18 ms·

In-N-Out managers earn triple the industry average

280 points by ohjeez 9y ago

dpeck 9y ago
They’re run head and shoulders above every other fast food restaurant, maybe the secret is paying employees enough to make that happen? edit: changed management to employees to capture more generally.
- dv_dt 9y ago
  Maybe the secret is paying _everyone_ enough the make that happen. There's also a lot to be said for providing clean paths to climb the ladder by hiring internally (but that's made viable by paying well to provide good stability and mentoring at all levels...). Then you end up with inherently informed and connected management.
- lozaning 9y ago
  I think part of it is also that the restaurants are owned by In-N-Out, not franchised.
  - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
    It's amazing how different a franchised versus company owned restaurant can be. When I worked at a franchised McDonald's as a teenager we were all jealous of the corporate McDonald's a few miles down the road as they had better pay, benefits, uniforms and everything just looked way cleaner there. At my franchised McDonald's we were told to do the bare minimum for _every single thing_ we did. I'm curious if there is any data on franchised versus non franchised restaurants and if there is a way to objectively compare them.
    - Rapzid 9y ago
      I had a slightly different experience. In high school my first job was corporate Mackers in a Walmart. At 15 I was somehow the second most responsible person working there.. After high school I did another stint at a franchise location. The owner had an ace manager in there to "turn around" the store. Everything was ship shape and above board; top rating on store review was the expectation. As committed as everyone was the one thing I would have seriously cracked down on was... Wait for it... Pulling the fries out early. A couple of the managers didn't have the stomach for waiting the full time when cars were stacked up. They were mistakenly prioritizing the service time (which is usually sacred TBH!) over the quality of the french fries. This is a huge mistake and Mcdonalds has very tight lifetime limits on fries for a reason; aint nobody wants undercooked or stale fries. I always dropped my own fries for my free meal, and would often invite people in to purchase fries while I was there so they could be done right. A 1/2, or ideally 1/4, basket cooks the best and most evenly at the McDonalds prescribed cooking times IMHO. Full baskets without a cooking time adjustment would result in fries that are not quite so cooked properly.
      - koolba 9y ago
        Is “Mackers” McDonalds? I’ve never heard that nickname before. We mainly use “Mickey Dees”.
        Rapzid 9y ago
        I did a stint in New Zealand; picked up some of the slang :)
        Nition 9y ago
        For the record in NZ although we do say that, we usually spell it 'Maccas'.
        Rapzid 9y ago
        Spelling was never my strong suite ;) Nor was avoiding picking up slang in NZ that was later pointed out to me to be racial slurs :| Nobody ever told me about ol' uncle Rangi!
        inferiorhuman 9y ago
        Yeah but with the accent it's probably spelt Mackers.
      - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
        The timing for the drive through made our life very difficult at the McDonald's I worked at. Managers would frequently clear orders not yet finished off of the screen just so the system registered a faster time completed. We would then have to carry around the receipt to try and figure out what the person ordered. In the worst of cases we'd have to pass the receipt to the grill area to get food made. All of our drive through times were complete bullshit because of this. Even during slow times where we'd have just a car every few minutes managers would IMMEDIATELY clear them off as they just need to "remember" the order. Which, as you can guess, increased wrong order complaints but those are also not sent to corporate so they never cared.
    - koolba 9y ago
      Is there a way to check whether a given McD is corporate or franchise? The McD by our house growing up was amazing. Even as a teen I remember it being well run. As an adult I moved to a different city and the local McD was the worst I’ve ever seen. That includes highway service area stores. Be curious to confirm my suspicions as to which is corporate.
      - Viper007Bond 9y ago
        There's usually a sign somewhere inside the restaurant.
      - greedo 9y ago
        YMMV, but when the franchise I worked at was extremely well run, and compared to a corporate store, far better. I used to be able to walk into a McDs and tell within a minute or two if they were franchise or McOpCo. The McOpCo stores were always dirty, understaffed, and had really demoralized employees.
      - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
        Back in the day the corporate McDonald's had a different uniform that was almost sorta suit like. Today they might be all the same, not sure, but you can probably contact them and ask.
    - prostoalex 9y ago
      For one thing, it enables careers instead of just jobs - In'n'Out employees are promoted all the way up the corporate chain, moved to launch new locations, and generally signals to employees that if they want to spend next 40 years working for the company, they will not be seen as failures by their peers, parents, significant others, children and people at high school reunion. With franchised restaurants the promotion ladder looks like employee -> manager -> dead-end.
- ghaff 9y ago
  There are a number of good chains in that category. Shake Shack, Five Guys. But In-N-Out is pretty good. I suspect it's a category that rewards quality/consistency and isn't just a race to the bottom like the truly mass market fast food chains are.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  Agreed. They are my least favorite burgers and fries but the service is absolutely incredible. Every single person I have EVER dealt with is very professional and polite. I have never seen another restaurant with employees like that. It's often compared to Five Guys but the vast majority of Five Guys I've been in have employees that don't really seem to care.
  - dpeck 9y ago
    Yeah, in my experience Five Guys doesn't really compare. They're run well but nothing exceptional.
  - brandall10 9y ago
    Five Guys isn't fast food in the traditional sense - a basic cheeseburger/fries/drink is over $15 out here in southern California, whereas the same at In-N-Out is $6. But in that market we do have Burger Lounge which goes well beyond In-N-Out's service level. We also have Luna Grill for Mediterranean, similar excellence in service and quality of food.
    - dubyah 9y ago
      In-N-Out is fast food. Five Guys and all the other restaurants you've mentioned fall under fast casual.
      - dawnerd 9y ago
        I’ve never had a fast trip to an In-N-Out. Lines are always really long. Quality of their food has gone down hill over the years as they’ve tried to keep up. While it’s not even close to my fave I’d still shove an animal double double down my face so fast...
        dubyah 9y ago
        They are immensely popular. But drive-thrus are still at the core of their service ever since the first location which was drive-thru only. That's one of many things that can't be said of any of their upscale competitors, hence the fast food vs fast casual.
- pxeboot 9y ago
  I have seen signs advertising $15/hour starting wages for their Bay Area restaurants. Not exactly great pay considering the cost of living.
- b4lancesh33t 9y ago
  It's hard to separate causality here. Maybe they can afford to pay people a lot because they make a lot of money, and maybe they make a lot of money because people like their menus and ingredients.
- wedaugtwo 9y ago
  Or could it be that with such high salaries, they can be extremely picky? Almost like a, "we only hire the best."
bluthru 9y ago
>A typical architect in California earns about $112,000 a year, according to the jobs site Indeed. That's because software architects are wrapped up with building architects on Indeed. Building architects make much less: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/architect-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/architect-salary-SRCH_KO0... (Which is partially why I left.)
- asr 9y ago
  The salary comparisons are also hurt by the fact that "architect" and "lawyer" are titles you have your entire career, while "restaurant manager" is a title only one person in the restaurant has. If you compared the salary of an in-n-out manager to the engineer running the team, or to law firm partners, you'd get a different conclusion. The fact that someone who's worked for a good chunk of their life at an In-N-Out makes more than a young professional fresh out of school seems pretty reasonable, when you think about it. (Although it still makes In-N-Out an exception, which is too bad.)
  - aphextron 9y ago
    >The fact that someone who's worked for a good chunk of their life at an In-N-Out makes more than a young professional fresh out of school seems pretty reasonable, when you think about it. (Although it still makes In-N-Out an exception, which is too bad.) With almost certainly far more hours worked to make that salary, as well. Most fast food managers are spending 60+ hours/week in the store, opening early and closing late at night. All to make a decent living wage in California. I would not envy that life one bit.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Architechts, except Landscape and Naval (which also excludes Software Architects, which are in a completely different high-level category) make a median salary of $95,070 in California (about halfway between your Glassdoor info and what the article has from Indeed), per the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has much more complete data than either Indeed or Glassdoor. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes171011.htm#st https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes171011.htm#st
joe5150 9y ago
Though the In-N-Out where I live has seemed at times understaffed, most of the employees who work there have been there at least as long as I've lived here (over five years now), which has to be anomalous in fast food.
- ohjeez 9y ago
  I suppose it helps that they're paid a living wage!
  - joe5150 9y ago
    I would wager that's the biggest single factor
    - exabrial 9y ago
      +1 for the pun
jxramos 9y ago
This is accurate, my old childhood buddy worked through In-N-Out for something like 7 or 8 years before and through college told me several years ago that managers make great cash and the whole In-N-Out ecosystem is really top notch in their employee dynamics.
jacobkg 9y ago
Does anyone know if they hire store managers from outside or whether they have to rise up through the ranks?
- natecavanaugh 9y ago
  I can't say for sure, but I would strongly imagine that they would want any managers they hire to be intimately familiar with the culture. So I could see that even if they did hire externally, the applicant would need to train through one or a few different jobs and become acclimated with their way of doing things. But I'm seriously only guessing from what I've seen of companies with really strong company cultures.
ucaetano 9y ago
I once did a quick "anthropological" study with In-N-Out employees (read: fancyspeak for sitting down and talking to them about their job), I was quite surprised. Most of them were very happy with their jobs, not just happy with pay and benefits and so on, but happy to work there. They found it a very welcoming and friendly work environment, where people were rewarded for initiative and trying to improve things. Most of them didn't see themselves leaving the company any time soon, unless it was for a different job type (such as moving to an office job after finishing school). It was a very good lesson on how job satisfaction doesn't need fancy cafés, ball pits and slides. PS: Those were just my impressions from talking to a limited number of employees. Endless numbers of caveats apply.
- Rapzid 9y ago
  I used to work at top graded Mackers (Mcdonald's reviews their stores and grades them) with a really awesome store manager and some great (took their jobs and quality very seriously) managers. The experience was great and really enjoyable. Unfortunately, the pay was just above minimum wage and the long term prospects were terrible. I can totally see how these guys/gals would be loyal and sticky if taken care of. Hard work you can leave at the door is very satisfying if you don't feel like you're going nowhere... Incidentally the 3x average sounds almost spot on; I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area.
  - throwawayjava 9y ago
    > I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area. A nice reminder about the difference in meanings when the owner says "value" and when the employee says "value"
    - b4lancesh33t 9y ago
      I don't understand what criticism you're trying to level here. Would you please expand?
whoisjuan 9y ago
Hmmm. Is this true? Seems like the ideal way to get a disgruntled front line... You're in a service industry, making 30k a year - 15/hour as a cashier (regardless if you're getting any extra benefits) and your direct superior makes 160k? I don't know, but I can't imagine a scenario where people don't get pissed-off with such a massive difference for two jobs that are performed on the same location, imply interactions with the same people and are only one command-chain level apart.
- jsloss 9y ago
  Store managers most likely aren’t the front line’s direct supervisor. And the gap between roles as far as responsibility would be high. I would expect very high standards and tough to reach goals would make being a store manager a challenging role to succeed at.
- nurettin 9y ago
  I don't know, looks like the ultimate carrot and stick to me.
- jonknee 9y ago
  On the other hand I could see people enjoying having a competent and motivated boss.
- joe5150 9y ago
  There will be shift and assistant managers between a cashier and the store manager, I'd assume.
Judgmentality 9y ago
I realize this is the exception and not the rule, but it's great to see that fast food chains can make incredible profits while paying their employees significantly more than the competition. There are so many restaurateurs and investors claiming it's impossible for the fast food industry to survive the $15 minimum wage hike, but I suspect it will just make this already cut-throat space even more prone to failure.
- hueving 9y ago
  In-N-Out truly seems to be in a league of its own. The one I frequented in Mountain View would consistently have a line through off hours. I would show up midnight and still have to wait. Meanwhile, the Jack in the Box just down the street usually had about 3 cars in the lot, one for each employee. It's very possible that $15/hr could kill a lot of less popular fast food restaurants, particularly in more isolated areas.
  - briandear 9y ago
    The market at work! Make a shit product and get driven out of the market or be forced to up to game. Ultimately that means better pay and better products. (Since the two go hand in hand when it comes to service-driven businesses — In and Out is a case in point.)
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > Make a shit product and get driven out of the market or be forced to up to game. The problem is when you have a fastfood restaurant in a run down part of the town where people may have money for a $1 cheeseburger but not for a $2 cheeseburger.
    - hueving 9y ago
      Better pay for those lucky enough to work at the remaining 10% of restaurants. Not good for the remainder of employees.
Larrikin 9y ago
What I found interesting in Japan, was it seems like employees working in the larger fast food chains had a pretty much guaranteed track to the corporate office if they were willing to put in the time working at the store and had credentials to match. Usually the employees are part time with no desire to climb up, but I met few people who worked at McDs or KFC during college and had a job offer or atleast an interview waiting at the end of it in the corporate office. One guy I talked to was told that he had to put in a full year to be considered for interviews in the next graduating class, so he worked at McDs after college so he could interview the next year. Do the chains in the US offer similar tracks? Does experience at the chain translate well to getting hired in the corporate offices? Seems like an easy way incentivize college students and graduates to work at a chain and actually take it seriously. I worked at a McDs as my first job, years ago and I still see a lot of the same faces when I go back home. Even when I was there one of the managers was complaining that after 10 years she was told she couldn't get her normal yearly raise because she was "making too much money already" according to the owner. Corporate could and should pay for/partially pay for college for managers without an education as a perk for high performers.
callumprentice 9y ago
Another business that had well paid store managers is Trader Joe’s - I believe they also make something towards $160K in total comp. Also a place filled with happy, helpful people. Almost like there is a connection between a good package and happy employees.
phasetransition 9y ago
Chik Fil A owner operators also comfortably in this realm of income. Both companies get a lot of the same things right for customer and employees. P.S. If you get put down as a reference for a potential hire at Chik Fil A corporate, don't be surprised to find yourself in a 45+ minute discussion about the hire. They take vetting seriously.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bpicolo 9y ago
  I don't think comparing franchise ownership with managers is a particularly fair place yeah? You have to put like a million in capital down at a minimum to open something like a chick fil a.
  - seanalltogether 9y ago
    Chick-fil-a famously requires $10,000 to become a franchise "operator", but they require a heavy investment in time and energy and can be revoked at will. I think it's more appropriate to compare a chick-fil-a operator with an in-and-out manager, than it is to compare them to a mcd franchise owner.
    - phasetransition 9y ago
      About a decade ago a friend applied to become an owner-operator at Chik Fil A. He had years of experience managing multiple car washes, and a letter of recommendation from someone at corporate. He made it from the initial multiple thousands of applicants to the second round of 500. Corporate told him to go work for 12+ months behind the counter in a Chik Fil A and then re-apply. They had you rank your store location choices, and you moved where they told you to, if you were selected. I forget how many stores they were going to open a year, but I want to say it was around 100 back then.
habosa 9y ago
I always notice there are a TON of people working at every In N Out. Like maybe 10 people behind the counter versus 3 at a McDonalds. Anyone know what's up with that?
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  It's called the drive thru is always stacked with cars.
- toast0 9y ago
  McDonald's has been investing in labor saving (including automation). A robot pours the drinks for the drive thru, they've got the combo ketchup and mustard things; and a lot of the food is prepped off-site. In-N-Out tends to be higher volume than the MacDonald's around me; but they also are cutting potatoes just in time, and hand assembling burgers.
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    I wouldn’t exactly call what McDonald’s has a robot. It’s just a button that turns off the street after so long. Been using them for at least 10 years now too. But I get what you’re saying. They just updated the McDonald’s near me to be primarily touch screen ordering yet somehow they still take forever to essentially assemble pre cooked food. I don’t get it...
    - toast0 9y ago
      They've got new robots since last year ish; it pulls a cup, puts in ice, and fills with soda. Here's a video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akv4vSXa5a4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akv4vSXa5a4 In this video, a human is waiting around for it, but what I've seen as a customer is the machine usually runs unsupervised while the drive thru person chases after the food orders.
- dboreham 9y ago
  >Anyone know what's up with that? Volume.
jitix 9y ago
I think the interesting point here is that the company is private and doesn't have to maximize short term profits for shareholder gains. From my own experience I've seen that a private/bootstrapped company has much more flexibility to think long term (and that usually means keeping employees happy) than a public company. On the other hand the stock market drives a lot of important things like pension funds, mutual funds, etc. Maybe we can strike a balance and trade shares based on their long term dividend potential.
- hueving 9y ago
  AMZN is entirely focused on long term gains and reinvesting money and the stock is killing it. Being publicly traded != making short term decisions.
xbeta 9y ago
> If other fast food establishments have been reluctant to raise wages, Jayaraman added, it’s because pressure from investors has elevated quarterly gains above the potential long-term benefits of happy workers. In-N-Out has no public shareholders. Well, that's a reason why I think lots of startups these days opt for a much later public offering. Public investors are just very short-sighted on making a smart financial investment decision. Can't blame them, we are all been told using number (or some measurable metrics) to evaluate any businesses without even understanding what does the business do.
- chii 9y ago
  > using number (or some measurable metrics) to evaluate any businesses without even understanding what does the business do. if those metrics are any good, why won't those metrics be higher for those companies that put long term gains (e.g., happy workforce) a priority? Those metrics that show good numbers for short term gains are bad metrics, and the shareholders who like them are likely to want to cash out before the 'long term' hits, and therefore, use those metrics to justify their decisions.
  - xbeta 9y ago
    Unless there's an agreed methodology on how to measure that "happiness" in the workforce with good science backing it, then sure. But for so many years, I think human never reach that consensus.
    - chii 9y ago
      i would've thought the most obvious, and most agree-able method is to simply ask the yes/no question- 'are you happy at this job?'.
      - xbeta 9y ago
        Sure, but I don't think human is very good at judging his/her own emotion on a simple yes/no question on happiness. :-)
mc32 9y ago
That they can pay hourlies (as well as the highlighted managers) well above industry average and still manage to make a profit undercuts the argument that companies in the service industry need _cheap_ labor to survive. It's the companies who want to milk dry the American worker who cry wolf at the thought of having to pay Americans a decent wage. There are millions of people who have left the labor force because their wages have been undercut. I think there is a significant pool of willing workers willing to work for the right wages --they may need some assistance in getting back to being productive workers, but I think industry owes them that after decades of neoliberal policies outsourcing and shipping jobs overseas.
- perfectstorm 9y ago
  + 1. I love In-N-Out. Their burgers are cheap and the ingredients are fresh. I can have a burger with fries for <$5. Hard to beat that price in SF.
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    It's good until you've had Shake Shack or Steak n Shake. Both have much tastier burgers IMO. In-N-Out is fine, and I don't have a problem with them, but I'm also not over the moon about it and truly don't understand the 30-minute drive-through lines at their locations. More power to 'em, I suppose, but it's really just a super-basic burger done fairly well for a good price.
    - gknoy 9y ago
      I've enjoyed burgers at the Habit, and at Five Guys, and I still love In-N-Out. It's even possible that 5 Guys or the Habit have tastier burgers. However, In-n-out burgers are almost half the price, and the drive through service makes me genuinely pleased every time I go. Best drive through process I've ever seen -- people taking your order before you get to the speakers, a window to take your money, a window to give you food, and every post staffed by cheerful, helpful people. I've even taken the time to find their website and say, "wow, I'm impressed by the good service I've seen here, there, everywhere", which is something I can't usually be bothered to do for any other restaurant. I'm not sure how much of my enjoyment of them is due to nostalgia, consistently excellent service, or maybe a pareto optimal price-vs-taste point? ;)
mrarjen 9y ago
Welcome to the world where we talk about the company giving their employees a proper salary and benefits, because every other company of it's kind is unlikely to do so. Let's hope more companies follow eventually. I heard good things of In-N-Out and ill likely visit one one day when I'm ever back in the states.
- hueving 9y ago
  What is a 'proper' salary? Also, the very reason this is news is because it's 3x the average. If all of the restaurants paid the same it would just be the average and not worth an article.
  - mrarjen 9y ago
    A proper salary is one where the workers can live their lives without worries about money or having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet. And 3 times the average for this kind of work in a place where 2 times the amount is the normal average is kind of crazy. And this should indeed not be an article to begin with but it is.
    - hueving 9y ago
      >A proper salary is one where the workers can live their lives without worries about money or having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet. That's lacking enough concrete details to be meaningful. It seems to be 'more than they'll ever need' to meet the criteria of not needing to worry about money. Do you think one of these managers could live in San Francisco without worrying about money? 20k/annum is enough for someone who owns a house and lives in a low COL area to not worry about money. (one of my friends lives like that and appears to be happier than I) 300k/annum is not enough for a family of 4 living next to Central Park in NYC. There is no way to decide that people are making a living wage without a centralized definition of living, which most people will disagree with.
      - mrarjen 9y ago
        I do think one of these managers could live in certain area's in SF without much worries. But I agree if you will live in a 30 million mansion with a view over the city, you won't have enough as a manager.
jedberg 9y ago
My understanding from folks who work there is that it's basically impossible to get a job there unless you know someone who already works there and can vouch for you. As in, they won't even interview you without a recommendation from a current employee. I guess this helps them maintain quality hires.
baby 9y ago
My 2 cents: 1. in-n-out is amazing. It is my favorite mcdonalds-type burger. It's simple (only one burger on the menu, with or without cheese), it's fresh and it's cheap. In addition, employees are always nice to you. I wish it was in Europe. 2. I worked at McDonald in France, got minimum wage. I got out quickly but some friends stayed for quite a long time (3 years). The main reason is because they promote you quickly. Everybody hates the job (unless you're staying for a few months only, then it's fun) but everybody gets trapped by the constant promotion system. The trick is that promotions don't necessarily increase your salary, or if they do then it's peanuts. Even the director of my restaurant (not a franchise) was paid peanuts. 3. Working in a fast food can be fun! people don't expect that, but I always recommend people to try it. There is definitely a pleasure in manual labor, an instant gratification that you don't necessarily get in intellectual-type jobs.
no_wizard 9y ago
I personally believe this has much to do with with two things. 1) In-n-out is not public. At all. So they don’t have to answer to the pressure of Wall Street and it’s sharks or get a huge stake taken by a hedge fund or Any of those other external pressures of that nature. 2) they’re still majority family owned and the guy who founded it reallly believed in taking great care of his workers
- justherefortart 9y ago
  So you either didn't rtfa or you're simply reposting what it said here. What's the point?
- bedhead 9y ago
  I have a slight quibble with the first point, though I generally agree. There are public companies out there that simply don't care about Wall St, and are run like they're private. It requires an admittedly rare combination of founder controlled/involved, no need to raise capital, strong business model, and unique culture. Think about Amazon, who have given the capital markets the biggest middle finger of all time, refusing to show a single dollar of profit because they believe the reinvestment opportunities are too great (I would strongly agree). There's an agricultural company called Seaboard Corp that's public. Its's a $5 billion market cap company controlled by the founding family. There are no analysts covering it, they've never once held a conference call, they don't give guidance, etc. The stock is near its all-time high and has returned a staggering 22% annually since 2000. Sure, these are rare, but the market is pretty efficient about this stuff over time. So it's possible, and I bet it would be possible for In-N-Out as well. But it would probably still be viewed as a hassle, and if no one in the family needs liquidity to buy a super-yacht, or pay a massive divorce settlement, or buy an NBA team, there's no point.
  - w0m 9y ago
    Amazon is an interesting example. Yes, they grossly reinvest rather than pay dividends, but they don't invest in employee pay/compensation directly ('wastes' as per common view of what wall street wants)
gpapilion 9y ago
This is not an atypical salary for yum brands managers in the Bay Area. I wonder how much of this is being a primarily California chain.
- gebeeson 9y ago
  I've thought this as well - location might play into all of this as well. I live in a relatively small county in southeast Georgia and all of the fast food joints here start great but end up abysmal simply due to the caliber of people that are working there. Pay? Location? Manager? Over all framework with all of the above applied as cause? Not sure. Recently several places here (Waffle House and Burger King) are super short staffed because they simply cannot find anyone to fill the positions with the pay advertised. That kind of thing here is becoming more of a problem.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ainiriand 9y ago
Here is the key: 'In-N-Out has no public shareholders'. Stay away from Wall Street sharks and the urge to give increasingly bigger profits every year vanishes.
scelerat 9y ago
I've been eating at In N Out since the '70s (store #3 is a block from my high school, the same alma mater as the founders) and the consistency is amazing. It's been pretty much the same great recipe, as far as I can tell, the whole time. The fries changed some time in the '90s; they used to be more limp and greasy than they are now. I had friends who worked there and they made a great hourly wage (at the time I think I remember 200% minimum for a non-manager) and they really liked it. It was a tough and coveted job for a high schooler or someone in jr college.

280 points by ohjeez 9y ago

They’re run head and shoulders above every other fast food restaurant, maybe the secret is paying employees enough to make that happen? edit: changed management to employees to capture more generally.

dv_dt 9y ago
Maybe the secret is paying _everyone_ enough the make that happen. There's also a lot to be said for providing clean paths to climb the ladder by hiring internally (but that's made viable by paying well to provide good stability and mentoring at all levels...). Then you end up with inherently informed and connected management.
lozaning 9y ago
I think part of it is also that the restaurants are owned by In-N-Out, not franchised.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  It's amazing how different a franchised versus company owned restaurant can be. When I worked at a franchised McDonald's as a teenager we were all jealous of the corporate McDonald's a few miles down the road as they had better pay, benefits, uniforms and everything just looked way cleaner there. At my franchised McDonald's we were told to do the bare minimum for _every single thing_ we did. I'm curious if there is any data on franchised versus non franchised restaurants and if there is a way to objectively compare them.
  - Rapzid 9y ago
    I had a slightly different experience. In high school my first job was corporate Mackers in a Walmart. At 15 I was somehow the second most responsible person working there.. After high school I did another stint at a franchise location. The owner had an ace manager in there to "turn around" the store. Everything was ship shape and above board; top rating on store review was the expectation. As committed as everyone was the one thing I would have seriously cracked down on was... Wait for it... Pulling the fries out early. A couple of the managers didn't have the stomach for waiting the full time when cars were stacked up. They were mistakenly prioritizing the service time (which is usually sacred TBH!) over the quality of the french fries. This is a huge mistake and Mcdonalds has very tight lifetime limits on fries for a reason; aint nobody wants undercooked or stale fries. I always dropped my own fries for my free meal, and would often invite people in to purchase fries while I was there so they could be done right. A 1/2, or ideally 1/4, basket cooks the best and most evenly at the McDonalds prescribed cooking times IMHO. Full baskets without a cooking time adjustment would result in fries that are not quite so cooked properly.
    - koolba 9y ago
      Is “Mackers” McDonalds? I’ve never heard that nickname before. We mainly use “Mickey Dees”.
      - Rapzid 9y ago
        I did a stint in New Zealand; picked up some of the slang :)
        Nition 9y ago
        For the record in NZ although we do say that, we usually spell it 'Maccas'.
        Rapzid 9y ago
        Spelling was never my strong suite ;) Nor was avoiding picking up slang in NZ that was later pointed out to me to be racial slurs :| Nobody ever told me about ol' uncle Rangi!
        inferiorhuman 9y ago
        Yeah but with the accent it's probably spelt Mackers.
    - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
      The timing for the drive through made our life very difficult at the McDonald's I worked at. Managers would frequently clear orders not yet finished off of the screen just so the system registered a faster time completed. We would then have to carry around the receipt to try and figure out what the person ordered. In the worst of cases we'd have to pass the receipt to the grill area to get food made. All of our drive through times were complete bullshit because of this. Even during slow times where we'd have just a car every few minutes managers would IMMEDIATELY clear them off as they just need to "remember" the order. Which, as you can guess, increased wrong order complaints but those are also not sent to corporate so they never cared.
  - koolba 9y ago
    Is there a way to check whether a given McD is corporate or franchise? The McD by our house growing up was amazing. Even as a teen I remember it being well run. As an adult I moved to a different city and the local McD was the worst I’ve ever seen. That includes highway service area stores. Be curious to confirm my suspicions as to which is corporate.
    - Viper007Bond 9y ago
      There's usually a sign somewhere inside the restaurant.
    - greedo 9y ago
      YMMV, but when the franchise I worked at was extremely well run, and compared to a corporate store, far better. I used to be able to walk into a McDs and tell within a minute or two if they were franchise or McOpCo. The McOpCo stores were always dirty, understaffed, and had really demoralized employees.
    - BinaryIdiot 9y ago
      Back in the day the corporate McDonald's had a different uniform that was almost sorta suit like. Today they might be all the same, not sure, but you can probably contact them and ask.
  - prostoalex 9y ago
    For one thing, it enables careers instead of just jobs - In'n'Out employees are promoted all the way up the corporate chain, moved to launch new locations, and generally signals to employees that if they want to spend next 40 years working for the company, they will not be seen as failures by their peers, parents, significant others, children and people at high school reunion. With franchised restaurants the promotion ladder looks like employee -> manager -> dead-end.
ghaff 9y ago
There are a number of good chains in that category. Shake Shack, Five Guys. But In-N-Out is pretty good. I suspect it's a category that rewards quality/consistency and isn't just a race to the bottom like the truly mass market fast food chains are.
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
Agreed. They are my least favorite burgers and fries but the service is absolutely incredible. Every single person I have EVER dealt with is very professional and polite. I have never seen another restaurant with employees like that. It's often compared to Five Guys but the vast majority of Five Guys I've been in have employees that don't really seem to care.
- dpeck 9y ago
  Yeah, in my experience Five Guys doesn't really compare. They're run well but nothing exceptional.
- brandall10 9y ago
  Five Guys isn't fast food in the traditional sense - a basic cheeseburger/fries/drink is over $15 out here in southern California, whereas the same at In-N-Out is $6. But in that market we do have Burger Lounge which goes well beyond In-N-Out's service level. We also have Luna Grill for Mediterranean, similar excellence in service and quality of food.
  - dubyah 9y ago
    In-N-Out is fast food. Five Guys and all the other restaurants you've mentioned fall under fast casual.
    - dawnerd 9y ago
      I’ve never had a fast trip to an In-N-Out. Lines are always really long. Quality of their food has gone down hill over the years as they’ve tried to keep up. While it’s not even close to my fave I’d still shove an animal double double down my face so fast...
      - dubyah 9y ago
        They are immensely popular. But drive-thrus are still at the core of their service ever since the first location which was drive-thru only. That's one of many things that can't be said of any of their upscale competitors, hence the fast food vs fast casual.
pxeboot 9y ago
I have seen signs advertising $15/hour starting wages for their Bay Area restaurants. Not exactly great pay considering the cost of living.
b4lancesh33t 9y ago
It's hard to separate causality here. Maybe they can afford to pay people a lot because they make a lot of money, and maybe they make a lot of money because people like their menus and ingredients.
wedaugtwo 9y ago
Or could it be that with such high salaries, they can be extremely picky? Almost like a, "we only hire the best."

bluthru 9y ago

>A typical architect in California earns about $112,000 a year, according to the jobs site Indeed. That's because software architects are wrapped up with building architects on Indeed. Building architects make much less: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/architect-salary-SRCH_KO0,9.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/architect-salary-SRCH_KO0... (Which is partially why I left.)

asr 9y ago
The salary comparisons are also hurt by the fact that "architect" and "lawyer" are titles you have your entire career, while "restaurant manager" is a title only one person in the restaurant has. If you compared the salary of an in-n-out manager to the engineer running the team, or to law firm partners, you'd get a different conclusion. The fact that someone who's worked for a good chunk of their life at an In-N-Out makes more than a young professional fresh out of school seems pretty reasonable, when you think about it. (Although it still makes In-N-Out an exception, which is too bad.)
- aphextron 9y ago
  >The fact that someone who's worked for a good chunk of their life at an In-N-Out makes more than a young professional fresh out of school seems pretty reasonable, when you think about it. (Although it still makes In-N-Out an exception, which is too bad.) With almost certainly far more hours worked to make that salary, as well. Most fast food managers are spending 60+ hours/week in the store, opening early and closing late at night. All to make a decent living wage in California. I would not envy that life one bit.
dragonwriter 9y ago
Architechts, except Landscape and Naval (which also excludes Software Architects, which are in a completely different high-level category) make a median salary of $95,070 in California (about halfway between your Glassdoor info and what the article has from Indeed), per the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has much more complete data than either Indeed or Glassdoor. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes171011.htm#st https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes171011.htm#st

joe5150 9y ago

Though the In-N-Out where I live has seemed at times understaffed, most of the employees who work there have been there at least as long as I've lived here (over five years now), which has to be anomalous in fast food.

ohjeez 9y ago
I suppose it helps that they're paid a living wage!
- joe5150 9y ago
  I would wager that's the biggest single factor
  - exabrial 9y ago
    +1 for the pun

jxramos 9y ago

This is accurate, my old childhood buddy worked through In-N-Out for something like 7 or 8 years before and through college told me several years ago that managers make great cash and the whole In-N-Out ecosystem is really top notch in their employee dynamics.

jacobkg 9y ago

Does anyone know if they hire store managers from outside or whether they have to rise up through the ranks?

natecavanaugh 9y ago
I can't say for sure, but I would strongly imagine that they would want any managers they hire to be intimately familiar with the culture. So I could see that even if they did hire externally, the applicant would need to train through one or a few different jobs and become acclimated with their way of doing things. But I'm seriously only guessing from what I've seen of companies with really strong company cultures.

ucaetano 9y ago

I once did a quick "anthropological" study with In-N-Out employees (read: fancyspeak for sitting down and talking to them about their job), I was quite surprised. Most of them were very happy with their jobs, not just happy with pay and benefits and so on, but happy to work there. They found it a very welcoming and friendly work environment, where people were rewarded for initiative and trying to improve things. Most of them didn't see themselves leaving the company any time soon, unless it was for a different job type (such as moving to an office job after finishing school). It was a very good lesson on how job satisfaction doesn't need fancy cafés, ball pits and slides. PS: Those were just my impressions from talking to a limited number of employees. Endless numbers of caveats apply.

Rapzid 9y ago
I used to work at top graded Mackers (Mcdonald's reviews their stores and grades them) with a really awesome store manager and some great (took their jobs and quality very seriously) managers. The experience was great and really enjoyable. Unfortunately, the pay was just above minimum wage and the long term prospects were terrible. I can totally see how these guys/gals would be loyal and sticky if taken care of. Hard work you can leave at the door is very satisfying if you don't feel like you're going nowhere... Incidentally the 3x average sounds almost spot on; I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area. A nice reminder about the difference in meanings when the owner says "value" and when the employee says "value"
  - b4lancesh33t 9y ago
    I don't understand what criticism you're trying to level here. Would you please expand?

whoisjuan 9y ago

Hmmm. Is this true? Seems like the ideal way to get a disgruntled front line... You're in a service industry, making 30k a year - 15/hour as a cashier (regardless if you're getting any extra benefits) and your direct superior makes 160k? I don't know, but I can't imagine a scenario where people don't get pissed-off with such a massive difference for two jobs that are performed on the same location, imply interactions with the same people and are only one command-chain level apart.

jsloss 9y ago
Store managers most likely aren’t the front line’s direct supervisor. And the gap between roles as far as responsibility would be high. I would expect very high standards and tough to reach goals would make being a store manager a challenging role to succeed at.
nurettin 9y ago
I don't know, looks like the ultimate carrot and stick to me.
jonknee 9y ago
On the other hand I could see people enjoying having a competent and motivated boss.
joe5150 9y ago
There will be shift and assistant managers between a cashier and the store manager, I'd assume.

Judgmentality 9y ago

I realize this is the exception and not the rule, but it's great to see that fast food chains can make incredible profits while paying their employees significantly more than the competition. There are so many restaurateurs and investors claiming it's impossible for the fast food industry to survive the $15 minimum wage hike, but I suspect it will just make this already cut-throat space even more prone to failure.

hueving 9y ago
In-N-Out truly seems to be in a league of its own. The one I frequented in Mountain View would consistently have a line through off hours. I would show up midnight and still have to wait. Meanwhile, the Jack in the Box just down the street usually had about 3 cars in the lot, one for each employee. It's very possible that $15/hr could kill a lot of less popular fast food restaurants, particularly in more isolated areas.
- briandear 9y ago
  The market at work! Make a shit product and get driven out of the market or be forced to up to game. Ultimately that means better pay and better products. (Since the two go hand in hand when it comes to service-driven businesses — In and Out is a case in point.)
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > Make a shit product and get driven out of the market or be forced to up to game. The problem is when you have a fastfood restaurant in a run down part of the town where people may have money for a $1 cheeseburger but not for a $2 cheeseburger.
  - hueving 9y ago
    Better pay for those lucky enough to work at the remaining 10% of restaurants. Not good for the remainder of employees.

Larrikin 9y ago

What I found interesting in Japan, was it seems like employees working in the larger fast food chains had a pretty much guaranteed track to the corporate office if they were willing to put in the time working at the store and had credentials to match. Usually the employees are part time with no desire to climb up, but I met few people who worked at McDs or KFC during college and had a job offer or atleast an interview waiting at the end of it in the corporate office. One guy I talked to was told that he had to put in a full year to be considered for interviews in the next graduating class, so he worked at McDs after college so he could interview the next year. Do the chains in the US offer similar tracks? Does experience at the chain translate well to getting hired in the corporate offices? Seems like an easy way incentivize college students and graduates to work at a chain and actually take it seriously. I worked at a McDs as my first job, years ago and I still see a lot of the same faces when I go back home. Even when I was there one of the managers was complaining that after 10 years she was told she couldn't get her normal yearly raise because she was "making too much money already" according to the owner. Corporate could and should pay for/partially pay for college for managers without an education as a perk for high performers.

callumprentice 9y ago

Another business that had well paid store managers is Trader Joe’s - I believe they also make something towards $160K in total comp. Also a place filled with happy, helpful people. Almost like there is a connection between a good package and happy employees.

phasetransition 9y ago

Chik Fil A owner operators also comfortably in this realm of income. Both companies get a lot of the same things right for customer and employees. P.S. If you get put down as a reference for a potential hire at Chik Fil A corporate, don't be surprised to find yourself in a 45+ minute discussion about the hire. They take vetting seriously.

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bpicolo 9y ago
I don't think comparing franchise ownership with managers is a particularly fair place yeah? You have to put like a million in capital down at a minimum to open something like a chick fil a.
- seanalltogether 9y ago
  Chick-fil-a famously requires $10,000 to become a franchise "operator", but they require a heavy investment in time and energy and can be revoked at will. I think it's more appropriate to compare a chick-fil-a operator with an in-and-out manager, than it is to compare them to a mcd franchise owner.
  - phasetransition 9y ago
    About a decade ago a friend applied to become an owner-operator at Chik Fil A. He had years of experience managing multiple car washes, and a letter of recommendation from someone at corporate. He made it from the initial multiple thousands of applicants to the second round of 500. Corporate told him to go work for 12+ months behind the counter in a Chik Fil A and then re-apply. They had you rank your store location choices, and you moved where they told you to, if you were selected. I forget how many stores they were going to open a year, but I want to say it was around 100 back then.

habosa 9y ago

I always notice there are a TON of people working at every In N Out. Like maybe 10 people behind the counter versus 3 at a McDonalds. Anyone know what's up with that?

SubiculumCode 9y ago
It's called the drive thru is always stacked with cars.
toast0 9y ago
McDonald's has been investing in labor saving (including automation). A robot pours the drinks for the drive thru, they've got the combo ketchup and mustard things; and a lot of the food is prepped off-site. In-N-Out tends to be higher volume than the MacDonald's around me; but they also are cutting potatoes just in time, and hand assembling burgers.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  I wouldn’t exactly call what McDonald’s has a robot. It’s just a button that turns off the street after so long. Been using them for at least 10 years now too. But I get what you’re saying. They just updated the McDonald’s near me to be primarily touch screen ordering yet somehow they still take forever to essentially assemble pre cooked food. I don’t get it...
  - toast0 9y ago
    They've got new robots since last year ish; it pulls a cup, puts in ice, and fills with soda. Here's a video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akv4vSXa5a4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=akv4vSXa5a4 In this video, a human is waiting around for it, but what I've seen as a customer is the machine usually runs unsupervised while the drive thru person chases after the food orders.
dboreham 9y ago
>Anyone know what's up with that? Volume.

jitix 9y ago

I think the interesting point here is that the company is private and doesn't have to maximize short term profits for shareholder gains. From my own experience I've seen that a private/bootstrapped company has much more flexibility to think long term (and that usually means keeping employees happy) than a public company. On the other hand the stock market drives a lot of important things like pension funds, mutual funds, etc. Maybe we can strike a balance and trade shares based on their long term dividend potential.

hueving 9y ago
AMZN is entirely focused on long term gains and reinvesting money and the stock is killing it. Being publicly traded != making short term decisions.

xbeta 9y ago

> If other fast food establishments have been reluctant to raise wages, Jayaraman added, it’s because pressure from investors has elevated quarterly gains above the potential long-term benefits of happy workers. In-N-Out has no public shareholders. Well, that's a reason why I think lots of startups these days opt for a much later public offering. Public investors are just very short-sighted on making a smart financial investment decision. Can't blame them, we are all been told using number (or some measurable metrics) to evaluate any businesses without even understanding what does the business do.

chii 9y ago
> using number (or some measurable metrics) to evaluate any businesses without even understanding what does the business do. if those metrics are any good, why won't those metrics be higher for those companies that put long term gains (e.g., happy workforce) a priority? Those metrics that show good numbers for short term gains are bad metrics, and the shareholders who like them are likely to want to cash out before the 'long term' hits, and therefore, use those metrics to justify their decisions.
- xbeta 9y ago
  Unless there's an agreed methodology on how to measure that "happiness" in the workforce with good science backing it, then sure. But for so many years, I think human never reach that consensus.
  - chii 9y ago
    i would've thought the most obvious, and most agree-able method is to simply ask the yes/no question- 'are you happy at this job?'.
    - xbeta 9y ago
      Sure, but I don't think human is very good at judging his/her own emotion on a simple yes/no question on happiness. :-)

mc32 9y ago

That they can pay hourlies (as well as the highlighted managers) well above industry average and still manage to make a profit undercuts the argument that companies in the service industry need _cheap_ labor to survive. It's the companies who want to milk dry the American worker who cry wolf at the thought of having to pay Americans a decent wage. There are millions of people who have left the labor force because their wages have been undercut. I think there is a significant pool of willing workers willing to work for the right wages --they may need some assistance in getting back to being productive workers, but I think industry owes them that after decades of neoliberal policies outsourcing and shipping jobs overseas.

perfectstorm 9y ago
+ 1. I love In-N-Out. Their burgers are cheap and the ingredients are fresh. I can have a burger with fries for <$5. Hard to beat that price in SF.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  It's good until you've had Shake Shack or Steak n Shake. Both have much tastier burgers IMO. In-N-Out is fine, and I don't have a problem with them, but I'm also not over the moon about it and truly don't understand the 30-minute drive-through lines at their locations. More power to 'em, I suppose, but it's really just a super-basic burger done fairly well for a good price.
  - gknoy 9y ago
    I've enjoyed burgers at the Habit, and at Five Guys, and I still love In-N-Out. It's even possible that 5 Guys or the Habit have tastier burgers. However, In-n-out burgers are almost half the price, and the drive through service makes me genuinely pleased every time I go. Best drive through process I've ever seen -- people taking your order before you get to the speakers, a window to take your money, a window to give you food, and every post staffed by cheerful, helpful people. I've even taken the time to find their website and say, "wow, I'm impressed by the good service I've seen here, there, everywhere", which is something I can't usually be bothered to do for any other restaurant. I'm not sure how much of my enjoyment of them is due to nostalgia, consistently excellent service, or maybe a pareto optimal price-vs-taste point? ;)

mrarjen 9y ago

Welcome to the world where we talk about the company giving their employees a proper salary and benefits, because every other company of it's kind is unlikely to do so. Let's hope more companies follow eventually. I heard good things of In-N-Out and ill likely visit one one day when I'm ever back in the states.

hueving 9y ago
What is a 'proper' salary? Also, the very reason this is news is because it's 3x the average. If all of the restaurants paid the same it would just be the average and not worth an article.
- mrarjen 9y ago
  A proper salary is one where the workers can live their lives without worries about money or having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet. And 3 times the average for this kind of work in a place where 2 times the amount is the normal average is kind of crazy. And this should indeed not be an article to begin with but it is.
  - hueving 9y ago
    >A proper salary is one where the workers can live their lives without worries about money or having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet. That's lacking enough concrete details to be meaningful. It seems to be 'more than they'll ever need' to meet the criteria of not needing to worry about money. Do you think one of these managers could live in San Francisco without worrying about money? 20k/annum is enough for someone who owns a house and lives in a low COL area to not worry about money. (one of my friends lives like that and appears to be happier than I) 300k/annum is not enough for a family of 4 living next to Central Park in NYC. There is no way to decide that people are making a living wage without a centralized definition of living, which most people will disagree with.
    - mrarjen 9y ago
      I do think one of these managers could live in certain area's in SF without much worries. But I agree if you will live in a 30 million mansion with a view over the city, you won't have enough as a manager.

jedberg 9y ago

My understanding from folks who work there is that it's basically impossible to get a job there unless you know someone who already works there and can vouch for you. As in, they won't even interview you without a recommendation from a current employee. I guess this helps them maintain quality hires.

baby 9y ago

My 2 cents: 1. in-n-out is amazing. It is my favorite mcdonalds-type burger. It's simple (only one burger on the menu, with or without cheese), it's fresh and it's cheap. In addition, employees are always nice to you. I wish it was in Europe. 2. I worked at McDonald in France, got minimum wage. I got out quickly but some friends stayed for quite a long time (3 years). The main reason is because they promote you quickly. Everybody hates the job (unless you're staying for a few months only, then it's fun) but everybody gets trapped by the constant promotion system. The trick is that promotions don't necessarily increase your salary, or if they do then it's peanuts. Even the director of my restaurant (not a franchise) was paid peanuts. 3. Working in a fast food can be fun! people don't expect that, but I always recommend people to try it. There is definitely a pleasure in manual labor, an instant gratification that you don't necessarily get in intellectual-type jobs.

no_wizard 9y ago

I personally believe this has much to do with with two things. 1) In-n-out is not public. At all. So they don’t have to answer to the pressure of Wall Street and it’s sharks or get a huge stake taken by a hedge fund or Any of those other external pressures of that nature. 2) they’re still majority family owned and the guy who founded it reallly believed in taking great care of his workers

justherefortart 9y ago
So you either didn't rtfa or you're simply reposting what it said here. What's the point?
bedhead 9y ago
I have a slight quibble with the first point, though I generally agree. There are public companies out there that simply don't care about Wall St, and are run like they're private. It requires an admittedly rare combination of founder controlled/involved, no need to raise capital, strong business model, and unique culture. Think about Amazon, who have given the capital markets the biggest middle finger of all time, refusing to show a single dollar of profit because they believe the reinvestment opportunities are too great (I would strongly agree). There's an agricultural company called Seaboard Corp that's public. Its's a $5 billion market cap company controlled by the founding family. There are no analysts covering it, they've never once held a conference call, they don't give guidance, etc. The stock is near its all-time high and has returned a staggering 22% annually since 2000. Sure, these are rare, but the market is pretty efficient about this stuff over time. So it's possible, and I bet it would be possible for In-N-Out as well. But it would probably still be viewed as a hassle, and if no one in the family needs liquidity to buy a super-yacht, or pay a massive divorce settlement, or buy an NBA team, there's no point.
- w0m 9y ago
  Amazon is an interesting example. Yes, they grossly reinvest rather than pay dividends, but they don't invest in employee pay/compensation directly ('wastes' as per common view of what wall street wants)

gpapilion 9y ago

This is not an atypical salary for yum brands managers in the Bay Area. I wonder how much of this is being a primarily California chain.

gebeeson 9y ago
I've thought this as well - location might play into all of this as well. I live in a relatively small county in southeast Georgia and all of the fast food joints here start great but end up abysmal simply due to the caliber of people that are working there. Pay? Location? Manager? Over all framework with all of the above applied as cause? Not sure. Recently several places here (Waffle House and Burger King) are super short staffed because they simply cannot find anyone to fill the positions with the pay advertised. That kind of thing here is becoming more of a problem.

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ainiriand 9y ago

Here is the key: 'In-N-Out has no public shareholders'. Stay away from Wall Street sharks and the urge to give increasingly bigger profits every year vanishes.

scelerat 9y ago

I've been eating at In N Out since the '70s (store #3 is a block from my high school, the same alma mater as the founders) and the consistency is amazing. It's been pretty much the same great recipe, as far as I can tell, the whole time. The fries changed some time in the '90s; they used to be more limp and greasy than they are now. I had friends who worked there and they made a great hourly wage (at the time I think I remember 200% minimum for a non-manager) and they really liked it. It was a tough and coveted job for a high schooler or someone in jr college.