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Caffeine and Cannabis Effects on Vital Neurotransmitters in Rats
- rowyourboat 9y agoI am a total layman, so could somebody explain the significance of this study? Obviously those substances alter the brain chemistry, that is not surprising, I think. How are those changes significant? Is there cause for concern?
- snarfy 9y agoCaffeine and cannabis work together. > However, the combination of cannabis and caffeine mostly caused synergetic response in the level of the neurotransmitters; this implies that both substances produced their individual effects and did not cancel out the effects of one another. This is also expected since they bind primarily to various receptors. Thus, the resultant relative hyper increase is the cumulative effect of their individual influences.
- zeofig 9y agoTwo quite different drugs don't entirely cancel out? An extraordinary finding indeed. We need to do more research.
- thecupisblue 9y agoI remember reading a lot about it canceling each other, this is pretty important.
- owebmaster 9y agoNever heard about it, been smoking for 10+ years.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoSame. To comment further: I still really enjoy my coffee.
- cptn_brittish 9y agoBeen smoking for a long time and a massive coffee drinker to the point work thinks something's wrong with me and Ive never felt the effects some of my googling describes regardless of my then Cannabis and Caffine intake.
- matwood 9y ago> Caffeine and cannabis work together. I wonder if it is a more extreme version of drinking tea? Tea has a calming chemical (Theanine), and caffeine so you end up with more of a mellow energy instead of the hyper energy from coffee.
- meuk 9y agoTheanine is also a fairly common substance in the smartdrugs community. People often stack it with caffeine to improve concentration and supress the jumpiness that caffeine often causes in higher doses.
- EVdotIO 9y agoColloquially known as a hippie speedball.
- tgerhard60 9y agoI rarely enjoy this during the work week, but it is definitely a Sunday morning staple. Great for steady mellow productivity.
- erokar 9y ago> Is there cause for concern? There is really nothing surprising about the findings. Also note that the animals' brain tissues were analyzed 24 hours after last administration, so it says little to nothing about permanent effects (which have never been found in other studies, afaik). I really don't get why trivial/unsurprising findings like this raise so high on HN.
- golergka 9y agoSoftware engineers (myself included) love thinking that they so smart that they follow other fields up to the latest research. (It doesn't mean that we're necessarily wrong though).
- trentmb 9y agoIts not limited to software engineers. Theres no shortage of blowhards that conflate knowing and understanding.
- sinemetu11 9y agoYep - illusion of explanatory depth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062901/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062901/
- dekhn 9y agoMy background is in biology (PhD, Biophysics) but I do software engineering. Few SWEs who follow biology have any clue or understanding, and easily get fooled by bio papers.
- pweissbrod 9y ago> Is there cause for concern? Accidentally smoking your coffee and brewing your cannabis will make for a rough day I imagine
- TomMarius 9y agoBrewing your cannabis will lead to a disgusting liquid, but nothing else. You'll feel bad but it will have no effects of cannabis because there will be zero THC. THC binds to fat so you have to add butter or oil to the water.
- 3131s 9y agoYou can make a tincture by combining cannabis with strong alcohol though.
- a012 9y agoIs it like cold brew coffee but cannabis and liquor?
- millzlane 9y agoYou're thinking of ice hash.
- 3131s 9y agoLook up "green dragon", it takes ~1 month to make and ends up turning a very pretty florescent green. A single shot gloss of the stuff is very strong, and two shots would be intense even for someone with a high familiarity / tolerance to cannabis.
- ac29 9y agoYeah, which is why I question their results for cannabis: "Cannabis aqueous extract was prepared by first blending the dried leaves, and then blending the dried leaves in fine powder using a dry blender. The fine powder was thereafter soaked in water for about 12 h and filtered; the substrate was evaporated to dryness, weighed, and then prepared into the mixture of suitable concentrations for the various animal groups". They also don't appear to have tested this solution for levels of THC, CBD, or anything else. Seems like a pretty poorly designed study. I'm somewhat surprised it even got published.
- rambossa 9y agosame here... good? bad? surprisingly good? etc.?
- lamename 9y agoNo. After a quick look, 1) the main point seems to be toward juveniles 2) this isn't a particularly in-depth study. As you said, substances alter chemistry, no surprise. To be clear, there's evidence elsewhere that caffeine and cannabis can have a negative impact on the developing brain, but the data here don't really go in depth on that.
- kevinSuttle 9y agoThese reports really need TL;DRs.
- DanBC 9y agoCaffiene affects the brain. Cannabis affects the brain. Using both together affects the brain more than we'd expect. Probably don't let children[1] use cannabis or caffiene, but certainly protect them from heavy long term use of either. [1] child is hard to define, but maybe anyone under 21.
- tyu100 9y agoThere is none. Rat/mice studies are used as very early steps to point directions for actually significant studies in human populations.
- sifoo 9y agoThe combination is commonly known as Hippie Speedball. Apathy can mean different things. All psychedelics remove filters to some extent, and Cannabis is no different in this respect. Experiencing your self and your life without filters carries the potential to make it more difficult to keep up appearances.
- leemailll 9y agoIf both can't significantly change neurotransmitters, that would be a splash
- zeckalpha 9y ago> 100 mg/kg I don’t know about mice, but for a human, that would be a lot of caffeine.
- dnate 9y agoyes, that's about half the LD50 for humans. Definitely more than you would consume as a non-addict on a regular day.
- taneq 9y agoA cup of drip coffee is what, 90mg? (Source: https://www.coffeechemistry.com/chemistry/alkaloids/caffeine-content-in-espresso-vs-drip-coffee https://www.coffeechemistry.com/chemistry/alkaloids/caffeine...) So 100 mg/kg would be 70-90 cups of coffee. I'm wired after 4-6 cups.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- scottmf 9y agoIt probably isn’t for mice. They always have a much higher mg/kg value. 100mg/kg is ~4–5mg for a mouse.
- naasking 9y ago> 100mg/kg is ~4–5mg for a mouse. A small absolute amount, but a very large amount relative to body weight, which is what matters. For a human, that's the equivalent of 70 x 8 oz cups of coffee.
- ccozan 9y agoI suspect is µg/kg
- scottmf 9y agoAnyone else in the UK unable to access ncbi.nlm.nih.gov? I couldn’t access it yesterday either.
- wjh_ 9y agoMy subnet is blocked, but I'm going through my VPS... Apparently the subnet I'm on has been blocked for bulk downloading.
- viperscape 9y agoThe article mentions "cannabis abuse" a few times, what metric is there to put use into the abuse column?
- drjesusphd 9y agoUsing when illegal seems to be the common definition.
- DanBC 9y agoUse turns into abuse when the person is aware of harmful effects but continues to use. Or when the person wishes to discontinue use but is unable to. Some definitions include very high rates of use.
- taneq 9y agoIt has to be more than just "is aware of harmful effects but continues to use", otherwise anyone who is aware of the existence of hangovers (or other negative effects) but continues to drink alcohol is "abusing" it. It would have to be something like "the person using the substance doesn't feel that the positive effects are worth the negative effects but they still cannot stop using it."
- dimovich 9y agoCoffee, weed and plenty of water.
- nonbel 9y agoWhat is a vital vs non-vital neurotransmitter? They don't define this in the paper so that term seems totally superfluous.
- lamename 9y agopaper affiliation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babcock_University https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babcock_University
- lamename 9y agoMaybe more informative is https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-nutr-071816-064941 https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev-nutr-... Maybe paywalled so I'll emphasize the last sentence of the abstract: "Given the spectrum of conditions studied and the robustness of many of the results, these findings indicate that coffee can be part of a healthful diet."
- __x0x__ 9y agoLooks like a crap article in a crap journal. In the abstract they refer to cannabis as a stimulant, which seems quite incorrect. Also the results are unsurprising and not very exciting.
- DanBC 9y agoThe word "stimulant" refers to this: > The levels of G-6-PDH were increased in the brain tissues of all the treated animals (Fig. (Fig.5).5). Caffeine produced quite more significant effects relative to cannabis and the combination of both increased the level of G-6-PDH greatly.
- cptn_brittish 9y agoCannabis seems to bridge the gap between all major drug types with it simultaneously acting as a stimulate, depressant and psychedelic with the depressant being the most obvious to a user.
- Mo3 9y agoNothing has ever done me more good than this combination. My biggest success in work at my current company, a big API-first platform for insurance comparison was built from scratch in 2 weeks time, spent locked inside my apartment, coffee machine running 24/7, a 100mg cookie in the morning and a joint every 2 hours. No one knows.
- meuk 9y agoI am convinced that cannabis improves concentration and eliminates feelings of boredom. I always was average at best at football. I smoked cannabis before a match once. It was by far the best match I ever played and I scored thrice. Of course, this is anecdotal evidence and could be a coincidence, but I am firmly convinced of the effect.
- 2_listerine_pls 9y ago> I am convinced that cannabis improves concentration > I am firmly convinced of the effect It actually impairs attention and affects short-term memory.
- meuk 9y ago> It actually impairs attention and affects short-term memory. And it kills your sperm as well. I think that these are long-term effects though, I was talking about the direct effects (the dose probably matters as well). It actually makes sense that the use of cannabis improves attention but impairs attention in the long run. Compare it with drinking coffee. The first time I drank a strong cup, I had a strong boost of energy and felt a little euphoric even. I am now a heavy caffeine user, and when I don't drink coffee I actually feel more tired than usual.
- Mo3 9y agoSorry, but after 10 years of smoking almost every day (and stopping for months completely in between), I can assure you that this isn't true. At least not in the generalized form. Everyone is different. I have ADHD, for example. Cannabis naturally calms me down to actually focus, it makes me function. I start cleaning and programming where 10 minutes before I was all over the place mentally. I've tried Amphetamines but the side effects are just incredible. Of course there's also the guy who will let his apartment go to complete waste and stop caring, but you can't generalize effects of a substance. Some react completely differently.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- tyu100 9y agoPlease stop posting these pre-clinical studies on rats and mice! No one should ever be taking anything away from these sorts of studies for human health.
- dekhn 9y agoThis paper is useless garbage in terms of telling us anything about humans who consume either or both of these drugs.
- iancmceachern 9y agoMac Lethal made a song about it: https://youtu.be/DTY3GQPXU7A https://youtu.be/DTY3GQPXU7A