https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-herbs-can-be-taken-for-chelation/ https://www.livestrong.com/article/199912-what-natural-herbs...

arkades 9y ago
There is not, insofar as lead tends to be either inspired or ingested in contaminated water. For most people, it's the former. The "oral chelators" just bind lead that is mixed in with them, stopping you from absorbing as much of it. That is, Senapati 2001 (the garlic-rat study) didn't give lead acetate in the morning and garlic in the afternoon; they intentionally mixed the two together. That is, oral intake of lead with oral intake of garlic, means maybe you shit out more lead with the garlic chelation agent. But lots of garlic will do nothing for water you drink later in the day, or the air passing into your lungs. There may be some additional anti-oxidant activity. Anti-oxidants are good for you across the board. Have at them. As to a safe blood lead level: depending on your local public health department, 5 mcg/dL will or should prompt public health action. <5mcg will usually prompt a doctor to start trying to figure out where you're exposed, and cut that exposure out. >5mcg turns into a little bit of a grey area depending on where you are, and by 10mcg your kid is getting chelation therapy. These numbers are built around children, not adults, because they're far more susceptible to the adverse effects of lead exposure. That said, we have not identified any safe lead level - every level that has been tested has been shown to be associated with some sort of negative cognitive developmental impact (Lanphear 2000). I feel comfortable saying the safe level is "0", but that's not medical consensus, that's just my opinion.
- wonthegame 9y ago
  Just adding to your comment. Govt regulation for lead workers where I worked was about 1.4 micro mols of lead.
  - 2chen 9y ago
    Which is just an arbitrary number the government came up with because zero is obviously unreasonable for lead workers..
manmal 9y ago
Here is a small list of chelation agents hosted by the WHO: http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/applications/4_2_LeadOralChelators.pdf http://www.who.int/selection_medicines/committees/expert/18/... I guess chelation/elimination does work if the WHO writes about it. AFAIK lead is also stored in bones and probably within body tissues, so this might take a while.
imcoconut 9y ago
There is merit to chelation therapy as a means of eliminating mercury (and other heavy metals including lead) stored in the body, but many protocols, both alternative and conventional, don't consider the full complexities involved and can be more harmful than beneficial. There are a number of relevant factors including length of exposures (acute or chronic poisoning) and form of metal (organic, inorganic, metallic - for mercury at least). By far the best source I found on the topic is Andrew Cutler, a chemistry PhD from Princeton who was mercury poisoned himself and created an effective and safe protocol for removal. He has a strong background in kinetics, pharmacokinetics, and biochemistry in general, and recognized that the standard toxicological protocols for heavy metal treatment were very dangerous (e.g. infrequent high dose IV administrations of DMPS/DMSA) , especially for cases of chronic poisoning. According to Cutler, protocols such as the one you linked are very dangerous as they don't administer the chelating agent according to its metabolic half-life in the body (the half-lives of the chelating agents in cilantro and chlorella are unknown). As a result blood levels of the chelating agent and the metals fluctuate greatly. This can mobilize previously sequestered metals, but not provide the body enough time to properly eliminate them, which results in "re-poisoning" events. And when a large amount fat-loving free metals are released by the chelating agents within a short period of time, they often enter the central nervous system, settle there and exacerbate neurological symptoms. I have no background in chemistry, so that's my summary of what I've read. But I highly recommend his book [1] which focuses mostly on mercury, but he covers lead as well. There are a few interviews with him around the web as well [2]. Also happy to provide more info and sources as I have two of his books and they both cite a wide array of sources. [1] http://www.noamalgam.com/ http://www.noamalgam.com/ [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AQGrh0XMw&t=34s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AQGrh0XMw&t=34s
- amelius 9y ago
  Hi, thanks, I know it's well-intended, but I can't find Cutler's work on PubMed, so I'm still wondering how legitimate this work is.
  - imcoconut 9y ago
    As I understand it, pubmed (and medline) only index a subset of medical research, and excludes most non-medical science research. As Cutler was a chemist, I'm not sure any articles of his would be indexed by pubmed. Scopus, which seems to be run by Elsevier, lists some abstracts and letters here (I have no idea how extensive this is) [1] [1] https://www.scopus.com/authid/detail.uri?authorId=7103370042 https://www.scopus.com/authid/detail.uri?authorId=7103370042

oldandtired 9y ago

Does anyone know of what foods mitigate the accumulation of lead or other heavy metals in the body?

SQL2219 9y ago
cilantro
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
adventured 9y ago
Lipoic acid will remove some heavy metals from your body. It can also cross the blood-brain barrier and remove mercury, one of the few things that can.
- DenisM 9y ago
  Is it folk wisdom? Or are there references to back it up?
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Everything in this thread that supposes to be medical advice is nonsense folk wisdom. If there was a medicine that cured lead poisoning we wouldn't have articles like this one.
oldandtired 9y ago
The reason I asked the question was to see if anyone had had medical advice on the subject. My father was a printer in the days when lead type was used. Over a long period of time he accumulated lead within his body. His doctor advised him to eat beetroot every day. Over a period of several months the amount of lead that had accumulated in his body was reduce to negligible amounts and he never had the problem again. Mind you, he still eats beetroot today and he is in his mid-eighties. He was in his mid-thirties when he started. I was wondering if others had been advised by their doctors on this subject.

Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago

"Looking back, it seems insane. Bluntly put, we took a known poison and – for three quarters of a century – used it in machines that puffed it out in breathable form. Then we drove them millions of miles a day, all over the world, regularly dosing billions of people with the toxin." We are still doing just that, even though we are using milder poisons now.

sametmax 9y ago
Well given that asbestos were known to be cancerous almost a century before we ban it, I'd say it's just the way we usually do things: use what's convenient until the cost is too high.
- IshKebab 9y ago
  Asbestos is still manufactured and sold in some countries. Crazy I know.
  - karlkloss 9y ago
    As it's a naturally occuring mineral, you can't avoid it completely. https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/asbestos-found-nevada-and-arizona-roadblock-and-potential-health-hazard https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/asbestos-found-nevada-...
    - forgotmypw 9y ago
      Well then, if it's a naturally occurring mineral, we might as well just spread it around all over the place!
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > As it's a naturally occuring mineral, you can't avoid it completely Isn't that also true of Lead?
      - _emacsomancer_ 9y ago

karlkloss 9y ago

The next thing to ban will be microplastics. It seems to be as dangerous as lead, and it'll be much more complicated to avoid.

givan 9y ago

What about mercury (the most potent neurotoxin known to man) and aluminium that are used as adjuvants in certain injectable preventive medical treatment that can't be named because of scientific dogma?

ikt 9y ago
https://i.imgur.com/pYA688n.png https://i.imgur.com/pYA688n.png
- givan 9y ago
  What about a scientific study instead of an ignorant facebook comment? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4091651 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4091651
  - Freak_NL 9y ago
    That article on the toxicity of ethyl- and methylmercury does not appear to have any bearing on the mercury based amalgam alloy used in amalgam fillings (unless they gave the rats amalgam fillings in their teeth). I don't think you are interpreting the scientific article you are referring to correctly.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  You can't compare the biological effects of table salt (sodium chloride) to molecules containing heavy metals. Sodium is an extremely reactive alkali metal and chlorine is an extremely reactive halogen. Because it is strongly ionically bonded, NaCl won't suddenly bond with the organic material of your body. As the body is mostly water, it will be in Na+ and Cl- form, dissolved in water, and thus won't be able to form the dangerous diatomic forms like chlorine gas, Cl2. Mercury on the other hand, is a heavy metal and isn't super reactive. It's not water soluble, it's fat soluble. Chellation therapy will not save a person if their mercury levels are too high from an accident with it. It will sit in the fat of their brain and they'll slowly die while becoming more and more brain damaged. No treatment. But lets talk about mercury-based compounds like Thimerosal. The danger isn't Thimerosal as a substance, it is an effective and safe chemical. But we don't know all the intracacies of the human bodys' chemical pathways. All we know is that most large molecules/substances break down eventually - either via the bodys' enzymes or something else consumed and interacting - or just time. So though we can do tests on the stability of Thimerosal through en vivo studies, with fluorescent tagged molecules, or piss tests on rats, ultimately we don't know what reactants are in everyones' body entirely. And it is unwise to give people something of questionable stability that is composed of toxic parts, dangerous upon decay.

vixen99 9y ago

And eventually there will be general acceptance that shoving a lump of metallic mixture containing 50% mercury, another toxic heavy metal, into a location an inch or so from the brain is not such a good idea. http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/ http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs361/en/ "Exposure to mercury – even small amounts – may cause serious health problems, and is a threat to the development of the child in utero and early in life."

minitech 9y ago
Are you talking about fillings? Confusing to link to a generic article about mercury if so.

goldenkey 9y ago

I was actually pondering something related today. I worry about my cats' paws getting glass in them. Because the pavement is full of tiny pieces of glass, even worse if someone breaks a bottle outside, they won't actually vacuum and clean it up, I guess wind can help a bit..but it's just shuffling the glass around. Glass doesn't decay on a human time scale. Which brought me to the grim fact that there are so many substances that do not decay in a reasonable time..that you are pretty much stuck with them in your body if they somehow get there. With glass, at least if you realize early enough, you can yank it out. And some people say that 10 or 20 years after getting glass stuck in them, that it came to the surface of their skin on a random day. Which brings me to thinking about if we'll ever be able to truly know what substances are doing to our bodies in full fidelity. Like, some people believe that food colorings are unhealthy - will there eventually be a time where we have a machine, you stand in it and eat the fruit snacks and we get a full picture of where every molecule of titanium dioxide is headed? ..Imagine, we see a HUD of a human body, and a heatmap, overlaying that 99.95% goes to the kidneys but we see that 0.05% gets stuck in the prefrontal cortex of the brain in a peculiar area. We test more people and see that they also get the deposits in the same area...something we thought was totally harmless turns out to be depositing itself in some arcane area by some arcane mechanism... Yes, I eat fruit snacks and I don't think this is the case...it's just a silly hypothetical situation. And I am aware of fluorescent tagging technology which can do something similar but sometimes poorly, because ultimately it is modifying the original molecule. (Incompleteness sucks doesn't it?) Maybe some day..

eutectic 9y ago
At least broken glass doesn't stay sharp for long when exposed to the elements.
- goldenkey 9y ago
  How sure are you about this? The walk I had barefoot on a street in Brooklyn ended in a multitude of sharp embedded glass and other objects. And this was a clean street..without people dropping bottles on the ground constantly. EDIT: to all those downvoting me, a fucking veteran glassblower says that glass takes forever to erode.. https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-broken-glass-take-to-break-down-in-the-woods https://www.quora.com/How-long-does-broken-glass-take-to-bre...

eadmund 9y ago

> Worryingly, the “precautionary principle” that led to the phase-out, and is enshrined in EU law, is in danger from Brexit. The precautionary principle is not a vademecum — indeed, it can be taken far too far and become an excuse for either unthinking conservatism (banning anything new out of an overabundance of precaution).

Erlangolem 9y ago
It can be, but it manifestly isn’t and hasn’t been anytime in recent history. We’re so far from an abuse of it that radical and prolonged changes in society would be required before we had to worry about that particular slippery slope.
- DenisM 9y ago
  GMO is banned for no reason in EU. Their loss though.
  - Erlangolem 9y ago
    There is a reason, which is mainly a total loss of trust in the companies and institutions which would otherwise allay people’s fears. A lot of people also object to GMO, not for some crystsl-gripping reason, but because they don’t trust companies patenting genes and plants.
qubex 9y ago
For professional reasons I am aware of the ongoing controversy regarding titanium dioxide (used in paints and so forth) where an apparently flawed rat study has triggered off major pandemonium at the heart of REACH (EU’s materials risk assessment and management system) and threatens to run my industry aground, all because of the ”precautionary mechanism” and some possibly bad science. I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies process this kind of information.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y ago
  >I’m not terribly confident about how bureaucracies process this kind of information. My reaction to “let’s have politicians establish tax schemes to ‘solve’ global warming”. Apparently to the gloom and doomers there is no nuance in the topic at all, odd for the people who claim to be such ardent supporters of science.

phkahler 9y ago

It's interesting that aircraft still use leaded fuel. From what I can tell this is ultimately due to cost concerns.

verelo 9y ago
Only in priston engines, and it’s mostly due to the fact that changing the engines, which are currently reliable and in many cases have been for decades, could introduce new issues. It’s a snails pace industry due to safety and reliability concerns for the most part. It’s super annoying because i always want the best new thing to go with a plane, but when you’re in the cockpit, it’s comforting knowing the plane is 8000 hours in and nothing significant has changed since it was initially made (other than what was mandated by the maker) so it’s probay going to be fine for your 1.5 hour flight.
- verelo 9y ago
  Also, most small airports only carry one fuel, i imagine those making new planes don’t get customers excited about planes you cannot take everywhere due to limited availability of fuels. I love/hate flying for all these reasons.
  - cjrp 9y ago
    Some engines (such as Rotax) can be run on mogas, available at gas stations. Obviously you then need to transport it to the airport yourself, which isn't always convenient.
    - jabl 9y ago
      Doesn't most mogas STC's cover only alcohol-free gas, which AFAIK is increasingly hard to acquire in many places? It seems that longer term, in many places of the world, particularly outside the US, the answer is diesel aero engines, which can run on jet fuel.
    - slavak 9y ago
      Rotax can run on either MoGas or 100LL, so if you're at an airport that doesn't offer MoGas you can just fill up with AvGas and go.

matte_black 9y ago

If you suspect you may be exposed to consistent levels of lead, it is important to take a Spirulina supplement. Spirulina cleans out toxic heavy metals like lead from the body.

mikosty 9y ago
Reference for this?
- matte_black 9y ago
  Fairly common knowledge. In fact, because Spirulina absorbs heavy metals, it’s important to get Spirulina from clean sources as you may be ingesting Spirulina that already has absorbed heavy metals within it. Be careful.
  - driverdan 9y ago
    That is not a source.
  - freehunter 9y ago
    >Fairly common knowledge So complete nonsense then. Got it.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      I don’t know man. It was just something I knew from some time ago and there’s no end of google results that talk about this. Not really sure what other source you’re looking for. A research paper? Even those can be nonsense.
      - eric_h 9y ago
        > A research paper? Even those can be nonsense. An absense of research papers is far more frequently evidence of nonsense

DenisM 9y ago

TLDR: 400,000 annual US deaths are attributed to lead poisoning, 10x increases over previous estimates. The difference is due to previous studies excluding low doses of lead, assuming they have no effect. The news here is that any rise of lead is dangerous. The study is observational and looking for correlation, involves 12k people, and controls for all usual factors including wealth. It seems legit to me, given that controls are in place and the mechanism has been well established earlier.

aoeusnth1 9y ago
At a valuation of $10MM/life, deaths from lead cost the USA $4 TRILLION per year. Meanwhile, the gross national income is only around $18 trillion/year.

nerdponx 9y ago

Serious question: does this mean I need to start being a lot more careful about lead debris generated by hobbyist soldering?

jakobegger 9y ago
Yes? I don't know why people still use leaded solder in the first place? I only use lead free solder for my hobby projects, and it works fine.
- xyzzy_plugh 9y ago
  Because it's easier. When I started soldering, the lead-free stuff was finnicky but I had nearly no problems with leaded solder. Regardless, you should have good ventilation when soldering. A small fan to suck smoke away, maybe even a mask, and take care to clean your hands and the area like you would any other harmful material (e.g. oil).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - pault 9y ago
    Does anyone know of any ventilation kits that would work in an apartment that doesn't otherwise get a lot of air circulation? I can't drill holes in the walls for air ducts.
    - mmagin 9y ago
      https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-fa-400-smoke-absorber/hakko-fa400-smoke-absorber.html https://www.hakkousa.com/products/fume-extraction/hakko-fa-4... up close plus a HEPA filter in the room, and you're probably doing quite well. Use name-brand filter replacements and not some random crap.
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  Flows better, cracks less, doesn't grow whiskers. On every dimension other than safety it is by far the superior product. Noticeably so, even with practice and good JBC irons. I recently made the jump to tin, so the difference is fresh in my mind. I have a bench full of uwave equipment from the 80s on account of the price being 1/10 to 1/100 of newer equivalents -- how much of it would still be alive if they had used tin solder? Would my hobby still be economically viable? Quite possibly not.

watertom 9y ago

We still allow Flouride in toothpaste and we actively put it in drinking water, and I believe it’s worse than lead.

qsucvatz 9y ago
And chlorine in salt!/s
CapitalistCartr 9y ago
Fortunately, science doesn't depend on believing.
nate_meurer 9y ago
> worse than lead You're a smart person, easily capable of understanding how false and damaging this nonsense is. For perspective, municipal water is fluoridated at 0.5-1.5 mg/L. Can you guess what would happen to you if your drinking water contained that much soluble lead? Here's a hint: it doesn't involve living very long. Please stop spreading this bullshit.

EGreg 9y ago

Are lead lined walls dangerous? I wanted to have a shed basement with lead lines walls to double as a bunker. How does one actually get lead poisoning except thru contamination of water etc.?

nitrogen 9y ago
Touching the lead and then touching your face, food, or others' hands, breathing dust from the lead, etc. Maybe you can achieve your goals with other materials, like soil, rock, cinder block, etc.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Why would I touch the lead if it's deep in the walls?

lucidguppy 9y ago

It would be interesting how elevated lead levels affected the history of the 20th/21st century. (Not just crime statistics - but effects on elites / world leaders).

hedora 9y ago

Sadly, there is a good chance your daily coffee was contaminated by lead from the espresso machine that made it (even current models do this!): http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1 http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1

sitharus 9y ago
Hm, looking at those numbers if you went by the worst possible readings, and assuming 4 espresso coffees a day with the average length of 30ml you'd get 0.042mg/ml * 0.030ml * 4 = 5.04µg of lead According to https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9 https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=9 adults absorb 20% on a full stomach and up to 80% empty. So always eat before your espresso! Though a commercial machine running a regular takeaway workload is unlikely to have much lead in due to the volume of water going through it.
crazygringo 9y ago
The reported levels are about double the EPA's treatment technique maximum -- and that's for water sitting in the boiler for 8-12 hours. So considering 1) it's 2x, not 10x or 1,000x, 2) a double espresso is only ~60 ml, and if you ingest 3L of water per day it makes up only 2% of your daily liquid, and 3) for most people getting a coffee from a shop, the water will be sitting in the boiler for minutes, not fractions of days... ...it doesn't seem like something to worry about too much for most people?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

iN7h33nD 9y ago

Lead is still used all over the place in he USA. Its very concerning. You have to specifically look for lead free versions. Examples: * "fake" christmas decorations (trees, wreaths) often contain lead * Garden hoses almost always contain lead

mmagin 9y ago
A lot of these are vastly less dangerous than the use of tetraethyl lead in gasoline or other forms in which significant quantity can be easily taken up by the body (e.g. the old white lead carbonate paint pigment). While it's reasonable to be extra careful with small children that might put decorations in their mouth, small amounts of lead in vinyl products (or more significant amounts in machined brass products) do not necessarily result in significant dosage in people who handle or use those products.
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Perhaps. From the article "Last week, a massive new study concluded that lead is 10 times more dangerous than thought, and that past exposure now hastens one in every five US deaths."
- rabboRubble 9y ago
  I drank from garden hoses all the time as a kid :-( Gotta wonder what that did to the brain pan.
mixmastamyk 9y ago
Most electrical cords have it in them as well. Believe stuff from IKEA doesn't though as it meets EU standards.
- fencepost 9y ago
  Look for "RoHS"[1] on labels and electronics. That governs a list of materials, but I suspect the most common is lead. Among other things, this is the origin of significant usage of lead-free solder, which has led to its own set of issues in electronics (brittle joins, tin whiskers, etc). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Sub...

j_shi 9y ago

Lead contamination in school water supplies is a particularly pernicious, under-addressed, and improperly diagnosed problem, happening right here in California - with significant downstream developmental health consequences for children. An SF-based group Measure Water is fighting for a solution to the problem, starting with getting schools to correctly examine their water. I'm friends with the founder and she'd welcome anyone interested in helping to reach out at team@measurewater.org