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I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese governmen

I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any hotel, etc. Let that sink for a bit, before you claim that Google or even NSA can do something similar. I am a Chinese expat, but I don't have a National ID. I have a Chinese passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country. Things will get worse with 'social credit' as another barrier because I won't have a credit history with them. [edit] removed claim that Chinese expat won't be able to fly in China without National ID because some say the viral news is a rumor. Honestly i cannot tell any more.

stuffedBelly 9y ago
I get your sentiment, but being an expat does not automatically put you on the ban list unless you committed crime or previously had beef with the Chinese government.
crankylinuxuser 9y ago
13th Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---------------- Slavery is ALLOWED if guilty of a crime. So go on ahead and keep espousing "rah rah USA". We're still in a slave country.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? My understanding is that work is optional, comes with a very small amount of compensation as incentive, but is otherwise non-compulsory. Is any US State or Federal prison running cotton plantations in Georgia with forced, uncompensated labor?
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.8QMzstFSM https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation...
    - Chaebixi 9y ago
      > https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.8QMzstFSM https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation... Mic.com's business model is to deliberately present things in the most inflammatory way possible to make people outraged and profit from the resulting clicks: https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of-modern-media https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of...: > During these experiments, Mic continued to bait Facebook readers into getting worked up over everything: Mark Zuckerberg’s hoodie, a high school teacher in Oregon who doesn’t believe in rape culture, people with bad opinions on Thought Catalog, people using bad hashtags, and Zazzle.com. “Mic trafficked in outrage culture,” a former staffer who left in 2017 said. “A lot of the videos that we would publish would be like, ‘Here is this racist person doing a racist thing in this nondescript southern city somewhere.’ There wouldn’t be any reporting or story around it, just, ‘Look at this person being racist, wow what a terrible racist.’” Mic had already exhausted its outrage vocabulary by the time Trump’s election supercharged civil rights violations.
    - mieseratte 9y ago
      To save the curious reader some Googling since the article doesn't seem to explain beyond "forced labor", one can be compelled to work under threat of solitary confinement at Angola so long as they are deemed medically able. Not quite full-on Chattel Slavery, it still is compensated and there is an "out," but that does seem borderline.
      - m_mueller 9y ago
        borderline? what more than psychological torture do they have to do to be over the line?
- mjevans 9y ago
  If someone is found guilty and is given "community service" of a given specification as their retribution to society, is that not technically slavery (involuntary servitude)?
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    Slavery and involuntary servitude aren't the same thing. This is clearly shown by the fact that the state can't sell your person as chattel to someone else when you're sentenced to prison or community service.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    People can select an institution to do community service. Call in sick. Opt to change their mind and do said service at a different place. Although they owe x number of hours of service their labor is their own and cannot be sold by a third party nor are they held against their will.
- Dan_Nguyen 9y ago
  I don't understand the point you're trying to make. eddieplan9 didn't claim that the US is a flawless, perfect nation. They're saying that despite the issues with the US (and I do agree that there are a lot), drawing conclusions between the US and China is a false equivalency and that things in China re: social freedom is much worse than here. Pointing out flaws with the US doesn't take away from his point.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    > They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any hotel, etc. --versus-- Real unabashed slavery on a finding of guilty. And companies can cut off your access to: planes, trains, internet, banking, telephones, ability to stay at any hotel. And the government can put you on a list stopping you from: planes, trains, drivers license, travel document, banking... ------------------------------ That's a fair comparison to make. And there is a good comparison to be made. Both are nation states. Social freedom is less in China for its citizens, but it's not the abject horrible pit of despair made out to be.
- austinshea 9y ago
  This isn't addressing what was said. You posted this in response to someone else's comment, and made clear that you are trying to argue with something else. You were arguing with "rah rah USA," and that just ain't what was said. Come on, brother, let's grow up for the sake of us all.
  - Sangermaine 9y ago
    The comment you're referring to is exactly what the parent was talking about. The usual pattern is something along the lines of: "[OTHER COUNTRY] is doing something bad." "WHAT ABOUT AMERICA?!" "It's not equivalent." "Oh, so America is perfect, then?"
ur_all_autistic 9y ago
Agreed. Many people in the West are sheltered and have been persuaded that we are worse than we are. It's somewhat alarming to see people pushing "The New Jim Crow" as a way to defend China. This is classic whataboutism/false equivalency, even before considering that the book plays funny games with statistics.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it seems like these days it isn't necessary to turn in your hukou, but it was in the 90s). A previous colleague at MSRA was in this boat. It was troublesome for sure, but he could fly (even a Chinese can fly internally with a passport, as my wife did when we went from BJ to GZ), open bank accounts (like foreigners can), and so on. The only thing I know he had trouble with was permission to visit Taiwan, they couldn't handle a Chinese citizen without hukou, but that was it. I'm as critical of the Chinese government as anyone, but bad information really doesn't help.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  > This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country Do you have a cite for this? I know you lose PRC citizenship when gaining another citizenship (and thus a foreign passport), but I was not under the impression that was true for "permanent residents" of other countries. You can be an Chinese expat while still being a Chinese citizen. Also, Chinese National IDs cannot be renewed overseas, while passports can. I think the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport (though they can jump through hoops to get a temporary national ID to fly). I know people who were in a bit of a pickle when this law came into effect because they were overseas when their National ID expired. It's certainly another hassle and bother for expats.
  - xfs 9y ago
    > the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport This is false. There were rumors in May 2017 that some airports in China started to reject passports for Chinese citizens per some new internal regulations, so that is probably what was initially reported. As is always, the follow-up was never reported again: top aviation administration and public security department later clarified the law still allows using passports. The real reason for the few occasions of passport bans was because those few airports didn't have networked passports readers to verify it.
sneak 9y ago
If the US Treasury lists you on the OFAC SDN list, it becomes illegal for most of the vendors of those services to do business with you.
meri_dian 9y ago
It's fashionable among certain segments of the population to bash America whenever they can. It's almost pathological. Any time something negative is mentioned about something happening outside the US, there is an inevitable deluge of "well yeah but really bad stuff happens in America too!" comments. I feel that most people doing this subconsciously feel like they're acting as a counterweight to the ultra patriotism of other segments of the population, but in acting as such a counterweight they appear as absurd as their ideological opponents. Both sides annoy me for the same reason: they are blind to reality.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- glenstein 9y ago
  To your point, this exact thing happened in the last major thread on China, where commenters were defending the Tiananmen Square massacre: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993956
_emacsomancer_ 9y ago
> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. But I worry the West will be watching this closely to see how they might implement something similar.
- hannasanarion 9y ago
  How could they? Americans are too paranoid to allow an ID card, much less a centrally tracked loyalty-points number to use at party-owned shopping, transit, utility, housing....
  - nielsbot 9y ago
    Are we not getting a national ID card soon? (State drivers' licenses that meet certain requirements.)
    - rhcom2 9y ago
      You're thinking of the REAL ID. It's controversial if it counts as "national ID" or not but it's mostly linking state databases and settings a standard for security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
  - _emacsomancer_ 9y ago
    In the US there are mandatory Social Security numbers; one needs photo ID to do much of anything; and there certainly are credit scores.
    - hueving 9y ago
      The large population of undocumented immigrants begs to differ.
      - DoreenMichele 9y ago
        And homeless people who have lost IDs etc yet fail to promptly die and find ways to even get online.
Chaebixi 9y ago
> I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. It's terrible, it's even happening directly in the replies do you. This whole post has been almost totally derailed by whataboutism, and a lot of it is literally textbook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism > The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national ideology". Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to criticism, ["]And you are lynching Negroes,["] as a "classic" example of the tactic. Writing for Bloomberg News, Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition", while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences". Jill Dougherty called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic", and compared it to the pot calling the kettle black.
- sosilkj 9y ago
  False equivalency is a tool that's deployed often on HN these days to steer (or derail) threads. I assume it's due in part to PR/propaganda teams working to manage/manipulate sentiment.
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    It certainly feels like that, but I doubt this is the direct result of modern propaganda teams. What I think is more likely is the propagandists were so successful decades ago that their whataboutist memes got so integrated into the American/English discourse that many people repeat them unthinkingly.
    - walterbell 9y ago
      Take a look at Grassroots for Hire, https://www.amazon.com/Grassroots-Hire-Consultants-American-Democracy/dp/1107619017 https://www.amazon.com/Grassroots-Hire-Consultants-American-...
    - Bizarro 9y ago
      Whether they are "hired guns" or not, there are usual suspects that invariably whataboutism on these stories. Anybody can figure out who they are on their own.
eanzenberg 9y ago
It's been fashionable for a while to bash the top dog. No, the US isn't perfect, but how can you equate it to the shit china does day in and out.
- newnewpdro 9y ago
  It will be interesting to see what the US resembles when its numbers exceed 1 billion people. China in many ways is simply setting the precedent now, how the US follows remains to be seen.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade99c79d239fce0612d99/8bd8c/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/world-population-by-level-of-fertility-without-projections-768x538.png https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9... https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/ https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-... https://vimeo.com/79878808 https://vimeo.com/79878808
    - newnewpdro 9y ago
      It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - selectodude 9y ago
        Toys R Us just said yesterday that one of the major causes of their bankruptcy was a decline in birth rates.
refurb 9y ago
Welcome to HN where hyperbole is the order of the day.
- avs733 9y ago
  One could argue that this is hyperbole.
CitizenKane 9y ago
For what it's worth I doubt many of those commented have ever lived (or even visited) China. It's easy to create a false equivalency when you have no real experience of the situation. This is a different situation, and it's sadly Orwellian.
- refurb 9y ago
  I think this is an important point. I had a coworker who grew up in Romania under Ceausescu and the stories he told! He talked about neighbors just disappearing one day and someone new living in the home. People didn't bat an eye since if you started asking questions, you might be next. He mentioned how there was an election for president and it was a write in ballot. Someone wrote "Mickey Mouse". Despite voting in a booth in private, they figured out who he was and he had to report for "reeducation" every weekend. This involved sitting in the police station watching propaganda all day Saturday and Sunday. I don't think people in the West can even fathom what it's like to live under an authoritarian system like that.
  - photonios 9y ago
    I can second this. I moved from western Europe to Romania. I've been here for more than two years now and I've heard some pretty insane stories. Most of the people I know are young and were children or teenagers towards the end of communism, but their parents lived through it all.
stcredzero 9y ago
Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. Thank goodness. However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. The difference is primarily that in the west, the people who would do this, don't yet have 100% coverage over society.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  >However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.
  - zsck 9y ago
    I'd argue that's not entirely true. Consider, for example, the fact that corporate prisons exist in America. I would say there is a difference in governance, but I hesitate to speculate about cultural differences.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot of people who will wield institutional power to engage in censorship. There are entire academic fields where professors and researchers are fearful of discussing their findings in the mainstream, because they can be castigated for doing so. There are large numbers of people who will use physical violence as a means of political coercion, and there are many, many people who will give their tacit approval of this. A lot of people in the West find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. A lot of people in the West find satisfaction in exercising repugnant authoritarianism.
bamboozled 9y ago
Not an excuse at all. I believe the negative sentiment towards the NSA, Facebook, Amazon and Google have to do with the fact that activities like collecting and storing sensitive information on individuals brings Western society one step closer to the situation in China. The capability now exists and a historic record about an individuals behaviour can be summoned easily. What scares me is the idea of laws you're breaking which don't even exist yet, scary stuff.
IIAOPSW 9y ago
You're right I hold the US government to a higher standard. When I or many others say "China's doing this but look what the NSA is doing", I am not trying to be a CPC apologist by pointing at the NSA. I am being pro civil liberties by using the CPC as an example of what happens when you don't hold your government to account. America gets to enjoy its relatively high degree of civil liberties precisely because its population is so often critical of and suspicious of its government. Even when the criticism is laughable in comparison to other countries.
- jryle70 9y ago
  I have no problems with criticizing US government agencies for shady or illegal things they did, but there are plenty of posts about those topics already. Doing so in a Chinese related thread comes across as whataboutism, especially because whatever good intention you may have, it is indistinguishable from those that attempt to direct the discussion away from China's issues.
  - meric 9y ago
    Refusing to engage in whataboutism makes you vulnerable to propaganda from your own country - it allows your government to redirect negative attention towards it's own behaviour to other countries by influencing media organisations to publish certain articles. Of course, some people inevitably says "what about our own government", and this behaviour can be countered by labelling it as "whataboutism".
emodendroket 9y ago
Yes, but my concern, personally, is that we're just getting a sneak-preview of a system that will eventually end up implemented here. We don't have a social credit system, but we do have a do-not-fly list and, if you get put on it, you don't have any way of finding out why. Your "regular" credit score can shut you out of not just loans but jobs, apartments, and other basic services. How much of a leap is it, really?
mirimir 9y ago
> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. That is indeed true. But then, cultures of China and the West are very different. Judging either by the standards of the other is bound to be contentious. Also, there's arguably some observer bias in the West's pride. Changes in the US after 9/11 were dramatic! What if radical Islamic fundamentalists had done a better job? More waves of attacks, soon after the first?
- woolvalley 9y ago
  This person is a chinese expat, with a chinese passport. I think he knows the difference. And you only have to look to the rest of asia to see in this case, it's not a difference of 'culture'.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    I'm not disagreeing that there's a difference. I'm saying that it'd be odd if there weren't a difference. Also, it's not useful to lump China with Asia overall.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      China is, historically speaking, the most influential country in East and Southeast Asia, as evidenced by the fact that Korea, Japan, and Vietnam all use or used a script derived from Chinese characters and that there is a large Chinese diaspora in even more countries in the region. On what basis would we consider China an outlier? Just the post-war era? Despite ambitions to do so the CCP did not exactly sweep away Chinese culture as it existed prior to the ascendance of Mao.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        I'm not sure why we're arguing. China clearly is different from the West. And so are other Asian nations. Not as different as China is, however. Maybe more or less proportionally vs relative cultural influence from China and the West.
dheera 9y ago
> but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country Side point but generally speaking you don't need a national ID to open a bank account or buy train tickets online. Banks do require a +86 mobile number, which you can get with your passport alone. You can then use your +86 mobile number, passport, and hotel address to open a bank account. You can then add your bank account to WeChat and buy train tickets there. You will have to line up to pick up your electronically-purchased tickets as paper tickets, using your confirmation code on WeChat and your passport, which is a huge inconvenience compared to those swiping their national IDs to get into the trains (they built the entire train system basically only for locals), but there are separate lines for ticket pickup that move quickly, so it's not as annoying as getting in line to buy tickets and the finding out that seats are sold out. At least your WeChat purchase guarantees you your journey and seat. You can also use Alipay instead of WeChat if you prefer. That said I'm not sure if there are additional restrictions on Chinese passports, but a non-Chinese passport can use the above procedure. Of course it's a massive pain in the ass because of all the stupid SMS confirmations and things involved in the process. Easily the worst UI/UX I've seen of a ticketing system. The trains themselves are fantastic though. Also, yes, everything is tracked to your passport number, so even if you have no national ID you do still become part of the same "credit" system.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Until your passport number changes on renewal. My bank and job freaked out when I renewed my passport, and it became common for them to ask for my old passport also when needing to do anything official.
williw 9y ago
You can indeed open a bank account in China with Chinese passport or even with a foreign passport. There are lots of limitations without the National ID, but do not spread false information if you are not well informed.
cnprthrowaway 9y ago
I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China. A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead. You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland. Is China running some indirect social public relations in the style of Russian Facebook ads for Trump? Or is it simply China hawks / nationalists or other casual supporters? My personal conclusion is that there's a decent chance it's a bit of both. And the likelihood of the first may be concerning. But seriously, check out the pattern and come to your own conclusion. P.S. If it matters, I'm ethnically Chinese as well, and think well of the Chinese people in general.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- foodislove 9y ago
  The fact that you think you need to create a throwaway account speaks to how much the climate has changed for us. There is a real fear considering how totalitarian and intrusive the government has become, that they will target anyone who disagrees even on a benign forum like this. I'm sure one of the many pro-china robots will cite something liek "THE NSA IS JUST AS BAD" but the reality is China is 1000000 times worse. Just mention how Taiwan is in reality an independent country and they go full retard.
  - cnprthrowaway 9y ago
    Absolutely. Many years ago, a family friend hosted a blog on his home server that had an anti-CPC article. A few weeks after the publication of that article, he found his router flashed and the blog content defaced. I'm a normal person with a normal life, hence the throwaway to reduce even the small chance of getting hit back, something that China seems to like to do (not coincidentally the exact topic of the original link). I'm not into conspiracy theories, but we know what Russia has likely already done on social media. China is just as clever and resourceful, if not more, and they want to save face. This makes indirect social media influence a temptation that is difficult for the CPC to resist at best.
StreamBright 9y ago
Could you share the source for these claims? I could not find anything that backs what you are saying. https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Chinese-economy-is-state-owned https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Chinese-economy...
schuke 9y ago
You forgot to mention they can use facial recognition to ID and publicize pedestrians who don't wait for green light. The sheer amount of resource and power they can wield against an individual citizen is unparalleled in the entire human history. The only thing stopping them from utilizing it is only its own bureaucratic inefficiency.
tomrod 9y ago
Fair: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-05/24/content_29469625.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-05/24/content_294696... It looks like their is a lot of miscommunication on the issue. Having seen authoritarian regimes behave on a smaller scale, I would not be terribly surprised if the miscommunication was intentional to see how the desired (very negative) policy was received, before backing down with a retraction to something less onerous.
superflb 9y ago
> I have a Chinese passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online you can. Just select passport and fill the passport number. I did it multiple times.

stuffedBelly 9y ago

I get your sentiment, but being an expat does not automatically put you on the ban list unless you committed crime or previously had beef with the Chinese government.

crankylinuxuser 9y ago

13th Amendment: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. ---------------- Slavery is ALLOWED if guilty of a crime. So go on ahead and keep espousing "rah rah USA". We're still in a slave country.

mieseratte 9y ago
Does the United States actually practice slavery in the prison system in any fashion? My understanding is that work is optional, comes with a very small amount of compensation as incentive, but is otherwise non-compulsory. Is any US State or Federal prison running cotton plantations in Georgia with forced, uncompensated labor?
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.8QMzstFSM https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation...
  - Chaebixi 9y ago
    > https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation-exists-and-it-s-thriving-in-the-heart-of-america#.8QMzstFSM https://mic.com/articles/88461/a-modern-day-slave-plantation... Mic.com's business model is to deliberately present things in the most inflammatory way possible to make people outraged and profit from the resulting clicks: https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of-modern-media https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of...: > During these experiments, Mic continued to bait Facebook readers into getting worked up over everything: Mark Zuckerberg’s hoodie, a high school teacher in Oregon who doesn’t believe in rape culture, people with bad opinions on Thought Catalog, people using bad hashtags, and Zazzle.com. “Mic trafficked in outrage culture,” a former staffer who left in 2017 said. “A lot of the videos that we would publish would be like, ‘Here is this racist person doing a racist thing in this nondescript southern city somewhere.’ There wouldn’t be any reporting or story around it, just, ‘Look at this person being racist, wow what a terrible racist.’” Mic had already exhausted its outrage vocabulary by the time Trump’s election supercharged civil rights violations.
  - mieseratte 9y ago
    To save the curious reader some Googling since the article doesn't seem to explain beyond "forced labor", one can be compelled to work under threat of solitary confinement at Angola so long as they are deemed medically able. Not quite full-on Chattel Slavery, it still is compensated and there is an "out," but that does seem borderline.
    - m_mueller 9y ago
      borderline? what more than psychological torture do they have to do to be over the line?
mjevans 9y ago
If someone is found guilty and is given "community service" of a given specification as their retribution to society, is that not technically slavery (involuntary servitude)?
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  Slavery and involuntary servitude aren't the same thing. This is clearly shown by the fact that the state can't sell your person as chattel to someone else when you're sentenced to prison or community service.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  People can select an institution to do community service. Call in sick. Opt to change their mind and do said service at a different place. Although they owe x number of hours of service their labor is their own and cannot be sold by a third party nor are they held against their will.
Dan_Nguyen 9y ago
I don't understand the point you're trying to make. eddieplan9 didn't claim that the US is a flawless, perfect nation. They're saying that despite the issues with the US (and I do agree that there are a lot), drawing conclusions between the US and China is a false equivalency and that things in China re: social freedom is much worse than here. Pointing out flaws with the US doesn't take away from his point.
- crankylinuxuser 9y ago
  > They can not only cut your off completely from planes and trains, but also your electricity, driver license, internet, telephone, banks, ability to get any travel document, ability to stay at any hotel, etc. --versus-- Real unabashed slavery on a finding of guilty. And companies can cut off your access to: planes, trains, internet, banking, telephones, ability to stay at any hotel. And the government can put you on a list stopping you from: planes, trains, drivers license, travel document, banking... ------------------------------ That's a fair comparison to make. And there is a good comparison to be made. Both are nation states. Social freedom is less in China for its citizens, but it's not the abject horrible pit of despair made out to be.
austinshea 9y ago
This isn't addressing what was said. You posted this in response to someone else's comment, and made clear that you are trying to argue with something else. You were arguing with "rah rah USA," and that just ain't what was said. Come on, brother, let's grow up for the sake of us all.
- Sangermaine 9y ago
  The comment you're referring to is exactly what the parent was talking about. The usual pattern is something along the lines of: "[OTHER COUNTRY] is doing something bad." "WHAT ABOUT AMERICA?!" "It's not equivalent." "Oh, so America is perfect, then?"

ur_all_autistic 9y ago

Agreed. Many people in the West are sheltered and have been persuaded that we are worse than we are. It's somewhat alarming to see people pushing "The New Jim Crow" as a way to defend China. This is classic whataboutism/false equivalency, even before considering that the book plays funny games with statistics.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> I am a Chinese expat, and thanks to this policy, I cannot fly in China because I don't have a National ID. A Chinese passport won't do. This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country, and use their passport internally (when returning to work in China) like us foreigners must (it seems like these days it isn't necessary to turn in your hukou, but it was in the 90s). A previous colleague at MSRA was in this boat. It was troublesome for sure, but he could fly (even a Chinese can fly internally with a passport, as my wife did when we went from BJ to GZ), open bank accounts (like foreigners can), and so on. The only thing I know he had trouble with was permission to visit Taiwan, they couldn't handle a Chinese citizen without hukou, but that was it. I'm as critical of the Chinese government as anyone, but bad information really doesn't help.

Chaebixi 9y ago
> This is patently not true. There are plenty of Chinese in the previous generation that gave up their hukou/ID card as required when they gained permanent residency in another country Do you have a cite for this? I know you lose PRC citizenship when gaining another citizenship (and thus a foreign passport), but I was not under the impression that was true for "permanent residents" of other countries. You can be an Chinese expat while still being a Chinese citizen. Also, Chinese National IDs cannot be renewed overseas, while passports can. I think the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport (though they can jump through hoops to get a temporary national ID to fly). I know people who were in a bit of a pickle when this law came into effect because they were overseas when their National ID expired. It's certainly another hassle and bother for expats.
- xfs 9y ago
  > the law was pretty explicit that Chinese citizens can't fly under their passport This is false. There were rumors in May 2017 that some airports in China started to reject passports for Chinese citizens per some new internal regulations, so that is probably what was initially reported. As is always, the follow-up was never reported again: top aviation administration and public security department later clarified the law still allows using passports. The real reason for the few occasions of passport bans was because those few airports didn't have networked passports readers to verify it.

sneak 9y ago

If the US Treasury lists you on the OFAC SDN list, it becomes illegal for most of the vendors of those services to do business with you.

meri_dian 9y ago

It's fashionable among certain segments of the population to bash America whenever they can. It's almost pathological. Any time something negative is mentioned about something happening outside the US, there is an inevitable deluge of "well yeah but really bad stuff happens in America too!" comments. I feel that most people doing this subconsciously feel like they're acting as a counterweight to the ultra patriotism of other segments of the population, but in acting as such a counterweight they appear as absurd as their ideological opponents. Both sides annoy me for the same reason: they are blind to reality.

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glenstein 9y ago
To your point, this exact thing happened in the last major thread on China, where commenters were defending the Tiananmen Square massacre: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15993956

_emacsomancer_ 9y ago

> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. But I worry the West will be watching this closely to see how they might implement something similar.

hannasanarion 9y ago
How could they? Americans are too paranoid to allow an ID card, much less a centrally tracked loyalty-points number to use at party-owned shopping, transit, utility, housing....
- nielsbot 9y ago
  Are we not getting a national ID card soon? (State drivers' licenses that meet certain requirements.)
  - rhcom2 9y ago
    You're thinking of the REAL ID. It's controversial if it counts as "national ID" or not but it's mostly linking state databases and settings a standard for security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act
- _emacsomancer_ 9y ago
  In the US there are mandatory Social Security numbers; one needs photo ID to do much of anything; and there certainly are credit scores.
  - hueving 9y ago
    The large population of undocumented immigrants begs to differ.
    - DoreenMichele 9y ago
      And homeless people who have lost IDs etc yet fail to promptly die and find ways to even get online.

Chaebixi 9y ago

> I am deeply disgusted by false equivalency used in many posts this thread. Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. It's terrible, it's even happening directly in the replies do you. This whole post has been almost totally derailed by whataboutism, and a lot of it is literally textbook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism > The Guardian deemed whataboutism, as used in Russia, "practically a national ideology". Journalist Julia Ioffe wrote that "Anyone who has ever studied the Soviet Union" was aware of the technique, citing the Soviet rejoinder to criticism, ["]And you are lynching Negroes,["] as a "classic" example of the tactic. Writing for Bloomberg News, Leonid Bershidsky called whataboutism a "Russian tradition", while The New Yorker described the technique as "a strategy of false moral equivalences". Jill Dougherty called whataboutism a "sacred Russian tactic", and compared it to the pot calling the kettle black.

sosilkj 9y ago
False equivalency is a tool that's deployed often on HN these days to steer (or derail) threads. I assume it's due in part to PR/propaganda teams working to manage/manipulate sentiment.
- Chaebixi 9y ago
  It certainly feels like that, but I doubt this is the direct result of modern propaganda teams. What I think is more likely is the propagandists were so successful decades ago that their whataboutist memes got so integrated into the American/English discourse that many people repeat them unthinkingly.
  - walterbell 9y ago
    Take a look at Grassroots for Hire, https://www.amazon.com/Grassroots-Hire-Consultants-American-Democracy/dp/1107619017 https://www.amazon.com/Grassroots-Hire-Consultants-American-...
  - Bizarro 9y ago
    Whether they are "hired guns" or not, there are usual suspects that invariably whataboutism on these stories. Anybody can figure out who they are on their own.

eanzenberg 9y ago

It's been fashionable for a while to bash the top dog. No, the US isn't perfect, but how can you equate it to the shit china does day in and out.

newnewpdro 9y ago
It will be interesting to see what the US resembles when its numbers exceed 1 billion people. China in many ways is simply setting the precedent now, how the US follows remains to be seen.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  US exceeding a billion people? All countries except some in Africa are on a population decline long term. https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade99c79d239fce0612d99/8bd8c/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/world-population-by-level-of-fertility-without-projections-768x538.png https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/2c9342e9aa17d2237eade9... https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-population/ https://www.gapminder.org/videos/dont-panic-the-facts-about-... https://vimeo.com/79878808 https://vimeo.com/79878808
  - newnewpdro 9y ago
    It'd be great if these optimistic projections are what happens, but today's american culture and economy is still very growth centric - I don't see it happening.
    - deleted 9y ago
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    - selectodude 9y ago
      Toys R Us just said yesterday that one of the major causes of their bankruptcy was a decline in birth rates.

refurb 9y ago

Welcome to HN where hyperbole is the order of the day.

avs733 9y ago
One could argue that this is hyperbole.

CitizenKane 9y ago

For what it's worth I doubt many of those commented have ever lived (or even visited) China. It's easy to create a false equivalency when you have no real experience of the situation. This is a different situation, and it's sadly Orwellian.

refurb 9y ago
I think this is an important point. I had a coworker who grew up in Romania under Ceausescu and the stories he told! He talked about neighbors just disappearing one day and someone new living in the home. People didn't bat an eye since if you started asking questions, you might be next. He mentioned how there was an election for president and it was a write in ballot. Someone wrote "Mickey Mouse". Despite voting in a booth in private, they figured out who he was and he had to report for "reeducation" every weekend. This involved sitting in the police station watching propaganda all day Saturday and Sunday. I don't think people in the West can even fathom what it's like to live under an authoritarian system like that.
- photonios 9y ago
  I can second this. I moved from western Europe to Romania. I've been here for more than two years now and I've heard some pretty insane stories. Most of the people I know are young and were children or teenagers towards the end of communism, but their parents lived through it all.

stcredzero 9y ago

Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. The Chinese government owns and runs more than 50% of the economy and 100% of the industries they deem essential. Thank goodness. However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. The difference is primarily that in the west, the people who would do this, don't yet have 100% coverage over society.

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Sangermaine 9y ago
>However, what you're pointing out is that the difference is not because the principles are different. Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. This is exactly the kind of false equivalency the parent is talking about.
- zsck 9y ago
  I'd argue that's not entirely true. Consider, for example, the fact that corporate prisons exist in America. I would say there is a difference in governance, but I hesitate to speculate about cultural differences.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Yes, they are. The reason "the people who would do this don't yet have 100% coverage over society" is precisely because, at least for now, principles in the West find this sort of authoritarianism repugnant. I'd agree that there are a lot of people who find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. Then, you have lots of people who work at various tech companies who basically engage in censorship. There are also a lot of people who will wield institutional power to engage in censorship. There are entire academic fields where professors and researchers are fearful of discussing their findings in the mainstream, because they can be castigated for doing so. There are large numbers of people who will use physical violence as a means of political coercion, and there are many, many people who will give their tacit approval of this. A lot of people in the West find that kind of authoritarianism repugnant. A lot of people in the West find satisfaction in exercising repugnant authoritarianism.

bamboozled 9y ago

Not an excuse at all. I believe the negative sentiment towards the NSA, Facebook, Amazon and Google have to do with the fact that activities like collecting and storing sensitive information on individuals brings Western society one step closer to the situation in China. The capability now exists and a historic record about an individuals behaviour can be summoned easily. What scares me is the idea of laws you're breaking which don't even exist yet, scary stuff.

IIAOPSW 9y ago

You're right I hold the US government to a higher standard. When I or many others say "China's doing this but look what the NSA is doing", I am not trying to be a CPC apologist by pointing at the NSA. I am being pro civil liberties by using the CPC as an example of what happens when you don't hold your government to account. America gets to enjoy its relatively high degree of civil liberties precisely because its population is so often critical of and suspicious of its government. Even when the criticism is laughable in comparison to other countries.

jryle70 9y ago
I have no problems with criticizing US government agencies for shady or illegal things they did, but there are plenty of posts about those topics already. Doing so in a Chinese related thread comes across as whataboutism, especially because whatever good intention you may have, it is indistinguishable from those that attempt to direct the discussion away from China's issues.
- meric 9y ago
  Refusing to engage in whataboutism makes you vulnerable to propaganda from your own country - it allows your government to redirect negative attention towards it's own behaviour to other countries by influencing media organisations to publish certain articles. Of course, some people inevitably says "what about our own government", and this behaviour can be countered by labelling it as "whataboutism".

emodendroket 9y ago

Yes, but my concern, personally, is that we're just getting a sneak-preview of a system that will eventually end up implemented here. We don't have a social credit system, but we do have a do-not-fly list and, if you get put on it, you don't have any way of finding out why. Your "regular" credit score can shut you out of not just loans but jobs, apartments, and other basic services. How much of a leap is it, really?

mirimir 9y ago

> Whatever you think the West is doing is not even close to this. That is indeed true. But then, cultures of China and the West are very different. Judging either by the standards of the other is bound to be contentious. Also, there's arguably some observer bias in the West's pride. Changes in the US after 9/11 were dramatic! What if radical Islamic fundamentalists had done a better job? More waves of attacks, soon after the first?

woolvalley 9y ago
This person is a chinese expat, with a chinese passport. I think he knows the difference. And you only have to look to the rest of asia to see in this case, it's not a difference of 'culture'.
- mirimir 9y ago
  I'm not disagreeing that there's a difference. I'm saying that it'd be odd if there weren't a difference. Also, it's not useful to lump China with Asia overall.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    China is, historically speaking, the most influential country in East and Southeast Asia, as evidenced by the fact that Korea, Japan, and Vietnam all use or used a script derived from Chinese characters and that there is a large Chinese diaspora in even more countries in the region. On what basis would we consider China an outlier? Just the post-war era? Despite ambitions to do so the CCP did not exactly sweep away Chinese culture as it existed prior to the ascendance of Mao.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      I'm not sure why we're arguing. China clearly is different from the West. And so are other Asian nations. Not as different as China is, however. Maybe more or less proportionally vs relative cultural influence from China and the West.

dheera 9y ago

> but I cannot even buy train tickets online (yet i can ride the train) with it and I cannot open a bank account in my own country Side point but generally speaking you don't need a national ID to open a bank account or buy train tickets online. Banks do require a +86 mobile number, which you can get with your passport alone. You can then use your +86 mobile number, passport, and hotel address to open a bank account. You can then add your bank account to WeChat and buy train tickets there. You will have to line up to pick up your electronically-purchased tickets as paper tickets, using your confirmation code on WeChat and your passport, which is a huge inconvenience compared to those swiping their national IDs to get into the trains (they built the entire train system basically only for locals), but there are separate lines for ticket pickup that move quickly, so it's not as annoying as getting in line to buy tickets and the finding out that seats are sold out. At least your WeChat purchase guarantees you your journey and seat. You can also use Alipay instead of WeChat if you prefer. That said I'm not sure if there are additional restrictions on Chinese passports, but a non-Chinese passport can use the above procedure. Of course it's a massive pain in the ass because of all the stupid SMS confirmations and things involved in the process. Easily the worst UI/UX I've seen of a ticketing system. The trains themselves are fantastic though. Also, yes, everything is tracked to your passport number, so even if you have no national ID you do still become part of the same "credit" system.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Until your passport number changes on renewal. My bank and job freaked out when I renewed my passport, and it became common for them to ask for my old passport also when needing to do anything official.

williw 9y ago

You can indeed open a bank account in China with Chinese passport or even with a foreign passport. There are lots of limitations without the National ID, but do not spread false information if you are not well informed.

cnprthrowaway 9y ago

I've browsed this site for years now, and I do see this pattern in many posts that critique China. A large number of replies turn the conversation towards how the West is equally bad or worse. Another set of replies talks about how China may inevitably come out ahead. You can check yourself by Googling 10 HN threads that critique China, versus say, Japan or Poland. Is China running some indirect social public relations in the style of Russian Facebook ads for Trump? Or is it simply China hawks / nationalists or other casual supporters? My personal conclusion is that there's a decent chance it's a bit of both. And the likelihood of the first may be concerning. But seriously, check out the pattern and come to your own conclusion. P.S. If it matters, I'm ethnically Chinese as well, and think well of the Chinese people in general.

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foodislove 9y ago
The fact that you think you need to create a throwaway account speaks to how much the climate has changed for us. There is a real fear considering how totalitarian and intrusive the government has become, that they will target anyone who disagrees even on a benign forum like this. I'm sure one of the many pro-china robots will cite something liek "THE NSA IS JUST AS BAD" but the reality is China is 1000000 times worse. Just mention how Taiwan is in reality an independent country and they go full retard.
- cnprthrowaway 9y ago
  Absolutely. Many years ago, a family friend hosted a blog on his home server that had an anti-CPC article. A few weeks after the publication of that article, he found his router flashed and the blog content defaced. I'm a normal person with a normal life, hence the throwaway to reduce even the small chance of getting hit back, something that China seems to like to do (not coincidentally the exact topic of the original link). I'm not into conspiracy theories, but we know what Russia has likely already done on social media. China is just as clever and resourceful, if not more, and they want to save face. This makes indirect social media influence a temptation that is difficult for the CPC to resist at best.

StreamBright 9y ago

Could you share the source for these claims? I could not find anything that backs what you are saying. https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Chinese-economy-is-state-owned https://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-the-Chinese-economy...

schuke 9y ago

You forgot to mention they can use facial recognition to ID and publicize pedestrians who don't wait for green light. The sheer amount of resource and power they can wield against an individual citizen is unparalleled in the entire human history. The only thing stopping them from utilizing it is only its own bureaucratic inefficiency.

tomrod 9y ago

Fair: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-05/24/content_29469625.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-05/24/content_294696... It looks like their is a lot of miscommunication on the issue. Having seen authoritarian regimes behave on a smaller scale, I would not be terribly surprised if the miscommunication was intentional to see how the desired (very negative) policy was received, before backing down with a retraction to something less onerous.

superflb 9y ago

> I have a Chinese passport, but I cannot even buy train tickets online you can. Just select passport and fill the passport number. I did it multiple times.