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I'm sure they are getting their playbook from their Chinese friends. Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most libe

I'm sure they are getting their playbook from their Chinese friends. Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most liberal of all governments in comparison. Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, all heavy handed as regards the Internet. Russia, China, most of the former Balkan states, Turkey... Brazil, even.

tehlike 9y ago
Internet is just one channel where you can express opinions. Many journalists are jailed even today based on their opinions, and I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve.
- cooper12 9y ago
  "Us tech people" are the ones enabling them to censor though. From the article: "Facebook this year removed 159 accounts at Vietnam’s behest, while YouTube took down 4,500 videos, or 90 percent of what the government requested".
  - olalonde 9y ago
    That's nonsense. Countries are responsible for making up their own laws, not foreign techies.
    - geofft 9y ago
      I think it behooves all techies to reread and really think about the Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace every now and then: https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence
      - olalonde 9y ago
        I am deeply against censorship, consider myself a libertarian and wouldn't personally work for Facebook. I deeply sympathise with this manifesto. But I'm also a consequentialist and I believe the Vietnamese are overall better served with a censored Facebook/Youtube than no Facebook/Youtube at all. I also don't believe that getting 100% of techies on our side is a realistic strategy.
        tehlike 9y ago
        It definitely isn't. There's also the "something you build can be used for evil or for good" aspect, too. When I say enable, I am talking about stateless nonprofits creating platforms where people can communicate freely, express themselves freely, and if they need to - organize protests to protect their freedoms. Things like Signal are great steps toward it, but we need more.
    - lostlogin 9y ago
      Just following orders huh?
    - tehlike 9y ago
      Most of the time, these companies are actually stronger than the government, even if they are not, there are a lot of ways they can choose to resist the orders.
    - tehlike 9y ago
      If you are from the US, be aware that even United States spies on its citizens, and recently-activated social media screening is just another step towards it.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        sorry to break it to you some citizens can be traitors relaying on the "I know his people" and he's a good chap belongs to the right club does't work as a vetting procedure as we found in the UK with the cambridge 5 and others
        tehlike 9y ago
        I agree, but this is a slippery slope, and be mindful that warrantless surveillance is technically illegal (or not, i don't know what patriot act brought these days). It's a slippery slope because there is no end to it. It starts with surveillance - which evades privacy, then comes your freedom of speech, then your freedom to choose.
        walshemj 9y ago
        Oh I agree on warrantless wire tapping the one of problems with the states is they don't separate the Police role of the FBI from is Security / Contra Espionage.
  - digitalzombie 9y ago
    On that same thread, Cisco built the Chinese Golden Shield which is what now is refer to the great chinese firewall iirc.
- yipopov 9y ago
  >I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve. It's clearly not a technical problem, so it's foolish to try to find a technical solution. This kind of silicon valley elitist Tellerism is doing more harm than good in cases like these.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    Giving them a platform to freely communicate is not nothing. I think you were looking for an excuse to blame sv people.
  - shiven 9y ago
    Actually, it is. It is very much a technical problem. Technology has not yet provided a super-fast, truly decentralized, perfectly uncensorable “Internet for All” solution. If we had that, a lot of this discussion would be moot. Someone in Dalat could teach Vietnamese to any number of foreigners, without any adversary being the wiser. Anyone in China could read up on Tiannenmen Square or the “Free Tibet” movement without fear of arrest. People in Indonesia could watch any film they wish. “Laws” in any country on this planet are not immutable, immaculate/divine, absolute, or axiomatic. They can and should be changed — regardless of the concerns of those in power. And the only reliable way to ensure change is education, information and discussion — all unfettered, uncensored and unbridled. Until technology guarantees that, we as ‘techies’ have not delivered. And please, don’t tell me about Tor and “teh darkwubs” — that is not a realistic solution for 99% of the online population — too slow and still not bulletproof. Technology needs to do better.
    - tehlike 9y ago
      Very well said, thank you. As for tor and the dark web, more important than being fast & solid is ease of use. If we design platforms, protocols, etc by default to be censorship free, then many projects to fill gaps will follow. Tor was an attempt, but failed at widespread adoption, maybe we need something smaller to begin with. E2E encrypted chat apps was a good first step, we need more. We take many things here in the US for granted. When I go back to my home country, I feel odd sense of insecurity, now imagine people living there for their whole lives - they take censorship as normal and go with it. With censorship comes with censored imaginations, research and so on.
nradov 9y ago
Vietnam and China aren't exactly friends. They fought a war in 1979 and have ongoing territorial disputes.
- tuananh 9y ago
  more like "special administrative region" of china. thought not many people want to believe that, China has very strong political influence in Vietnam
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    That’s a breathtaking over simplification of their relationship. It’s a very complex and mildly antagonistic relationship while, yes, also having strong cultural and political influence. Your characterization is incredibly broad however and - taken as written - quite inaccurate
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - cageface 9y ago
      I've been living in Vietnam for over seven years now and spoken to countless locals about this and it's way more than mildly antagonistic.
      - santoriv 9y ago
        Agreed. The general sentiment that I've gotten from talking to people is that they are worried that either China will invade Vietnam (and hope that the US will protect them) or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China.
        tuananh 9y ago
        > or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China. That's what im' trying to say as well
oh-kumudo 9y ago
Democracy is an import to (East) Asian society. The Confucian authoritarian philosophy had been the norm for almost 2000 years. By default, more power are delegated to the government, and people are oblivious or reluctant to question it.
hktrl 9y ago
Internet has to been regulated there is no doubt. If not we might have a Trump copy in any country. What a nightmare
tzahola 9y ago
Careful with that high horse buddy! Progressive western countries aren’t exactly new to internet censorship either: https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-raid-hate-incitement https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-...
- fixermark 9y ago
  To view the issue through the lens of extremes: blocking easy search-engine access to child pornography is a form of censorship, and nearly nobody thinks it's a bad idea. All large companies execute some level of censorship and all countries have standards of decorum. The question is really how much censorship one tolerates, not whether any at all is tolerable.
coldtea 9y ago
With the pervasive surveillance, paid troll campaigns from all parties, operations to influence media from agencies, millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages, etc, the US is not some paragon of internet freedom either...
- jryle70 9y ago
  What you said is exactly the signs of internet freedom. If the government had the monopoly of the media they wouldn't have to have "operations to influence media from agencies". If anti-net-neutrality of the media there wouldn't be "millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages". Do you want to try to set up an anti-corruption FB account in Vietnam and see what happen?
taoistextremist 9y ago
>Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most liberal of all governments in comparison. I feel like this isn't really true; Taiwan, and arguably South Korea have more liberal societies and governments.

tehlike 9y ago

Internet is just one channel where you can express opinions. Many journalists are jailed even today based on their opinions, and I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve.

cooper12 9y ago
"Us tech people" are the ones enabling them to censor though. From the article: "Facebook this year removed 159 accounts at Vietnam’s behest, while YouTube took down 4,500 videos, or 90 percent of what the government requested".
- olalonde 9y ago
  That's nonsense. Countries are responsible for making up their own laws, not foreign techies.
  - geofft 9y ago
    I think it behooves all techies to reread and really think about the Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace every now and then: https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence
    - olalonde 9y ago
      I am deeply against censorship, consider myself a libertarian and wouldn't personally work for Facebook. I deeply sympathise with this manifesto. But I'm also a consequentialist and I believe the Vietnamese are overall better served with a censored Facebook/Youtube than no Facebook/Youtube at all. I also don't believe that getting 100% of techies on our side is a realistic strategy.
      - tehlike 9y ago
        It definitely isn't. There's also the "something you build can be used for evil or for good" aspect, too. When I say enable, I am talking about stateless nonprofits creating platforms where people can communicate freely, express themselves freely, and if they need to - organize protests to protect their freedoms. Things like Signal are great steps toward it, but we need more.
  - lostlogin 9y ago
    Just following orders huh?
  - tehlike 9y ago
    Most of the time, these companies are actually stronger than the government, even if they are not, there are a lot of ways they can choose to resist the orders.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    If you are from the US, be aware that even United States spies on its citizens, and recently-activated social media screening is just another step towards it.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      sorry to break it to you some citizens can be traitors relaying on the "I know his people" and he's a good chap belongs to the right club does't work as a vetting procedure as we found in the UK with the cambridge 5 and others
      - tehlike 9y ago
        I agree, but this is a slippery slope, and be mindful that warrantless surveillance is technically illegal (or not, i don't know what patriot act brought these days). It's a slippery slope because there is no end to it. It starts with surveillance - which evades privacy, then comes your freedom of speech, then your freedom to choose.
        walshemj 9y ago
        Oh I agree on warrantless wire tapping the one of problems with the states is they don't separate the Police role of the FBI from is Security / Contra Espionage.
- digitalzombie 9y ago
  On that same thread, Cisco built the Chinese Golden Shield which is what now is refer to the great chinese firewall iirc.
yipopov 9y ago
>I feel it's on us tech people to enable them the free speech they deserve. It's clearly not a technical problem, so it's foolish to try to find a technical solution. This kind of silicon valley elitist Tellerism is doing more harm than good in cases like these.
- tehlike 9y ago
  Giving them a platform to freely communicate is not nothing. I think you were looking for an excuse to blame sv people.
- shiven 9y ago
  Actually, it is. It is very much a technical problem. Technology has not yet provided a super-fast, truly decentralized, perfectly uncensorable “Internet for All” solution. If we had that, a lot of this discussion would be moot. Someone in Dalat could teach Vietnamese to any number of foreigners, without any adversary being the wiser. Anyone in China could read up on Tiannenmen Square or the “Free Tibet” movement without fear of arrest. People in Indonesia could watch any film they wish. “Laws” in any country on this planet are not immutable, immaculate/divine, absolute, or axiomatic. They can and should be changed — regardless of the concerns of those in power. And the only reliable way to ensure change is education, information and discussion — all unfettered, uncensored and unbridled. Until technology guarantees that, we as ‘techies’ have not delivered. And please, don’t tell me about Tor and “teh darkwubs” — that is not a realistic solution for 99% of the online population — too slow and still not bulletproof. Technology needs to do better.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    Very well said, thank you. As for tor and the dark web, more important than being fast & solid is ease of use. If we design platforms, protocols, etc by default to be censorship free, then many projects to fill gaps will follow. Tor was an attempt, but failed at widespread adoption, maybe we need something smaller to begin with. E2E encrypted chat apps was a good first step, we need more. We take many things here in the US for granted. When I go back to my home country, I feel odd sense of insecurity, now imagine people living there for their whole lives - they take censorship as normal and go with it. With censorship comes with censored imaginations, research and so on.

nradov 9y ago

Vietnam and China aren't exactly friends. They fought a war in 1979 and have ongoing territorial disputes.

tuananh 9y ago
more like "special administrative region" of china. thought not many people want to believe that, China has very strong political influence in Vietnam
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  That’s a breathtaking over simplification of their relationship. It’s a very complex and mildly antagonistic relationship while, yes, also having strong cultural and political influence. Your characterization is incredibly broad however and - taken as written - quite inaccurate
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - cageface 9y ago
    I've been living in Vietnam for over seven years now and spoken to countless locals about this and it's way more than mildly antagonistic.
    - santoriv 9y ago
      Agreed. The general sentiment that I've gotten from talking to people is that they are worried that either China will invade Vietnam (and hope that the US will protect them) or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China.
      - tuananh 9y ago
        > or that the Vietnamese government has already "sold out" their country to China. That's what im' trying to say as well

oh-kumudo 9y ago

Democracy is an import to (East) Asian society. The Confucian authoritarian philosophy had been the norm for almost 2000 years. By default, more power are delegated to the government, and people are oblivious or reluctant to question it.

hktrl 9y ago

Internet has to been regulated there is no doubt. If not we might have a Trump copy in any country. What a nightmare

tzahola 9y ago

Careful with that high horse buddy! Progressive western countries aren’t exactly new to internet censorship either: https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-raid-hate-incitement https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-...

fixermark 9y ago
To view the issue through the lens of extremes: blocking easy search-engine access to child pornography is a form of censorship, and nearly nobody thinks it's a bad idea. All large companies execute some level of censorship and all countries have standards of decorum. The question is really how much censorship one tolerates, not whether any at all is tolerable.

coldtea 9y ago

With the pervasive surveillance, paid troll campaigns from all parties, operations to influence media from agencies, millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages, etc, the US is not some paragon of internet freedom either...

jryle70 9y ago
What you said is exactly the signs of internet freedom. If the government had the monopoly of the media they wouldn't have to have "operations to influence media from agencies". If anti-net-neutrality of the media there wouldn't be "millions of fake anti-net-neutrality messages". Do you want to try to set up an anti-corruption FB account in Vietnam and see what happen?

taoistextremist 9y ago

>Even Japan is getting more heavy handed than they were, and in Asia, they are the most liberal of all governments in comparison. I feel like this isn't really true; Taiwan, and arguably South Korea have more liberal societies and governments.