12 ms·

To offer a slightly anecdotal counterpoint, if you discard ideological reasons and generous subsidies available in a few markets, I have no idea why anyone woul

To offer a slightly anecdotal counterpoint, if you discard ideological reasons and generous subsidies available in a few markets, I have no idea why anyone would buy an electric car right now. The range and the charging times are still an issue, especially if you don't live in California. The performance of most electric cars is abysmal (straight line speed may be all right, but cornering with the extra weight is just inferior) compared to traditional performance cars and while styling is subjective, the only electric car I've seen that wasn't outright ugly was the BMW i8, and that's a hybrid. That's not to mention the fact that they still carry a severe price premium in most markets. I realize my opinion will be highly controversial in the HN bubble, but I find it to be very common in real life, particularly outside the U.S. Like any future prediction, I'm probably way off, but to me it looks like on the list of vastly overhyped car trends pure electric cars are second only to self-driving cars. I'm sure they'll find specific markets (taxis, urban deliveries, etc.), but I don't see myself switching to an electric car for at least a decade, probably more.

reaperducer 9y ago
In the cities I've lived in over the last 15 years, probably 90% of the taxis have been hybrid. I've seen FedEx, and even Coca-Cola running electric delivery trucks in urban areas. I think a wholesale shift from gas/diesel to electric is a long way off, but certainly it seems that electric/hybrid is the end of compressed natural gas vehicles.
- Animats 9y ago
  Shenzhen just converted their entire bus fleet, 30,000 buses, to all electric.
  - reaperducer 9y ago
    Seattle, Vancouver, and other cities with abundant hydroelectric power have had electric bus fleets since at least the 1960's. Probably earlier. The only difference now is that instead of running wires overhead, you have to install charging stations.
funnelsgun 9y ago
Most non-car folk synonymize performance with acceleration, when in fact acceleration is arguably less important than braking and cornering. After all, what good is being able to go fast in a straight line if you can't brake or carry that speed through the corners?
- keldaris 9y ago
  Exactly. And, with very few and very expensive exceptions, electric cars are useless at this. Electric cars have objective selling points, but I cringe every time I hear someone describe them as having "good performance".
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - danans 9y ago
    Most mid priced ICE cars are also terrible at performance. Comparing a Leaf to a performance car like a BMW or Audi is nonsensical. They are targeted at completely different market segments.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      Performance can also be relative, subjectively. My daily driver, a 2004 model 2.5L turbo diesel long wheelbase six-speed auto T5 Transporter, is at the workshop waiting to have a short length of wire that runs to the starter motor replaced. I'd do it myself, but talk about an inconveniently layed out engine bay. I digress. As far as vans go, it's fun to drive and has a bed in the back! A friend loaned me her 1999 Vectra B[1] wagon, five-speed manual 2.2L 108 kW. Compared to the van, it corners like it's on rails! With myself behind the wheel of the Vectra I reckon I'd eat the E90 320i 115 kW[2] auto she replaced it with. So, neither of these three vehicles are performance cars, but they're all quite fun to drive. Though I do toy with the idea of getting a Miata. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Vectra#Vectra_B_(1995–2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Vectra#Vectra_B_(1995–200... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(E90)#Petrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(E90)#Petrol
Spooky23 9y ago
I think you will be right, until there is another oil price shock. Then people will flip quickly, as electricity comes from domestic sources.
- nine_k 9y ago
  In the US, much of oil can be domestic, too. In Europe, things are pretty different (except maybe Norway).
  - danans 9y ago
    But the price of oil is tied to the global market, regardless of whether it is produced in the US.
    - markvdb 9y ago
      Only consumers in Western Europe pay ~2.5 to 3 times as much for fuel due to differences in taxation.[0][1] [0] https://www.touring.be/nl/artikels/benzineprijzen-europa https://www.touring.be/nl/artikels/benzineprijzen-europa [1] https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/
jblow 9y ago
Electric cars are baller. They are fun to drive. My Tesla Roadster does not corner like a Porsche 911, it's true, but it does not matter for everyday driving, because it is so effortlessly faster than anything else on the road, when I pull away from a stoplight, whoever I want to cut in front of is 50 feet behind me. Instant acceleration is worth a lot, too. For comparison: My previous car was a BMW M3. I would much, much rather drive my 2010 Tesla Roadster, and that is an old car at this point ... 2020 Tesla Roadster is going to be amazing. > The range and the charging times are still an issue, especially if you don't live in California. My roadster goes 340 miles on one charge. The upcoming 2020 Roadster goes 620 miles on one charge. Admittedly, battery capacity costs money. Price-sensitivity is the reason most of these newly-announced cars don't have as much range. It is not a technical limitation. And as with any such technology component, battery costs will continue to drop over time.
- keldaris 9y ago
  > Admittedly, battery capacity costs money. Price-sensitivity is the reason most of these newly-announced cars don't have as much range. It is not a technical limitation. I disagree. The costs will drop, sure, but that's not particularly relevant for performance cars. The weight, on the other hand, will only increase with every bit of range you add. While electric cars can easily produce enough torque to still accelerate quickly (though how much range you'll really have driving that way is another question...), even with adaptive suspensions using magnetorheological dampers you can't cheat basic physics in corners. And that's why I'd much rather have a BMW M3 (well, I'd prefer one of the AWD 911s, a V10 R8 or even an Audi RS4, but YMMV) than any electric car. Even if you value raw straight line acceleration that much, do note that the Tesla Roadster doesn't really compete with the BMW M3. You can get ICE vehicles with much better acceleration than an M3 that are still vastly superior in terms of handling to any Tesla.
  - danans 9y ago
    > The costs will drop, sure, but that's not particularly relevant for performance cars. Conversely, cost is highly relevant for non performance cars, which, from the perspective of displacing transportation petroleum use, are far more important. Once the typical EV range reaches the limit that a person can comfortably drive without taking a long break (~300 miles?), range anxiety becomes a non-issue.
sitkack 9y ago
> The performance of most electric cars is abysmal The Leaf is the only car I have driven where the wife has said, "owe! stop doing that! my eyeballs hurt!" I sense you may be bullshitting us.
Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago
For me, the biggest reason is not wanting to pollute the air in the city contributing to thousands of cancer deaths. Perhaps you think that's an "ideological reason". I find that rather sad, as to me it's clearly an ethical reason, which shouldn't be tied to a specific ideology. Unless you think if you're conservative, poisoning your fellow citizens is OK. I hope most conservatives don't think like that. Anyway, other reasons are that electric cars accelerate more, won't be banned from cities like Paris, etc. any time soon, won't be affected by possible spikes in oil prices. Range and charging times are of course the biggest drawback, but it's getting better rather fast.
- rimliu 9y ago
  Modern petrol cars exhaust water vapor and carbon dioxide anyway.
- keldaris 9y ago
  I wasn't making an argument about ideology or ethics, merely pointing out that my post was focused on the immediately measurable objective characteristics of cars - price and performance. I do recognize that people often buy electric cars due to ethical or philosophical preferences, and that's fine. Personally, I'm not a conservative and am generally concerned about air pollution in cities, though I don't think new non-diesel ICE vehicles are a primary issue in that regard in most cities in the world (there are exceptions, as always).
  - andlier 9y ago
    Actually most new (<5 year old) petrol cars use direct injection which emits much more fine soot particles than diesel with particle filter. In EU particle filter for petrol cars is only mandatory from 2017. Also worrysome that most of the particles are of the ultrafine type which is the most dangerous in terms of cancer-risk etc. https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engine...
unknown_apostle 9y ago
Yes. Nobody doubts the future is electric (or partially fuel cell-based). But at least for the next half decade or so, we'll still see lots of internal combustion engines being produced. There will also still be some progress in making those engines cleaner and more efficient. As a sidenote: that's why I liked platinum and rhodium as speculative investments in 2017 and I like them again for 2018. Platinum especially has been declared dead, exactly because of this "future is imminent" sentiment and nobody will supposedly need catalytic converters anymore. Platinum has been comatose for years on end now, despite production shortages and the supply side risk coming from South Africa's politics. Most platinum mines are operating at a loss.
Shivetya 9y ago
To expand on something you stated, range is still very much an issue. How even "two hundred miles" became acceptable I will never know, apparently that is what marketing was told to push but the general public isn't buying into that. Worse, that two hundred mile range is only good in mild to warm conditions. throw in winter conditions and it plummets. plus until automakers all adopt a higher voltage charging system similar to where Porsche is going adding range will just exaggerate how long it takes to charge. Higher voltage charging is easier than higher amperage from both the size of cables internal and external as well as cooling. a trip in even the fastest available charging cars requires an hour diversion/stop per two hundred miles on average. this needs to get down to fifteen minutes with a range pushing beyond three hundred in winter. instead of trying to encourage employers to install chargers at work more effort should be made toward the electrification of school and city bus lines. everyone who has ever been caught behind one knows the pollution factories they appear to be. initial up front costs will be high but it will keep districts insulated from volatile gasoline and diesel prices. delivery trucks already might be headed there but government investment into this area should be by example and where better than to have children on electric buses to tell mommy and daddy
- cjwhite 9y ago
  I'll take 200 miles of range and the ease of plugging in every evening at home over 1,000 miles of range and the necessity of going to a gas station.
  - scarhill 9y ago
    That works as long as you never need to drive more than 100 miles from home.
    - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
      If I am doing that I probably want extra cargo capacity and will want to rent a van

reaperducer 9y ago

In the cities I've lived in over the last 15 years, probably 90% of the taxis have been hybrid. I've seen FedEx, and even Coca-Cola running electric delivery trucks in urban areas. I think a wholesale shift from gas/diesel to electric is a long way off, but certainly it seems that electric/hybrid is the end of compressed natural gas vehicles.

Animats 9y ago
Shenzhen just converted their entire bus fleet, 30,000 buses, to all electric.
- reaperducer 9y ago
  Seattle, Vancouver, and other cities with abundant hydroelectric power have had electric bus fleets since at least the 1960's. Probably earlier. The only difference now is that instead of running wires overhead, you have to install charging stations.

funnelsgun 9y ago

Most non-car folk synonymize performance with acceleration, when in fact acceleration is arguably less important than braking and cornering. After all, what good is being able to go fast in a straight line if you can't brake or carry that speed through the corners?

keldaris 9y ago
Exactly. And, with very few and very expensive exceptions, electric cars are useless at this. Electric cars have objective selling points, but I cringe every time I hear someone describe them as having "good performance".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- danans 9y ago
  Most mid priced ICE cars are also terrible at performance. Comparing a Leaf to a performance car like a BMW or Audi is nonsensical. They are targeted at completely different market segments.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Performance can also be relative, subjectively. My daily driver, a 2004 model 2.5L turbo diesel long wheelbase six-speed auto T5 Transporter, is at the workshop waiting to have a short length of wire that runs to the starter motor replaced. I'd do it myself, but talk about an inconveniently layed out engine bay. I digress. As far as vans go, it's fun to drive and has a bed in the back! A friend loaned me her 1999 Vectra B[1] wagon, five-speed manual 2.2L 108 kW. Compared to the van, it corners like it's on rails! With myself behind the wheel of the Vectra I reckon I'd eat the E90 320i 115 kW[2] auto she replaced it with. So, neither of these three vehicles are performance cars, but they're all quite fun to drive. Though I do toy with the idea of getting a Miata. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Vectra#Vectra_B_(1995–2002) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Vectra#Vectra_B_(1995–200... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(E90)#Petrol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(E90)#Petrol

Spooky23 9y ago

I think you will be right, until there is another oil price shock. Then people will flip quickly, as electricity comes from domestic sources.

nine_k 9y ago
In the US, much of oil can be domestic, too. In Europe, things are pretty different (except maybe Norway).
- danans 9y ago
  But the price of oil is tied to the global market, regardless of whether it is produced in the US.
  - markvdb 9y ago
    Only consumers in Western Europe pay ~2.5 to 3 times as much for fuel due to differences in taxation.[0][1] [0] https://www.touring.be/nl/artikels/benzineprijzen-europa https://www.touring.be/nl/artikels/benzineprijzen-europa [1] https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/

jblow 9y ago

Electric cars are baller. They are fun to drive. My Tesla Roadster does not corner like a Porsche 911, it's true, but it does not matter for everyday driving, because it is so effortlessly faster than anything else on the road, when I pull away from a stoplight, whoever I want to cut in front of is 50 feet behind me. Instant acceleration is worth a lot, too. For comparison: My previous car was a BMW M3. I would much, much rather drive my 2010 Tesla Roadster, and that is an old car at this point ... 2020 Tesla Roadster is going to be amazing. > The range and the charging times are still an issue, especially if you don't live in California. My roadster goes 340 miles on one charge. The upcoming 2020 Roadster goes 620 miles on one charge. Admittedly, battery capacity costs money. Price-sensitivity is the reason most of these newly-announced cars don't have as much range. It is not a technical limitation. And as with any such technology component, battery costs will continue to drop over time.

keldaris 9y ago
> Admittedly, battery capacity costs money. Price-sensitivity is the reason most of these newly-announced cars don't have as much range. It is not a technical limitation. I disagree. The costs will drop, sure, but that's not particularly relevant for performance cars. The weight, on the other hand, will only increase with every bit of range you add. While electric cars can easily produce enough torque to still accelerate quickly (though how much range you'll really have driving that way is another question...), even with adaptive suspensions using magnetorheological dampers you can't cheat basic physics in corners. And that's why I'd much rather have a BMW M3 (well, I'd prefer one of the AWD 911s, a V10 R8 or even an Audi RS4, but YMMV) than any electric car. Even if you value raw straight line acceleration that much, do note that the Tesla Roadster doesn't really compete with the BMW M3. You can get ICE vehicles with much better acceleration than an M3 that are still vastly superior in terms of handling to any Tesla.
- danans 9y ago
  > The costs will drop, sure, but that's not particularly relevant for performance cars. Conversely, cost is highly relevant for non performance cars, which, from the perspective of displacing transportation petroleum use, are far more important. Once the typical EV range reaches the limit that a person can comfortably drive without taking a long break (~300 miles?), range anxiety becomes a non-issue.

sitkack 9y ago

> The performance of most electric cars is abysmal The Leaf is the only car I have driven where the wife has said, "owe! stop doing that! my eyeballs hurt!" I sense you may be bullshitting us.

Al-Khwarizmi 9y ago

For me, the biggest reason is not wanting to pollute the air in the city contributing to thousands of cancer deaths. Perhaps you think that's an "ideological reason". I find that rather sad, as to me it's clearly an ethical reason, which shouldn't be tied to a specific ideology. Unless you think if you're conservative, poisoning your fellow citizens is OK. I hope most conservatives don't think like that. Anyway, other reasons are that electric cars accelerate more, won't be banned from cities like Paris, etc. any time soon, won't be affected by possible spikes in oil prices. Range and charging times are of course the biggest drawback, but it's getting better rather fast.

rimliu 9y ago
Modern petrol cars exhaust water vapor and carbon dioxide anyway.
keldaris 9y ago
I wasn't making an argument about ideology or ethics, merely pointing out that my post was focused on the immediately measurable objective characteristics of cars - price and performance. I do recognize that people often buy electric cars due to ethical or philosophical preferences, and that's fine. Personally, I'm not a conservative and am generally concerned about air pollution in cities, though I don't think new non-diesel ICE vehicles are a primary issue in that regard in most cities in the world (there are exceptions, as always).
- andlier 9y ago
  Actually most new (<5 year old) petrol cars use direct injection which emits much more fine soot particles than diesel with particle filter. In EU particle filter for petrol cars is only mandatory from 2017. Also worrysome that most of the particles are of the ultrafine type which is the most dangerous in terms of cancer-risk etc. https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engines-cause-more-air-pollution-dirty-diesels https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/new-petrol-engine...

unknown_apostle 9y ago

Yes. Nobody doubts the future is electric (or partially fuel cell-based). But at least for the next half decade or so, we'll still see lots of internal combustion engines being produced. There will also still be some progress in making those engines cleaner and more efficient. As a sidenote: that's why I liked platinum and rhodium as speculative investments in 2017 and I like them again for 2018. Platinum especially has been declared dead, exactly because of this "future is imminent" sentiment and nobody will supposedly need catalytic converters anymore. Platinum has been comatose for years on end now, despite production shortages and the supply side risk coming from South Africa's politics. Most platinum mines are operating at a loss.

Shivetya 9y ago

To expand on something you stated, range is still very much an issue. How even "two hundred miles" became acceptable I will never know, apparently that is what marketing was told to push but the general public isn't buying into that. Worse, that two hundred mile range is only good in mild to warm conditions. throw in winter conditions and it plummets. plus until automakers all adopt a higher voltage charging system similar to where Porsche is going adding range will just exaggerate how long it takes to charge. Higher voltage charging is easier than higher amperage from both the size of cables internal and external as well as cooling. a trip in even the fastest available charging cars requires an hour diversion/stop per two hundred miles on average. this needs to get down to fifteen minutes with a range pushing beyond three hundred in winter. instead of trying to encourage employers to install chargers at work more effort should be made toward the electrification of school and city bus lines. everyone who has ever been caught behind one knows the pollution factories they appear to be. initial up front costs will be high but it will keep districts insulated from volatile gasoline and diesel prices. delivery trucks already might be headed there but government investment into this area should be by example and where better than to have children on electric buses to tell mommy and daddy

cjwhite 9y ago
I'll take 200 miles of range and the ease of plugging in every evening at home over 1,000 miles of range and the necessity of going to a gas station.
- scarhill 9y ago
  That works as long as you never need to drive more than 100 miles from home.
  - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
    If I am doing that I probably want extra cargo capacity and will want to rent a van