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Tim Cook wasn't invited for his beliefs, but to give face to the Chinese government. Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up th

by EZ-E 9y ago

Tim Cook wasn't invited for his beliefs, but to give face to the Chinese government. Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity. For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the local companies Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China and the money he makes there. He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference

thisthatandthe 9y ago
any company stupid enough to go to China and give up its intellectual properties deserves to die. 1.3B people?! let me get a piece of that. Oh, and let my stuff get copied and stolen, and I'll lose the US market and the entire world market, which is way bigger than the Chinese market.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines. Nationalistic rants aren't welcome here.
  - cisanti 9y ago
    What is wrong with nationalism? You really have the censor dick deep up your white ass.
longcheng 9y ago
Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Google was allowed to operate in China, and it decided it did NOT want to follow the law and quit. Google was an underdog in Chinese search anyway when it operated in China. It simply failed to compete against Bidu. Amazon has been operating in China since 2000ish. It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong. Facebook will definitely lose to Tecent/Weixin in China market even if it is allowed. Cisco lost to Huawei everywhere in the world except in US, where Huawei is forbidden... Microsoft and Apple are doing well in China because they follow the local law and actually create value to local customers. It's a changed world.
- EZ-E 9y ago
  > Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Following laws is normal, but Tim Cook shouldn't both comply on censorship, and right after promote an "open internet" conference hosted by the government that just told you remove the VPN from your app store. China doesn't have rule of law, it rules BY law. Laws and their enforcement apply differently if you're local company or foreign company. Also differently whether you're in good terms with the government or not (this is probably why Cook even showed up at this conference to begin with). If they want to shut you down they can just pile on unreasonable demands until you quit. Try applying for a journalist Visa without connections in mainland China to get a taste if this kind of functioning. To have a company in China you need local partners, and you will have to give up your IP at some point. Apple and Microsoft are still welcome because Apple creates tons of jobs and Microsoft runs on all the computers. If they loose that and still step on Chinese companies market, the tone would change quickly
  - njarboe 9y ago
    This requirement for local partners is even present for doing scientific geology studies in the country. Without a local partner you are not going to get permits to look at rocks and take small samples anywhere in the country. Public lands in the US are wide open to walking around, looking at stuff, and taking a few rocks.
    - taobility 9y ago
      can you understand different countries have different laws? In China, when you buy alcohol in grocery store, nobody would check your ID. Would I say it is invade my privacy by checking my ID/driver license when I trying to buy alcohol?
      - njarboe 9y ago
        Yes, I understand. If you are to do anything in China you will transfer your knowledge to China. The US does not require that. The US should have reciprocal law with respect to China. I actually thought that was the whole point of letting China join the WTO, but I guess I was wrong.
usaphp 9y ago
> He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference Isn’t it the same reason why most of the corrupt people do what they do. There is a lot of money on stake for them and they decide to close their eyes on the corruption around them and actively participate in that vehicle. Cook is doing exactly the same, he is putting money in front of his moral principles. If he is so vocal about freedom or whatever, he should take a stand and do something at least in his own company, if his board or investors are pressuring him - he should quit or do something about it, because right now - whatever he says about fighting for freedom is just a complete farce.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  If you're looking to public for-profit corporations to, of their own volition, take some sort of ethical stand, you're going to be disappointed more often than not.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Agreed. We should expect governments to take ethical stands not for profit companies that only care about profit. Unfortunately western governments are also being totally hypocritical when it comes to China.
    - dailyvijeos 9y ago
      Hypocracy is a bikeshedding dimension. China and the US both serve the politically-connected first and the people last; China does it by force and the US does it by manufacturing consent. Regardless of political system, the people must rise up and demand a fair government and insist on sensible regulations and justice with eternal vigilance. Power never cedes anything without a fight.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - 9y ago
rahimnathwani 9y ago
"Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity." Can you provide an example of a foreign company that was willing to comply with Chinese law, but still faced this outcome?
- EZ-E 9y ago
  Facebook Zuckerberg is all ready to comply and multiply his attempts to get closer to the Chinese government (look it up), but stays blocked.
  - ddorian43 9y ago
    The dude even learned Chinese (mandarin?).
    - musage 9y ago
      It's so. much. worse. http://www.worldtribune.com/archives/chinese-president-snubs-mark-zuckerbergs-request-to-name-his-unborn-child/ http://www.worldtribune.com/archives/chinese-president-snubs... https://www.quora.com/Did-Mark-Zuckerberg-really-ask-Xi-Jinping-to-name-his-daughter https://www.quora.com/Did-Mark-Zuckerberg-really-ask-Xi-Jinp... > In China this privilege is nominally given to the father or grandfather of the child. Asking a complete stranger, albeit a famous one to name your child is unheard of.
      - ddorian43 9y ago
        He even got his wife chinese didn't he ? (i know he met her previously)
      - justaman 9y ago
        Ew, cringe!
  - rahimnathwani 9y ago
    Which company's market share was Facebook 'eating up'?
coliveira 9y ago
China is just playing with the short term vision that is so foolishly characteristic of western companies. The Chinese know that CEOs need growth prospects for the next quarter, even though their actions are impairing the company in the long run. Of course, whatever money they make in China will be at the expenses of their long term IP, technology and market share.
gaius 9y ago
Don't let that detract from Cook's most substantial accomplishment as head of Apple: the animated poop icon
schuke 9y ago
I really appreciate Tim Cook being very pragmatic and non-confrontational in China. We have great products and fierce competition. This in itself gives us much more freedom. The last time a company did the opposite it literally caused death--Google quitting China led to Baidu's ruthless ads for fake hospitals, which claimed many many lives.
- Intermernet 9y ago
  My (admittedly cursory) search on this shows that Baidu's "fake hospital" scandal seems to be a problem with Baidu, not with Google quitting China. Is there evidence to even suggest that if Google search were available in China at the time then people would not have died? I can't offer an opinion on whether or not Google should have tried to maintain more presence in China, but the link between them leaving the market and some people believing dodgy search results from Baidu and basing their critical medical treatment on said results is spurious to say the least.
  - schuke 9y ago
    It's basic economics. Baidu is a monopoly in China's poorly regulated search market. Google before quitting had a market share of 33%. People would at least have had different results to check against Baidu's had Google stayed. Baidu's aggressive and dishonest false ads are closely--if not directly--connected to Google's quitting.
- teknologist 9y ago
  This has to be a troll comment. The logic of this post is ridiculous.
  - schuke 9y ago
    Sadly this is not. I'm surprised people don't get the basic economics at work here. More market=more freedom. That's why we're freer than the Mao-era without having the right to vote for anybody. It's the same logic.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
telltruth 9y ago
TLDR; Cook said “The theme of this conference — developing a digital economy for openness and shared benefits — is a vision we at Apple share,” Cook said, in widely reported remarks. “We are proud to have worked alongside many of our partners in China to help build a community that will join a common future in cyberspace.” To me it looks like Cook is telling a kid who is being bad "thanks for putting in effort and let me work with you to be good". You can interpret this in many ways.
LoSboccacc 9y ago
> even though it interferes with his own point of view uhm, no? you're pushing what you want, what you hope his point of view is unto him. however action talks more than words and as far as we know, as seen here, his point of view that money trumps morality and truthfulness and he'll say whatever his role at Apple demands him to say, both to government and customer, playing both sides for as long as people like you let him a free pass.
andrepd 9y ago
>He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He has to? What are you saying here? What good does it do for him to be very good and have a very righteous point of view, if he does not actually do anything about it. Then sure, sign me the fuck up. I'm such a good person I would even, oh I don't know, I would even sell everything I own and give it to the poor. Unless you actually ask me to do that, in which case I will say "I can't do that, that would cost me a lot of money". But hey, it's the thought that counts, I'm still a good guy! In short, bullshit on that whole argument. He has no principles. Just like any other private company, his one objective is maximising profit. Moral considerations don't enter in the capitalist framework.
jrs95 9y ago
So much for that theory about protectionism not working because other countries will retaliate in the same way. Apparently they won't if they're run by people that worship the free market.
Shivetya 9y ago
considering the heap of money Apple sits on they could just as well leave China. The WTO certainly doesn't hold much sway over China and saying Tim Cook is forced is nonsense, Apple is doing this for money and to hell with any "moral" positions they have, money comes first. So either we accept that they are governed by the dollar or not. Their values only matter in countries where they can take a non risk stand.
- kercker 9y ago
  What do you mean by 'leave China'? Do you mean it stops selling its products in China? Or stop assembling iPhones in China? Or both? According to this page (https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/where-are-apple-products-made-3633832/ https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/where-are-apple-pro...), 'the assembly of Apple's devices is for the most part done in China'. If Apple leaves China suddenly, I don't think it can build that large an assembly line quickly to satisfy the global demand of iPhones. And according this document (https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy17-q4/Q4FY17DataSummary.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy17-q4/Q4FY17DataSummar...), half of Apple's Q4 2017 revenue come from iPhone. So, if the supply of iPhones is greatly reduced, the cash Apple sits on will quickly run out. Then Apple will be in great trouble.
  - theshrike79 9y ago
    Building the actual assembly line is the least of their problems, it's just money and Apple has it by the truckload. The bigger issue is finding enough skilled people for the factories, China is pretty much the only place in the world with enough trained workers in the scale that Apple needs them.
microcolonel 9y ago
> Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China and the money he makes there. > He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference If this were the case, then he could just not show up. I think the lack of principle here ideally should be reflected in their revenues, but somebody has to convince the public that buying in to Apple, is now the same as buying into in to the CPC. Does nobody realize that the CPC has found a way to merge the two most sinister impositions, government censorship and social censorship, into one despair/tyranny manufacturing device?
Chaebixi 9y ago
> Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity. > For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the local companies Not that Baidu has any foreign market-share, but this seems like something that should prompt a tit-for-tat trade-policy response, even if it's in another area of trade.

by EZ-E 9y ago

thisthatandthe 9y ago

any company stupid enough to go to China and give up its intellectual properties deserves to die. 1.3B people?! let me get a piece of that. Oh, and let my stuff get copied and stolen, and I'll lose the US market and the entire world market, which is way bigger than the Chinese market.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dang 9y ago
We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines. Nationalistic rants aren't welcome here.
- cisanti 9y ago
  What is wrong with nationalism? You really have the censor dick deep up your white ass.

longcheng 9y ago

Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Google was allowed to operate in China, and it decided it did NOT want to follow the law and quit. Google was an underdog in Chinese search anyway when it operated in China. It simply failed to compete against Bidu. Amazon has been operating in China since 2000ish. It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong. Facebook will definitely lose to Tecent/Weixin in China market even if it is allowed. Cisco lost to Huawei everywhere in the world except in US, where Huawei is forbidden... Microsoft and Apple are doing well in China because they follow the local law and actually create value to local customers. It's a changed world.

EZ-E 9y ago
> Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Following laws is normal, but Tim Cook shouldn't both comply on censorship, and right after promote an "open internet" conference hosted by the government that just told you remove the VPN from your app store. China doesn't have rule of law, it rules BY law. Laws and their enforcement apply differently if you're local company or foreign company. Also differently whether you're in good terms with the government or not (this is probably why Cook even showed up at this conference to begin with). If they want to shut you down they can just pile on unreasonable demands until you quit. Try applying for a journalist Visa without connections in mainland China to get a taste if this kind of functioning. To have a company in China you need local partners, and you will have to give up your IP at some point. Apple and Microsoft are still welcome because Apple creates tons of jobs and Microsoft runs on all the computers. If they loose that and still step on Chinese companies market, the tone would change quickly
- njarboe 9y ago
  This requirement for local partners is even present for doing scientific geology studies in the country. Without a local partner you are not going to get permits to look at rocks and take small samples anywhere in the country. Public lands in the US are wide open to walking around, looking at stuff, and taking a few rocks.
  - taobility 9y ago
    can you understand different countries have different laws? In China, when you buy alcohol in grocery store, nobody would check your ID. Would I say it is invade my privacy by checking my ID/driver license when I trying to buy alcohol?
    - njarboe 9y ago
      Yes, I understand. If you are to do anything in China you will transfer your knowledge to China. The US does not require that. The US should have reciprocal law with respect to China. I actually thought that was the whole point of letting China join the WTO, but I guess I was wrong.

usaphp 9y ago

> He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference Isn’t it the same reason why most of the corrupt people do what they do. There is a lot of money on stake for them and they decide to close their eyes on the corruption around them and actively participate in that vehicle. Cook is doing exactly the same, he is putting money in front of his moral principles. If he is so vocal about freedom or whatever, he should take a stand and do something at least in his own company, if his board or investors are pressuring him - he should quit or do something about it, because right now - whatever he says about fighting for freedom is just a complete farce.

emodendroket 9y ago
If you're looking to public for-profit corporations to, of their own volition, take some sort of ethical stand, you're going to be disappointed more often than not.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Agreed. We should expect governments to take ethical stands not for profit companies that only care about profit. Unfortunately western governments are also being totally hypocritical when it comes to China.
  - dailyvijeos 9y ago
    Hypocracy is a bikeshedding dimension. China and the US both serve the politically-connected first and the people last; China does it by force and the US does it by manufacturing consent. Regardless of political system, the people must rise up and demand a fair government and insist on sensible regulations and justice with eternal vigilance. Power never cedes anything without a fight.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - 9y ago

rahimnathwani 9y ago

"Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity." Can you provide an example of a foreign company that was willing to comply with Chinese law, but still faced this outcome?

EZ-E 9y ago
Facebook Zuckerberg is all ready to comply and multiply his attempts to get closer to the Chinese government (look it up), but stays blocked.
- ddorian43 9y ago
  The dude even learned Chinese (mandarin?).
  - musage 9y ago
    It's so. much. worse. http://www.worldtribune.com/archives/chinese-president-snubs-mark-zuckerbergs-request-to-name-his-unborn-child/ http://www.worldtribune.com/archives/chinese-president-snubs... https://www.quora.com/Did-Mark-Zuckerberg-really-ask-Xi-Jinping-to-name-his-daughter https://www.quora.com/Did-Mark-Zuckerberg-really-ask-Xi-Jinp... > In China this privilege is nominally given to the father or grandfather of the child. Asking a complete stranger, albeit a famous one to name your child is unheard of.
    - ddorian43 9y ago
      He even got his wife chinese didn't he ? (i know he met her previously)
    - justaman 9y ago
      Ew, cringe!
- rahimnathwani 9y ago
  Which company's market share was Facebook 'eating up'?

coliveira 9y ago

China is just playing with the short term vision that is so foolishly characteristic of western companies. The Chinese know that CEOs need growth prospects for the next quarter, even though their actions are impairing the company in the long run. Of course, whatever money they make in China will be at the expenses of their long term IP, technology and market share.

gaius 9y ago

Don't let that detract from Cook's most substantial accomplishment as head of Apple: the animated poop icon

schuke 9y ago

I really appreciate Tim Cook being very pragmatic and non-confrontational in China. We have great products and fierce competition. This in itself gives us much more freedom. The last time a company did the opposite it literally caused death--Google quitting China led to Baidu's ruthless ads for fake hospitals, which claimed many many lives.

Intermernet 9y ago
My (admittedly cursory) search on this shows that Baidu's "fake hospital" scandal seems to be a problem with Baidu, not with Google quitting China. Is there evidence to even suggest that if Google search were available in China at the time then people would not have died? I can't offer an opinion on whether or not Google should have tried to maintain more presence in China, but the link between them leaving the market and some people believing dodgy search results from Baidu and basing their critical medical treatment on said results is spurious to say the least.
- schuke 9y ago
  It's basic economics. Baidu is a monopoly in China's poorly regulated search market. Google before quitting had a market share of 33%. People would at least have had different results to check against Baidu's had Google stayed. Baidu's aggressive and dishonest false ads are closely--if not directly--connected to Google's quitting.
teknologist 9y ago
This has to be a troll comment. The logic of this post is ridiculous.
- schuke 9y ago
  Sadly this is not. I'm surprised people don't get the basic economics at work here. More market=more freedom. That's why we're freer than the Mao-era without having the right to vote for anybody. It's the same logic.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

telltruth 9y ago

TLDR; Cook said “The theme of this conference — developing a digital economy for openness and shared benefits — is a vision we at Apple share,” Cook said, in widely reported remarks. “We are proud to have worked alongside many of our partners in China to help build a community that will join a common future in cyberspace.” To me it looks like Cook is telling a kid who is being bad "thanks for putting in effort and let me work with you to be good". You can interpret this in many ways.

LoSboccacc 9y ago

> even though it interferes with his own point of view uhm, no? you're pushing what you want, what you hope his point of view is unto him. however action talks more than words and as far as we know, as seen here, his point of view that money trumps morality and truthfulness and he'll say whatever his role at Apple demands him to say, both to government and customer, playing both sides for as long as people like you let him a free pass.

andrepd 9y ago

>He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He has to? What are you saying here? What good does it do for him to be very good and have a very righteous point of view, if he does not actually do anything about it. Then sure, sign me the fuck up. I'm such a good person I would even, oh I don't know, I would even sell everything I own and give it to the poor. Unless you actually ask me to do that, in which case I will say "I can't do that, that would cost me a lot of money". But hey, it's the thought that counts, I'm still a good guy! In short, bullshit on that whole argument. He has no principles. Just like any other private company, his one objective is maximising profit. Moral considerations don't enter in the capitalist framework.

jrs95 9y ago

So much for that theory about protectionism not working because other countries will retaliate in the same way. Apparently they won't if they're run by people that worship the free market.

Shivetya 9y ago

considering the heap of money Apple sits on they could just as well leave China. The WTO certainly doesn't hold much sway over China and saying Tim Cook is forced is nonsense, Apple is doing this for money and to hell with any "moral" positions they have, money comes first. So either we accept that they are governed by the dollar or not. Their values only matter in countries where they can take a non risk stand.

kercker 9y ago
What do you mean by 'leave China'? Do you mean it stops selling its products in China? Or stop assembling iPhones in China? Or both? According to this page (https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/where-are-apple-products-made-3633832/ https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/apple/where-are-apple-pro...), 'the assembly of Apple's devices is for the most part done in China'. If Apple leaves China suddenly, I don't think it can build that large an assembly line quickly to satisfy the global demand of iPhones. And according this document (https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy17-q4/Q4FY17DataSummary.pdf https://www.apple.com/newsroom/pdfs/fy17-q4/Q4FY17DataSummar...), half of Apple's Q4 2017 revenue come from iPhone. So, if the supply of iPhones is greatly reduced, the cash Apple sits on will quickly run out. Then Apple will be in great trouble.
- theshrike79 9y ago
  Building the actual assembly line is the least of their problems, it's just money and Apple has it by the truckload. The bigger issue is finding enough skilled people for the factories, China is pretty much the only place in the world with enough trained workers in the scale that Apple needs them.

microcolonel 9y ago

> Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China and the money he makes there. > He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference If this were the case, then he could just not show up. I think the lack of principle here ideally should be reflected in their revenues, but somebody has to convince the public that buying in to Apple, is now the same as buying into in to the CPC. Does nobody realize that the CPC has found a way to merge the two most sinister impositions, government censorship and social censorship, into one despair/tyranny manufacturing device?

Chaebixi 9y ago

> Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity. > For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the local companies Not that Baidu has any foreign market-share, but this seems like something that should prompt a tit-for-tat trade-policy response, even if it's in another area of trade.