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Norway votes to decriminalise drugs and offer treatment instead of jail time
- jakobegger 9y agoThis sounds like the right thing to do. But in practice, a lot is going to depend on how the legal system deals with "dealers". When you say "drug dealer", most people think of some gangster type who makes a lot of money by exploiting poor addicts. But that's not the reality. If you use drugs, and you don't have a job, selling a bit of the stuff is the most obvious way to make some money. So a lot of drug users will become drug dealers as well. I think that these people need help as well; putting them in jail doesn't help anyone. But it can get even worse. Imagine that you are a drug user, and you need some drugs. So you ask a friend, who is also a drug user, if they have any left, and if you can buy it off of them. Boom, they're a dealer now as well. So in reality, a large part of drug users are going to be drug dealers as well. If you decriminalise drug use, but keep prison sentences for dealing, a lot will hinge on the question what makes someone a dealer.
- nubbins 9y agoThis seems like an error in the law if there is no minimum quantity or any other kind of test for who is a "dealer". I sold some speakers once but that doesn't make me a Hi-fi dealer.
- runeks 9y agoThe error in the law would be if selling some speakers once is okay, but opening a hi-fi store is punishable with jail time. If we agree that consuming drugs is fine, then why are we simultaneously trying to put dealers and distributors in jail? What’s the point?
- simonh 9y agoPlease read the article or read up on the Portuguese model, it makes points like this clear. Using drugs is not considered fine, it is still subject to psychological evaluations, warnings and escalating sanctions such as fines and passport confiscation aside from medical treatment. It’s treated as an administrative infraction, like a speeding ticket or a parking fine and not a criminal offence. The other aspect not mentioned in the article is that in Portugal dealing in ‘paraphrenalia’ is not an offence. This is important because it allows charities and clinics to provide clean needles, dramatically reducing drug related infections. Aside from these policies greatly reducing drug use overall, it’s this change that is responsible for a magnified effect in reducing the infection and death rates.
- jrs95 9y agoAt least around where I am, the police tend to threaten these people with extreme penalties when arrested in order to get them to give up their supplier in exchange for a much lighter sentence. So decriminalizing small time dealing will make it more difficult to prosecute the people who really are the gangster types.
- LeoNatan25 9y agoIf drugs are legalized—truly legalized—the need for “gangster types” diminishes and all that is left is supply and demand.
- jrs95 9y agoThis is true, and I think there are a lot of ways in which that would improve things. Has anyone really taken it this far though?
- eru 9y agoThe US has: there were lots of criminal types in the alcohol business in the 1930s. Now there are virtually gone.
- megaman22 9y agoSeriously, without prohibition in the first place, so much of the police/industrial complex never would have come into existence.
- eecc 9y agoYou’re conflating. It’s “military/industrial complex” as Eisenhower called it. You’re probably referring to the “prison industrial complex”, the influential lobby of private prisons.
- jrs95 9y agoWhile this is true, it's not good enough to just assume that drugs are the same as alcohol because alcohol is a drug.
- toomanybeersies 9y agoI don't think I've ever met a drug dealer who wasn't getting high off their own supply (whatever supply that might be). Most dealers are basically dealing to pay for their own habits.
- JackFr 9y ago> If you use drugs, and you don't have a job, selling a bit of the stuff is the most obvious way to make some money. That's interesting - it points to something special about drugs. Most people I know without jobs eat, but they're not inclined to become grocers to make a little on the side. It seems there's some scarcity introduced because dealing is illegal. The unintended consequence of legalization might be the elimination of the casual dealer.
- qz_ 9y agoI don't know about this. Weed is semi-legal in The Netherlands but people who deal "on the side" are still very common.
- xocyabencl 9y agoAre the "on the side" dealers selling the same stuff as the semi-legal dealers? Why does anyone not use the semi-legal dealers?
- phreeza 9y agoProbably something to do with the transaction costs and margins that can be achieved.
- escanda 9y agoFYI here in Spain you can possess drugs at your home - any illegal substance - because it is not illegal. You can't deal drugs nor carry them along with you on the street. You can grow for instance, as well, marijuana if it is for your own consumption. IMHO it's a pretty nice spot although people claim for a legal framework to grow weed as in some states of US or other countries.
- pfortuny 9y agoYes. Actually, as far as you do not consume them publicly or carry them with aim of distributing them (what is called "personal use"), they are not illegal. I think we are at a good middle spot. There are some problems in both end of the society spectrum but as far as I know deaths by overdose are not as large as they used to be.
- sigotirandolas 9y agoAFAIK, it's actually illegal to carry them in any public space, even if it's for personal consumption. There are also some other points where I think the law/jurisprudence can be improved (e.g. harm reduction supplies such as accurate scales can be considered as evidence of trafficking), but still, overall the law doesn't impose excessive penalties on drug users, and of course is better than most other countries in the world.
- thuuuomas 9y agoBut where will Norway source their compulsory, unpaid labor if not from private prisons clogged with drug war causalities?
- eitland 9y agoWe never did that in the first place :-)
- shitgoose 9y agowait till they outlaw bitcoin. prisons will fill up again.
- deadbunny 9y agoExcept how do you prove someone owns bitcoin?
- shitgoose 9y agosame way they prove someone is downloading and possessing copyrighted content.
- deadbunny 9y agoI don't think you understand how bockchains work. I don't have to have anything physical or digital to control coins on the blockchain I just need to have a way of accessing my private/public keys. One example would be a brain wallet, nothing but a phrase in my memory.
- ringaroundthetx 9y agopeople will agree with any sanction the state has for a particular action whether it is summary execution for a furtive movement, or merely being put on a list so this is a good move from the parliament to preserve compatibility of offenders with enlightened society
- lb1lf 9y agoThis has been suggested by the liberals (Venstre), socialists and the greens for some time now, what made this happen to a large extent was that a number of younger conservatives have spent lots of time lobbying for a new stance in their party (Høyre). With any luck, the next goal will be legalisation and most drugs being sold by either pharmacies or the state-run stores (Vinmonopolet) which already have a monopoly on selling alcohol at over 4.75% by volume. Replacing the dirty drugs addicts currently consume with pharmaceutical-quality stuff will work wonders for our drug-related deaths statistics - not to mention the improvement in quality of life for those affected and the hit the current criminal suppliers will take.
- jacobr 9y agoIt would be an interesting experiment to extend Vinmonopolet since the infrastructure and culture (restricted opening hours, no advertisements, etc - at least that's how it works in Sweden) around it already exists. This would be different to other countries where you probably would have to trust for-profit actors to handle it well, or implement a monopoly from scratch.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoThat probably depends on how much space it needs at the end and whether or not you allow things like coffee shops (after all, we are talking full legalisation). If they just need a counter, I'm guessing Vinmonopolet will do just fine even though their stores tend to be small with well-used space. If they allow for coffee shops/bars, it might be split much like alcohol: Weaker or set strength pre-rolled joints available at grocery stores much like cigarettes and beer and unrolled pot/hash at the liquor stores.
- vidarh 9y agoI've been quite (pleasantly) surprised that the socialists have supported this as when I was still living in Norway, the younger socialists were all rabidly anti-drugs.
- tyfon 9y agoIt's worth noting that Høyre is not just conservative but "value conservative", verdikonservativ in Norwegian. The basic is to not mess with things that works, but replace what doesn't. Being politicians they do not follow this at all times, but they are quite far from your typical right wing party elsewhere. In this case, I hope they follow Venstres lead in this matter and just legalises it. Venstre (Left) is not really a left wing party either, they just entered the government with Høyre and Fremskrittspartiet (Progress party), the party most to the right of the ones in parliament. This proposition is also supported by SV (Sosialist Left Party), one of the most left wing parties in the parliament but not by the workers party (AP) nor the christians or the farmers.
- curtis 9y agoAs a reminder, decriminalization is not the same thing as legalization. This distinction seems to get lost in these kinds of discussions. Decriminalization is an approach for countries that see drug abuse as a serious problem that needs to be managed as well as possible. It is not a solution for people who regard recreational drug use as a civil liberties issue.
- kowdermeister 9y agoIt's not the same, but it's the first step. They probably thought the general public will perceive it better than going straight with legalization.
- mantas 9y agoOr they see drug addicts as health care issue, not criminals. Portugal has decriminalised more than a decade ago and they don't seem to turn to legalisation any time soon?
- kowdermeister 9y agoMotivations can be very different, as you say, drug addicts need help not jail time. Norway seems to me as a progressive nation, I hope they are on the right path.
- mantas 9y agoWhat is "the right path" though? Some people would say legalisation is the only path and other people, while supporting decriminalisation, wouldn't ever support legalising and promoting a health issue. Knowing Nordic history with alcohol, I'd say they're on the right path to treat their addicts and keep drugs at bay.
- crispinb 9y agoWhen we do definitively roll back the fraudulent catastrophe that has been the multi-decade international War on Drugs, could we lock up some of its proponents? Punitive measures are almost always risible policy, but it might be fun to have just a few years' worth of payback.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> could we lock up some of its proponents? For breaking what law? There are good reasons we make it tough to arrest politicians for their political decisions.
- crispinb 9y agoI would have thought you could give my very serious policy proposal some slightly more considered analysis.
- fsloth 9y agoUh, generally locking people up just for doing politics is considered a malady - the term "political prisoner" never sounds great.
- crispinb 9y agoI'm looking forward to your detailed response to my upcoming policy white paper entitled "Retrospective prison sentences for War on Drug Proponents: recommending another risible policy measure"
- JumpCrisscross 9y agoIt is inane to posit future, unknown counter arguments to a present, cogent one.
- crispinb 9y ago
- marze 9y agoBottom line, deaths from overdose: Drugs criminalized, USA: 185 deaths/million people/year Not criminalized, treatment focused Portugal: 6 deaths/million people/year http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-5/ http://www.aei.org/publication/chart-of-the-day-5/
- refurb 9y agoI would say that chart is pretty good proof that decriminalizatiin is NOT the biggest driver of reduced overdose deaths. How do i know? Some of the countries on that list have exceeding low deaths, but have no decriminalized drugs at all.
- whatyoucantsay 9y agoThank you for updating your comment.
- asabjorn 9y agoIt’s great to see Norway do the rational think and replicate the success of the Portuguese system instead of the catastrophe of the American. I think our society would greatly improve from more mercy, and I miss that from growing up in Norway. It seems many in the USA instead of trying something different when their opinions fail double down, because they believe conviction and force will somehow defeat actual evidence that it is just a terrible idea.
- shams93 9y agoYeah unfortunately here we use the drug laws to effectively reintroduce slavery. Its legal under US law to use prisoners as slave labor. As we used to say in the 90s people in the 'hood don't have planes. By the 2000s rather than the CIA cocaine and heroin smuggling we saw Wallstreet move in and the rise of the Oxycontin era where Wallstreet shareholders have been directly benefiting both from selling opiates to the masses and then from their slave labor when they land in a private prison after converting from oxy to heroin addiction.
- 9y ago
- absurding 9y agosomething done 16 years ago already in Portugal
- nscalf 9y agoGood, now the rest of the world needs to adopt this model. I understand some of the contempt towards drug addicts, but at the end of the day these people are sick in some way. We (Americans, and much of the world) have spent years demonizing anyone involved in drugs, and it has not turned out well in any measurable way. If you want a healthy society, help society get healthy.
- codebolt 9y agoAs a Norwegian with extensive personal experience with the drug community (both from my parents generation in the 60's/70's and from the millenial generation), I just want to say that I really don't agree with the victimization of these people. Most of them are completely to blame for their own poor lifestyle choices and should be made to take personal responsibility for the outcome. I certainly hope these political changes don't usher in a new period of increased drug use, or somehow lead to an increased burden of undeserving youth abusing the welfare system. But that is what I fear.
- RepressedEmu 9y agoI think it's interesting that you fear a hypothetical future of "undeserving youth abusing the welfare system" more than the current reality of "undeserving youth not getting the help they need and dying in the streets". You might wanna double-check your math on that value system you're using.
- codebolt 9y agoNorway already has very generous social welfare programs, and nobody who is willing to look for help is dying in the streets. The notion of undeserving youth abusing the welfare system is also far from hypothetical. Consider: I hold university degrees in two STEM fields and earn a decent salary in the private sector. My wife is currently finishing up her education and is receiving a very basic student loan/scholarship. We have two young children to support. However, my friend and his girlfriend, who were out of work this year, were receiving more in government welfare put together than I was getting paid after tax, and they don't even have children. It frustrates me that the government is taking my hard earned and much needed money and giving it to my lazy friend, who uses it to gamble and buy useless luxury goods. And I know several other examples of people in my age group who complain to their doctor about being "depressed", so they can start living on welfare. In my eyes, these people are undeserving, and a symptom of a broken system.
- drefanzor 9y agoAs someone who spent many years in the United States (Arizona) Prison system, this is a great step forward. Although it still won't stop drug users from committing crimes to get their next fix.
- lb1lf 9y agoIt won't, but then again - petty crime is not a necessary consequence of an excessive drug habit; it is a consequence of drugs being illegal and the associated cost of obtaining drugs of dubious quality. We can greatly reduce drug-induced petty crime by legalising (most) drugs - some will call that a surrender; I won't.
- pmoriarty 9y ago"it still won't stop drug users from committing crimes to get their next fix" Just subsidize the cost of drugs for those that can't afford them, and problem solved. A fraction of Trump's tax cut should do the job.
- whatyoucantsay 9y ago>“It is important to emphasise that we do not legalise cannabis and other drugs, but we decriminalise. >“The change will take some time, but that means a changed vision: those who have a substance abuse problem should be treated as ill, and not as criminals with classical sanctions such as fines and imprisonment.” In relative terms, this is progress. The question is, how will they treat the "ill" with their cannabis "substance abuse problems"? One can only marvel at all the overdose deaths they'll be racing to prevent.
- erokar 9y agoI live in Norway. While I'm happy about this vote, it remains to be seen how it will play out in practice. So far the Norwegian drug policy has been terrible — police searches of homes and cars with questianble probable cause; routinely harassment of drug addicts by police/police policy of going after low hanging fruits to easily improve statistics; and severe penalty for drug-related crimes (> $150 fine for carrying 1 gram of marihuana, as much as 21 years in prison for smuggling marihuana). Norway has a long way to go. The parliment vote is promising, but as for now I'm cautiously optimistic about how it will play out in practice.
- jrs95 9y agoThis is nearly as bad as in the U.S., although I assume you probably don't have the same racial component.
- erokar 9y agoActually I think the U.S. is ahead of Norway here, as cannabis has been decriminalized in several states in the U.S. As to the racial component — Norway is not as racially diverse as the U.S., but if you are black you will be routinely stopped by police and interrogated on the street in Norway. This will not happen if you are white. I know of a university professor from Africa that experiences this several times a year — he has just resigned to the fact. On a diffrent note, Norway has a huge problem with drug-related deaths: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-19/which-european-nation-suffers-most-drug-induced-deaths http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-19/which-european-nati...
- int_19h 9y agoI don't think we have any states where it has been decriminalized. It has been outright legalized in some, but most still have it illegal - and possession often results in prison time, not just fines. Of course, it's still illegal on the federal level regardless of the state, and you can run afoul of that (e.g. at an internal border control checkpoint).
- sergefaguet 9y agoThis is good. Not nearly enough but good. Certain things - MDMA, LSD, GHB - should be legal and regulated. They are all things that have the potential to make lives of many people significantly better. They certainly made mine better. Drugs should be manufactured in a reliable way, researched, and educated about.
- pimeys 9y agoWait, GHB? Are we talking about the liquid that can be either a solvent GBL or cooked with baking soda to neutralize it to GHB and make it less dangerous? Two millilitres too much of GBL and you pass out, a bit more with GHB. Of course if you can keep it in control, you can have lots of fun. But I wouldn't list it with MDMA and LSD, which are tremendously more safe than GHB.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoOk. Lets take a look at how this would be administered legally. I'm going to assume they'll have measured doses with the precision of a prescription drug. It'll probably be cut with some food-grade and safe substance to make it easier to measure as an alternative. If dosage is dependent on body mass, the store employee measures this before dispensing your dose. There is a strict limit on the number of doses a person can safely buy.
- pimeys 9y agoThere needs to be somebody with a pipette dosing the right amount, keeping track of the time that you don't take the next dose in less than an hour and guards to prevent you from drinking alcohol. Or we have lots of naked people climbing to the trees, fainted or dead. We've seen this in the Berlin gay community. People don't know how to dose GBL, almost nobody knows how to cook GHB. It's common to have an ambulance coming to the clubs every weekend to pick up another overdose. GHB feels like a better alcohol when done right, but it is notoriously hard to dose right. You might not feel anything after 45 minutes of the first dose, drink more and pass out.
- qwerty456127 9y agoWhat if a person has no addiction but just enjoys a joint (or even some cocaine) on occasion, i.e. like other people can enjoy a beer or two at times without being alcoholics? Are they still going to force them through treatment or what?
- pmoriarty 9y agoHow powerful and profitable is the prison industry in Norway?
- alvil 9y agoNorwegian islamic republic, with half of nation on drugs, without terrestrial broadcasting and without cash, easy to manipulate:D Fuck neoliberals.
- cgmg 9y agoLooks like you lost your way mate. This is HackerNews, not /pol/.
- alfla 9y agohæ?
- sctb 9y agoMany of your comments, like this one, violate the guidelines. Please read them and don't post like this again. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- noahdesu 9y agoA group called EmmaSofia [0] in Norway, which I understand to analogous to MAPS [1] in the US, did an AMA on Reddit [2] recently regarding sentencing guidelines related to an LSD arrest. It seems like things are changing for the better, though I really should not even pretend to have a grasp on Norwegian politics. > "The short story is this: Henrik got his apartment raided by police do to a confiscation of LSD in a mail order that they were able to link to him. The police originally wanted a 5 month prison sentence, but through three court instances we managed to present enough evidence to convince the court to reduce precedence for LSD-related cases quite substantially. The Supreme Court decided on 45 days of community service." [0]: http://www.emmasofia.org/ http://www.emmasofia.org/ [1]: http://www.maps.org http://www.maps.org [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/7cnqvv/we_are_emmasofia_the_organization_that_helped_get/ https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/7cnqvv/we_are_emmasof...
- X86BSD 9y agoThe war on drugs is an EPIC faulted by any measure. It’s almost criminal in itself. Addiction is a health issue NOT a brutal police force issue. End the war on drugs. Stop tearing families apart for non violent offenders and victimless crimes. Dissolve the DEA. Return the money to the tax payers. Lower taxes. Stop the savagery. Portugal and now Norway. Hopefully the sane nations continue to grow.
- hguhghuff 9y agoDecriminalizing is silly without also giving access to legally buy the product. Regulated legalization gets rid of the criminals.
- gumby 9y agoAbsurd: this will destroy the economy. Who is worrying about the fate of prison guards, policemen, the bribes and government contracts? We need to invent more additions, offenses, and draconian punishments, not fewer. If we get rid of drug crimes our only hope is to ramp up the terrorism fears.
- known 9y agoIn India selling, not consumption is a crime.
- sytelus 9y agoTLDR; When a person is found in possession of a small amount of drugs, the drugs are confiscated and the person is interviewed by a psychiatrist, a social worker and a lawyer. Following this, a number of sanctions can be put in place such as a ban on visiting certain places, a foreign travel ban and a small fine, in line with the country’s minimum wage.
- adrusi 9y agoTreating drug use as a medical problem in need of treatment is not necessarily an improvement over treating it as a crime. When we treat it as a crime there are sentencing guidelines. Yes, the guidelines we have now, at least in the US, are draconian, but we could have less draconian guidelines without medicalization. When we medicalize drug use, the guidelines disappear. People who are involuntarily committed to mental institutions arent prescribed dates for release, they can remain institutionalized for life. If we go down the path of medicalization, we might see some drug users forced into rehab, and then into the equivalent of parole where they return to society but are administered mandatory drug tests periodically. And then back into rehab, cycling forever. I don't want to be too alarmist. Portugal's been doing this for a while, and I haven't heard of anything like this happening. But drugs like heroin and cannabis were illegal in the United States for decades before the war on drugs started. All it takes to get from current Portugal to my hypothetical scenario is for the political stars to align and suddenly we're calling for a revamp of the drug rehabilitation institutions to have a lower relapse rate, and now we're on the road to life sentences for heroin users. And it's harder to convince people that it's wrong because now we're helping them, not punishing.
- harry8 9y agoWe so need to acknowledge that drugs won the war on drugs and get on with sensible policy beyond declaring war on nouns, abstract or otherwise.
- teddyh 9y agoWar on nouns? Like in Steve Yegge’s Execution in the Kingdom of Nouns? https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdo...
- harry8 9y agonah, java style verbing any and every noun is something else. We war on: drugs cancer terror poverty gangs crime we need to verb the noun war in the sense that, 'the president "warred on" ...' Meaning a stupid policy was followed that generally left everyone one vastly worse off except a bunch of high priced consultants. "warred on" should have the same general meaning as "shat on their own desk"
- starkrev 9y agoJail Time is in essence rehab without the professional helthia - wellbeing and unrestrict to unsupervised visits, access to learning etc, should be a part of every rehabilitation/Incarceration centre, be it the first step and last for a drug user or a statuatory release programme for prisoners.
- simonh 9y agoThis is a joke post right? Very funny. Drugs are rife in prisons and institutions, they’re massive concentrated drug dens.
- starkrev 9y agoNorway relies on a "restorative justice" system which aims to repair the harm caused by crime rather than punish people. Drugs are not that accessible, I speak from experience. Drug addiction is not a crime, punishing an addict is. I took the time to talk to inmates and hear their stories. Every ones got a story, listen carefully and you may find empathy in the strangest of places and if not at least an understanding.
- gaius 9y agoHere's the thing about decriminalizing drugs in a wealthy Western nation: you have to address the supply side too. Which means raising hemp, coca, poppies etc on Western farms run under Western regulations. Because boosting demand in the West while knowing the conditions under which the drugs are produced, is extremely unethical. Other than that, I have no issue with it.
- kerpele 9y agoI don't have a source right now, but I remember reading that drug use in total went down in Portugal after decriminalisation. Probably due to people having better access to help and therefore better chance of kicking the habit
- simonh 9y agoPlease read the article or read up on the Portuguese model. Dealing in drugs is still illegal. This has nothing whatever to do with legalising the trade in drugs. Using them is decriminalised, which among other things enables medical professionals to help drug users without risking prosecution for aiding and abetting, and helps break the cycle of prison and criminal records that trap drug users in their behaviour pattern.
- Broken_Hippo 9y agoIn other words, the same problems we have with normal plant-based prescription drugs, food, electronics, and so on. I suspect that when everything is legal in both the producing and consuming nation, we'll be able to have the same sort of progress that we have with other legal products because it'll be out in the open.
- messo 9y agoThis is good news, but somewhat incorrect. There hasn't been an official vote, rather an agreement that has been reached among a majority of the members of parliament, in regard to the budget planing for the next 4 years. The fact that this agreement involves parties from the far left, to the centrum-right is quite unique and promising. The fact that they did this in a very public and bold way is also a good sign. This would have been unthinkable just 2-3 years ago. (I live in Norway, and follow the drug policy closely.)