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Beijing bets on facial recognition in a big drive for total surveillance

172 points by apta 9y ago

leggomylibro 9y ago
>a toilet roll dispenser at a public facility outside the Temple of Heaven in Beijing reportedly scans faces to keep people from stealing too much paper, I have several questions: 1. Wait, am I stealing paper when I use a public restroom? Are those dispensers like the 'take a penny, leave a penny' tills? 2. Is there an acceptable amount of stealing which the facial recognition limits, or does it alert the management any time that paper is dispensed and leave the judgement to human beings? 3. There are literally cameras in the stalls? 4. How long is its memory? If it shuts me down, can I simply wait for someone else to go in before resuming my theft?
- alister 9y ago
  It's explained in the linked BBC[1] article: "The machines dispense strips of toilet paper measuring 60 to 70cm (24 to 27.5 inches) to each person. They will not dispense more paper to the same person until after nine minutes have passed. Visitors to the Temple of Heaven park's toilets were taking excessive amounts of toilet paper, some of whom were seen stuffing their bags." The photo in the article shows that the automated paper dispensers are located outside the stalls. Without even talking about an Orwellian surveillance society, this seems like an over-engineered, inconvenient, and expensive solution to a minor problem. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39324431 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39324431
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Before you had to bring your own toilet paper (when I visited the Temple of Heaven for the first time in 1999), or you could buy some from the attendant for a few mao (cents). Now that attendants are too expensive, they have to come up with something else, while tourists from the lesser tier cities still see bathroom provided toilet paper as a luxury.
    - blackbagboys 9y ago
      It seems like this problem could more easily be solved with a vending machine than a complicated facial recognition apparatus.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Vending machines still means you’d have to pay for it. Beijing tried to market itself as international-level tourism, but can’t provide free TP? That would be too much loss of face (pun intended).
        stevenwoo 9y ago
        Might be remembering wrong, but I thought when I went to the Eiffel Tower about 30 years ago, I had to pay to use the bathroom (there was a coin thing on the door to the stalls). That doesn't seem very different to me, though obviously someone can pay to use a toilet and take all the toilet paper if it's on a roll inside.
        michaelt 9y ago
        Bathrooms in London train stations used to be free - but a few years back, a lot of them started charging money. Usually around 20p, sometimes as much as 50p [1]. You can usually avoid paying (many stations have pubs and restaurants with free toilets, for example) but you don't have to go to 30 years ago to find OECD countries charging for public toilets :) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/07/train-station-toilets-make-millions-every-year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/07/train-statio...
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        I’m not sure what the point is. I encountered for-pay toilets long before I learned to pack my own TP around in Beijing. It’s just not very comparable. A good day was when you could find one that was sitting and not squatting.
      - strebler 9y ago
  - mc32 9y ago
    So.... Can you at least say, "Ok, but I'll pay for more" in the event you find you need more (due to digestive issues)? I mean, unless that 70cm is soft double plied tissue, you are not gonna get many wipes out of it.
    - averagewall 9y ago
      It would be a surprise to find any toilet paper in a public toilet, so someone who needs it will already have their own. Remember, the alternative to this is not unlimited toilet paper but no toilet paper, so it's an improvement for everyone.
      - lovemenot 9y ago
        >> Remember, the alternative to this is not unlimited toilet paper but no toilet paper ... ... but no toilet paper and no surveillance in the crapper ...
- NamTaf 9y ago
  In many places in China, you either take your own toilet paper or the dispenser is outside the stalls. That is to say, you take a wad of paper before entering the stalls. It stems from when toilet paper was a luxury item.
- doug1001 9y ago
  Minister to developer: "people are stealing toilet paper from stalls We have to stop this!" developer to Minister: "ideal use case for Machine Learning--i'm on it"
- b0rsuk 9y ago
  All red herrings. I heard of the toilet paper issue yesterday in a radio programme. It was in context of Lhasa, the capital of Tibet. They combine facial recognition, voice recognition and old fashioned human policemen to instantly stop dissidents. They boast when someone starts shouting "Long live Dalai Llama ! Freedom to Tibet(...)" they shut him down within 60-70 seconds. There are guard posts all over the place. Temples bigger than a phone booth have a police station inside. When they arrested 4 wealthiest inhabitants, it took people months to realize that. The information net is so tight. Surveillance is the goal, not the means. Savings on toilet paper is just a bonus and a convenient excuse. Granted, Lhasa is a hotspot and gets special treatment, but China is all too happy to export these measures to various dictators to promote The China Way. Native chinese blog poster gets a sentence for criticizing the government for sending army patrols to (some other) unruly region. He was saying it alienates the population and is overkill. Your questions would earn you a fine at the very least.
  - leggomylibro 9y ago
    Good point, I guess it's pretty facile to make a joke about that sort of thing. Still, though. Poop.
    - b0rsuk 9y ago
      It sounds ridiculous when taken out of context, but the point the radio guest (polish TOK FM statio) was making was: when surveillance is ubiquitous, they can get away with anything. People become used to surveillance and afraid. An isolated rebel can't achieve much, it would take multiple people all over the region to make a difference.
- DashRattlesnake 9y ago
  > Wait, am I stealing paper when I use a public restroom? In China most public restrooms don't have any toilet paper and you have to bring your own. If this one is stocked with free paper, they may be trying to prevent people from taking extra to use in other restrooms.
  - wmertens 9y ago
    Isn't the toilet paper there meant to dry/clean your hand after you used the latter to clean your downstairs area using the water that is also near the toilet?
m3kw9 9y ago
Looks like a big money grab by the companies that touts they can accurately track people
- phantomathkg 9y ago
  See https://www.sensetime.com/cases#0 https://www.sensetime.com/cases#0 There are already companies that are doing that.
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
In China, the government watches your every move. In the rest of the world, it's your phone. Edit: No, but wait because this is published in the Washington Post, the same Washington Post who was declaring "No Pardon for Edward Snowden" just last September [1]. If its editors are so appalled by surveillance, as we should all certainly be, why are they not as appalled about the mass surveillance used by their own government on their own fellow citizens? _________________ [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/edward-snowden-doesnt-deserve-a-pardon/2016/09/17/ec04d448-7c2e-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html?utm_term=.071591ae401f https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/edward-snowden-doesn...
- frozenport 9y ago
  The complication is that Mr. Snowden did more than that. He also pilfered, and leaked, information about a separate overseas NSA Internet-monitoring program, PRISM, that was both clearly legal and not clearly threatening to privacy. (It was also not permanent; the law authorizing it expires next year.) Worse — far worse — he also leaked details of basically defensible international intelligence operations: cooperation with Scandinavian services against Russia; spying on the wife of an Osama bin Laden associate; and certain offensive cyber operations in China.
- schuke 9y ago
  I'm not defending surveillance in the US, but given the very different institutions and political systems involved, maybe different conclusions can be consistent? Snowden is a hero by the way.
  - tmalsburg2 9y ago
    Note, though, that most Chinese people will use the exact same argument to justify the actions of their government.
    - ttflee 9y ago
      From what I know about posts circulated in WeChat timeline, I would bet that most Chinese have already been brainwashed that national security should be defended at all cost and that Edward Snowden is a traitor whose action indirectly benefited motherland China, and therefore he should be applauded but not be learned from. Think the Nineteen Eighty-Four.
thisisit 9y ago
There was a video posted by WSJ on how this surveillance is affecting people's life: https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chinas-surveillance-state-overwhelms-daily-life-1513700355 https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chi...
thewhitetulip 9y ago
I read 1984 the book over the weekend and this is truly a disturbing news. At this point in time, I am happy that we don't have such blatant dictatorship in India and that our infra is shit, our software in government is a joke so that they won't be able to build a system like this where Big Brother is looking over everyone via the telescreen. It is scary to not have freedom of thought, expression.
- hux_ 9y ago
  How much time have you spent reading what Chinese people have to say? The American version of freedom of thought and expression doesn't seem to have any problem producing never ending wars, a surveillance state of their own, a dysfunctional culture that produces mindless consumption and celeb worship, a Wall Street and Silicon Valley that openly tells govt - yes what we do has negative uncorrectable effects at population scales, but we are too big to fail so fuck off. This form of freedom isn't scary to you?
  - jackaroe78 9y ago
    I'd love to be able to read what ghe Chinese people have to say
    - stretchwithme 9y ago
      Amen. That is the whole point. Please let the Chinese people express themselves unhindered. I often think we need a new global organization that eventually replaces the UN. It would allow direct voting by everyone on the planet. And if a country's dear leaders don't allow that, that country would not get any vote in that body. Which is much better than pretending to have a democracy with dictators. Especially one where a select set of countries, including 2 dictatorships, can overrule anything.
    - thewhitetulip 9y ago
      Acc to statistics there are three factions of any group. +2.5% extreme to right -2.5% extreme to left 95% middle the +2.5% are extensively happy -2.5% are extensively unhappy 95% are neutral. ordinary Chinese people who struggle to eat two times daily aren't going to care about democracy vs dictatorship. They don't know what they don't know, they don't know that they are living in a bad system because that's what they have seen. contrast that with those who can go to the US (rich), they know that Chinese govt is bad because there is no freedom of expression.
cryoshon 9y ago
honest, good faith question: at what point do we say "no more surveillance" and start smashing cameras? the thoughts "we are free" and "total surveillance when in public" are incompatible...
- ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/shortcuts/2013/jan/25/game-destroy-cctv-cameras-berlin https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/shortcuts/2013/jan/2...
- ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
  You might also want to know that in Christiania, the truely free community until recent "normalization", cameras are mostly prohibited. You can still get your camera smashed for filming strangers. See also: https://www.thelocal.dk/20160923/police-instal-cameras-in-christianias-pusher-street https://www.thelocal.dk/20160923/police-instal-cameras-in-ch... People routinely tear down CCTVs here and in other truely free aka anarchist communities. Another widely known community, Exarcheia, prohibits cameras too.
- shrimp_emoji 9y ago
  Does freedom == privacy? I'd argue privacy is merely a facet of freedom, but public privacy is something I don't think our society is designed to support. The only places I expect privacy are in my home and on the Internet (such as it can be). In public, people who anonymize themselves (e.g., with masks or unmarked vehicles) most often seek privacy for criminal reasons (e.g., thieves or violent protesters). Hence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws But then a lot of Middle Eastern women seem to usually get away with it in places. If we decide that giving up public privacy is palatable (which you may not), only then can we move on to cameras. If we decide they're too powerful of a surveillance tool, law enforcement bodies are going to have to do a lot more hiring to deter crime! And China's bathrooms will need paper dispenser attendants. Oh, and adopt a no-cellphone Stallman policy or... legislate absolutely Zero Tracking(TM) carrier tower service or something.
  - 9y ago
pmarreck 9y ago
It's almost like they banned the book 1984 over there and never lived in East Germany :P
pcurve 9y ago
This is automation of what's already being done, but at larger scale. My father used to do a lot of business in China. He has a lot of interesting stories, but one of my favorites is one about how he was under constant surveillance by government employees and party members. They would monitor his movements and keep logs. He knew this because some didn't even bother keeping it discrete. He'd see the same guys over and over, and they would whip out a note pad and write things down. Labor cost was cheap back then to do this type of low-tech surveillance.
- murukesh_s 9y ago
  These are two different things IMO. In what I understand this is an isolated usage of face recognition to replace a manned booth with automation. The underlying need for manned booth may be questionable, but it's cultural so let's leave it aside and look at the possibilities of automation, especially when AI is so hot and threatening to eat into our jobs. In this case there were human employees behind the dispenser to notice that toilet paper was issued more that once to same person within a minute or so and he is pocketing it(you may think it's toilet paper, but it's more that a billion population and theft is a theft). Now with facial recognition they can eliminate that job done by a human and make it compeletly automatic. Of course they do use face recognition or other forms of AI to track civilians (as seen from some videos openly put in YouTube) for surveillance but which govt isn't?
  - vageli 9y ago
    > Of course they do use face recognition or other forms of AI to track civilians (as seen from some videos openly put in YouTube) for surveillance but which govt isn't? How is reasonable? Does genocide become okay if multiple countries are committing it simultaneously?
    - murukesh_s 9y ago
      Not at all, but the overall sentiment in the comments were biased towards Chinese govt's mass surveillance program, which is a different beast than the article was about. What I was mentioning is this particular instance is a good practical non-surveillance use of face recognition..
lovelearning 9y ago
As a citizen of a country that is somewhat oppressed by our government, I think there is a lot that can be done by our tech community to democratize such technologies and put surveillance powers in the hands of people. In the country I live in, federal and local governments are peopled by employees most of whom tend to be some combination of such "fine" words as venal, corrupt, rent-seeking, dishonest, scammy, sadistic, rude and the like. There's probably more crimes and unethical activities being done by government employees than any other group. I think adverse effects on our society from them is much higher than people we normally term as criminals. In that sense, I think of our governments as actively adversarial and hostile to our society. I don't have any direct experience living in other countries, but from what I read about other countries in media, blogs and discussion forums, governments that behave in adversarial hostile manner towards their own societies seem to be the norm in underdeveloped and developing countries around the world. As an article I read recently pointed out, such governments have rules and laws to make their societies obey them and their needs, but rarely legislate laws that can balance the asymmetry of power, such as whistleblower laws, citizen information acts or independence in criminal investigations. That's why I think there is a lot that can be done by our tech community to democratize such technologies and put surveillance powers in the hands of people. If the residents of a locality decide to track their local government employees to collect proof of unethical activities using a peer-to-peer mesh of their private cameras (for example, uncovering unethical financial activities such as misuse of taxes on unnecessary contract works), I think we should provide such software systems that are easily available for - and usable by - everybody. The fear of adversarial surveillance can work in both directions. The same fear that governments use to curb dissidents or critics can also help curb or deter government's unethical activities when people are empowered to create that fear. Even the most rudimentary information about technologies and procedures that can empower oppressed people is severely lacking. For example, citizens writing and exposing government abuse is probably one of the most basic forms of democratic empowerment. Governments curtail such basic freedoms using laws that address defamation or sedition, using powers to punish such criticism through extradition and interpol agreements, and using powers to shut down such content with cooperation from providers such as ISPs, Google, FB, Twitter, or AWS. It would be empowering to a large volume of humanity if there's a queryable up-to-date database that can answer the seemingly simple question "where and how can I safely express my opinions about my government without being shut down or being punished?" A database of web hosts and other infra around the world with all relevant information about extradition and other legal aspects between the querying user's country and the hosting country, so that every citizen in any country can express themselves without fear of being censored or punished. I searched hard for such information in the past, but couldn't find anything much. I think such democratization can happen only if principled techs voluntarily donate time to work on them, and focus on peer-to-peer architectural principles. Tor is a good example of such democratization, but many more are needed, and some of them - like the database above, basic identity recognition, ANPR - seem to me to be low-hanging fruits that can be solved through crowdsourcing and peer-to-peer storage and processing.
EGreg 9y ago
I am worried this is just the beginning. Once control of the masses is centralized in one place, it will be too tempting to tighten the screws - or just screw around - with some or all people. Want to make everyone dance to a new law? Easy peasy. Limit bathroom breaks? No sweat. Even enforcement can be made more "painless" via machine learning: Gradually, a model of people’s behavior takes shape. “Once you identify a criminal or a suspect, then you look at their connections with other people,” he said. “If another person has multiple connections, they also become suspicious.” Simply cut off that person's credit cards and WeChat accounts etc. Anyone seen helping this person get food to eat is similarly penalized. Pretty soon the person will learn to obey the system or starve. In fact it will be a nice Pavlovian proportional response. Each infraction is punished by some limitation of your ability to transact. And voila -- a population of docile adults, perfectly conditioned by an ever more efficient system to do whatever the new laws say they should. Just like drones make war less costly, this will make law enforcement less costly, leading to a proliferation of "easy"-to-enforce laws.
- sdiepend 9y ago
  I guess we will have to escape into virtual realities(illegaly hosted ofcourse).
grondilu 9y ago
I get all the worries about monitoring human lives, but you have to admit that from an anthropological point of view, it is absolutely priceless. If that data is ever given to scientists, we'll get to learn a lot. That really makes me think it might just be worth it.
b1daly 9y ago
Is Chinese public sentiment in favor of this ever increasing surveillance? As an American, this is horrifying. But given the reports of the high levels of crime and corruption, maybe citizens feel like it’s a net benefit. I wonder if a mass movement to wear masks, of some kind, would be enough to at least put a damper on such pervasive surveillance.
- DashRattlesnake 9y ago
  > Is Chinese public sentiment in favor of this ever increasing surveillance? How would you know? They have an internet that's openly censors and filled with pro-government propaganda. Many of those articles are basically cheer-leading for the technological infra structure for further control, such as paying for everything on your phone with WeChat and the planned social credit system. These articles play up the convenience to the people while leaving unsaid the surveillance and control implications. I'd also guess they're unlikely to allow Western-run surveys to be taken and even if you tried to conduct one, the people would tell you what they think the government wants you to hear.
- lakechfoma 9y ago
  I asked coworkers (techies in the US) what they thought about this and surveillance over wechat etc, and they shrugged and said "I didnt know, but sounds like itll stop crime, thats good. Doesnt the US do stuff like this too?"
doctorstupid 9y ago
Perhaps that toilet paper dispenser with facial (faecal?) recognition might be hinting at the future of retail. I can imagine people walking into supermarkets, picking their items, and then simply leaving through the doors. Stealing will occur when a face isn't attached to enough credits. Ditto for public transportation. Sounds terrible to me.
- IanPBann 9y ago
  This is very similar to the Amazon Go store currently being trialed by Amazon employees in Seattle. You check in to the store upon entering using the Amazon Go app, pick your items, then simply walk out. The store tracks what items you have on you then charges your account on exiting. The only 'feature' missing from real life compared to your imagined scenario is using facial recognition to automatically determine who is in the store.
mih 9y ago
For those who want to see the system in action, take a look at this video by a BBC correspondent - http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-42297153/surveillance-state http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-42297153/surveil.... In a small experiment, as soon as an alert is issued, the reporter is identified via facial recognition and apprehended within minutes as he walks through the city.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- personlurking 9y ago
  Video in link doesn't work for me. This seems to be the same report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNf4-d6fDoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNf4-d6fDoY
MechEStudent 9y ago
This has been on the menu for a long time. At least 3 years. Who is surprised at this?
vikiomega9 9y ago
Reading the comments here, I wonder how many are aware of the use of social harmony which justifies this type of tech and why that core thesis is not identified and argued upon when compared to "more freedom is good". If this thought is too naive please point me to better reading resources
SN76477 9y ago
As the social pressure gets greater I hope to see more talk of freedom and democracy.
woodandsteel 9y ago
>Adrian Zenz, a German academic who has researched ethnic policy and the security state in China’s western province of Xinjiang, said the government craves omnipotence over a vast, complex and restive population. This is short-sighted. The more rigidly a population is controlled, the less flexibility and creativity it can provide when things unexpectedly go wrong. And when all dissenting opinion is suppressed, the government after a while gets the illusion that everyone supports it when actually their is anger underneath waiting to burst out. That is the great advantage of democracy. It is messy, but in the long term far more adaptive. China defenders say total social control is the traditional Chinese way, but what we have today is not at all traditional. Under Confucianism, there was an elaborate set of rules that everyone knew and that everyone, including the top leadership, was obliged to follow. And everyone enforced it on everyone else, and that included that if the masses judged that the leadership was no longer following the rules, they had a right to overthrow it. What you have nowadays with Xi Jinping is a highly secretive government that is making up the rules as it goes along, and is invulnerable to public inspection, much less judgement.

172 points by apta 9y ago

>a toilet roll dispenser at a public facility outside the Temple of Heaven in Beijing reportedly scans faces to keep people from stealing too much paper, I have several questions: 1. Wait, am I stealing paper when I use a public restroom? Are those dispensers like the 'take a penny, leave a penny' tills? 2. Is there an acceptable amount of stealing which the facial recognition limits, or does it alert the management any time that paper is dispensed and leave the judgement to human beings? 3. There are literally cameras in the stalls? 4. How long is its memory? If it shuts me down, can I simply wait for someone else to go in before resuming my theft?

alister 9y ago
It's explained in the linked BBC[1] article: "The machines dispense strips of toilet paper measuring 60 to 70cm (24 to 27.5 inches) to each person. They will not dispense more paper to the same person until after nine minutes have passed. Visitors to the Temple of Heaven park's toilets were taking excessive amounts of toilet paper, some of whom were seen stuffing their bags." The photo in the article shows that the automated paper dispensers are located outside the stalls. Without even talking about an Orwellian surveillance society, this seems like an over-engineered, inconvenient, and expensive solution to a minor problem. [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39324431 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-39324431
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Before you had to bring your own toilet paper (when I visited the Temple of Heaven for the first time in 1999), or you could buy some from the attendant for a few mao (cents). Now that attendants are too expensive, they have to come up with something else, while tourists from the lesser tier cities still see bathroom provided toilet paper as a luxury.
  - blackbagboys 9y ago
    It seems like this problem could more easily be solved with a vending machine than a complicated facial recognition apparatus.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Vending machines still means you’d have to pay for it. Beijing tried to market itself as international-level tourism, but can’t provide free TP? That would be too much loss of face (pun intended).
      - stevenwoo 9y ago
        Might be remembering wrong, but I thought when I went to the Eiffel Tower about 30 years ago, I had to pay to use the bathroom (there was a coin thing on the door to the stalls). That doesn't seem very different to me, though obviously someone can pay to use a toilet and take all the toilet paper if it's on a roll inside.
        michaelt 9y ago
        Bathrooms in London train stations used to be free - but a few years back, a lot of them started charging money. Usually around 20p, sometimes as much as 50p [1]. You can usually avoid paying (many stations have pubs and restaurants with free toilets, for example) but you don't have to go to 30 years ago to find OECD countries charging for public toilets :) [1] https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/07/train-station-toilets-make-millions-every-year https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/07/train-statio...
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        I’m not sure what the point is. I encountered for-pay toilets long before I learned to pack my own TP around in Beijing. It’s just not very comparable. A good day was when you could find one that was sitting and not squatting.
    - strebler 9y ago
- mc32 9y ago
  So.... Can you at least say, "Ok, but I'll pay for more" in the event you find you need more (due to digestive issues)? I mean, unless that 70cm is soft double plied tissue, you are not gonna get many wipes out of it.
  - averagewall 9y ago
    It would be a surprise to find any toilet paper in a public toilet, so someone who needs it will already have their own. Remember, the alternative to this is not unlimited toilet paper but no toilet paper, so it's an improvement for everyone.
    - lovemenot 9y ago
      >> Remember, the alternative to this is not unlimited toilet paper but no toilet paper ... ... but no toilet paper and no surveillance in the crapper ...
NamTaf 9y ago
In many places in China, you either take your own toilet paper or the dispenser is outside the stalls. That is to say, you take a wad of paper before entering the stalls. It stems from when toilet paper was a luxury item.
doug1001 9y ago
Minister to developer: "people are stealing toilet paper from stalls We have to stop this!" developer to Minister: "ideal use case for Machine Learning--i'm on it"
b0rsuk 9y ago
All red herrings. I heard of the toilet paper issue yesterday in a radio programme. It was in context of Lhasa, the capital of Tibet. They combine facial recognition, voice recognition and old fashioned human policemen to instantly stop dissidents. They boast when someone starts shouting "Long live Dalai Llama ! Freedom to Tibet(...)" they shut him down within 60-70 seconds. There are guard posts all over the place. Temples bigger than a phone booth have a police station inside. When they arrested 4 wealthiest inhabitants, it took people months to realize that. The information net is so tight. Surveillance is the goal, not the means. Savings on toilet paper is just a bonus and a convenient excuse. Granted, Lhasa is a hotspot and gets special treatment, but China is all too happy to export these measures to various dictators to promote The China Way. Native chinese blog poster gets a sentence for criticizing the government for sending army patrols to (some other) unruly region. He was saying it alienates the population and is overkill. Your questions would earn you a fine at the very least.
- leggomylibro 9y ago
  Good point, I guess it's pretty facile to make a joke about that sort of thing. Still, though. Poop.
  - b0rsuk 9y ago
    It sounds ridiculous when taken out of context, but the point the radio guest (polish TOK FM statio) was making was: when surveillance is ubiquitous, they can get away with anything. People become used to surveillance and afraid. An isolated rebel can't achieve much, it would take multiple people all over the region to make a difference.
DashRattlesnake 9y ago
> Wait, am I stealing paper when I use a public restroom? In China most public restrooms don't have any toilet paper and you have to bring your own. If this one is stocked with free paper, they may be trying to prevent people from taking extra to use in other restrooms.
- wmertens 9y ago
  Isn't the toilet paper there meant to dry/clean your hand after you used the latter to clean your downstairs area using the water that is also near the toilet?

m3kw9 9y ago

Looks like a big money grab by the companies that touts they can accurately track people

phantomathkg 9y ago
See https://www.sensetime.com/cases#0 https://www.sensetime.com/cases#0 There are already companies that are doing that.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago

In China, the government watches your every move. In the rest of the world, it's your phone. Edit: No, but wait because this is published in the Washington Post, the same Washington Post who was declaring "No Pardon for Edward Snowden" just last September [1]. If its editors are so appalled by surveillance, as we should all certainly be, why are they not as appalled about the mass surveillance used by their own government on their own fellow citizens? _________________ [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/edward-snowden-doesnt-deserve-a-pardon/2016/09/17/ec04d448-7c2e-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html?utm_term=.071591ae401f https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/edward-snowden-doesn...

frozenport 9y ago
The complication is that Mr. Snowden did more than that. He also pilfered, and leaked, information about a separate overseas NSA Internet-monitoring program, PRISM, that was both clearly legal and not clearly threatening to privacy. (It was also not permanent; the law authorizing it expires next year.) Worse — far worse — he also leaked details of basically defensible international intelligence operations: cooperation with Scandinavian services against Russia; spying on the wife of an Osama bin Laden associate; and certain offensive cyber operations in China.
schuke 9y ago
I'm not defending surveillance in the US, but given the very different institutions and political systems involved, maybe different conclusions can be consistent? Snowden is a hero by the way.
- tmalsburg2 9y ago
  Note, though, that most Chinese people will use the exact same argument to justify the actions of their government.
  - ttflee 9y ago
    From what I know about posts circulated in WeChat timeline, I would bet that most Chinese have already been brainwashed that national security should be defended at all cost and that Edward Snowden is a traitor whose action indirectly benefited motherland China, and therefore he should be applauded but not be learned from. Think the Nineteen Eighty-Four.

thisisit 9y ago

There was a video posted by WSJ on how this surveillance is affecting people's life: https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chinas-surveillance-state-overwhelms-daily-life-1513700355 https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chi...

thewhitetulip 9y ago

I read 1984 the book over the weekend and this is truly a disturbing news. At this point in time, I am happy that we don't have such blatant dictatorship in India and that our infra is shit, our software in government is a joke so that they won't be able to build a system like this where Big Brother is looking over everyone via the telescreen. It is scary to not have freedom of thought, expression.

hux_ 9y ago
How much time have you spent reading what Chinese people have to say? The American version of freedom of thought and expression doesn't seem to have any problem producing never ending wars, a surveillance state of their own, a dysfunctional culture that produces mindless consumption and celeb worship, a Wall Street and Silicon Valley that openly tells govt - yes what we do has negative uncorrectable effects at population scales, but we are too big to fail so fuck off. This form of freedom isn't scary to you?
- jackaroe78 9y ago
  I'd love to be able to read what ghe Chinese people have to say
  - stretchwithme 9y ago
    Amen. That is the whole point. Please let the Chinese people express themselves unhindered. I often think we need a new global organization that eventually replaces the UN. It would allow direct voting by everyone on the planet. And if a country's dear leaders don't allow that, that country would not get any vote in that body. Which is much better than pretending to have a democracy with dictators. Especially one where a select set of countries, including 2 dictatorships, can overrule anything.
  - thewhitetulip 9y ago
    Acc to statistics there are three factions of any group. +2.5% extreme to right -2.5% extreme to left 95% middle the +2.5% are extensively happy -2.5% are extensively unhappy 95% are neutral. ordinary Chinese people who struggle to eat two times daily aren't going to care about democracy vs dictatorship. They don't know what they don't know, they don't know that they are living in a bad system because that's what they have seen. contrast that with those who can go to the US (rich), they know that Chinese govt is bad because there is no freedom of expression.

cryoshon 9y ago

honest, good faith question: at what point do we say "no more surveillance" and start smashing cameras? the thoughts "we are free" and "total surveillance when in public" are incompatible...

ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/shortcuts/2013/jan/25/game-destroy-cctv-cameras-berlin https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/shortcuts/2013/jan/2...
ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
You might also want to know that in Christiania, the truely free community until recent "normalization", cameras are mostly prohibited. You can still get your camera smashed for filming strangers. See also: https://www.thelocal.dk/20160923/police-instal-cameras-in-christianias-pusher-street https://www.thelocal.dk/20160923/police-instal-cameras-in-ch... People routinely tear down CCTVs here and in other truely free aka anarchist communities. Another widely known community, Exarcheia, prohibits cameras too.
shrimp_emoji 9y ago
Does freedom == privacy? I'd argue privacy is merely a facet of freedom, but public privacy is something I don't think our society is designed to support. The only places I expect privacy are in my home and on the Internet (such as it can be). In public, people who anonymize themselves (e.g., with masks or unmarked vehicles) most often seek privacy for criminal reasons (e.g., thieves or violent protesters). Hence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws But then a lot of Middle Eastern women seem to usually get away with it in places. If we decide that giving up public privacy is palatable (which you may not), only then can we move on to cameras. If we decide they're too powerful of a surveillance tool, law enforcement bodies are going to have to do a lot more hiring to deter crime! And China's bathrooms will need paper dispenser attendants. Oh, and adopt a no-cellphone Stallman policy or... legislate absolutely Zero Tracking(TM) carrier tower service or something.
- 9y ago

pmarreck 9y ago

It's almost like they banned the book 1984 over there and never lived in East Germany :P

pcurve 9y ago

This is automation of what's already being done, but at larger scale. My father used to do a lot of business in China. He has a lot of interesting stories, but one of my favorites is one about how he was under constant surveillance by government employees and party members. They would monitor his movements and keep logs. He knew this because some didn't even bother keeping it discrete. He'd see the same guys over and over, and they would whip out a note pad and write things down. Labor cost was cheap back then to do this type of low-tech surveillance.

murukesh_s 9y ago
These are two different things IMO. In what I understand this is an isolated usage of face recognition to replace a manned booth with automation. The underlying need for manned booth may be questionable, but it's cultural so let's leave it aside and look at the possibilities of automation, especially when AI is so hot and threatening to eat into our jobs. In this case there were human employees behind the dispenser to notice that toilet paper was issued more that once to same person within a minute or so and he is pocketing it(you may think it's toilet paper, but it's more that a billion population and theft is a theft). Now with facial recognition they can eliminate that job done by a human and make it compeletly automatic. Of course they do use face recognition or other forms of AI to track civilians (as seen from some videos openly put in YouTube) for surveillance but which govt isn't?
- vageli 9y ago
  > Of course they do use face recognition or other forms of AI to track civilians (as seen from some videos openly put in YouTube) for surveillance but which govt isn't? How is reasonable? Does genocide become okay if multiple countries are committing it simultaneously?
  - murukesh_s 9y ago
    Not at all, but the overall sentiment in the comments were biased towards Chinese govt's mass surveillance program, which is a different beast than the article was about. What I was mentioning is this particular instance is a good practical non-surveillance use of face recognition..

lovelearning 9y ago

As a citizen of a country that is somewhat oppressed by our government, I think there is a lot that can be done by our tech community to democratize such technologies and put surveillance powers in the hands of people. In the country I live in, federal and local governments are peopled by employees most of whom tend to be some combination of such "fine" words as venal, corrupt, rent-seeking, dishonest, scammy, sadistic, rude and the like. There's probably more crimes and unethical activities being done by government employees than any other group. I think adverse effects on our society from them is much higher than people we normally term as criminals. In that sense, I think of our governments as actively adversarial and hostile to our society. I don't have any direct experience living in other countries, but from what I read about other countries in media, blogs and discussion forums, governments that behave in adversarial hostile manner towards their own societies seem to be the norm in underdeveloped and developing countries around the world. As an article I read recently pointed out, such governments have rules and laws to make their societies obey them and their needs, but rarely legislate laws that can balance the asymmetry of power, such as whistleblower laws, citizen information acts or independence in criminal investigations. That's why I think there is a lot that can be done by our tech community to democratize such technologies and put surveillance powers in the hands of people. If the residents of a locality decide to track their local government employees to collect proof of unethical activities using a peer-to-peer mesh of their private cameras (for example, uncovering unethical financial activities such as misuse of taxes on unnecessary contract works), I think we should provide such software systems that are easily available for - and usable by - everybody. The fear of adversarial surveillance can work in both directions. The same fear that governments use to curb dissidents or critics can also help curb or deter government's unethical activities when people are empowered to create that fear. Even the most rudimentary information about technologies and procedures that can empower oppressed people is severely lacking. For example, citizens writing and exposing government abuse is probably one of the most basic forms of democratic empowerment. Governments curtail such basic freedoms using laws that address defamation or sedition, using powers to punish such criticism through extradition and interpol agreements, and using powers to shut down such content with cooperation from providers such as ISPs, Google, FB, Twitter, or AWS. It would be empowering to a large volume of humanity if there's a queryable up-to-date database that can answer the seemingly simple question "where and how can I safely express my opinions about my government without being shut down or being punished?" A database of web hosts and other infra around the world with all relevant information about extradition and other legal aspects between the querying user's country and the hosting country, so that every citizen in any country can express themselves without fear of being censored or punished. I searched hard for such information in the past, but couldn't find anything much. I think such democratization can happen only if principled techs voluntarily donate time to work on them, and focus on peer-to-peer architectural principles. Tor is a good example of such democratization, but many more are needed, and some of them - like the database above, basic identity recognition, ANPR - seem to me to be low-hanging fruits that can be solved through crowdsourcing and peer-to-peer storage and processing.

EGreg 9y ago

I am worried this is just the beginning. Once control of the masses is centralized in one place, it will be too tempting to tighten the screws - or just screw around - with some or all people. Want to make everyone dance to a new law? Easy peasy. Limit bathroom breaks? No sweat. Even enforcement can be made more "painless" via machine learning: Gradually, a model of people’s behavior takes shape. “Once you identify a criminal or a suspect, then you look at their connections with other people,” he said. “If another person has multiple connections, they also become suspicious.” Simply cut off that person's credit cards and WeChat accounts etc. Anyone seen helping this person get food to eat is similarly penalized. Pretty soon the person will learn to obey the system or starve. In fact it will be a nice Pavlovian proportional response. Each infraction is punished by some limitation of your ability to transact. And voila -- a population of docile adults, perfectly conditioned by an ever more efficient system to do whatever the new laws say they should. Just like drones make war less costly, this will make law enforcement less costly, leading to a proliferation of "easy"-to-enforce laws.

sdiepend 9y ago
I guess we will have to escape into virtual realities(illegaly hosted ofcourse).

grondilu 9y ago

I get all the worries about monitoring human lives, but you have to admit that from an anthropological point of view, it is absolutely priceless. If that data is ever given to scientists, we'll get to learn a lot. That really makes me think it might just be worth it.

b1daly 9y ago

Is Chinese public sentiment in favor of this ever increasing surveillance? As an American, this is horrifying. But given the reports of the high levels of crime and corruption, maybe citizens feel like it’s a net benefit. I wonder if a mass movement to wear masks, of some kind, would be enough to at least put a damper on such pervasive surveillance.

DashRattlesnake 9y ago
> Is Chinese public sentiment in favor of this ever increasing surveillance? How would you know? They have an internet that's openly censors and filled with pro-government propaganda. Many of those articles are basically cheer-leading for the technological infra structure for further control, such as paying for everything on your phone with WeChat and the planned social credit system. These articles play up the convenience to the people while leaving unsaid the surveillance and control implications. I'd also guess they're unlikely to allow Western-run surveys to be taken and even if you tried to conduct one, the people would tell you what they think the government wants you to hear.
lakechfoma 9y ago
I asked coworkers (techies in the US) what they thought about this and surveillance over wechat etc, and they shrugged and said "I didnt know, but sounds like itll stop crime, thats good. Doesnt the US do stuff like this too?"

doctorstupid 9y ago

Perhaps that toilet paper dispenser with facial (faecal?) recognition might be hinting at the future of retail. I can imagine people walking into supermarkets, picking their items, and then simply leaving through the doors. Stealing will occur when a face isn't attached to enough credits. Ditto for public transportation. Sounds terrible to me.

IanPBann 9y ago
This is very similar to the Amazon Go store currently being trialed by Amazon employees in Seattle. You check in to the store upon entering using the Amazon Go app, pick your items, then simply walk out. The store tracks what items you have on you then charges your account on exiting. The only 'feature' missing from real life compared to your imagined scenario is using facial recognition to automatically determine who is in the store.

mih 9y ago

For those who want to see the system in action, take a look at this video by a BBC correspondent - http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-42297153/surveillance-state http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-42297153/surveil.... In a small experiment, as soon as an alert is issued, the reporter is identified via facial recognition and apprehended within minutes as he walks through the city.

deleted 9y ago
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personlurking 9y ago
Video in link doesn't work for me. This seems to be the same report. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNf4-d6fDoY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNf4-d6fDoY

MechEStudent 9y ago

This has been on the menu for a long time. At least 3 years. Who is surprised at this?

vikiomega9 9y ago

Reading the comments here, I wonder how many are aware of the use of social harmony which justifies this type of tech and why that core thesis is not identified and argued upon when compared to "more freedom is good". If this thought is too naive please point me to better reading resources

SN76477 9y ago

As the social pressure gets greater I hope to see more talk of freedom and democracy.

woodandsteel 9y ago

>Adrian Zenz, a German academic who has researched ethnic policy and the security state in China’s western province of Xinjiang, said the government craves omnipotence over a vast, complex and restive population. This is short-sighted. The more rigidly a population is controlled, the less flexibility and creativity it can provide when things unexpectedly go wrong. And when all dissenting opinion is suppressed, the government after a while gets the illusion that everyone supports it when actually their is anger underneath waiting to burst out. That is the great advantage of democracy. It is messy, but in the long term far more adaptive. China defenders say total social control is the traditional Chinese way, but what we have today is not at all traditional. Under Confucianism, there was an elaborate set of rules that everyone knew and that everyone, including the top leadership, was obliged to follow. And everyone enforced it on everyone else, and that included that if the masses judged that the leadership was no longer following the rules, they had a right to overthrow it. What you have nowadays with Xi Jinping is a highly secretive government that is making up the rules as it goes along, and is invulnerable to public inspection, much less judgement.