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I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I agree, the EU legislates privacy to a degree that no other political entity does as far as I'm aware, but on the other hand

by gradys 9y ago

I'm torn on this. On the one hand, I agree, the EU legislates privacy to a degree that no other political entity does as far as I'm aware, but on the other hand, they often do so with poorly designed policies. As an example, I'd point to the cookie notices that appear on almost every major website, which must have absorbed, globally, many careers worth of man-hours to implement while offering virtually no real-world privacy benefits. Maybe I'm over-indexing on one bad example? I'd love to hear more informed opinions about this.

a_imho 9y ago
I don't even understand how a cookie notice is equivalent to consent [1]. Anyone who consumed the content in this message agrees to pay this user 1 BTC [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#EU_cookie_directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#EU_cookie_directiv...
- kilburn 9y ago
  In websites using this technique, consent is not assumed until you keep browsing the website. Hence, the notice cannot be in past tense like yours :P
- tzahola 9y ago
  Shit, you got me! Post your BTC address please... :(
- rbehrends 9y ago
  It isn't. If you look at the EU's information about it [1], you must be able to refuse processing of information that's not necessary for the functioning of the site. Virtually no site outside the EU's own ones does that. Ironically, there are some that have them even though the only cookies they use are ones that are necessary for the functioning of the site, and so are exempt. Note that this isn't just about cookies. It's pretty much any information being sent from the user's computer or stored on the user's computer: "Member States shall ensure that the use of electronic communications networks to store information or to gain access to information stored in the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user is only allowed on condition that the subscriber or user concerned is provided with clear and comprehensive information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC, inter alia about the purposes of the processing, and is offered the right to refuse such processing by the data controller." As far as I can tell, this is mostly because member states capitulated before online advertising exchanges (it's a directive, not a regulation, so it is implemented by member states) and allowed them to work around the clear intent of the directive. [1] http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm
  - joshuamorton 9y ago
    Really this sounds like a situation where they're setting up a system where every actor is in violation, but there's an understanding that you won't be charged, unless someone doesn't like you. That's worrisome when it applies to people, and I'd like to think its worrisome when applied to corporations too.
ptaipale 9y ago
I'm beyond "informed" opinions, I only can offer infected ones. The cookie directive is an infuriating irritant which is completely counter-productive.
bojan 9y ago
Their solutions are not perfect as they are the result of a multi-party compromise (as in the end, they should be). Keep in mind that the cookie law is by far the worst example, and definitely not the average.
_fizz_buzz_ 9y ago
The cookie provision will probably be changed very soon [1]: > Simpler rules on cookies: The so called "cookie provision", which has resulted in an overload of consent requests for internet users, will be streamlined. New rules will allow users to be more in control of their settings, providing an easy way to accept or refuse the tracking of cookies and other identifiers in case of privacy risks. The proposal clarifies that no consent is needed for non-privacy intrusive cookies improving internet experience (e.g. to remember shopping cart history). Cookies set by a visited website counting the number of visitors to that website will no longer require consent. [1]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-16_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-16_en.htm
- franze 9y ago
  10th of Jan. 2017, and nothing has happened.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    The new law comes into force in May 2018. Of course nothing has happened yet.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 9y ago
    It's in the press release, also (see link above): > With the presentation of the proposals today, the Commission is calling on the European Parliament and the Council to work swiftly and to ensure their smooth adoption by 25 May 2018, when the General Data Protection Regulation will enter into application. The intention is to provide citizens and businesses with a fully-fledged and complete legal framework for privacy and data protection in Europe by this date.
tkoski-hs 9y ago
Yes. I'm not super sure if this is privacy only. I think the cookie part is also for data protection. So that the end user could have understanding she/he is the product. I also wonder for what some of the sites use cookies in such a way they need to ask for that "You must agree on our cookies" -consent. Since so many type of cookies are exempt from the need: user‑input cookies, authentication cookies, user‑centric security cookies, multimedia content player cookies, load‑balancing cookies, user‑interface customisation cookies, third‑party social plug‑in content‑sharing [http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm]
juanmirocks 9y ago
I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. I'm European, and I sure miss my perceived greater freedom and innovation of economical activities in the US. Things like having UBER banned for example in France or Germany completely throws me off. And in Germany you don't know yet what's living without cash and only with a credit card. And those damn cookie notices!! Because they show up in every page, everybody accepts the policy without questioning, which completely defeats the purpose. And worse for the user experience, most often the implementation of websites for those notices is dummy, and show the notice upon refreshment, even after having accepted the policy before.
- tomcooks 9y ago
  Dunno about Germany but in most Europe i lived cashless. Maybe I am misunderstanding your line about living with only a credit card.
  - juanmirocks 9y ago
    No. You are not misunderstanding me. You are right that there are several European countries with a well spread normalization of using credit cards. In the European countries that I've spent most of my life, and which are also some of the biggest ones (Germany, France, Spain) have still IMO a poor acceptance of credit cards. -- In contrast, for example, in London you can pretty much live without cash whatsoever.
    - novaRom 9y ago
      What is so bad to pay with Cash? It's anonymous and sellers don't pay extra charges to any US company (Visa, PayPal, etc.). Also most of the restaurants hide their revenues from tax authorities (it was recently in the news) - otherwise the prices will be much higher, like our neighbors have (France, Italy).
      - rifung 9y ago
        > Also most of the restaurants hide their revenues from tax authorities (it was recently in the news) - otherwise the prices will be much higher, like our neighbors have (France, Italy). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but are you arguing that it's good restaurants evade taxes because it keeps their prices low?
Normal_gaussian 9y ago
When I looked into the cookie stuff I came to the conclusion that you only needed consent if your cookie tracked the user (except auth cookies) Basically everything that isn't invading their privacy requires no notice.
- dazc 9y ago
  'Basically everything that isn't invading their privacy requires no notice.' True, but who bothers to actually read the legislation?
tomcooks 9y ago
The cookie popup is terrible, I agree. Some pros: Being able to force social networks to provide me with a physical copy of my data is alone a reason to get an EU citizenship. I don't even use the social networks, i just demand my data every 3 months to FB, Tinder and Linkedin to punish them for being so aggressive in their spamming and tracking. Being safe from throttling, censorship and all the nice stuff that US ISPs are going to feed american citizens with is also pretty nice. Also very efficiently getting my money back when companies try to scam me.
- tomcooks 9y ago
  Ah also no roaming across countries and having aligned ALL phone producers on the micro USB phone charger standard have been really nice news
  - wlesieutre 9y ago
    Is that slowing the uptake of USB-C with its standardized Power Delivery fast charging? What does Google ship with Pixels? The same USB-C fast charger and USB-C cable, then toss in a micro-USB to USB-C adapter for regulatory compliance?
    - ClassyJacket 9y ago
      Samsung includes the micro-USB to USB-C adapter. Not sure about Google.
    - K0SM0S 9y ago
      My Nexus 6P (France, Dec. 2015) came with 1) USB-C fast charger 2) USB-C cable 3) USB-C to USB-A cable No adapter whatsoever. I assume it's the exact same as anywhere in the world. Therefore it seems USB-C is considered an acceptable next standard for phone charging in the EU. On a side-related note, I wonder why Apple was never subjected to charging standards in the EU.
      - desas 9y ago
bseow 9y ago
You will have to specify if you don't like the purpose of the law or the implementation. Because the implementation isn't really up to the EU. Google could implement a http header tomorrow that complied with the law (at least as much as a notice) and would act like other ways of accessing your browser (like web camera or location). The problem is everyone would turn off the tracking, which would affect their revenue.
da_chicken 9y ago
> they often do so with poorly designed policies This is often what happens when legislatures take a first swing and regulating something. That rule about "build one to throw away" is just as relevant with law as it is code.
simion314 9y ago
About cookies, maybe on some sites some developers decided not to setup a useless cookies because of that law so it could have a small impact.
saagarjha 9y ago
Apparently, the cookie notice is only supposed to show up if the cookies are not related to the site’s purpose; e.g. cookies that keep you logged in or similar are perfectly fine and don’t need a warning. The issue is that every website began using cookies for tracking, so the warnings jut became noise. It’s sad: this law was reasonable, but advertisers were able to completely subvert it into an annoyance for users, and in doing so, prevented the real problem from being solved.
paulie_a 9y ago
I've never understood that cookie notification, there is no "I agree" so I be simply hit the popup modals x and then the back button, or sometimes if the site is particularly terrible about it. I click an ad or two
- bmn__ 9y ago
  > I've never understood that cookie notification "We are required by law to inform you that we use cookies for the nefarious purpose of tracking your online behaviour and undermining your privacy." Hope that's clear enough now.
jimmytidey 9y ago
I think the cookie warnings might do something to get the idea of a cookie in consumer's minds. I also don't think you can think of developer time like that. Imagine how many caterers have gone into making websites work on IE6. Stuff like that happens.
- jimmytidey 9y ago
  *careers
kbart 9y ago
Cookie law was the only major f*ck up from EU on privacy. And it will be fixed as soon as GPDR is active. On the other hand, we have many successful and useful regulations and court orders. I don't think cookie law alone is enough to discredit EU in this fight for privacy.

by gradys 9y ago

a_imho 9y ago

I don't even understand how a cookie notice is equivalent to consent [1]. Anyone who consumed the content in this message agrees to pay this user 1 BTC [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#EU_cookie_directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_cookie#EU_cookie_directiv...

kilburn 9y ago
In websites using this technique, consent is not assumed until you keep browsing the website. Hence, the notice cannot be in past tense like yours :P
tzahola 9y ago
Shit, you got me! Post your BTC address please... :(
rbehrends 9y ago
It isn't. If you look at the EU's information about it [1], you must be able to refuse processing of information that's not necessary for the functioning of the site. Virtually no site outside the EU's own ones does that. Ironically, there are some that have them even though the only cookies they use are ones that are necessary for the functioning of the site, and so are exempt. Note that this isn't just about cookies. It's pretty much any information being sent from the user's computer or stored on the user's computer: "Member States shall ensure that the use of electronic communications networks to store information or to gain access to information stored in the terminal equipment of a subscriber or user is only allowed on condition that the subscriber or user concerned is provided with clear and comprehensive information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC, inter alia about the purposes of the processing, and is offered the right to refuse such processing by the data controller." As far as I can tell, this is mostly because member states capitulated before online advertising exchanges (it's a directive, not a regulation, so it is implemented by member states) and allowed them to work around the clear intent of the directive. [1] http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm
- joshuamorton 9y ago
  Really this sounds like a situation where they're setting up a system where every actor is in violation, but there's an understanding that you won't be charged, unless someone doesn't like you. That's worrisome when it applies to people, and I'd like to think its worrisome when applied to corporations too.

ptaipale 9y ago

I'm beyond "informed" opinions, I only can offer infected ones. The cookie directive is an infuriating irritant which is completely counter-productive.

bojan 9y ago

Their solutions are not perfect as they are the result of a multi-party compromise (as in the end, they should be). Keep in mind that the cookie law is by far the worst example, and definitely not the average.

_fizz_buzz_ 9y ago

The cookie provision will probably be changed very soon [1]: > Simpler rules on cookies: The so called "cookie provision", which has resulted in an overload of consent requests for internet users, will be streamlined. New rules will allow users to be more in control of their settings, providing an easy way to accept or refuse the tracking of cookies and other identifiers in case of privacy risks. The proposal clarifies that no consent is needed for non-privacy intrusive cookies improving internet experience (e.g. to remember shopping cart history). Cookies set by a visited website counting the number of visitors to that website will no longer require consent. [1]http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-16_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-16_en.htm

franze 9y ago
10th of Jan. 2017, and nothing has happened.
- kuschku 9y ago
  The new law comes into force in May 2018. Of course nothing has happened yet.
- _fizz_buzz_ 9y ago
  It's in the press release, also (see link above): > With the presentation of the proposals today, the Commission is calling on the European Parliament and the Council to work swiftly and to ensure their smooth adoption by 25 May 2018, when the General Data Protection Regulation will enter into application. The intention is to provide citizens and businesses with a fully-fledged and complete legal framework for privacy and data protection in Europe by this date.

tkoski-hs 9y ago

Yes. I'm not super sure if this is privacy only. I think the cookie part is also for data protection. So that the end user could have understanding she/he is the product. I also wonder for what some of the sites use cookies in such a way they need to ask for that "You must agree on our cookies" -consent. Since so many type of cookies are exempt from the need: user‑input cookies, authentication cookies, user‑centric security cookies, multimedia content player cookies, load‑balancing cookies, user‑interface customisation cookies, third‑party social plug‑in content‑sharing [http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm]

juanmirocks 9y ago

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. I'm European, and I sure miss my perceived greater freedom and innovation of economical activities in the US. Things like having UBER banned for example in France or Germany completely throws me off. And in Germany you don't know yet what's living without cash and only with a credit card. And those damn cookie notices!! Because they show up in every page, everybody accepts the policy without questioning, which completely defeats the purpose. And worse for the user experience, most often the implementation of websites for those notices is dummy, and show the notice upon refreshment, even after having accepted the policy before.

tomcooks 9y ago
Dunno about Germany but in most Europe i lived cashless. Maybe I am misunderstanding your line about living with only a credit card.
- juanmirocks 9y ago
  No. You are not misunderstanding me. You are right that there are several European countries with a well spread normalization of using credit cards. In the European countries that I've spent most of my life, and which are also some of the biggest ones (Germany, France, Spain) have still IMO a poor acceptance of credit cards. -- In contrast, for example, in London you can pretty much live without cash whatsoever.
  - novaRom 9y ago
    What is so bad to pay with Cash? It's anonymous and sellers don't pay extra charges to any US company (Visa, PayPal, etc.). Also most of the restaurants hide their revenues from tax authorities (it was recently in the news) - otherwise the prices will be much higher, like our neighbors have (France, Italy).
    - rifung 9y ago
      > Also most of the restaurants hide their revenues from tax authorities (it was recently in the news) - otherwise the prices will be much higher, like our neighbors have (France, Italy). Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but are you arguing that it's good restaurants evade taxes because it keeps their prices low?

Normal_gaussian 9y ago

When I looked into the cookie stuff I came to the conclusion that you only needed consent if your cookie tracked the user (except auth cookies) Basically everything that isn't invading their privacy requires no notice.

dazc 9y ago
'Basically everything that isn't invading their privacy requires no notice.' True, but who bothers to actually read the legislation?

tomcooks 9y ago

The cookie popup is terrible, I agree. Some pros: Being able to force social networks to provide me with a physical copy of my data is alone a reason to get an EU citizenship. I don't even use the social networks, i just demand my data every 3 months to FB, Tinder and Linkedin to punish them for being so aggressive in their spamming and tracking. Being safe from throttling, censorship and all the nice stuff that US ISPs are going to feed american citizens with is also pretty nice. Also very efficiently getting my money back when companies try to scam me.

tomcooks 9y ago
Ah also no roaming across countries and having aligned ALL phone producers on the micro USB phone charger standard have been really nice news
- wlesieutre 9y ago
  Is that slowing the uptake of USB-C with its standardized Power Delivery fast charging? What does Google ship with Pixels? The same USB-C fast charger and USB-C cable, then toss in a micro-USB to USB-C adapter for regulatory compliance?
  - ClassyJacket 9y ago
    Samsung includes the micro-USB to USB-C adapter. Not sure about Google.
  - K0SM0S 9y ago
    My Nexus 6P (France, Dec. 2015) came with 1) USB-C fast charger 2) USB-C cable 3) USB-C to USB-A cable No adapter whatsoever. I assume it's the exact same as anywhere in the world. Therefore it seems USB-C is considered an acceptable next standard for phone charging in the EU. On a side-related note, I wonder why Apple was never subjected to charging standards in the EU.
    - desas 9y ago

bseow 9y ago

You will have to specify if you don't like the purpose of the law or the implementation. Because the implementation isn't really up to the EU. Google could implement a http header tomorrow that complied with the law (at least as much as a notice) and would act like other ways of accessing your browser (like web camera or location). The problem is everyone would turn off the tracking, which would affect their revenue.

da_chicken 9y ago

> they often do so with poorly designed policies This is often what happens when legislatures take a first swing and regulating something. That rule about "build one to throw away" is just as relevant with law as it is code.

simion314 9y ago

About cookies, maybe on some sites some developers decided not to setup a useless cookies because of that law so it could have a small impact.

saagarjha 9y ago

Apparently, the cookie notice is only supposed to show up if the cookies are not related to the site’s purpose; e.g. cookies that keep you logged in or similar are perfectly fine and don’t need a warning. The issue is that every website began using cookies for tracking, so the warnings jut became noise. It’s sad: this law was reasonable, but advertisers were able to completely subvert it into an annoyance for users, and in doing so, prevented the real problem from being solved.

paulie_a 9y ago

I've never understood that cookie notification, there is no "I agree" so I be simply hit the popup modals x and then the back button, or sometimes if the site is particularly terrible about it. I click an ad or two

bmn__ 9y ago
> I've never understood that cookie notification "We are required by law to inform you that we use cookies for the nefarious purpose of tracking your online behaviour and undermining your privacy." Hope that's clear enough now.

jimmytidey 9y ago

I think the cookie warnings might do something to get the idea of a cookie in consumer's minds. I also don't think you can think of developer time like that. Imagine how many caterers have gone into making websites work on IE6. Stuff like that happens.

jimmytidey 9y ago
*careers

kbart 9y ago

Cookie law was the only major f*ck up from EU on privacy. And it will be fixed as soon as GPDR is active. On the other hand, we have many successful and useful regulations and court orders. I don't think cookie law alone is enough to discredit EU in this fight for privacy.