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Forging a Swiss Lens: How Zurich's tech scene changed my view of SV
- jotaen 9y agoServer seems crashed, that link works for me: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0W2gpfw2vT0J:https://nextrends.swissnexsanfrancisco.org/forging-a-swiss-lens-3-ways-zurich-changed-my-view-of-silicon-valley&num=1&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0W2gpfw...
- timewarrior 9y agoI have been involved with Swissnex and been advising Swiss startups for some time. I also go to Switzerland every other year if not every year and meet with startups there. Things I noticed: 1. Incredibly smart people. 2. Behind Silicon Valley on best technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. 3. Great work ethic and social responsibility. 4. Do not have world conquering ambitions - which kinda works against them. One of the founders was talking about an idea and was being very conservative with market size estimates. So I suggested to him - Think about how you can conquer the world. And his reply was - We are Swiss, we don't conquer the world. I think one of the biggest challenge for Switzerland tech scene is that there is no viable immigration path for a non-EU citizen. Even after decades, you might not get a citizenship [1]. It makes it difficult for them to attract talent from outside, especially those with Silicon Valley experience. Not that US is any better for Indians. Based on current estimates, if someone from India applies for an employment based Green Card now, they might get it in 70 years. And life is a pain because you have to do a lot of paperwork throughout. If there was a viable immigration path in Switzerland, I would move there tomorrow! 1. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/naturalisation-controversy_american-professor-denied-swiss-citizenship/41075124 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/naturalisation-controversy_amer...
- Voloskaya 9y ago> Do not have world conquering ambitions - which kinda works against them. Works against them towards what? Not wanting to conquer the world is legitimate, I don't see why everyone should absolutely want to become the next Bezos.
- whatshisface 9y agoSure, but if nobody in your country wants to conquer the world then the others will never reap the benefits of someone having conquered a piece of it.
- coldtea 9y agoNo, but they'll reap the benefits of being decent people.
- llukas 9y agoHow they'd reap the benefits if big corps and rich individuals do not pay their share of taxes? SF locals that are priced out of their city would have likely different opinion.
- whatshisface 9y agoYou have to strike a balance. If there's no personal ambition then there's no wealth to redistribute. If there's no fairness then one person takes everything and the whole thing stops. To that end, why shouldn't people fully invest themselves in their role? Expecting CEOs to manage social fairness would be a massive conflict of interest - so we should probably expect other people to keep tabs on that.
- quickthrower2 9y ago> Behind Silicon Valley on best technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. Can you elaborate on that? Are these "best practices" around technology or process? Are they found in books, or are the books out of date and you just have to 'be there' to discover them?
- timewarrior 9y agoI used to be in SF and in South Bay. Recently moved to Seattle , closely associated to the India and Swiss tech ecosystem. In my experience further away you are from SF, less cutting edge you are. In my experience even South Bay is 6 months behind SF. SF is a big melting pot, where a huge amount of talent are trying out new things and they are open to sharing their experiences - be it about latest technologies or latest customer acquisition strategies. Because of this, you find out about the latest strategies and associate advantages and disadvantages much earlier. By the time these strategies turn in blog posts and capture popular mind share - it takes months and years. Of course there are exceptions everywhere and some companies outside SF are great at being at cutting edge. However on an amortized basis, further away from SF you are, more likely you are to be behind the cutting edge.
- mathgladiator 9y agoThere is also a lot of hot air generated by SF that may be advantageous to ignore.
- timewarrior 9y agoMaybe choosing own network and use of own time wisely would help. Filter might be better vs ignore. If would rather be in a position where I can get potentially useful and useless information so that I can filter vs not having much information.
- Karrot_Kream 9y agoWhat does "cutting edge" mean? They don't use modern deployment startegies? They don't use recently popular web frameworks? "Cutting edge" is so vague it's not clear whether SV just cargo cults more or whether it's actually more technically innvovative.
- pkaye 9y ago> Not that US is any better for Indians. Based on current estimates, if someone from India applies for an employment based Green Card now, they might get it in 70 years. And life is a pain because you have to do a lot of paperwork throughout. I thought that is because so many Indians applying for green cards but there is a limit by country so it takes a long time?
- timewarrior 9y agoYes, that is one of the main factors. And the ground reality is that right now a new employment based Green Card petitioner from India would need to wait 70 years.
- propman 9y agoNeed to get this fixed. A bipartisan bill cosponsered by 340 house representatives is there but Paul Ryan is not allowing the vote on it. Perhaps not the limit fixed, but the backlog that's currently there for H1bs. It will be extremely beneficial for the country, for the H1bs and family, and would drive up tech wages. Literally no negatives. Their cause is even more sympathetic than DACA. I sincerely believe if they were protesting and more politically involved, they'd easily pass it through but no noise is being made. That's a good thing personally in my opinion since I'm turned off by protests and think that it divides us, and most protesters are very aggressive and bluntly not very bright. However, protests are very effective in American History in order to make change and if I were in their position I'd say that's the best bet. Some protests seem politically manufactured and arguments easily refuted, but movements like the civil rights movements and the American Disability Act would not have been possible without protests.
- untog 9y ago> Their cause is even more sympathetic than DACA. I wouldn't go that far. DACA recipients were brought to the country as children and literally know nothing else, often including the language of their "home" country. H1Bs might be more beneficial economically, but I'm not convinced they are more sympathetic.
- dwc 9y ago> We are Swiss, we don't conquer the world. I am curious what such Swiss people think of Nestlé, then. Or other companies and industries where Switzerland has a prominent global reputation? I would just chalk it up to personal preferences and motivations, but the statement as written suggests it's a Swiss thing in general.
- kzrdude 9y agoYou know, it's most likely said with a cheeky smile and a play on ones own stereotypes.
- bogomipz 9y ago>"I think one of the biggest challenge for Switzerland tech scene is that there is no viable immigration path for a non-EU citizen" This is not true. It's up to the local canton to grant citizenship[1]. It has noting to do with EU vs non-EU either. Switzerland itself is not actually part of the EU[2]. For someone who visits so often, it seems odd that you don't know that. In fact even in the video in your link says that the same committee that rejected this person's citizenship awarded it to a Turkish individual and Turkey is not part of the EU. >"Do not have world conquering ambitions" Yes in the majority of the world this is actually considered quite normal and acceptable. Many would even say "preferable." [1] https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/becoming-a-citizen/29288376 [2] https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-countries_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries/member-c...
- timewarrior 9y agoProbably I used the wrong word. Maybe a better word is no definitive path after getting permanent residency. It depends on the whim and fancy of the local canton. Most countries have a definitive path after getting permanent residency.
- microtherion 9y ago> It has noting to do with EU vs non-EU either. Switzerland has a treaty with the EU that gives EU citizens the right to live and work in Switzerland (and vice versa). For non-EU citizens, the situation is far less clear cut.
- bogomipz 9y agoYes understood, but the OPs claim was about citizenship no working and living in Switzerland. And Swiss citizenship has nothig to do with whether you are from an EU country or not.
- nextstep 9y agoOh HN, how is this the top comment on this fantastic blog post about the huge lifestyle drawbacks from living in SV? >> 2. Behind Silicon Valley on best technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. This was clearly written in earnest, but works better as a satirical joke about the inward-facing nature of bay area tech. Please explain what "best technology and product building practices" means here, and how you can quantify that over time. What were the best practices of early 2016 which are just now being implemented in Zurich-base startups?
- adventured 9y agoHow much experience do you personally have with Switzerland based start-ups? Serious question. The parent's comment is valuable because they actually have direct experience with the topic. It's being upvoted accordingly. Very few people on HN are likely to have direct experience with Swiss start-ups, further amplifying the value of the parent's input.
- jpatokal 9y agoThe parent's comment is valuable overall, but nextstep is quite correctly pointing out that that particular observation is phrased in absurd terms. You know how people joking referly to something that was a recent fad as being "so 2016"? That was two years ago. Are Swiss startups hopeless because they're still focused on "millennial engagement" (so 2016) instead of "viral learning" or "augmented reality talent management"? (Yes, this apparently is a thing.)
- timewarrior 9y agoNowhere did I say that Swiss startups are hopeless, either due to this reason or overall. This was a conclusion driven by nextstep and few others. And I think it was largely due to my mistake. I should have used "latest" where as I used "best". What I really meant was: >> 2. Behind Silicon Valley on latest technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. In fact I said that if it weren't for immigration uncertainty, I would move there tomorrow. Last year, I moved to Seattle from SF to experience a change of pace. So it's not that I have blind love for all things SF. SF has a lot more startups trying out things in a small geography. They are trying a lot more things and failing a lot more and consequently learning a lot more. There are benefits and drawbacks of not being the first mover. Many a times you do not waste time, effort and money going after dead end ideas (remember HomeJoy). Sometime it leads to missing out on things like AirBnb (especially relevant to as tourist driven economy as Switzerland). With lesser startups being formed, comparatively lesser capital available - Swiss ecosystem is trying to find it equilibrium. And as I originally mentioned - they are really smart people. They will figure out what is best for them. This thread was also a good learning for me. Every word matters. Sometimes, you try to sneak a post in between other work and things slip!
- timewarrior 9y agoI can't edit my previous comment anymore. The point 2 should have been: >> 2. Behind Silicon Valley on latest technology and product building practices by at least 2 years. I instead used the word "best" which doesn't really capture what I had meant. This thread also helped me develop a better understanding of my learnings.
- msd81257 9y agoHey all! Original author here. Seems like the server might be down. Bumping @jotaen's comment on the cached link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0W2gpfw2vT0J:https://nextrends.swissnexsanfrancisco.org/forging-a-swiss-lens-3-ways-zurich-changed-my-view-of-silicon-valley&num=1&strip=1&vwsrc=0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0W2gpfw... Thanks @jotaen!!! Really appreciate it.
- romanovcode 9y agoHey, but at least you get paid more in U.S., right?
- electricslpnsld 9y agoZurich pay can eclipse Valley pay. I have friends who went to ETH for grad school and were getting close to 100k CHF a year. This is grad school -- the pay goes up from there.
- _nalply 9y agoThis is true. I know someone who works as a dev for CHF 150k+ in Bern, and Zurich has even higher levels of salary.
- rconti 9y agoGetting paid while in grad school? Or you're saying the pay goes up as you go from graduate degree to Ph.D?
- hobo_mark 9y agoYes (both).
- rconti 9y agoNice. Working in Europe is definitely on my list for the next handful of years.. just need to figure out how to make the move (have EU citizenship, just a matter of making the jump)
- shafyy 9y agoGetting paid while in grad school. As a grad student at ETH, depending on your department, you'll earn anything from $60k - $100k (ballpark).
- chrisseaton 9y agoIf you aren't getting paid to be in grad school, then that was a hint that they didn't really want to take you. Any reputable grad school place will be paying you.
- fuzzieozzie 9y agoThat lifestyle is possible in SV too .. it's a matter of how you choose priorities. At www.compilerworks.com we are purposefully bootstrapped to enable a high quality lifestyle (there are 3 of us in the Bay Area and 5 internationally).
- rconti 9y agoI've worked a number of tech jobs in the valley, and while the expected work hours aren't exactly European, I can't really think of a time where I worked weekends other than being on call perhaps 1 week in 4 or 5, and I find the work hours quite regular. Then again, I'm not exactly a game developer.
- nextstep 9y agoI can work in SV and use great, reliable public transportation to get everywhere I want in my life, often in under an hour? And I can have 5 weeks paid vacation per year? I wasn't able to find these things when I lived there...
- fuzzieozzie 9y agoIt exists -- but it is not the norm, especially in VC backed companies. VC demand returns, and prefer to see $100 today compared with $100 in a year's time!
- refurb 9y agoI agree with the public transport, but I live in SV and get 23 days of paid vacation plus 13 stat holidays.
- kgwgk 9y ago> My nationality hampered my ability to obtain medical treatment Why?
- chrisper 9y agoBecause of this: https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/medizin-und-psychologie/Das-Unispital-fuerchtet-sich-vor-Amerikanern/story/25955864 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wissen/medizin-und-psychologie/... (Sorry it is in German, but here is a translation https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesanzeiger.ch%2Fwissen%2Fmedizin-und-psychologie%2FDas-Unispital-fuerchtet-sich-vor-Amerikanern%2Fstory%2F25955864 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u... ) TL;DR: They do not do it because they are afraid of getting sued by Americans.
- kgwgk 9y agoThanks. But it’s not as bad as I feared: it’s a particular hospital in Zurich and it applies only to non-residents and elective procedures. Don’t worry, US tourists, if you get sick even the University Hospital of Zurich will take care of you!
- samfriedman 9y agoWhen I worked in Zurich for a few months as an American student, I got pretty sick with mono. I went to an urgent care clinic, had multiple blood tests done, medication prescribed, and about a half hour consultation with a doctor (not to mention nurses). Walked out with about a $100 bill. Blew my mind.
- fludlight 9y ago> Assigned laundry days are commonplace...My laundry would be done on Friday night at 6. This seems efficient but also very off-putting.
- _nalply 9y agoUsually Swiss people find a way around this limitation. Swap laundry time slots with neighbours, for example.
- danielvinson 9y agoI don't understand why would there be a time slot in the first place... do people not own their own laundry machines in Switzerland?
- joe3774 9y agoPeople who own houses and apartments usually do but rented places often have shared laundries. In newer buildings every apartment has its own laundry.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 9y agoIt's pretty common to have a shared machine in the basement. If you're lucky, it's on the -2 sublevel somewhere in a nuke shelter (yes, literally) and nobody cares whether you use it at 3 am on a Sunday.
- MagnumOpus 9y agoPeople in small apartments usually don't, people in houses always do - this is the same in the US though.
- _nalply 9y agoI think it also depends where you live in Switzerland. From foreigners complaining about it I deduct that Zurich tends to be relatively strict. Where I live (Espace Mittelland) this is a non-problem.
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- derriz 9y agoThe point that public transport can be more efficient than private does not necessarily reflect public investment although the Swiss do invest in subsidizing transport infrastructure. But what's suprising is that much of the public transport system is owned and operated by private (profit-motivated) companies. I think there are about 10 different companies operating what looks like a unified public transport system in Zürich for example. But you'd never know this because of the integrated ticketing. Healthcare is very similar - a blend of private (mostly) and public provision but with government regulated insurance market. However it's not exactly efficient - I think an exceptional proportion of national income is spent on health care (i.e. close to US levels and way higher than European norms) even if it doesn't appear on your insurance bill every month. But yes I love that "adjustable work schedules" are the norm here and I think Switzerland is fairly exceptional from what I know in that regard. I work 80% (4 days a week) as do some other collegues and there is no perception that this indicates a lack of dedication to the start-up or that we should be considered less than committed. It's difficult to describe how much this has improved my lifestyle.
- microtherion 9y ago> I think there are about 10 different companies operating what looks like a unified public transport system in Zürich for example. Yes, there are different companies, and many of them are nominally organized as corporations, but I can't think of any of them that are for-profit, and pretty much all of them are state owned. > I think an exceptional proportion of national income is spent on health care True, Swiss per capita health care spending is roughly midway between the US and European countries like Germany and France. But in terms of availability and outcomes, the Swiss system is outstanding. I'm sure you find Swiss who would trade health care systems with Germany and France. But I doubt that anyone who has experienced both systems would trade with the US.
- skrebbel 9y ago> But yes I love that "adjustable work schedules" are the norm here and I think Switzerland is fairly exceptional from what I know in that regard. Yeah it's cool. It's becoming increasingly common in the Netherlands. It has been common for moms for a long time (somehow it's nearly always the women who work less when they get kids, we're bafflingly traditional that way), but it's slowly beginning to be acceptable elsewhere too. 7 years ago when I worked at a software agency, a colleague who became dad wanted to go to 80%. His bosses wouldn't take it and he actually ended up handing in his resignation before our they realized he was serious. They ended up offering him the job at 80% btw. Now, the same agency has ike 10% of the workforce at 80%. That's a pretty big culture change in relatively little time.
- matttproud 9y agoZürich > Silicon Valley or San Francisco (esp. if you have a family) Zürich is a great place to work, live, and relax. The people here are also stupendously awesome.
- workthrowaway27 9y agoHow easily can a US citizen find work there?
- joe3774 9y agoYou can get a work visa if a Swiss company wants to hire you for a special skill or expertise you have. The easier way is probably to start working for a Swiss company in the US and then let you relocate to Switzerland still working for that company.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoIs is still hard for US citizens to get bank accounts?
- microtherion 9y agoIt's not really about US citizenship. It's about being subject to US taxation. The IRS has a rather more generous definition of whether you are a "US person" than the INS does. That said, if you are a legal resident in Switzerland, you should be able to find banking here. If you just step off the plane with a suitcase full of money and walk into a bank, though — I would recommend making it a LARGE suitcase.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 9y agoAFAIK it's still significantly more annoying than for non-Us persons, but not insurmountable.
- chrisper 9y agoFWIW I am not a US citizen but had to fill out an IRS tax form as well when getting a bank account in Switzerland since I was living in the US for 5 years.
- dekhn 9y agoI worked for a major biotech company in Silicon Valley that was part-owned, then later fully-owned, by a large Swiss pharmaceutical company. Well, it wasn't really a pharma company so many as a collection of wealthy Swiss families that maintained cross-investments in each other's pharma companies because it was a profitable sector. But I digress. Anyway, every year, the Swiss would send their top IT people to come look at our IT systems, and ask us questions about how we did things. What software we ran, how we administrated it, etc. They generally thought we were quite lazy and lax; noting that our sysadmins were from a wide collection of countries, one commented "At Roche, we only hire Swiss citizens to administer the SAP servers." Later, Roche bought Genentech because it was far more profitable than any other investment Roche could make, and they generally adopted Genentech's approach to IT throughout the larger company. Pretty sure the SAP servers are still administered by Swiss citizens.
- biztos 9y ago> "At Roche, we only hire Swiss citizens to administer the SAP servers." Ex-Genentecher here too, and that quote really surprises me. Maybe it got that way later, but when I went to Basel in '95 to do some work I found a very international team. Granted, there were probably more Swiss among the IT guys than the Pharma people but it was by no means all-Swiss. The office language was English but the techies spoke a lot of German (and occasionally Swiss German) among themselves. My impression was not speaking German would be a disadvantage for IT, but I definitely did not feel like anybody was discriminating against the non-Swiss. (I speak German but not Swiss German.) I wonder if it changed that much, or if you just met some difficult people.
- dekhn 9y agoThe SAP servers were considered a bit more core to the company's security, I think. It's fair to say if there was an exception to that exec's claimed rule, it would be Germans.
- aetherson 9y agoY'know, I once was talking to a hiring manager about my potential job. He said something about working 10 hour days and often working weekends. I said, "Great, I don't think this job is for me. I hope you guys do well!" And then I got another job, and I work 8 (maybe sometimes more like 8.5) hour days and no weekends. Outside of genuine "we're on fire" operational catastrophes, which happen like once or twice a year. I live and work in SF.
- m_mueller 9y agoAs a Swiss I think you got a healthy attitude. Many Americans seem to think that they have no power over what's forced up them in the workplace. You're selling a valuable, sought after and potentially unique good - your expertise. Don't let BigCorp trample all over you, they need you. Employee retention rate is a very important metric for any good company - if they don't care about that it's a big red flag for any potential employee. In fact, IMO governments should publicly list retention rates of all employers.
- aetherson 9y agoI have a lot of sympathy for the idea that this isn't always true. Amazon's warehouse workers may just not have enough bargaining power to avoid long hours. Walmart's employees likewise. But software engineers in the bay area are uniquely sought-after and well-compensated individuals in a red-hot market. If you don't want to work long hours, you don't have to, folks. You just have to put that onto the list of things you're willing to negotiate about (even if you only negotiate by looking for another job).
- m_mueller 9y agoYes, the bulk of increasingly automatable jobs that require weeks of training at best are a very different issue. A capitalist system without UBI will look like a very bleak dystopia soon.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]