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Eldar Black Holes
- ThomPete 9y agoSince we are speculating here anyway. Could it be that these type III civilizations are simply consuming so much energy that that in itself becomes the black holes? The KARDASHEV Scale explained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k-Kuc9esDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k-Kuc9esDI
- jweissman 9y agoDefinitely an almost amusing overlap between different senses of “singularity”. Such civilizations might be like “simple germs”, their self-sustaining black hole vessels interacting and stirring things together; perhaps the cores of the most “interesting” galaxies are sentient, waiting for one femto-tech civ to arise from a trillion slime-ball planetoids — to make first Contact... The more general possibility of “intersecting” reality at right angles has been taken up in a few additional works I can think of: in Count to Infinity and Excession.
- hliyan 9y agoI don't think that's possible. Perhaps the singularity itself will survive a "Big Crunch", but I doubt anything between it and the event horizon will. And without the ability to survive the end of the universe, life is unlikely to emerge inside an orbit within a blackhole. Because of the time dilation, life will evolve there hundreds if not thousands of times slower compared to the rest of the universe. So the lifespan of the universe itself may be insufficient for life to form there.
- zmyrgel 9y agoBut if the black hole can survive the big bang, therefore it can exist longer that rest of the universe so it seems to have plenty of time to evolve anything.
- LoSboccacc 9y agoWonder if they also explored the possibility that we are in a black hole and the universe structure is recursive. Maybe the background radiation is the part of the hawking radiation that falls inward. And we perceive it infinite but it’s the dilatated space between the hevent horizon and the naked singularity at the center. And the big bang was the supernova that left the black hole. Trippinng!
- dlwdlw 9y agoI like this thought
- hliyan 9y agoThat's a very interesting idea! Although, if the cosmic background radiation is the hawking radiation falling back toward the event horizon, where is the residual radiation left behind by the supernova (because in the traditional interpretation, CMB the afterglow of the big bang).
- garmaine 9y agoWe are in a black hole. The event horizon of the entire universe is on the same order as the observable universe. We are inside the black hole of the universe.
- heavenlyblue 9y agoWhat?
- joshlemer 9y agoThe grandparent may be referring to the cosmic event horizon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon#Cosmic_event_horizon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon#Cosmic_event_hor...
- garmaine 9y agoYes-ish. There are two reasons we are living inside an event horizon. First the accelerating expansion of the universe means that light emitted from earth now will never reach most of the observable universe. We can look up and see galaxies that are already beyond our cone of influence. That is the primary effect. But a secondary effect is that the mass of the universe (Big Bang remains) is sufficient even though not dense as to bend light emitted from it back onto a closed trajectory. So if there is any void beyond the cosmos that we see , observers in that void would see us—our entire observable universe—as a black hole.
- grondilu 9y agoThere is a fascinating PBS Space Time video[1] about black holes that questions the very existence of whatever is "inside" a black hole. They point out that as you approach a black hole, your proper time is advancing slower and slower when compared to an observer located far away from the black hole (like us, on Earth). That means that from the point of view of this far observer, nothing happens inside a black hole until an infinite amount of time. In other words, what is inside a black hole is separated from us not by a space-like frontier, but a time-like one. Events behind the event horizon are postponed to "the end of times". Does it even make sense to say that those events exist, then? Are they any more real than fairy tales or mathematical equations? If not, we can make any speculation we want, including the existence of alien civilizations. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaEBbFbvcY
- garmaine 9y agoNo it doesn’t make sense. That explanation is privledging remote observers frames of reference to “explain” what happens in another frame of reference. That’s a violation of our modern understanding of physics.
- grondilu 9y agoIt's not "privileging" any thing in the sense that it does not claim one point of view is more valid than the other. It's just that one of these point of view is ours, and from this point of view, the other point of view does not correspond to any event that will actually happen, like ever. In other words, the "happening of events" is a relative concept. Just like simultaneity. Not only two events can happen at the same time or not depending on who is observing them, but the very happening of an event can also depend on who is observing (or not observing) it. That "happening of events" is very close to a definition one can give to the concept of reality. So one might conclude that reality is a relative concept.
- hliyan 9y agoI imagine this as time asymptotically slowing as you approach the singularity so that the singularity is forever stuck at the time of the supernova explosion that gave birth to it. You can never reach it because you and your movements too, slow down the closer you get. Is that correct?
- tziki 9y agoThis was a major theme in the 'three body problem' book series.
- gilbetron 9y agoGreat series, so depressing.
- kiliantics 9y agoThere's a similar civilisation in "Revelation Space" which I really recommend.
- pwaai 9y agowhat if our universe is expanding because there are other bubbles of universes that pull in all directions? what if Buddha was right in that there are thousand fold universe systems each with their own unique civilizations? If there are blackholes older than the universe itself, what if that suggested the universe was cyclical and that we may be in some gazillion-th iteration? what if big bang was just a universe eventually being consumed by a monstrous blackhole that collapses itself? What about the strange UFO occurences that pentagon acknowledged, are we getting visits from aliens within our universe or from another universe? Have they figured out how to travel between multi-verse, that is if you believe in it? No proof, no way to find these answers but it really makes me wonder, especially when particles behave strangely like being coupled regardless of distance...but how could Buddha have known that blackholes existed? https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/6o8zmg/the_buddha_mentioned_a_black_hole/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/6o8zmg/the_buddha... Anyways, just some things to ponder and gawk about...
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> no way to find these answers Yes there are. Answering such questions is why physicists are searching so hard for a unified micro/macro theory. Black holes are both quantum mechanical (at their singularities) and relativistic. > how could Buddha have known that blackholes existed? He didn’t.
- krapp 9y ago>What about the strange UFO occurences that pentagon acknowledged, are we getting visits from aliens within our universe or from another universe? The Pentagon has never acknowledged the existence of extraterrestrial craft, or of UFOs as being anything but hoaxes and misidentified, mundane phenomena. >but how could Buddha have known that blackholes existed? He didn't, any more than the Norse knew that wormholes existed when describing the Bifrost bridge or the World Tree. Reading modern scientific meaning into ancient religious ideas is a common way to attempt to validate religion, but doing so does a disservice both to the religion and to science. The Buddha may have had many insights, but none of them involved the relationship between spacetime and gravity.
- teraflop 9y agoGreg Egan has a short story called "The Planck Dive" about an expedition into a black hole. http://www.gregegan.net/PLANCK/Complete/Planck.html http://www.gregegan.net/PLANCK/Complete/Planck.html
- dghughes 9y agoFrom one of the article links, " aliens can live inside black holes." >They would also be brightly illuminated by the central singularity and by photons trapped in the same orbit. That sounds creepily like a typical description of heaven. Timeless, ageless, godlike beings all in a region of intense uniform brightness.
- jcadam 9y agoReminds me a bit of the old short story The Crystal Spheres. In that universe, once a civilization had attained a certain level of advancement, they intentionally migrated to a black hole to await the arrival of others (the idea being that all advanced civilizations in the universe were separated by so much time, that they suffered from a sort of loneliness). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Spheres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crystal_Spheres
- pavel_lishin 9y agoThere's another book whose name is on the tip of my tongue that has a similar premise, except the planet instead of the entire system is encased in a sort of time-dilation field. Naturally, humanity thinks it's an attack.
- zaphod12 9y agoI believe you're thinking of Spin by Robert Charles Winston. Really good book
- pavel_lishin 9y agoYup, thanks!
- solipsism 9y agoSounds like Spin by Robert Charles Wilson.
- pavel_lishin 9y agoYup, thanks!
- Balgair 9y agoThe BHs act like cosmic 'eggs', with civilizations acting like the 'sperm' then? Talk about first mover advantage!
- dave_sullivan 9y agoIf you're interested in this idea, you might also find the transcension hypothesis interesting: http://brighterbrains.org/articles/entry/the-transcension-hypothesis-an-intriguing-answer-to-the-fermi-paradox http://brighterbrains.org/articles/entry/the-transcension-hy...
- beached_whale 9y agoReminds me of the Golden Age Series book 3 The Golden Transcendence. Lost humans using the power of a black hole to power amazing things.
- imglorp 9y agoFredric Pohl scifi fans might enjoy Hechee Rendesvous, which is near the end of the Gateway series. Somone finds a way to live inside both Kugelblitzen and black holes I think.
- aagha 9y agoI've always wondered if for series like this one you can start somewhere in the middle or if you have to start from the beginning to have context.
- imglorp 9y agoHrm, Gateway you kinda need to read the first one at least. It lays out his universe of humans discovering an alien transport system with no instructions, and IMHO the novelty of that is the best part. In later books, they stumble around a little before (no big spoiler) getting a bunch of answers about the builders and finding them.
- bArray 9y agoWouldn't the aliens just need to wait for the black hole to evaporate in order to escape? We're talking a long time, but still possible? If it was planned just right, perhaps they could make it so they emerge in the new Universe. Also, isn't the assumption that there is a "big crunch" (also a good name for a cereal if it doesn't exist)? We're not sure whether there is a big crunch or heat death? This still seems plausible whether there is a big crunch or heat death - either way a black hole may be the only way for a civilization to stay alive at "the end".
- simonh 9y agoBeing emitted as undifferentiated Hawking radiation, after the black hole has shrunk to microscopic size, and when it finaly ceases to exist doesn't sound like much of a happy ending.
- bArray 9y agoWouldn't the black hole's horizon also shrink past a planet orbiting it as it loses mass?
- simonh 9y agoI don’t think it makes physical sense to talk about planets orbiting inside the event horizon. Black holes only shrink due to emitting Hawking radiation from the perspective of our frame of reference at a distance. We can consider the contents of the black hole to be undifferentiated mass/energy. From the perspective of a planet in that situation, that’s kind of meaningless as the process would take infinite subjective time.
- bArray 9y agoWell, near infinite time is ideal if you're trying to survive the death of the known Universe?
- tritium 9y agoIf the universe expands in a big bang, collapses in a big crunch, and then expands in another big bang, then it’s not a different universe. The black hole wouldn’t be older than the universe. The black hole is just older than the last, most recent big bang, and the big bang doesn’t explain anything anymore. It’s disproven as an event of creation. The big bang just becomes different parlance for turtles all the way down.
- duckwho 9y agoSounds the Void in starcraft.
- machinshin_ 9y ago> There was a second, unrelated paper that suggests that aliens can live inside black holes. [ ... snip ... ] > In theory, highly advanced aliens could live on such planets, being unobservable from outside while exploiting the high energies and large time dialtions available. reminds me of Frederick Pohl's Heechee Saga.
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