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Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts
- tj-teej 9y agoThey're "good faith" is asking customers to read the Apple Terms and Conditions... I hate to reference Orwell, but the fact that Apple convinced us all to lie by saying we'd read the T&C and now are telling us that there's "important" information in this unreadable document seems like classic Orwell.
- emsy 9y agoIMHO this is sending a strong signal to people like myself who mainly use an iPhone for privacy reasons. Regardless of whether or not the data is only stored encrypted at the 3rd party, their willingness to compromise in this regard is a strong indicator for their future actions and their commitment to privacy and security.
- alexeldeib 9y agoWhile you're not wrong, this strikes me as the cost of doing business in China. For comparison, AWS and Azure both operate under local partners in China. e: "strikes me as" == "is"; it's not really optional.
- plandis 9y agoBecause the options are either do that or exit the country unfortunately.
- alexeldeib 9y agoPrecisely my point, but thanks for clarifying. The subtext I guess is that in my view it's worthwhile for Apple, even if I have personal qualms about the privacy implications. Then again, I would assume this won't affect non-Chinese region Apple/iCloud users.
- Chaebixi 9y ago>> Because the options are either do that or exit the country unfortunately. > The subtext I guess is that in my view it's worthwhile for Apple Exiting the country might be the most worthwhile long term choice for a company. China has clearly indicated, through it's actions, that it's mainly interested in technology transfer to shore up it's domestic competitors. It's not really interested in giving foreigners a fair shot at its market. This might not be very true for Apple (as it's really mostly a luxury smartphone maker), bit it is for a lot of the companies that would like to do business there.
- rdlecler1 9y agoThat cost of doing business seems to be getting more expensive all the time. At what point do we have to subsidize that cost with our own privacy and freedom?
- jgalar 9y agoPure speculation on my part, but could this be a way for Apple to segregate Chinese account data from the rest of their customers' data? That would seem to limit the scope of what Chinese authorities can access.
- pawelkomarnicki 9y agoTo me it seems to be case — Chinese customers will use firewalled version of iCloud available only in one country.
- jitl 9y agoThis is exactly what this is done. Apple needs to isolate its Chinese users so that only they are affected by Chinese government regulations.
- Chaebixi 9y agoHow do they define "Chinese users?" What about an American traveling or living in China?
- dave84 9y agoWhat course of action would you prefer: Willingly shut down iCloud in China or have iCloud forcefully shut down in China?
- ISL 9y agoI'd prefer that China allow its citizens to freely access the global internet.
- justaman 9y agoI think(I hope) as more people in China come online they will realize that they are missing out.
- r00fus 9y agoSadly the opposite might occur. Fake news is very useful. For corporations, it acts like PR/marketing channel. For nation-states it's a great propaganda channel. What if the Communist Party of China was actually visionaries what the Internet could do for oppressive nation-states, if properly harnessed for the good of the party?
- rainbowmverse 9y agoThis was the hope with the internet here in the US. Hundreds of millions of users later, the average person seems even less informed on the world around them. Access is meaningless if good information is less appealing or is made to seem less credible than propaganda.
- Y_Y 9y agoI was going to comment that I think the question referred to what course of action /Apple/ should take, but maybe fundamentally changing superstates is not off the table when you have multinational megacorp resources.
- lostlogin 9y agoWhat are you suggesting? Revolution?
- pawelkomarnicki 9y agoMany countries have such limitations, not only China requires data to be stored "in the country", but also Russia. I've been in a situation, where an international product got "forked" into a daughter-company-controlled China-only product. Nothing escaped this Chinese sandbox, and nothing got into either.
- eeks 9y agoI disagree. Apple has always made clear that information stored on their iCloud service were subject accesses by a third party with the proper authority. Whether this third party is US or Chinese does not change anything. Only the information that is resident on your phone with the Secure Enclave is tamper resistant.
- emsy 9y agoI don't buy into this line of reasoning, because it inverts the relationship. Of course Apple has to hand over access to authorities if there's a lawful reason behind it, just like e.g. a private person has to oblige to a search warrant. But in this case they hand over their infrastructure to an untrusted party in order to conduct business in the first place. Again, it's not so much about what the firm can actually do with the infrastructure (ideally, it's a black box that only the user can access with the correct key), but what compromise they're willing to make in order to conduct business. Privacy has become a selling point for Apple, and actions like these signal how serious they are about it.
- Spooky23 9y agoBlackberry went through the same issue with the a similar outcome. Personally, I see this as a positive development, as it signals that the company is doing what it claims to, promoting the PRC to get the same accommodation that Office 365 delivered versus giving the state the level of access it demands. If you feel strongly or have a requirement to control your account principal, you should not be using a third party identity store.
- kome 9y agoIn Europe we need to do like in China. Or our tech industry is doomed to stay small...
- pawelkomarnicki 9y agoIsn't critical information (medical, financial) required to be hosted on European soil?
- geocar 9y agoNot always. Privacy Shield is one such way that we can host that information inside the US.
- cromwellian 9y agoProtectionism isn’t going to make your tech industry globally competitive.
- kome 9y agoNo, but who cares? Tencent, Baido, etc are not globally competitive, but they are very fine. You know what else is not going to make European tech industry globally competitive? The chronic lack of money, because it's all siphoned away by google, amazon, apple, and such. Do we need a global competition? Why? An internal competition in a huge market is good enough. China encouraged the development of a strong internal market: and they are innovating like crazy. Europe is big enough to do the same.
- atonse 9y agoChina is one country where the majority speaks a handful of languages (please don't attack me if this comment is ignorant, be nice) But is it easy to get the EU countries to even agree on any of this stuff? (Genuinely asking, cuz I imagine it's insanely hard because each country has their own culture and priorities)
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- muninn_ 9y agoOther countries need to reciprocate this action. If you're a Chinese company and you collect user data, that data will be managed by a third party company that is owned by the host nation and if you don't like it, you have to leave the country. This should be a retaliatory measure. There's no reason Chinese companies should get to gobble up Dutch data or something and then inevitably use that for spam and scam, and then cry foul about some other company gathering user data about Chinese users. I don't have an issue with China, but when they do these types of things, then I believe other countries should reciprocate the action. China can either play fair, or lose access to other international markets and just sell products locally to China.
- chinatrnp 9y agoMuch as I hate Trump, I'd love for him to do something about China. If China won't open their tech markets maybe we force them to. PS: don't make this a Trump hate sub thread. Stay on topic if you reply to me
- justaman 9y agoDon't mention Trump on this forum even if you preface what you say with disdain. You'll never go positive. I agree that the US/EU needs to be harder on China. Its been very one sided in recent years. The real issue, I think, is their disregard for intellectual property. You bend over backwards to get into their market, then a year later a government backed firm with an identical product puts you out of business. They won't get away with that for long, believe you me.
- gaius 9y agoThey won't get away with that for long, believe you me What year do you predict they will no longer get away with it?
- justicezyx 9y agoWhen Chines can produce superior IPs than other nations, then they will become the true defender of IP.
- gaius 9y agoIf there are any Western IP-generating firms left by then I’m sure they’ll be pleased!
- cromwellian 9y agoMoney trumps principles plain and simple. My guess is this will continue until the day Apple sales in China decline below a certain level, then they’ll be a ‘brave, principled’ decision announced that they are shutting down iCloud in China or withdrawing from the market altogether.
- ISL 9y agoIn Apple's case, as the Apple manufacturing base is largely Chinese, the government has considerable leverage regarding corporate decisions.
- cromwellian 9y agoIf I was Apple then, I’d start investing some of that $200 billion they have in the bank in some advanced nonchinese manufacturing. Get some balls like Elon Musk and take some risks.
- debt 9y agoI absolutely believe Apple's foray into China is a huge misstep for the Apple brand. Imagine when all the censorship and surveillance and the actions taking with personal data start surfacing, they're going to very quickly try to get out. Apple pulling VPN apps off the App Store is just the beginning. It may be a big market, but I think Apple shouldn't be there under the Apple name, because stuff like this shows me that it's literally a different company. It's simply not worth the business.
- ProAm 9y agoApple cares more about revenue than brand in regards to China
- innagadadavida 9y agoWhy do people in USA care about what the Chinese government does? It's not like you are willing to take care of it's citizens, but the Chinese government has a responsibility and they seem to be trading off fairness so fewer people are impoverished.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- chatmasta 9y agoToday you, tomorrow me.
- remir 9y agoShareholders demand growth and Apple entering China is a way for them to grow. If Cook says "fuck it, we pack our shit and leave China", the board will quickly replace him because there's simply too much money to be made in China for Apple.
- codedokode 9y agoThat might be a mistake. Once Apple makes a deal with China, Russia will ask for the same deal. Russian government want to keep the data in their country too.
- jitl 9y agoIf the choice is either to comply with those governments, or loose an enourmous market, Apple will comply in both cases.
- Grue3 9y agoRussian market is way smaller, and the good PR they will undoubtedly get for abandoning it will offset the losses.
- wunderg 9y agoThere is not a single Apple Store currently in Russia. All apple products are available online only. I think Russia will have 0 leverage to make apple to go thru all the troubles.
- shp0ngle 9y agoApple to FBI: No you can't get into iPhones, our users want security. Apple to China: Here are the keys
- jitl 9y agoThe difference is that it’s within Apple’s rights in the US to refuse to cooperate with a warrant in the way that they did. The constitution of the United States has strong protections for individuals’ privacy from the state. This is not the case in China. In both cases, they are protecting user privacy to the greatest extent they can by law. Secondly, Apple is not handing the keys to their system over to China. Instead, they are deploying a separate system for Chinese accounts to preserve the privacy and security of all other accounts. And finally, they are not compromising the Secure Enclave or any device security features.
- msh 9y agoThey absolutely have the right to refuse to cooperate with the Chinese government, its called refusing to do business in China.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoWho is "They"? If it is "Tim Cook", then Tim Cook has the right to be CEO and do business in China, or get fired. If you mean Apple stock holders, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about taking a huge hit on their second or (at times) first largest market. Would you be willing to slice your retirement savings in half for this?
- msh 9y agoGoogle pulled out of China, so some times companies put principles before short term profit. Something Tim Cook have claimed apple also does, but apparently not in regards to China.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
- ng12 9y ago"Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co"? Doesn't sound sketchy at all.
- rainbowmverse 9y agoThis just reminds me of that subthread in yesterday's Facebook home device post where people were ranking tech companies. A lot of people put Apple first on respect for privacy. It's good to have a reminder of the nature of corporations so soon after that. Tools for users to take privacy and security into their own hands need to be made accessible enough to make it truly matter. Its like herd immunity with vaccinations: it doesn't matter that you use encryption and block trackers if all the people around you provide enough data to make inferences about the private few.
- klodolph 9y agoA counterpoint here: Consider American subpoenas, court order, FISA warrants and the like. Remember that FISA warrants are secret! Having the data managed by a US company has these consequences. Perhaps you trust the US government more than you trust the Chinese government... that is very reasonable, to be sure. But it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in, rather than the laws of a foreign power. This is not even remotely hypothetical. Making everyone's data accessible to organizations and people subject to US court orders is bad for privacy. This kind of thing will be happening more and more, and not just China and Russia, but also the EU. So it won't just be that Chinese users can be spied upon by the Chinese government. It will also be true that it will be more difficult for the US to spy on citizens of other countries.
- rainbowmverse 9y agoIf that's a counterpoint, my point must have been unclear. I think we're in agreement.
- klodolph 9y agoI think I did not read your original comment very well.
- jstanley 9y agoIn some respects I'd rather have my data managed by a Chinese company than a British one. It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me.
- MollyR 9y agoThis is probably the way it should be. Multinational corporation have subdivisions that handle local laws and customs. ex. Facebook Germany should handle all its specific speech laws rather than trying blanket global speech to Germany or EU specific laws. Though at that point you start losing advantages at scaling depending on implementation.
- reaperducer 9y agoAnother chance for Apple to stand up and do the right thing, and it flinched because it would rather have money than morals. And don't give me the standard amoral shareholders whine. Apple is already on record as saying it would rather do the right thing than make money, and if investors don't like it they can go pound sand. Now Apple's sold out a billion people. How long until the Chinese government requires access to the Secure Enclave chips in iDevices?
- jxy 9y agoActually, once you have the iCloud accounts, you can bypass the Secure Enclave chips.
- jxy 9y agoA correct title would be: Apple sold out all China iCloud accounts I guess I understand. It is either the market or the privacy and security of their Chinese user. They chose the market so all of our retirement funds still hold their face values.
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoThey aren't the first. Microsoft/Skype had to outsource PRC Skype account's to TomTom, Azure has to outsource its PRC cloud operation to a Shanghai utility company, and so on.
- emptybits 9y agoApple's compliance with Beijing is morally weak but financially strong, not just for them but for Apple Developers. A month ago, Apple noted that it has 1.8 million developers in China (and/or developers publishing to China -- not clear to me). At any rate, the Apple platform has made those developers $17 billion dollars.[1] So China is big business for Apple developers and I assume many of those developers are US/CA/EU/AU/etc. who benefit from the platform being available in China. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/03/apples-tim-cook-says-developers-have-earned-17-billion-from-china-app-store.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/03/apples-tim-cook-says-develop...
- innagadadavida 9y agoWhen you say "moral" are they your morals or the developer's and China's morals? Does your morals accommodate theirs or is it too restrictive?
- emptybits 9y agoYes, those are my own assessments. It's possible that someone could view Apple's decision to compromise its customers privacy to remain in the Chinese market as "morally strong". I would like to hear a defense of that position if someone held it. Apple's decision appears to be legally compliant but morality must transcend legality in my worldview. i.e. the "good men" argument per Emerson or others
- a_c 9y ago> iCloud accounts registered outside of China are not affected. What exactly does this mean? What makes an online account registered in a geographic location? Is it determined by where the iphone is bought, the IP addresses when the registration is made, the email account used for the registration or something else?
- chatmasta 9y agoIt goes by billing address of payment method.
- stcredzero 9y agoAs of early 2018, national boundaries combined with linguistic barriers are still more powerful than the internet. Could this change with low Earth orbit satellite internet? (Given the precedents to date, I'd expect the Chinese government to jam the signals or otherwise intervene.)
- chatmasta 9y agoNot as long as payments go through the current financial system. If you’re using a US credit card, with a US billing address, to transact with a company, then you are “US registered” regardless of where your packets are routed. Until it’s possible/mainstream to decouple identity from payment, your payment method will always be the weakest link.
- stcredzero 9y agoAre you presuming that most of the internet will be paywalled by then?
- chatmasta 9y agoTo be fair I was speaking more about iCloud and the App Store (which is “the Internet” to many people) than I was the wider internet. To answer your question... I hope not. But perhaps we are already there. Boiling frog etc.
- ttflee 9y agoJust cleared some of my iCloud photos with faces. Resistance is useless. WeChat, QQ, AliPay and other complied third-party online services are more than enough. As long as you are connected in the Matrix, it has you.
- bitmapbrother 9y agoIf you ever needed a sign that Apple cares more about making money than their user's privacy than this is it. If Apple really respected their user's privacy than they should take a stand and lets the chips fall where they may. If this is the cost of doing business in China then perhaps Apple should rethink its strategy.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago"At Apple, we believe privacy is a fundamental human right."[1] Unless you live in China in which case your fundamental human rights take a back seat. I did a Google translate on their Chinese web page: "At Apple, we treat privacy as the fundamental right of everyone."[2] Perhaps Google translate messed up and missed the "human rights" part from the Chinese translation, but I'm guessing it didn't. [1]https://www.apple.com/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/ [2]https://www.apple.com/cn/privacy/ https://www.apple.com/cn/privacy/
- dingdongding 9y agoThis just shows to what extent Apple is willing to bend its rules for China. They're just too dependent on China. China has upper hand here. I've a feeling that one day China might ditch Apple.
- samat 9y agoI am very concerned that now Apple will make exactly same thing with Russian accounts. This link might come handy: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201389 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201389 All you need is a foreign credit/debit card.