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Apology after Japanese train departs 20 seconds early
- jdlyga 9y agoJapan is adorable. In New York, we're grateful to have trains that work at all.
- rbjorklin 9y agoSweden’s the same :/ I commute by train to work and every week I’m loosing minutes and sometimes hours.
- arkitaip 9y agoIn Sweden we're still struggling with leaves falling on the tracks. And snowfall. And "extreme" heat (30C).
- baud147258 9y agoWe got the leaves problems in France too! At least the snowfall problem is much rarer.
- AznHisoka 9y agoThat's the only thing I pay big taxes to NY for - the convenient trains (what else is NY useful for?). And they can't even get that right!
- nemo44x 9y agoI empathize with the MTA a bit. It's an old system that is probably underfunded and operated by a very strong union which costs a lot of money. There are still parts of the system that no manufacturer builds for anymore requiring staff machinists to custom make parts. The signaling system is ancient and any real effort to modernize it (like on the L line) is fought by the union which considers modernization a threat to jobs. Lastly, it's a system that runs 24 hours a day which almost no other train system can claim. finding times for the appropriate maintenance is very difficult and requires all the rerouting you tend to see on the weekends. People litter so much more in NYC than they do in other major cities across the world in my experience and litter on the tracks causes so many issues. And there's little to no time to clear litter daily off the tracks. The system is underfunded, oversubscribed and outdated.
- AznHisoka 9y agoTotally understand. I can appreciate that, and acknowledge the difficulty of maintaining such a legacy system. Just don't have the nerve to increase my taxes if you give that excuse though.
- tech2 9y agoTry southern England - http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/southern-rail http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/southern-rail - it's comically bad.
- darrenf 9y agoTo clarify, as that paints a fairly broad brush: Southern Rail cover a dense but geographically small part of southern England. Their reputation is rightfully poor, but in large part because their performance is exceptionally worse than most other franchises, I believe? To put it another way: large parts of southern England are served by reliable train operators (IMO and IME - source: 20+ years of commuting on South Western Railway, née South West Trains).
- swampthinker 9y agoOne thing I want to point out is that if I am reading the reports correctly, the JR system is actually a very profitable corporation. What would it take to get a profitable train system in the US?
- kalleboo 9y agoMassive population density increases. JR also has a decent income from real estate. Train stations are in prime locations, and have a lot of foot traffic, so they build malls around them.
- ruddct 9y agoI suspect it's more of a cultural/political problem than a density problem. NYC has a considerably higher population density than Tokyo and has an abysmally expensive/inefficient rail system. American public transportation systems, even here in the densest part of the country, are easy political whipping boys. Blame whatever you'd like (cars, highways, unions, politicians, etc), it appears that Americans don't care too much about fixing their transportation infrastructure if those fixes don't involve cars.
- GolDDranks 9y ago> NYC has a considerably higher population density than Tokyo It's the other way around, Tokyo has higher population density: New York City: Land area: 784 km2 Population density: 10,431 ppl / km2 The Special Wards of Tokyo: Land area: 619 km2 Population density: 15,146 ppl / km2
- luckyt 9y agoThis comparison seems a bit unfair -- the special wards are the most densely populated parts of Tokyo. You should compare either New York City <-> Tokyo Metro Area, or Special Wards of Tokyo <-> Manhattan.
- 9y ago
- hyperion2010 9y agoWhen I took the train from Narita into Tokyo the train would sit at stations for often 5 minutes and leave exactly when scheduled. Well over half the boarding passengers arrived in the last 30 seconds. Leaving 20 seconds early is a HUGE screw up in a system like that.
- dljsjr 9y agoI was just in Japan a few months ago, bouncing around Tokyo/Narita/Takasaki/Asahi and I experienced the exact same thing. Their rail system really does operate like clockwork.
- RIMR 9y agoJapan calls itself a "Machine Civilization" for a reason.
- xbzbanna 9y agoFascinating. Are the passengers walking to the station and know exactly how long the walk takes? Or is it some closely timed transfer from another source?
- hyperion2010 9y agoMost of the stations were only a single line, so no transfers. It seemed that the passengers knew exactly what time they needed to leave to make it to the station on time.
- 21 9y agoWell, I live in London close to the end of one of the tube lines, and I try to leave home at 8:58 so that I can be on the platform when the 9:04 train arrives :) Of course, being London sometimes the times are off and the system probably wouldn't work if the station was not close to the ends (less predictability due to random delays)
- jsonne 9y ago
- socrates1998 9y agoThe train guys all compete with each other in Japan to be as close as possible to exactly arriving and leaving at the scheduled time. You will often have a train/subway stop before it gets to the platform, just a 200 or 300 or so meters away, then start again. I heard this was so that they would arrive at exactly the time they were supposed to arrive. It's one of the things I miss most about Japan, a simply amazing dedication to their craft.
- pc86 9y agoMeanwhile, people had to sit on a train that was stopped 200 meters away from the platform for no reason.
- cryptoz 9y ago> for no reason Keeping trains on schedule is a reason. A very good reason to do something. It is unlikely that earlier arrival would have benefited anyone in cases like this, where they likely would have had to wait the equivalent time at a different transfer stop or signal, given that the whole system is timed so well.
- lmm 9y agoHow does waiting outside the station keep trains on schedule any better than waiting in the platform? And while people with appointments may not benefit from the train arriving earlier, people who are just going shopping / to the park / what-have-you definitely do.
- cryptoz 9y agoI'm not sure it's any better at all! It's likely also a cultural difference, as I would prefer to use a system that would arrive early. I'm just saying that there are reasons a train system might like its trains to arrive on schedule, rather than early or late. Saying that there are "no reasons" to arrive on schedule is just silly. There are lots.
- 9y ago
- gpvos 9y agoIn the Netherlands, several years ago they changed the rule for closing the doors: the rule used to be that (if the train is on time, which is actually the case about 90% of the time here) the train doors didn't close before departure time, so what happened was that the whistle was blown just before the departure minute and the doors started to close at the top of the minute or a few seconds after it. Now the rule is that the train should depart at the top of the minute, so everything is shifted about 10 to 15 seconds earlier. A change that really has no benefit for anyone. But I wonder what the rule for this is in other countries?
- nicoburns 9y agoIn the UK "Doors may close up to 30 seconds before the advertised departure time" is regularly announced at most train stations.
- hanoz 9y agoIn my part of the UK the system is that the guard closes every door except the one he's leaning out of, typically around 5 to 10 minutes after the scheduled departure time. Someone then looms in to view at the other end of the platform upon whom the guard takes pity but inexplicably refuses to open the other doors and the passenger is compelled to run the entire length of the train to board at the guard's door.
- gpvos 9y agoMinutes or seconds? I'm talking about the case where the train is basically on time. Although from what I've heard, people in the UK don't have much experience with that... (j/k)
- teekert 9y agoAs someone who lives a couple of minutes of biking away from the train station, a train leaving 20 sec early would be extremely annoying and would cause me more delay than a train leaving 25 minutes late. I'd appreciate an apology.
- bitL 9y agoProgression: In Japan, people are nervous if a train departs early/late by 30 seconds. In Switzerland, people are nervous when a train is 2 minutes late. In Germany, people are nervous when a train is 10 minutes late (unless you are passing through Frankfurt, where you can expect 30 minutes) In Italy, people are happy a train shows up (hello Naples).
- JustSomeNobody 9y agoIn the USA, "High speed rail? What's that?"
- mullen 9y ago"You'll see in a few years" - California.
- alexanderstears 9y agoMore like a few decades, and California gets to exhibit an unusually slow and expensive train.
- ghostly_s 9y ago> "You'll see in a few years" - California, c. 1992 Fixed that for you.
- mullen 9y agoYou know were building a HSR now? It will take 15 - 20 years to complete, but we're building it.
- jabretti 9y agoI will believe it when I see it. Assuming that some day I have a pressing need to travel from Bakersfield to Fresno, that is, because as I understand it there's still no commitment to construct the other parts. Train advocates assume that once the middle part is built the rest will inevitably follow, while train skeptics are looking forward to mocking the puny ridership numbers on the nowhere-to-nowhere line and saying "I told you so".
- deepsun 9y agoHow do they work out around impossibility to perfectly synchronize clocks at a distance due to special relativity?
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoThey work around it by having the stations not move with respect to each other.
- deepsun 9y agoWell, I was joking... Obviously, microseconds don't matter there. By the way, stations do move with respect to each other due to Earth rotation. Nevertheless, it's still theoretically impossible to perfectly synchronize two clocks even if they don't move with respect to each other. It's tightly coupled to problem of measuring speed of light in one direction. We cannot do that, we can only measure there-and-back speed, and then divide it by two.But there's no way to show that those are actually equal legs.
- harel 9y agoIn the UK a train being approximately on time would merit a news item.
- rrdharan 9y agoIt's kind of funny to think that in the west we're only ever likely to match the punctuality of Japanese humans by replacing our humans with Japanese robots.
- eecc 9y agoSuch things are funny until they’re not any more. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash
- virgulino 9y agoThere is a danger to this punctuality. In the 2005 rail crash, with 100 deaths, it was found that "a contributing factor in the accident was the JR West policy of schedule punctuality". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amagasaki_rail_crash
- CodeSheikh 9y agoMeanwhile, New York Subway (MTA): "We sincerely apologise for the inconvenience of arriving on time"
- Feniks 9y agoJapanese trains and metro are all carefully orchestrated. Just one minute is enough to miss a connection. It really screws up people's routine.
- readhn 9y agoThis is why I keep buying Lexus/Toyota cars. Their production system is the reason for making most reliable vehicles on the road today. Period. This apology is just a reflection of how they approach their jobs (with pride). High Quality speaks volumes.
- nexuslab 9y agoWOW! I wish the DOT in Los Angeles was like this.
- Silhouette 9y agoI love this. In a slightly less dramatic variation, I was on holiday in Italy once and a local train arrived in Rome about 3 minutes late. As we came into the station, the loudspeaker offered Trenitalia's apologies in no fewer than three different languages. Here in the UK, I think trains have to be at least 17 hours overdue before they're considered late, approximately 2 lifetimes overdue before you get any compensation, and somewhere around the death of our sun before you'll see anything done to make good any resulting harm beyond the price of a ticket...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- II2II 9y agoThe part that I admire is that they noticed the early departure and issued an apology without receiving complaints. That demonstrates a lot more integrity than the operators of the public transportation network in my city, where they claim that declining ridership is a natural consequence of them improving their service.
- stordoff 9y agoTo be fair, I've made connections (not in Japan) with seconds to spare due to prior train delays. I'd be pretty annoyed if I missed one due to a train leaving early, even when such punctuality isn't generally expected.
- dfox 9y agoIn most public transit systems that run according to published timetable departing early is taken as more serious issue than departing late. It might seem counterintuitive, but inconvenience caused to passengers by arriving/departing late (small additional wait time) is significantly smaller than by departing early (missing the connection entirely and having to wait for the next one). IIRC in Prague's transit system drivers are fined for not observing the timetable without external cause and the fine for departing even one second early is same as for being several minutes late (and is relatively significant fraction of their monthly salary).
- johnvonneumann 9y agoShoutout to all my Melbourne people who experience Metro trains on a regular basis.
- phonon 9y ago"Repent, Harlequin!" Said the Ticktockman
- ryguytilidie 9y agoMy BART train this morning was stuck in the transbay tube for about 40 minutes this morning because a train in front of ours had someone get stuck in the door. Our conductor spent those 40 minutes of us sitting in a hot train bitching at us for someone else getting stuck in the doors. There's literally just zero professionalism/pride in your work from so many people nowadays.
- mschuster91 9y agoHow does the Japanese system live with the stuff that plagues Western transportation systems? For example in Munich there is nearly every day one or more huuuge delays due to: - people on the track (sprayers, drunkards, people whose phone fell down) - animals on the track, ranging from stray dogs over wolves to deer - and in some cases, entire herds of sheep... one caused an ICE to derail and destroy a huge amount of tunnel track in the progress once. - suicides (1.000 suicides in Germany per year, and that's only the successful ones) - accidents on street crossings (okay, that's eliminated on the highspeed tracks, but regional traffic and metro rails suffer often enough) - kids letting balloons loose in the underground sections, where they shorten out the power line, sometimes causing major destruction - and occasionally it's a bird that does the same and ends up grilled - absolute morons who do not make room for people trying to exit the train - people with disabilities (wheelchair users, but also old people who simply have problems moving!), who sometimes need to be attended by the conductor, e.g. to put out a ramp - technical breakdowns However, in Japan this seems to be nearly unheard of.
- acchow 9y agoA visit to Japan will be eye opening for you. The culture is unlike anywhere else I have ever seen.
- kysol 9y agoEvery time I've returned from Japan, I've always felt compelled to do my best where every I could. Sounds cheesy, but there is something about how well everything runs and has a place that makes you feel energised. がんばって ^^
- mirceal 9y agothe answer is in the question. Except for the technical breakdowns, all the other are caused by people. People stop doing stupid shit -> train can be on time. It's a cultural problem mostly. In Japan, you don't do the stupid shit (or you do it in private) and in exchange the train is on time. Every day!
- 9y ago
- sushid 9y agoThere was a minor EARTHQUAKE when I was in Japan. A very apologetic lady working at the ticketing booth told me that there will be a delay. I asked what the delay will be and it was something less than 2 minutes (1 minute and 20 seconds or something).
- jondubois 9y agoThe London train system is one of the worst in the world. - It's very expensive. - Different parts of the network are managed by different companies which creates a lot of confusion around tickets and smart cards. - The stations are relatively ugly. - Signs are confusing if you're not used to the system. - Trains from different lines often share platforms. Sometimes two trains that have the same destination might stop at different stations and it's not obvious which train corresponds to which line. - The underground trains themselves are often narrow; difficult to stand straight. - They are often crowded so you often do end up having to stand up. - Delays are common and trains don't come very often considering how many people live in London.
- tashoecraft 9y agohaha, this is very funny as having used both the London tube and the NYC system, I dream about the tube. It's better in every way. Trains are nicer, stations cleaner, people are much more courteous. NYC is almost guaranteed standing on many lines at all times of the day.
- RLN 9y agoDo you mean the privately run overground lines? The tube is to me a bit of a marvel, with the newer lines having a train come every 3 minutes at peak times. Even the overground lines which used to be not so great have been taken over by TfL and are quite good in my opinion. I can see how the tube could be a bit difficult to navigate for a newcomer but once you're used to it I believe it's got some of the best signposting I've seen on a metro system.
- m3kw9 9y agoThese guys time the door to close to match the time of departure, I.e if the door and the warning tone takes 5 seconds, they’d press the close button 5 seconds before the time of departure, and the door motors are calibrated to be precisely to close in a certain speed always. They have timers to make sure they are not off. So that’s why 20 seconds to them is like an embarrassment
- renzon 9y agoI just use pyup (https://pyup.io/ https://pyup.io/) for Python projects and it works like a charm. It not only show vulnerabilities but also updates and Python 3 incompatibilities.
- gdrift 9y agoIt's a cultural thing because "It's painful to be caught between the closing doors. Even more so are the eye of those looking at you." http://www.rifters.com/crawl/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/doors.jpg http://www.rifters.com/crawl/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/door...
- anonu 9y agoConversely, if the train are late in Japan - even by a minute or two - the conductor will give you a paper note that you can show to your boss to prove that you were late for reasons beyond your control.
- itsthejb 9y agoWhilst this is a lot of fun, and the Japanese transport system is certainly something to be generally admired and imitated, unless I'm the only one here, just wanted to point out that there is a dark side to this also: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2007/01/09/editorials/driving-a-train-under-pressure/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2007/01/09/editorials/d... Takami apparently was worried about being punished for overrunning Itami Station. In the past, he had received punitive education three times for errors and had his wages and bonuses docked. JR West’s education program, which included writing “soul searching” compositions, was known to be humiliating.