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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

254 points by felixbraun 9y ago

Proven 9y ago
Green fascists
dingo_bat 9y ago
Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.
- samastur 9y ago
  Generally they are not. Newer ones are within limits set acceptable by emission standards, but those standards don't really model real world use where their performance is generally atrocious. I happen to be (now not very happy) owner of a diesel car.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  It’s backed by science. Due to the high temperatures in a Diesel engine, the amount of NOx produced is far higher than for petrol cars. NOx can be handled by a catalysator using AdBlue or similar, so in theory Diesel engines could be clean. In practice the standards are routinely ignored by the car makers. The ruling allows banning cars that do not fulfil current standards, so a recent car is probably unaffected. However, the restriction could be lifted if only banning old cars proves insufficient. Then, newer cars could be affected.
- ygra 9y ago
  From the article: »Cities will probably target models with older emission controls. Of the 15 million diesel cars on Germany’s roads, only 2.7 million have the latest Euro-6 technology, data by the KBA motor vehicle watchdog showed.«
- estel 9y ago
  I think cities are only interested in banning older diesels that don't meet Euro-5 or Euro-6.
  - davrosthedalek 9y ago
    Most cities in Germany are not interested banning them in the first place. They already have the problem that people don't go shopping in the cities anymore, with amazon and co. making it so easy to shop from home. So making it harder to get into the city is not what they want.
- majewsky 9y ago
  Diesel cars have been under fire for quite some time because auto makers across the entire industry cheat on emission tests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
  - ptha 9y ago
    Episode 1 (Hard NOx) of the Netflix series "Dirty Money" covers this quite well: https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100 https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100 The other episodes are also worth a watch.
- rerx 9y ago
  They emit less of the greenhouse gas CO_2 than gasoline engines, but often more unhealthy nitrogen oxides and particulate matter.
- ianbooker 9y ago
  Yes it is. It is not about CO2 emissions, where Diesel engines are indeed more efficient than petrol engines, but about the "fine dust" emitted by a highly charged turbo setup, like most modern Diesel layouts are...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- cwal37 9y ago
  There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate in favorable conditions you can cut those emissions dramatically, but as far as I know it isn't widespread among the personal diesel fleet. [1] http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-polluting-than-petrol-cars-76241 http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really...
  - adventured 9y ago
    Is the small particulate problem essentially what caused the infamous smog problems in Paris in recent years?
  - brownbat 9y ago
    Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust. Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually. There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles into the air, suspending them in the air. That process is driven by vehicle weight, size, and aerodynamics, and contributes about two-thirds of the particulates from all vehicle sources. One of the interesting takeaways from all that is that average vehicle weight can be massively important to local air conditions (no pun intended). I think there's still some debate about the exact relationship between weight to PM output, but lighter frames and smaller vehicles are probably a good idea: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html
    - bergie 9y ago
      Related to PM output, here is a crowdsourced effort to collect air quality data around the world: https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0 https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0 Building and deploying your own sensor is pretty easy: https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/ https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/
- Arnt 9y ago
  The emission standards in question are per m² in the city, not per car. It doesn't matter whether the emissions come from 1000 clean or 100 dirty cars.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Diesel cars produce less CO2, and I believe that's only because diesel engines use less fuel than gas engines (about 40% less). This was the idea behind "diesel being cleaner". However, diesel is way more dangerous to human life because of the NOx particles. This is why diesel cars will now be the first to go.
  - ygra 9y ago
    > because of the NOx particles You may be lumping two things together there: (NOₓ) NO and NO₂, as well as particulate matter. Those are different products of the combustion, with different environmental and health effects.
- guardian5x 9y ago
  This is about NOx, which is not healthy for humans. In regards to CO2, which is bad for the climate, Diesels are indeed better than petrol cars.
  - loverofthings 9y ago
    NOx is also the biggest product of animal agriculture. It also has an effect on climate change. Global warming potential is around 300 times larger than CO2. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...
    - mseebach 9y ago
      Not a chemist, but pretty sure Nitrous oxide (N2O) isn't in the NOx family.
      - loverofthings 9y ago
        True.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Modern diesels, sure. Latest offerings from BMW, Mercedes or Audi are actually super clean, especially if equipped with an AdBlue system. But get out on the road and you see people still driving 90s diesels which emit huge plumes of black smoke every time they accelerate, and I know people who buy brand new cars and the first thing they do is cut out the DPF, EGR and pretty much every other emissions reducing system "to keep the running costs low". It's a disgrace, and older diesels should absolutely be straight up banned in cities with very harsh penalties for modifying modern ones(in UK removing the DPF attracts a £5000 fine, but in many EU countries it's still not a problem).
- paradigmshiv 9y ago
  Ehh.... I worked for a long time as a mechanic on diesel engines. The engines are designed to conform with emissions requirements as they are written, not necessarily to be more efficient or cleaner. And of course some auto manufacturers have taken rather "creative" approaches to meeting these requirements. Even with everything above board, the technology is not really there to make diesel a great solution for autos. First, the emissions equipment in modern diesel engines adds weight and reduces engine airflow, making them less efficient than they could be. In fact, today's small diesel engines are only 10-20% more efficient than gas equivalents, when in the past they have been over 50% more efficient. There are three primary types of pollution that come from an internal combustion engine--carbon, which causes global warming; nitrous oxides, which cause smog, and particulate matter, which contributes to air pollution and also causes all sorts of nasty health problems. Diesel engines are better than gasoline on carbon emissions by virtue of being more efficient, although as I mentioned this gap is closing. Special catalytic exhaust equipment has been added to newer diesel engines to reduce nitrous oxides, but it's expensive and the environmental benefits are marginal. Particulate matter is addressed by burning the soot that comes out of the exhaust, again using expensive equipment that reduces efficiency, and AFAIK the science is still out on whether and by how much this actually reduces environmental/health impacts. Some municipalities in the US have perhaps misguidedly banned diesel engines from their roads. The situation is a little different in Europe, where diesel engines are found in a much larger share of passenger vehicles. If Europeans drove as much as Americans did, their cities would all look like LA circa 1975. I'm not sure about car ownership trends in Europe, but I think it would make sense for any city that expects increases in car ownership to start regulating diesel more heavily.
- izacus 9y ago
  Besides all the other answers here, there's a surprising amount of people that disable DPF units on their diesels making them very dirty.
Arnt 9y ago
The backstory here: EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high. German law prohibits various kinds of discrimination. For example, a simple ban on half the cars on Monday and the other on Tuesday would bother large plumber companies much less than independent plumbers who need a carful of tools and have only one car. What actions are the cities permitted to take, and/or required.
- thesimon 9y ago
  >EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high And it mandates that for around 15 years now. One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at least 8 years now. It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do something effective.
  - Arnt 9y ago
    I think that's by design. The law is a compromise, written such that the unpleasantness would bite, but would not bite until the people who negotiated the compromise were safely out of office.
  - odiroot 9y ago
    > (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits Funnily enough multiple car factories are based here.
    - woodpanel 9y ago
      True, Stuttgart as the biggest cluster of German car manufacturing has been the epicentre of the German pollution-debate (that was based around particulate matter, not NOX). The Diesel has become somehow the victim of this (sadly, since as mentioned by other commenters here, Diesel cars have their advantages). The reason Stuttgart is Germany's pollution capital has almost nothing to do with the Diesel but: - its topography, being a city almost completely surrounded by hills, thus unusually hot and windless for a German city - the upper class areas on the hillside/slopes are the main polluters with houses dating from ca 1900 and/or re-equipped with pellet heating systems that were subsidized because of energy footprint while being even worse pollution-wise than even older heaters Both of these points are validated by the fact, that it's not the weekends when the pollution calms but its the winters when there is almost a daily pollution warning - its when the rich people heat. Even the plaintiffs in the other recent (particulate matter focused) important German pollution case complained that a Diesel ban does nothing for the pollution situation: The main source for car based emissions aren't the engines - but the wheels.
rerx 9y ago
Note that this ruling is only to clarify that cities are allowed to implement car bans on their own without a federal directive in place. Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans.
- thesimon 9y ago
  >Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans. They already have been forced to implement such bans by the lower court. The cities appealed, but as decided today were unsuccessful in doing so.
  - rerx 9y ago
    Well, some have.
paganel 9y ago
Partially related: "Fiat Chrysler is reportedly ditching diesel cars by 2022" (https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-diesel-car-end-production-2022 https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-di...). Diesel sales are collapsing all over Europe, I think one of the latest reports puts the number of new Diesel cars sold in France at just under 50%, while they used to be at 75% four or five years ago. The writing is on the wall.
adrianN 9y ago
Excellent news for the air quality in German cities. We've been blatantly breaking German and EU law for years now.
yostrovs 9y ago
It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5f-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investments in solar, electricity is four times the price as in US, plus they now have to buy from France cause they don't produce enough. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent-renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca...
- guardian5x 9y ago
  Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. (https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germanys-electricity-exports-surplus-brings-record-revenue-of-over-two-billion-euros.html https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa...) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.
  - yostrovs 9y ago
    Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.
    - olex 9y ago
      > slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). This is offset by higher road tax and insurance somewhat, but for commuters and others who drive a lot (>~20000km per year) diesels are a much more cost effective option in Germany than anything else.
Shivetya 9y ago
I assume they are removing cars and buses making use of this tech first as they are far more likely to be dirty that cars. Even the cheating VW cars were still magnitudes cleaner than the immediate previous generation. I think they are going to find their pollution problem is nearly as bad and will need to make more difficult choices rather than relying on fear of a partial truth. It isn't just diesel cars making their cities dirty. As stated, the change made to even the cheating cars would have demonstrated such if it were just cars
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Buses, HGV's and all other large vehicles actually tend to run okay on diesel, because they are large and expensive enough to carry and pay for the necessary equipment to reduce NOx and PM. It's small cars in particular where diesel just doesn't work.
albertgoeswoof 9y ago
I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP. My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions) But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies. So what is the government telling me to purchase? I can't buy an electric car because I only have on street parking so there's nowhere to charge it, and decent electric cars aren't really available at the 10k mark yet.
- xiphias 9y ago
  I thin 240/annum is small compared to the devaluation that diesel cars will go through. The air quality in London is awful (I went there for 2 days and couldn't stand it), so laws will change there as well.
- dankusmcmeme 9y ago
  There's some politicians including some in the government that don't want to punish people for following the past recommendations of the government i.e. buying a diesel car.
- jk563 9y ago
  I could be wrong, but I would guess that your quandary isn't to do with the policy as such, but the way it's been gamed by car manufacturers. That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones. Get a petrol car pay the tax would be my recommendation. Depends on what you need too. My 5-year-old petrol Fiesta was <£10k and is £0 road tax.
  - mywittyname 9y ago
    > That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones. Is NOx a consideration for road taxes? If not, that's the issue. Diesels do emit less CO2 than gasoline and AFAIK, no auto companies were "cheating" CO2 emissions, just NOx.
TheLostOne 9y ago
As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236496X https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236496X
- TomMarius 9y ago
  It'd also practically stop economic growth of areas outside large cities and slow down economic growth of the city itself. Many businesses would be ruined (and thus people working on them). Many people would loose their jobs. This is a very backwards approach. Why don't we destroy our cities that have replaced the beautiful nature that used to be there instead of them?
  - jonasvp 9y ago
    [citation needed] Cars are a net negative for societies (see e.g. https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateien/vortraege_prof_becker/EP_External-costs-car-final_UB_20121206_neu.pdf?lang=de https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateie...). Just imagine having most (80%+) of goods transported by cargo bike: lots of (local!) employment, lots of new technology needed, etc.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      So let's take a different approach: Let's find a better solution for individual transportation that doesn't require human labor (e.g. pedaling) and offers the same benefits (ability to comfortably make 500 km per working day, for example - that's average daily mileage of a taxi driver).
      - noelwelsh 9y ago
        You seem very much in favour of cars, but also imagining that cities without cars would look much like cities with cars. Huge amounts of land are given over to roads and parking. Get rid of these and you have much denser cities without decreasing usable space per inhabitant.
neverminder 9y ago
Eastern Europe will be flooded with those cars now. http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for-eastern-europe/a-40224565 http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for...
- madez 9y ago
  The EU comission threatened to fine Germany for the air pollution caused by these cars. I expect they'd treat other EU countries the same.
  - bergie 9y ago
    Already happening: > The EU’s top court ruled that Poland has persistently breached European standards on air pollution, which causes nearly 50,000 deaths in the country each year. https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640 https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761...
    - kgabis 9y ago
      It's not caused by old cars (for the most part), but rather by people burning cheap coal in inefficient furnaces to keep warm during winter (see "energy poverty").
  - kbart 9y ago
    I don't see how that will work in real world. In most Eastern Europe average car is like 15 years old diesel, so these (cheap) semi-new diesels that will go there from Germany will actually be an upgrade.
- technofiend 9y ago
  Right. Seems like Germany needs a cash for clunkers program like the US had. The best way to guarantee a car not pollute is recycle it into constituent components.
  - cheschire 9y ago
InTheArena 9y ago
European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but they have further to go. Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla, viewing it as a challenge to its crown jewel automotive companies (no credits, no additional supercharger stations, much harsher reading of laws to protect their own industries). You know that Germany will be serious when that changes.... (or the German car companies will have finally caught up to Tesla’s battery power and power train)...
- jacquesm 9y ago
  A big part of the problem here is the the EU was focusing on CO2 rather than NOx and that diesels are actually really good in the CO2 department.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    Very true, but that’s partly because they believe NOx emissions were lower than they really were, thanks to cheating. I like to think that if they’d realized the magnitude of the non-CO2 issues, they would have taken a different path.
  - fyfy18 9y ago
    Fun fact: NOx emmisions actually help to counter global warming, as they break down methane particles, which is one of the worst greenhouse gases.
- woodpanel 9y ago
  Speaking about "rhetoric": "Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla" How exactly does not subsidizing a company amounts to being restrictive?
  - Barrin92 9y ago
    not to mention that supercharger stations also would be beneficial to all German producers, because they too invest into electrical cars. VWs investment is about five times larger than Tesla's which isn't surprising given the size of the company.
blubb-fish 9y ago
awesome news - first of all public transportation in any town with more than a hundred thousand inhabitants is good enough that nobody needs to use a car except for very specific cases. of course if everybody would switch to ÖPNV then the capacity would be maxed out - so the conclusion is increasing availability of public transportation. also the way parts of government (mostly those rooted in Bavaria) attempted together with VW, Audio etc. to weasel their way out of taking responsibility. the testing applied was stupid and lacking realism - but nonetheless they programmed software that detects a test and adjusts the motor's inner workings. that's beyond benefiting of stupidity - that is criminal. It feels great, great, great - I hope this will strengthen research and development for and of electric vehicles.
Angostura 9y ago
A correction to the headline; its only older diesels, not all diesels. From way down the article: > Cars that meet Euro-4 emissions standards could be banned from Stuttgart from next January, while Euro-5 vehicles should not be banned until Sept. 1, 2019, four years after the introduction of the latest Euro-6 standard. If you have a diesel with Ad Blu designed to catalytically remove NOx, you should be OK for now.
andrewla 9y ago
Can anyone more familiar with this case comment on what exactly happened here? It sounds like two private organizations, DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe) and ClientEarth, sued a couple of cities (Munich, Stuttgart, and Dusseldorf, possibly among others), saying they had to improve air quality. This was, apparently, on the basis that the cities had illegally high levels of NOx -- I'm not certain on what basis this was illegal, whether German or EU regulations. Munich offered a ban, which everyone was happy with. Stuttgart and Dusseldorf attempted to offer a mitigation strategy, and DUH and ClientEarth sued again saying that the mitigation was insufficient, and the judge ruled that they only a ban would suffice. The cities appealed, apparently on the basis that they were not legally allowed to impose such a ban(?) and now, a higher court has ruled that they are legally allowed to impose such a ban.
- megy 9y ago
  Great summary. This is so good to see, one of the advantages of living in Europe.
enothereska 9y ago
Wouldn't it be great if Tesla kicks these cheaters in the bin and wins the car race (like the iPhone did vs. the other phones)? Pity producing cars isn't as fast as manufacturing an iPhone. Germany's industry is in real trouble, looks like they were cheating.
- megy 9y ago
  What would be really great if we could get rid of cars all together, spend all that money on an awesome PT system, and convert 80% of roads into parks and other uses. Make suburbs actually nice places to live.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  iPhones are produced by contract manufacturers. That's not how the car business is organized: there's no existing contract manufacturer that can produce the Model 3 in high volume. They only exist for low-volume, high-end cars.

254 points by felixbraun 9y ago

Green fascists

Is this backed by real science? I was under the impression that modern diesels were highly efficient and quite within the acceptable emission standards.

samastur 9y ago
Generally they are not. Newer ones are within limits set acceptable by emission standards, but those standards don't really model real world use where their performance is generally atrocious. I happen to be (now not very happy) owner of a diesel car.
Xylakant 9y ago
It’s backed by science. Due to the high temperatures in a Diesel engine, the amount of NOx produced is far higher than for petrol cars. NOx can be handled by a catalysator using AdBlue or similar, so in theory Diesel engines could be clean. In practice the standards are routinely ignored by the car makers. The ruling allows banning cars that do not fulfil current standards, so a recent car is probably unaffected. However, the restriction could be lifted if only banning old cars proves insufficient. Then, newer cars could be affected.
ygra 9y ago
From the article: »Cities will probably target models with older emission controls. Of the 15 million diesel cars on Germany’s roads, only 2.7 million have the latest Euro-6 technology, data by the KBA motor vehicle watchdog showed.«
estel 9y ago
I think cities are only interested in banning older diesels that don't meet Euro-5 or Euro-6.
- davrosthedalek 9y ago
  Most cities in Germany are not interested banning them in the first place. They already have the problem that people don't go shopping in the cities anymore, with amazon and co. making it so easy to shop from home. So making it harder to get into the city is not what they want.
majewsky 9y ago
Diesel cars have been under fire for quite some time because auto makers across the entire industry cheat on emission tests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
- ptha 9y ago
  Episode 1 (Hard NOx) of the Netflix series "Dirty Money" covers this quite well: https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100 https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100 The other episodes are also worth a watch.
rerx 9y ago
They emit less of the greenhouse gas CO_2 than gasoline engines, but often more unhealthy nitrogen oxides and particulate matter.
ianbooker 9y ago
Yes it is. It is not about CO2 emissions, where Diesel engines are indeed more efficient than petrol engines, but about the "fine dust" emitted by a highly charged turbo setup, like most modern Diesel layouts are...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
cwal37 9y ago
There's a big difference between general "emissions" which a lot of people take colloquially to just mean greenhouse gases (and CO2 in particular with combustion engines), and then the small particulates and other things (like NOx) that create worse local air conditions[1]. Most "modern" diesels in use do still have the latter problem. I think at the very cutting edge, if you maintain a very good filter and operate in favorable conditions you can cut those emissions dramatically, but as far as I know it isn't widespread among the personal diesel fleet. [1] http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really-more-polluting-than-petrol-cars-76241 http://theconversation.com/fact-check-are-diesel-cars-really...
- adventured 9y ago
  Is the small particulate problem essentially what caused the infamous smog problems in Paris in recent years?
- brownbat 9y ago
  Most local air pollution, counterintuitively, doesn't even come from exhaust. Wear on tires, brakes, and the road each contribute more individually. There's another process called resuspension that dwarfs even these. Cars grind down large particles sitting on the road, making heavy particles light enough to float in the air. Then the cars' wake kicks those newly light particles into the air, suspending them in the air. That process is driven by vehicle weight, size, and aerodynamics, and contributes about two-thirds of the particulates from all vehicle sources. One of the interesting takeaways from all that is that average vehicle weight can be massively important to local air conditions (no pun intended). I think there's still some debate about the exact relationship between weight to PM output, but lighter frames and smaller vehicles are probably a good idea: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html
  - bergie 9y ago
    Related to PM output, here is a crowdsourced effort to collect air quality data around the world: https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0 https://maps.luftdaten.info/#2/0.0/0.0 Building and deploying your own sensor is pretty easy: https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/ https://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microflo-particulate-sensors/
Arnt 9y ago
The emission standards in question are per m² in the city, not per car. It doesn't matter whether the emissions come from 1000 clean or 100 dirty cars.
mtgx 9y ago
Diesel cars produce less CO2, and I believe that's only because diesel engines use less fuel than gas engines (about 40% less). This was the idea behind "diesel being cleaner". However, diesel is way more dangerous to human life because of the NOx particles. This is why diesel cars will now be the first to go.
- ygra 9y ago
  > because of the NOx particles You may be lumping two things together there: (NOₓ) NO and NO₂, as well as particulate matter. Those are different products of the combustion, with different environmental and health effects.
guardian5x 9y ago
This is about NOx, which is not healthy for humans. In regards to CO2, which is bad for the climate, Diesels are indeed better than petrol cars.
- loverofthings 9y ago
  NOx is also the biggest product of animal agriculture. It also has an effect on climate change. Global warming potential is around 300 times larger than CO2. [1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Values https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_potential#Value...
  - mseebach 9y ago
    Not a chemist, but pretty sure Nitrous oxide (N2O) isn't in the NOx family.
    - loverofthings 9y ago
      True.
gambiting 9y ago
Modern diesels, sure. Latest offerings from BMW, Mercedes or Audi are actually super clean, especially if equipped with an AdBlue system. But get out on the road and you see people still driving 90s diesels which emit huge plumes of black smoke every time they accelerate, and I know people who buy brand new cars and the first thing they do is cut out the DPF, EGR and pretty much every other emissions reducing system "to keep the running costs low". It's a disgrace, and older diesels should absolutely be straight up banned in cities with very harsh penalties for modifying modern ones(in UK removing the DPF attracts a £5000 fine, but in many EU countries it's still not a problem).
paradigmshiv 9y ago
Ehh.... I worked for a long time as a mechanic on diesel engines. The engines are designed to conform with emissions requirements as they are written, not necessarily to be more efficient or cleaner. And of course some auto manufacturers have taken rather "creative" approaches to meeting these requirements. Even with everything above board, the technology is not really there to make diesel a great solution for autos. First, the emissions equipment in modern diesel engines adds weight and reduces engine airflow, making them less efficient than they could be. In fact, today's small diesel engines are only 10-20% more efficient than gas equivalents, when in the past they have been over 50% more efficient. There are three primary types of pollution that come from an internal combustion engine--carbon, which causes global warming; nitrous oxides, which cause smog, and particulate matter, which contributes to air pollution and also causes all sorts of nasty health problems. Diesel engines are better than gasoline on carbon emissions by virtue of being more efficient, although as I mentioned this gap is closing. Special catalytic exhaust equipment has been added to newer diesel engines to reduce nitrous oxides, but it's expensive and the environmental benefits are marginal. Particulate matter is addressed by burning the soot that comes out of the exhaust, again using expensive equipment that reduces efficiency, and AFAIK the science is still out on whether and by how much this actually reduces environmental/health impacts. Some municipalities in the US have perhaps misguidedly banned diesel engines from their roads. The situation is a little different in Europe, where diesel engines are found in a much larger share of passenger vehicles. If Europeans drove as much as Americans did, their cities would all look like LA circa 1975. I'm not sure about car ownership trends in Europe, but I think it would make sense for any city that expects increases in car ownership to start regulating diesel more heavily.
izacus 9y ago
Besides all the other answers here, there's a surprising amount of people that disable DPF units on their diesels making them very dirty.

Arnt 9y ago

The backstory here: EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high. German law prohibits various kinds of discrimination. For example, a simple ban on half the cars on Monday and the other on Tuesday would bother large plumber companies much less than independent plumbers who need a carful of tools and have only one car. What actions are the cities permitted to take, and/or required.

thesimon 9y ago
>EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high And it mandates that for around 15 years now. One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at least 8 years now. It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do something effective.
- Arnt 9y ago
  I think that's by design. The law is a compromise, written such that the unpleasantness would bite, but would not bite until the people who negotiated the compromise were safely out of office.
- odiroot 9y ago
  > (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits Funnily enough multiple car factories are based here.
  - woodpanel 9y ago
    True, Stuttgart as the biggest cluster of German car manufacturing has been the epicentre of the German pollution-debate (that was based around particulate matter, not NOX). The Diesel has become somehow the victim of this (sadly, since as mentioned by other commenters here, Diesel cars have their advantages). The reason Stuttgart is Germany's pollution capital has almost nothing to do with the Diesel but: - its topography, being a city almost completely surrounded by hills, thus unusually hot and windless for a German city - the upper class areas on the hillside/slopes are the main polluters with houses dating from ca 1900 and/or re-equipped with pellet heating systems that were subsidized because of energy footprint while being even worse pollution-wise than even older heaters Both of these points are validated by the fact, that it's not the weekends when the pollution calms but its the winters when there is almost a daily pollution warning - its when the rich people heat. Even the plaintiffs in the other recent (particulate matter focused) important German pollution case complained that a Diesel ban does nothing for the pollution situation: The main source for car based emissions aren't the engines - but the wheels.

rerx 9y ago

Note that this ruling is only to clarify that cities are allowed to implement car bans on their own without a federal directive in place. Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans.

thesimon 9y ago
>Now we will have to wait and see if the cities will actually be sued into having to implement such bans. They already have been forced to implement such bans by the lower court. The cities appealed, but as decided today were unsuccessful in doing so.
- rerx 9y ago
  Well, some have.

paganel 9y ago

Partially related: "Fiat Chrysler is reportedly ditching diesel cars by 2022" (https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-diesel-car-end-production-2022 https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/26/17053362/fiat-chrysler-di...). Diesel sales are collapsing all over Europe, I think one of the latest reports puts the number of new Diesel cars sold in France at just under 50%, while they used to be at 75% four or five years ago. The writing is on the wall.

adrianN 9y ago

Excellent news for the air quality in German cities. We've been blatantly breaking German and EU law for years now.

yostrovs 9y ago

It's important to note that popularity of diesel is the doing of the German government. The fuel is subsidized for the sake of the environment because it's more efficient. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5f-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/eb8be120-de5... The situation is similar to Germany's work on its electric power sources. Nuclear was turned off because it's dangerous. Now Germany spews out about same carbon as before giant investments in solar, electricity is four times the price as in US, plus they now have to buy from France cause they don't produce enough. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2017/10/10/why-arent-renewables-decreasing-germanys-carbon-emissions/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca...

guardian5x 9y ago
Sorry, but some of your statements are only partially correct. In fact germany exports more energy than it imports. (https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germanys-electricity-exports-surplus-brings-record-revenue-of-over-two-billion-euros.html https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/news/2016/germa...) Also the popularity of diesel might have other factors as well.
- yostrovs 9y ago
  Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.
  - olex 9y ago
    > slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). This is offset by higher road tax and insurance somewhat, but for commuters and others who drive a lot (>~20000km per year) diesels are a much more cost effective option in Germany than anything else.

Shivetya 9y ago

I assume they are removing cars and buses making use of this tech first as they are far more likely to be dirty that cars. Even the cheating VW cars were still magnitudes cleaner than the immediate previous generation. I think they are going to find their pollution problem is nearly as bad and will need to make more difficult choices rather than relying on fear of a partial truth. It isn't just diesel cars making their cities dirty. As stated, the change made to even the cheating cars would have demonstrated such if it were just cars

Brakenshire 9y ago
Buses, HGV's and all other large vehicles actually tend to run okay on diesel, because they are large and expensive enough to carry and pay for the necessary equipment to reduce NOx and PM. It's small cars in particular where diesel just doesn't work.

albertgoeswoof 9y ago

I am so confused by government policy here in the UK. Right now I'm looking at a 5 year old used Diesel car with £0 road tax and 70+ MPG for about 10k GBP. My current Petrol engine costs £130/annum road tax, and only gets 30-40 MPG, I can also buy petrol cars with road tax of £240-500/annum (based on emissions) But if I buy the Diesel, it could be banned or worthless in a few years, because of these types of policies. So what is the government telling me to purchase? I can't buy an electric car because I only have on street parking so there's nowhere to charge it, and decent electric cars aren't really available at the 10k mark yet.

xiphias 9y ago
I thin 240/annum is small compared to the devaluation that diesel cars will go through. The air quality in London is awful (I went there for 2 days and couldn't stand it), so laws will change there as well.
dankusmcmeme 9y ago
There's some politicians including some in the government that don't want to punish people for following the past recommendations of the government i.e. buying a diesel car.
jk563 9y ago
I could be wrong, but I would guess that your quandary isn't to do with the policy as such, but the way it's been gamed by car manufacturers. That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones. Get a petrol car pay the tax would be my recommendation. Depends on what you need too. My 5-year-old petrol Fiesta was <£10k and is £0 road tax.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  > That diesel would likely have a much higher road tax if its actual emissions were taken in to account, and not just the lab-based ones. Is NOx a consideration for road taxes? If not, that's the issue. Diesels do emit less CO2 than gasoline and AFAIK, no auto companies were "cheating" CO2 emissions, just NOx.

TheLostOne 9y ago

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236496X https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236496X

TomMarius 9y ago
It'd also practically stop economic growth of areas outside large cities and slow down economic growth of the city itself. Many businesses would be ruined (and thus people working on them). Many people would loose their jobs. This is a very backwards approach. Why don't we destroy our cities that have replaced the beautiful nature that used to be there instead of them?
- jonasvp 9y ago
  [citation needed] Cars are a net negative for societies (see e.g. https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateien/vortraege_prof_becker/EP_External-costs-car-final_UB_20121206_neu.pdf?lang=de https://tu-dresden.de/bu/verkehr/ivs/voeko/ressourcen/dateie...). Just imagine having most (80%+) of goods transported by cargo bike: lots of (local!) employment, lots of new technology needed, etc.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    So let's take a different approach: Let's find a better solution for individual transportation that doesn't require human labor (e.g. pedaling) and offers the same benefits (ability to comfortably make 500 km per working day, for example - that's average daily mileage of a taxi driver).
    - noelwelsh 9y ago
      You seem very much in favour of cars, but also imagining that cities without cars would look much like cities with cars. Huge amounts of land are given over to roads and parking. Get rid of these and you have much denser cities without decreasing usable space per inhabitant.

neverminder 9y ago

Eastern Europe will be flooded with those cars now. http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for-eastern-europe/a-40224565 http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for...

madez 9y ago
The EU comission threatened to fine Germany for the air pollution caused by these cars. I expect they'd treat other EU countries the same.
- bergie 9y ago
  Already happening: > The EU’s top court ruled that Poland has persistently breached European standards on air pollution, which causes nearly 50,000 deaths in the country each year. https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761640 https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761...
  - kgabis 9y ago
    It's not caused by old cars (for the most part), but rather by people burning cheap coal in inefficient furnaces to keep warm during winter (see "energy poverty").
- kbart 9y ago
  I don't see how that will work in real world. In most Eastern Europe average car is like 15 years old diesel, so these (cheap) semi-new diesels that will go there from Germany will actually be an upgrade.
technofiend 9y ago
Right. Seems like Germany needs a cash for clunkers program like the US had. The best way to guarantee a car not pollute is recycle it into constituent components.
- cheschire 9y ago

InTheArena 9y ago

European law has been very tilted towards Diesel engines for a long time. As the recent VW debacle proved - oversight was quite lax compared to the US diesel regs. This laxness was the result of the influence of BMW, Mercedes and VW and the outcome of years of corporate lobbying. It’s a good first step, but they have further to go. Despite the rhetoric, Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla, viewing it as a challenge to its crown jewel automotive companies (no credits, no additional supercharger stations, much harsher reading of laws to protect their own industries). You know that Germany will be serious when that changes.... (or the German car companies will have finally caught up to Tesla’s battery power and power train)...

jacquesm 9y ago
A big part of the problem here is the the EU was focusing on CO2 rather than NOx and that diesels are actually really good in the CO2 department.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  Very true, but that’s partly because they believe NOx emissions were lower than they really were, thanks to cheating. I like to think that if they’d realized the magnitude of the non-CO2 issues, they would have taken a different path.
- fyfy18 9y ago
  Fun fact: NOx emmisions actually help to counter global warming, as they break down methane particles, which is one of the worst greenhouse gases.
woodpanel 9y ago
Speaking about "rhetoric": "Germany has also been very restrictive with Tesla" How exactly does not subsidizing a company amounts to being restrictive?
- Barrin92 9y ago
  not to mention that supercharger stations also would be beneficial to all German producers, because they too invest into electrical cars. VWs investment is about five times larger than Tesla's which isn't surprising given the size of the company.

blubb-fish 9y ago

awesome news - first of all public transportation in any town with more than a hundred thousand inhabitants is good enough that nobody needs to use a car except for very specific cases. of course if everybody would switch to ÖPNV then the capacity would be maxed out - so the conclusion is increasing availability of public transportation. also the way parts of government (mostly those rooted in Bavaria) attempted together with VW, Audio etc. to weasel their way out of taking responsibility. the testing applied was stupid and lacking realism - but nonetheless they programmed software that detects a test and adjusts the motor's inner workings. that's beyond benefiting of stupidity - that is criminal. It feels great, great, great - I hope this will strengthen research and development for and of electric vehicles.

Angostura 9y ago

A correction to the headline; its only older diesels, not all diesels. From way down the article: > Cars that meet Euro-4 emissions standards could be banned from Stuttgart from next January, while Euro-5 vehicles should not be banned until Sept. 1, 2019, four years after the introduction of the latest Euro-6 standard. If you have a diesel with Ad Blu designed to catalytically remove NOx, you should be OK for now.

andrewla 9y ago

Can anyone more familiar with this case comment on what exactly happened here? It sounds like two private organizations, DUH (Deutsche Umwelthilfe) and ClientEarth, sued a couple of cities (Munich, Stuttgart, and Dusseldorf, possibly among others), saying they had to improve air quality. This was, apparently, on the basis that the cities had illegally high levels of NOx -- I'm not certain on what basis this was illegal, whether German or EU regulations. Munich offered a ban, which everyone was happy with. Stuttgart and Dusseldorf attempted to offer a mitigation strategy, and DUH and ClientEarth sued again saying that the mitigation was insufficient, and the judge ruled that they only a ban would suffice. The cities appealed, apparently on the basis that they were not legally allowed to impose such a ban(?) and now, a higher court has ruled that they are legally allowed to impose such a ban.

megy 9y ago
Great summary. This is so good to see, one of the advantages of living in Europe.

enothereska 9y ago

Wouldn't it be great if Tesla kicks these cheaters in the bin and wins the car race (like the iPhone did vs. the other phones)? Pity producing cars isn't as fast as manufacturing an iPhone. Germany's industry is in real trouble, looks like they were cheating.

megy 9y ago
What would be really great if we could get rid of cars all together, spend all that money on an awesome PT system, and convert 80% of roads into parks and other uses. Make suburbs actually nice places to live.
greglindahl 9y ago
iPhones are produced by contract manufacturers. That's not how the car business is organized: there's no existing contract manufacturer that can produce the Model 3 in high volume. They only exist for low-volume, high-end cars.