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American Airlines Accidentally Let Too Many Pilots Take the Holidays Off
- coo1k 9y agoJust curious, technically what stops AA from simply cancelling the approved holidays? I'm not saying they should, just want to know can AA or any employer for that matter cancel a granted time off? Are there any legal implications for that?
- tyingq 9y agoUnion work rules. Pilot unions have a lot of leverage.
- mig39 9y agoDo they use the same software as Ryanair? http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41298931 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41298931
- cbhl 9y agoAmerican Airlines created their own computer system (SABRE) in the 60s. It spun off into its own company in the 2000s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_Corporation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre_Corporation
- telesilla 9y agoI have a memory of accessing SABRE directly maybe in the late 90s to bypass travel agent websites, before services like Expedia etc exploded. Is that possible? Or am I remembering incorrectly.
- LeoPanthera 9y agoYes, it used to be accessible directly, and still is, at least with one level of indirection, via https://www.virtuallythere.com/ https://www.virtuallythere.com/ But this is also a red herring because I don't think sabre is used to manage pilots times off.
- soared 9y agoYou can find some interesting results by googling site:virtuallythere.com
- imroot 9y agoI think AA is still using SABRE internally for some components for crew scheduling; I did some SABRE work for them back in 2005/2006 as a contractor, and there were still bits and pieces of legacy code from the 90's in place when I was over there.
- js2 9y agoYou could access SABRE pre-1996 via online services such as The Source, CompuServe, GEnie and AOL. Sabre Holdings launched Travelocity in 1996.
- vermontdevil 9y agoI remember this too. Used to go in there to look around and play with all he variables (flight schedule, fares, etc). I think it was called EaasySabre
- tyingq 9y agoTrue, though that has little to do with crew scheduling and bidding software.
- jakub_g 9y agoRyanair's problems are due to the fact that they were obliged to change their holiday year to follow European regulations, and they postponed this change for too long (to milk as much money from lucrative summer period). This, plus the fact that now many pilots are/will be soon over their allowed Flight Time Limitations. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair-cancellations-flights-why-cancelled-truth-latest-a7953251.html https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ryanair...
- pmontra 9y agoRyanair's problem is also that many pilots are leaving for companies with a better salary https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4512660/pilots-leave-ryanair-michael-oleary-treatment-claims/ https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4512660/pilots-leave-ryanair-m...
- rorykoehler 9y agoRyanair were lying. All their pilots left to fly for better airlines who are on hiring sprees like Norwegian Air.
- baby 9y agoThey also were forced because there were strikes in France. I got my flight cancelled because of that but got ~400$ in compensation. BTW the exact same thing happened to Easyjet. My gf’s flight from barcelona to London got cancelled and she had to find a place to stay for one more day and a different flight. Easyjet refuses to refund or compensate her, mentioning strikes in France. Same shit as Ryanair, different reactions. Anybody knows what are our recourse?
- moonka 9y ago>We have reserve pilots to help cover flying in December, and we are paying pilots who pick up certain open trips 150 percent of their hourly rate — as much as we are allowed to pay them per the contract Interesting that there is a maximum rate. >In a post to its website, the union warned its members that because "management unilaterally created their solution in violation of the contract, neither APA nor the contract can guarantee the promised payment of the premium being offered." Looks like the pilots trust AA less than I do when they promise vouchers.
- maxxxxx 9y ago"we are paying pilots who pick up certain open trips 150 percent of their hourly rate " In most tech companies they would maybe give you an extra pizza but certainly no extra pay.
- chrisseaton 9y agoThat's because most tech companies pay a salary rather than an hourly rate.
- user5994461 9y agoIsnt't a salary just a predefined quota of hours and rate?
- Alupis 9y ago> Isnt't a salary just a predefined quota of hours and rate? That depends on one's employment contract.
- vanadium 9y agoIn most companies I've been exposed to, it's the _minimum_ expected effort for the rate. It's also why one of the first career mentorship steps I go through with Juniors is calculating their hourly rate with the assumption of 40 hours a week (per the ostensible employee agreement), and then calculating it against the _real_ hours worked per week after taking a position. You'd be surprised how illuminating that's been to those Juniors, and how much of an imprint it left on those folks as they progressed in their careers. A lot of people in our industry genuinely don't recognize how much they devalue themselves and diluting their hourly rate when they're putting in 60-80 hours a week.
- Xenos_Ender 9y agoCurious... considering the consolidation of the airlines industry, wouldn't that affect the ability for the market to absorb the excess demand? (Assuming the other major airlines are saturated...)
- simonjgreen 9y agoSame thing happened to Ryanair recently as well.
- ratsimihah 9y ago"Arbitrary passengers above the age of 18 years old will be designated as pilots upon boarding by the same software who scheduled vacations. Merry Christmas to everyone!"
- mjevans 9y agoIt does make you wonder about just outsourcing everything to auto-pilot... particularly for the safe domestic routes.
- bsder 9y agoI suspect safer than the average pilot. You would be surprised at how often the human pilot is sleep deprived or hung over.
- wutbrodo 9y agoYea but we already use automated systems in the air. We're talking about going from human+computer to only computer. Unlike with driving, where split second reaction time for humans is at more of a premium, i cant imagine this wouldnt be strictly worse.
- Wingman4l7 9y agoAutopilot's role and level of capability is often grossly overstated: (All but the last link are from Patrick Smith, a commercial pilot, author of the "Ask the Pilot" column and my go-to for debunking this particular myth) http://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/automation-myths/ http://www.askthepilot.com/questionanswers/automation-myths/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/12/12/cockpit-confidential-the-autopilot-myth/ http://freakonomics.com/2011/12/12/cockpit-confidential-the-... http://blog.expertflyer.com/expertflyer/2011/09/ask-the-pilot-series-part-3-of-6-cockpit-automation/ http://blog.expertflyer.com/expertflyer/2011/09/ask-the-pilo... http://flyingforeveryone.blogspot.com/2012/01/autopilot-myth-what-your-pilot-really.html http://flyingforeveryone.blogspot.com/2012/01/autopilot-myth... I'm unsure what you mean by route "safety" -- how easily autopilot could be used to automate a flight depends on weather, how busy the airports are, mechanical condition of the aircraft, etc.
- XR0CSWV3h3kZWg 9y agoWho uses ya'll as opposed to y'all? What would ya'll even be an abbreviation for?
- unethical_ban 9y agoAs a kid I saw it both ways. Like "ya all" shortened to ya'll. I agree that "you all" shortened to "y'all" is the appropriate form.
- romwell 9y agoSince "ya" is "I" in Russian (transliterated), the only logical conclusion is that "ya'll" is an abbreviation for "Ya will", as in "Ya will rock you".
- macintux 9y agoI grew weary of seeing it wrong, which is nearly all the time on Twitter. https://twitter.com/macintux/status/464960888441552896?s=17 https://twitter.com/macintux/status/464960888441552896?s=17
- jimnotgym 9y agoWell this is crying out for a high tech solution. Paper holiday chart as a service. For a fixed monthly fee of $10 per employee I will send them an annual holiday chart they can put on their wall. There is the premium version which comes with little coloured stickers.
- quickthrower2 9y ago"American Airlines' pilot scheduling system..." Sounds like they have the high tech, but it has a bug. They could fix the bug, and suck up the expense of paying extra $$$ to pilots who give up their holidays. Or they could opt for a "move fast 'n' break things" startup that is 12 months away from a "sorry we're closing" page.
- flerchin 9y agoCrew scheduling is complex. At the large airline I used to work for (not AA), they ran network solvers that took months to optimally resolve. Intermediate solutions were available, but the constraints of union contracts, labor laws, the location of people, and the changing schedule of flights meant that optimally solving for minimum labor costs, and impact to our crews' lives, was not trivial.
- kevinmhickey 9y agoI too have worked on airline crew scheduling. The merging of union contracts, federal regulations, company policies and, like you said, the changing flight schedule, created insane complexity. The fact that the whole system at all airlines is essentially auction-based with seniority being the currency of the realm is pretty interesting. The low-rank crew seeing time off available those days had to be pretty shocking.
- jimnotgym 9y agoI wonder how far away we are from self flying planes? Whilst there is the added problem of the third dimension over cars, perhaps this domain suffers less from the problem of lots of disorderly users in the same space?
- bogomipz 9y agoSo the same widely publicized "glitch" that affected Ryan Aira couple is now affecting American Airlines in the US? Seems suspicious. Also the Ryan Air glitch didn't cause this to register with anyone in management at American Airlines when it was big news a few months ago?
- kijeda 9y agoIt seems like the inverse of the Ryanair situation. There, they needed their pilots to take vacation en masse to remain in compliance, here they need pilots to not take vacation.
- bogomipz 9y agoYes but it's the same basic math in both cases. Equally egregious given that these companies are essentially in the logistics business.
- notjustanymike 9y agoThis is the one time an accidental "drop database;" would be welcomed by management.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- NTDF9 9y agoDid they use NoSql to pull their pilot records?
- rdl 9y agoI'd hate to work at a company (as employee or management) with such bad labor relations that "we screwed up on scheduling" can't be resolved reasonably. "If we offer your a bonus, you might not get paid the bonus" either means the management is horrible/dishonest or the union are assholes and bitter about being excluded from negotiations, or more likely, both.
- djrogers 9y agoReading the tone of Union's response to all of this - including the grievance they filed, I'm inclined to think it's the latter. [1]https://www.alliedpilots.org/News/ID/5646/Holiday-Scheduling-Failure https://www.alliedpilots.org/News/ID/5646/Holiday-Scheduling...
- rdl 9y agoWhile I'm against most unions today (at least in the US, and especially in the public sector), I do think the German industrial unions (where they have works councils with management, etc.) are a pretty good counterexample.
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoThe entire point of a union is to prohibit members from making deals that are individually better but worse for members as a whole. The union here is in principle correct for wanting to be able to keep pilots from selling "fix the scheduling" too cheaply back to the airline.
- xor1 9y agoWhy isn't there a bigger push to hire more pilots? Especially when you consider how badly the American pilot industry needs diversification. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
- Aaronn 9y agoThere is a massive shortage of pilots. Right now pilots are being hired at regional carriers and flowing through to the mainline carriers extremely quickly.
- goldesel 9y agoImagine if this was United Airlines: They'd send security staff to the homes of vacationing pilots and have them forcibly escorted back into the cockpit, ha!
- rb666 9y agoSeems these are not really new issues, shitty software is shitty: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk-blog/article115706413.html http://www.star-telegram.com/news/business/aviation/sky-talk...
- nikosl7 9y agoNobody ran the feasibility checker at the very end?
- therockspush 9y agoI wonder how many of these pilots planned to fly AA flights to get to their vacation destination.
- PrimalDual 9y agoI’ve wondered lately how far away we are from automated air travel especially with the impending advent of self-driving cars. I understand that it’s a technological hurdle to get to the level of reliability and robustness required to trust hundreds of lives to a machine. But I wonder if self-driving cars will change people’s perspective on it. I also don’t know what the unsolved problems in the area are.
- peterburkimsher 9y agoAmerican Airlines are having problems with pilots taking off... the holidays, not the planes.