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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
- dagaci 9y agoRegardless, if 90% of a population wishes to be independent, then they should be allowed to have that independence as long as both sides are prepared to adhere to sensible law and order, humane rights and decency.
- davidpelayo 9y agoJust in case this converges into normality (if it becomes), how do you think this could affect to investment of tech startups in Barcelona area?
- ryanlol 9y agoHard to predict. Not looking good on the short term, but who knows what the Catalan government might do to change that.
- jaoued 9y agoI do hope this announcement will not turn into a civil war or something similar. Our startup has been selected to start NUMA winter batch next week, and the last thing we want to have is blood on the street.
- pvaldes 9y agoStartups should take this question very seriously, if in their future plans are expecting to sell anything, the tiniest of their products or services, to the rest of Spaniards. Tech people working for the regional government to promote the independence of Catalonia were basically fired a few hours ago by the president Rajoy. They have a problem now (but are available again).
- Numberwang 9y agoThis will end badly...
- matthew349hall 9y agoYup. I don't see any outcome here where at least one party doesn't start flipping out.
- gonvaled 9y agoIt could, but let's remember that the Catalan process to independence has been extremely peaceful for over 40 years.
- icebraining 9y agoEh, I think it depends. If the Spanish government now takes over the Catalonian government and schedules new elections, and the anti⁻independence parties win by a reasonable margin, it may deflate the whole thing. If there's actual major popular support for independence, then yeah, I don't see how the Spanish government can defuse that grenade without major concessions, which I don't see Rajoy accepting, so it could get very messy. (Don't take my opinion very seriously, though; while I have close ties to Spain I don't have any particular knowledge about this situation)
- pbhjpbhj 9y agoIf Catalonia somehow cedes from Spain/EC then there will probably be repercussions around Europe. I was extremely surprised the other day to see a Welsh person who I'm acquainted with calling for civil war against the English. I sincerely hope there are not enough with such madness to make any thing viable in that respect, but the do seem to be substantial communities in other regions of the EC where things could kick off too.
- VMG 9y agoLike Norway and Sweden?
- Boothroid 9y agoI guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?
- ellius 9y agoSo I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?
- ryanlol 9y agoAt least the independistas seem to care about this issue deeply, there’s been much less interest on the other side.
- matthewmacleod 9y agoIt was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to do it “within legal channels”. I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an important issue.
- ddalex 9y ago> outside of legal channels My understanding is that the polls were not universal, but only ran in the Catalonia areas with strong support for independence. And there was no vote security and verification, in fact, people were encouraged to vote multiple times in the same referendum. So the referendum could not be construed as legal.
- alvatar 9y ago
- adekok 9y agoFTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.
- thetxef 9y ago> people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. that is just false. They did not show up because they did not want the referedum to take place.
- nubol 9y agoYeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.
- nubol 9y agoFunny that I got downvoted for saying that, I will say it again, it was not legal, and therefore because the lack of participation is not representing the opinion of the Catalans.
- nubol 9y agoObviously there is no legitimacy on declaring the independence in an unilateral way considering that the referendum was illegal. What is happening is pure "picaresca española" ;)
- CaptSpify 9y agoThen it sucks to be them. You can't blame everyone else for making a decision when you refuse to voice your opinion on said decision.
- beojan 9y agoCan't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.
- johnnyfaehell 9y agoFrom my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly declared it illegal and hoped that would be the end of it. While parties who were against independence were telling people to boycott it and parties for it telling people to vote yes. It seems the only outcome there is a massive yes vote. Once they had the massive yes vote, they have a democratic mandate for independence. Not only that, they get to say they have 90% mandate. The only way forward from that is for the Spanish government to back down and start negotiations or for indepence to be declared. Here we are as Catalan declares independence, which it seems can either turn into a civil war, a flat-out failure with everyone arrested, Spain eating some humble pie to get them back to the table, or Spain just accepting Catalan is gone. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
- chrisbrowning 9y agoThat probably would have been the better move as far as "optics" are concerned, but the Spanish constitution states that this kind of referendum is illegal. In any case -- I think the ruling party in Spain wanted this to flare up so they could consolidate political support during the next election, since most of Spain is adamantly opposed to Catalan independence.
- ryanlol 9y agoNot true. It states that this kind of a referendum is invalid.
- chrisbrowning 9y agoI won't split hairs with you on that, but -- right or wrong -- Spain's Constitutional Court ordered the referendum stopped, and the Spanish government moved to enforce that order.
- 9y ago
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- bitL 9y agoThat was the last chance for them, right? Interesting times... Rajoy is the Spanish Cameron.
- jwr 9y agoWhat I do not understand is how the EU can stand by and watch as one of its member countries limits citizen freedom? Anybody should be able to hold a vote on anything they like. You should not be able to declare a referendum "illegal" (it might turn out that the results have no legal standing, but that doesn't make the vote or the voting itself "illegal"). I am worried that the EU doesn't hold true to its core values.
- jacquesm 9y agoInaction has always been the EU's prefered MO. Only when the shit really hits the fan will they act.
- djsumdog 9y agoThis gets into a deeper philosophical conversation of what is _legal_. Legality is a social construct. After the America civil war, the the succession of the South was declared illegal. http://khanism.org/security/legality/ http://khanism.org/security/legality/ It was also once legal to own slaves and legal for merchants to deny sales and service to blacks. Homosexuality was once illegal. If there is enough moral outrage and enough of the population backing a movement, the legality can change since it is a pure social construct based the belief of the people. For example, people in Texas who want a succession movement. It will never happen because although there are some very loud people for it, less than 2% of the entire population actually supports such an idea. If it one day changes to 60% ~ 70% .. or even up to 80%, what's legal at the Federal level simply won't matter. At that point we'll see the David Graeber argument play out; namely that States work because of their monopoly on violence. We see this today when it comes to American states with recreational cannibals, illegal at the Federal level, yet socially and morally accepted within the states that have legalized it (Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, Colorado, etc.) Personally, I hope I see Cascadia succeeded in my lifetime. I think that would be awesome.
- pvaldes 9y ago> American states with recreational cannibals, illegal at the Federal level, yet socially and morally accepted in Washington, Oregon, California... Wow. You guys are very strange sometimes... XDDD ;) (Halloween is coming. Yup. Definitely. I can feel it in the air).
- jannes 9y agoThe senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government. That should stop tax money flowing... I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Felpais.com%2Fccaa%2F2017%2F10%2F27%2Fcatalunya%2F1509084887_217853.html&sandbox=1 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http... Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.
- ensignavenger 9y agoIf they just declared independence, why would they expect tax money from the government they just separated from?
- k__ 9y agoAlso, aren't they richer than the rest of Spain and don't need their money?
- ben_w 9y agoThe cynic in me says “because humans are like that”. For example, one elected UKIP official expected the EU to pay for a road in the UK after brexit. Wouldn’t be surprised if either Spain or Catalonia now acts confused when someone puts an armed customs inspector on the border roads between them.
- trzmiel4 9y agoThe problem is not so much about Catalonia and Spain. There are plenty of such regions and ethnic groups in pretty much every country on the continent. If the ball starts rolling, it can mean going back a few centuries.
- dorfsmay 9y agoActually when visiting Spain I was really surprised how much of a federation it is vs a single unified country. If Spain is a federation, and Europe is a federation, dies it make sense to keep both?
- setzer22 9y agoThis federation is only an outside appearance, though. Spanish gvt has the tools (and is willing to, and already did many times) to bend the laws from any of its regions' local governments. And the cancelled laws were not all about independence. They were about protecting the people who can't pay for energy in winter or banning bullfights, among others.
- alvatar 9y agoThat is incorrect. It might be your impression, but Spain is actually one of the most decentralized countries in the world. Catalonia has something around 5% of their state workers depending on the central government.
- setzer22 9y agoTo me, it doesn't matter. If the Catalan government doesn't have freedom to create their own laws, and all the money goes through the main government, it matters very little who do those 95% people work for.
- alvatar 9y agoThey do have plenty of freedom, own embassies, own top-level domain, lots of local laws, complete control over education (that is basically the foundations of the strategy of independentist movements during at least 20 years). It is basically the money what drives all this, you are spot on. I wonder what is your reference for regional freedom exactly? I think the next step really is total independence, which is what part of the society wants there. I'm gonna clarify that I actually want the independence of Catalonia, because I think that's the only possible resolution, but I just disagree with that. It's a fact that Spanish autonomies have a lot of freedem in how to apply even the centrally decided laws.
- hummel 9y agoSpanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but it is illegal to vote for independence from Spain. The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. 3) Despite being illegal, the Catalan people mobilized to express their opinion on 1-O. This was a popular expression, but not a democratic mandate since the votes were not supported by any international body and were not conducted in a public or transparent manner. Only 38% of Cataluá citizens voted, the remaining 62% did not participate in this vote. 4) Catalonia is a very strong autonomous region, with many economic links with Europe and the rest of Spain. Catalonia wants to receive more money and contribute less to the whole of Spain, which has led to certain tensions and a very unsympathetic attitude. Spanish politicians are particularly incompetent and corrupt, as are Catalan politicians who are accused of various flagrant corruption processes. 5) Other regions of Spain, such as Pamplona or Euskadi, have more arguments for independence, but they chose coexistence within the democratic framework. The government usually negotiates 6) The independentistas have voted secretly, they have not stood up to those who vote for them. The declaration of independence is temporary and ineffective. It will not provoke any conversation or dialogue, by the points expressed above. 7) Spain will apply Article 155, which will replace all the political, administrative and social structures of Catalonia's autonomy. Catalan politicians face criminal charges and high treason and will be tried by them. Independence fighters will argue for love, equality, brotherhood and happiness, while trying to shield themselves from the European Union and universal values. The world cannot understand their will, as they have been executed outside the democratic framework. On the contrary. 8) The republic has been proclaimed to conceal acts of corruption and incompetence on both sides. the solution is to dissolve the parliament and call elections. But democratic elections, not using the tools of any banana republic.
- spankalee 9y agoWhat does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.
- kgwgk 9y agoMostly they have declared independence from reality.
- mpermar 9y agoPeople that are raising the red flag of a civil war aren't that far away from reality, but that would not be a civil war in Spain, but a civil war in Catalonia. Catalonian independent politicians representing only a minority of the people voting have gone way far on their responsibilities and have caused huge damage to the Catalonian economy with hundreds of mid-large sized companies leaving their jurisdiction to other regions. It is only needed now that one of these huge companies closes (e.g. Seat) their factories to cause huge riots within the region. Man, so messed up, so many interests. These idiots are playing with the lives of many people and they do not give a dime about it...
- mvitorino 9y agoWhat does this even mean: "declared independence"? Have they ordered borders to be closed? Bank accounts to be frozen until new currency is introduced? Have people started throwing their Spanish passports and their euros into the trash? It just sounds like a lot like pure political manoeuvre without any kind of practical consequence.
- Allower 9y agoI think its pretty clear - they no longer recognize the Spanish governments authority..
- jannes 9y agoI think for them it's only about having their own constitution and sovereignty. Another one of their goals might be to stop using the Spanish language, which a big part of the population has done already. They are perfectly fine with open borders, being a part of the European Union, using the Euro as currency, and even with keeping their Spanish passports (i.e. double nationality).
- mvitorino 9y agoI'm sure they would, but once they are independent, they can't legally use the Euro. Would they even continue to be Spanish citizens and be able to travel freely in the Schengen area? A new state takes years to join the EU (assuming the EU would accept). How about sovereign debt? All these (really important) issues that should be part of an extensive debate so that people could understand better what is expecting them on the other side. Also, I don't know any country that allows constitutional changes to be done via a simple majority in parliament (they had 3 votes above simple majority). The only reasonable exit at this point, I believe, is to have new elections.
- slaymaker1907 9y agoOf course they can continue to use the euro. They wouldn't have any control over it, but a country can use whatever currency their population will accept. IIRC there are a few small nations that don't really have their own currency and just use USD instead.
- garply 9y agoOut of curiosity, does anyone know how this has affected the economy and real estate market in Barcelona?
- setzer22 9y agoLooking for a flat in Barcelona right now and I can tell you prices haven't moved in the slightest. Maybe that will change now, though.
- stevoski 9y agoSo far it is life as usual here. Since October 1st, 2017, more than 800 companies have moved their official address to outside of Catalunya. They tend to be larger firms. To be fair, a few have moved TO Catalunya during that same period. Tourism bookings are down 20% on this time last year. Tourism is a significant part of the Catalan economy. Real estate - too soo to tell. I think real estate prices probably trail events by some months.
- jayess 9y agoMaybe it's time to come visit. :)
- personlurking 9y agoI was in BCN a few days ago, and one year prior, as well. Everything seemed very normal, both in the touristic and non-touristic areas. The former was full of foreigners, just as it was a year ago. As for the latter area, I went to a large mall on the outskirts where seemingly only locals were, and it was also super full.
- pvaldes 9y agoAround 1600 companies had left the area since 1 octobre. If i'm not wrong recession index are defined as two consecutive trimesters of economical decline, so we'll need to wait until June 2018 to answer correctly how (and if) this was affected the economy.
- antaviana 9y agoIt's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies. By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future chances for a huge win would be a lot lower. On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for independence. By provoking a polarizing crisis, they hope to greatly improve their future chances for an absolute majority that helps legitimate their position. In short, both parties ruling on both sides believe that they benefit greatly from confrontation so trying to reach agreements is pretty much out of the question, marketing is all that matters.
- lllllll 9y ago> On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for independence Fair enough. How much % census would you consider enough? Catalan pro-independence had higher % than say for instance Brexit vote. And a good chunk of the % was lost to Spanish Police "raids", quite violently boycotting the peaceful vote.
- michelsonmorley 9y agoFor instance, the Catalunya Parliament has a requirement of 2/3 of the votes to changes its 'statut' (kind or regional constitution). But they will secede with a simple majority.
- antaviana 9y agoIn my opinion if the Catalan 2015 election had had more votes pro-independence (in particular for the "Junts pel Sí" party votes, but I can accept CUP votes as well although at the time I was not that sure), it would have been morally claimable. Or, if they had chosen to go for elections next December where votes unequivocally pro-independence parties where higher than votes for the rest of parties, in my opinion it would have been morally claimable. In other words, I'm a lot more comfortable with some clear means to count unequivocal Yes votes against unequivocal No votes. If a party has "Independence" in the election program is an unequivocal Yes. If a party does not have "Independence" in the election program is an unequivocal No. I voted in the referendum but I'm not comfortable with the huge "No show" of No votes on the 1-O referendum. To me, the results of the referendum are not conclusive for such a decision.
- Findeton 9y agoIt's not true, they haven't declared independence. This is a resolution proposal, which means it's not a law and it has no legal value (I mean, not even from the point of view of a pro-independence judge/lawyer). It's a proposal asking the Catalan government to declare independence. But it's fulfilling its purpose, which is to escalate things in a political sense while maintaining the status-quo in the legal realm: it's a provocation to the Spanish government, seeking an over-reaction from the Spanish government, with the aim to maintain the moral victory over Spain in the matter of independence.
- andrewla 9y agoMy understanding from these articles is that the referendum was that -- a resolution proposal. But the most recent vote (70 for, 10 against, 2 abstains, out of 135 representatives) is a direct declaration of independence. I don't speak Spanish and I can't find any primary sources on it, but this is what all the news sources that I have seen are saying. If you have more information or citations, I'd love to see them. Here are some sources saying it was a declaration of independence: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-government-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/27/spanish-governmen... https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-catalonia-both-spanish-and-catalan-parliaments-are-scheduled-to-convene/2017/10/27/09685d34-ba90-11e7-9b93-b97043e57a22_story.html?utm_term=.153dbe2aaa0c https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/a-day-of-fireworks-in-c... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41771294 Also, (sigh), the twitter-based declaration from the government of Catalan itself: https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/923908635520053248
- Findeton 9y agoIt's a declaration of independence, approved in a resolution proposal, which means it's a petition to the Catalan government, not a law or anything like that. Which means it hasn't changed the legal body at all. The Catalan government could also ignore the petition, as it's not a binding mandate, just a petition. My sources? I am Spanish and I have friends who are lawyers. EDIT: You mention the Catalan Gov's twitter. Well, of course, they will say whatever they want. Their aim is to provoke the Spanish government.
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- mhkhung 9y ago"Laws change depending on who's making them. Cardassians one day, Federation the next – but justice is justice." – Odo, 2369 ("A Man Alone") How much representation does Catalan has in the central government and high court? As Catalan has been operating independently, surely with its own police force and Catalan people in the army, can the central government force the Catalan to release power?
- alexandrerond 9y agoIt's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history". The love of the flag and the dishonest approach to history and current socio-economics of the region are strategies followed by every other wannabe-patriot in the world. The illogical approach to their goals and the complete divorce from reality will likely hurt any further attempts for autonomy or proper independence in the long term. On the Spanish side, the winners of this conflict are ruling right wing and all the until now minoritary extreme-right movements. Thanks to Catalonia, Spanish nationalism of the worst kind can resurface and perpetuate itself in power. It is not casual that Spanish rulers have been completely deaf to the long standing demands of a large part of the Catalonian population. The only way the Spanish nationalists win is by having the Catalonians take the most confrontational of the paths: declaration of independence. The only way the Catalonian nationalists win, is by having the Spaniard ones repress and provide a moral ground which supports their otherwise futile aspirations: break the law. Whoever the winner of this fight is, it will be a sad day for Europe, because nationalism and national borders will have prevailed and this goes against everything we need to build a stronger and better EU. The tragedy here is that, in the end, everyone loses. Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists. The majority is just watching this sad show, hoping it's over soon, so they can go back to their lives which, by the way, are exactly or worse than before.
- syrgian 9y agoWell, while the Catalan politicians will indeed enjoy power and fame if they win, they face a very unpromising future if they fail, such as prison and asset seizure. I doubt it is a rational, cost-efficient choice to support the independence. On the other hand, the Spanish/pro-union politicians are untouchable and the risks they take, much lower.
- alexandrerond 9y ago
- __BrianDGLS__ 9y agoHere is a nice podcast on the history of the matter: http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/catalonia-tim-rees/ http://www.historyhitpodcast.com/catalonia-tim-rees/ It's worth listening to to get a solid unbiased opinion on what is going on. In the media and forums like this opinions are often very biased.
- baxtr 9y agoI still don’t understand, which problem independence it’s going to solve for Catalonian people
- mcjiggerlog 9y agoNot having independence?
- 627467 9y agoLet's see how long this very post-modern independence declaration stays (mostly) peaceful. If non-violence is maintained, even in the context of the adversarial positions (unionists VS non-unionists) we may have a situation of overlapping sovereignties in same (or mostly same) territory. I disliked the populist and the un-democratic tone set by both sides on this matter since the referendum, but if this works out peacefully it may set a precedent for future group sovereignty movements. Overall, I think this is another nail in the still open coffin of westphalian-nation-states.
- diego_moita 9y agoCanadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism. Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda. A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic dependence, immigration and cultural change within Quebec. Canada conceded a lot of rights to Quebec and increased the use of French within the English speaking part of the country. The immigrants that arrived in Quebec didn't have the memory of past grievances. The Quebecois culture changed becoming more cosmopolitan and less Catholic (we call it "The Quiet Revolution"). After these changes, separatism is today a political liability in Quebec. Their separatist party only succeeds when they disguise their separatism.
- gboudrias 9y agoHi, Québécois here. > very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture It's rare to see this acknowledged outside of Quebec, so, thanks. > increased the use of French within the English speaking part of the country It's important to note for the comparison that this has been eroded extremely quickly. Supreme court judges don't have to speak French, and the Supreme Court ruled (6-3) two years ago that provinces are not obliged to translate laws into French. The lesson here is don't take things for granted that aren't in the constitution. (I don't know how much language is an issue for Catalonia but I can only assume it's a part of it.) > The Quebecois culture changed becoming more cosmopolitan and less Catholic (we call it "The Quiet Revolution"). I don't think you meant to misdirect here, but the Quiet Revolution happened in the 60s, and is therefore not a consequence of the modern sovereigntist movements which lead up to the first referendum in 1980. > After these changes, separatism is today a political liability in Quebec. Their separatist party only succeeds when they disguise their separatism. It is still an issue, in the sense that some people will vote for the party most "likely" to hold a referendum. In practice, we all know the status quo is too profitable for any powerful party to attempt real change. It is also important to note that Quebec still very much feels like a different nation, to me at least, and we often diverge strongly on political issues related to culture. See this map from 2011: https://imgur.com/gallery/w3uoK9W https://imgur.com/gallery/w3uoK9W As long as this "two solitudes" phenomenon persists, the separatist movement will continue to exist. It is doubtful to me that there are any concessions on the part of Canada that could bridge this gap, but I'm certain that Spain is different, in that it could effectively have killed the whole affair with simple financial negotiations. In hindsight, the lack of openness to compromise was quite obviously a shortsighted decision.
- MistahKoala 9y ago'Declares independence' or 'votes to declare independence'? The article offers two conflicting explanations of what happened. Does anybody know?
- pfortuny 9y agoNobody knows because they have never expressed their intention clearly (the most clear statement was the president of the local government saying "I declare the independence but suspend it for the moment"). So there it goes.
- MistahKoala 9y agoWell, quite - ambiguity all the way, so far. That should be reflected in the coverage, though. It wouldn't be the first time major news organisations have declared Catalonian independence.
- alva 9y agoWhen can we start blaming Putin?
- mixmastamyk 9y agoAny government that states, “voting is illegal” should be abolished IMO.
- gooseus 9y agoI don't have a lot to contribute to this relatively serious topic and development in world politics. What I can contribute, though, is that if you want a fun perspective on the history surrounding the creation of Spain, then I recommend picking up Europa Universalis IV next time it's on Steam sale and starting a campaign as either Castile or Aragon. You can create Spain after you conquer Granada and if you enter into a royal marriage with your other half. Game isn't 100% historically accurate, but it's got enough that you may spend as much time reading wikipedia on various regions, events, people as you do playing the actual game.
- fasteo 9y agoThis was just a rhetoric declaration as they knew that the government would trigger the 155 article moments after this declaration. In practical terms, it means nothing. At least nothing for Catalonia as a region. The Catalonian government, however, will face rebellion charges on Monday. They can get up to 30 years in prison. Why did they do this ? No idea. I hope someday we can get to know the intrahistory of all this.
- gonvaled 9y agoBecause they feel they have a mandate? Or said differently, what would you do? You campaigned for it, organized a referendum, won it and now you do not follow through? What would your voters say?
- fasteo 9y ago>>> Because they feel they have a mandate? This is basically what they say, but this only appeal the people's emotions, making them appear as altruist servants of the Catalonian people. Sorry, I am too old to believe in fairytales. No offense.
- gonvaled 9y agoDon"t follow you. Are you are too old to believe in the fairy tale of honestly implementing your campaign promises, so you prefer the proven method of lying to the ellectorate? What honest politicians you old realists aspire to: those in the respectable business of doing whatever they want to, completely disregarding any promises made? I bet you also welcome corruption since, you know, how would anyone believe in, or even aspire to, the "fairy tale" of uncorruptible polititians! You are certainly a sensible realist!
- fasteo 9y ago>>> I bet you also welcome corruption Don't be a jerk. You seem to be a clever person. This is not what I meant. And you know it. My position in quite simple. I do not believe in politician's altruism. They are all going to prison and I do no think they are doing it for the Calalonian people. That's all. Time will tell.
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- microcolonel 9y agoIf the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it?
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- albertredneck 9y agoSpain is different. Spanish regions control big chunks of the public budget and Spanish parties rule everything. It was a matter of time that the population of the richest region and its own cultural stuff went nuts because of their rulers. Spain is broken, has suicided itself with this stupid regime.
- robrenaud 9y agoYeah, as a native North American English speaker, I will say that the courts are definitely part of what I understand government to be, and it would be very confusing to think of the government as only consisting of the legislature.
- tathougies 9y agoYou mean as an American (or I guess Mexican) English speaker. All parliamentary systems (including Canada) do not have an independent judiciary or executive. The Westminster system is founded on parliamentary sovereignty -- that is parliament can basically do as it pleases.
- alvatar 9y agoI want to make a very clear claim here, as a Spaniard who lived in Menorca (one of the so called "Paixos Catalans", what the expansionist independentists call "their territories"). I used to speak Catalan (or rather, their local dialect). I was raised there, and I had a lot experiences that well, I think it's not the point of this. What I want to say is: many, if not most, Spaniards (non-catalans) do actually support the idea of holding a referendum, me included. The problem is that it's constintuationally illegal, and we should have changed the Constitution for that. And we should have. However, is not that clear who should be allowed to vote there. The land of the Catalans belongs in theory to all the Spaniards, in the same way that the rest of the lands of Spain belong to the Catalans. Who is Catalan is also hard to define, since we all have Spanish passport. If I live there for 5 years, am I Catalan? Well, considering that a big majority of catalans do actually have family from other parts of Spain, is hard to argue there is any kind of pure genetic lineage. In theory, we should have allowed all Spaniards vote first on holding a referendum or not. And then also ask "the Catalans" under a clear definition of _who_ is Catalan and has the exclusive right to vote on the right to rule that land. Perhaps also we should have voted on different regions, since there are parts that don't want to be independent, or perhaps just want to be independent of Catalonia altogether (such is the case of Vall d'Aran). Many people seems to have a very easy time blaming Spain of being an authoritarian country, without understanding the depth and complexity of the problem, or that what a government does doesn't represent what all the people want. They were not voted in to do this, they were voted because the other alternatives failed to deliver in many ways in previous mandates. It was a reactionary voting. There are many people in Spain claiming for referendums. And also many people in Spain that see the independence of Catalonia the only way to keep advancing as a country where other less favoured regions could also prosper. Honestly, I wish people from other countries would double-check facts and go deeper in understanding the situation. While I'm very ashamed of what the police did in the votings, there is a longer story behind all this that has been sadly summarized by videos and pictures of that violent day. That was a terrible mistake from a government I don't feel identified with. I'm both ashamed of Spain and of Catalonia. I whish we knew how to live together. We are both going to do worse now. We are a fractured society. Both sides. Both sides lied, both sides manipulated. Spain is a country of many cultures and languages. We could be an example of the world. But we are not. No Catalonia is not the only region with historical differences. Andalusia was the cultural center of Europe in the 10th century. Euskadi is an industrial powerhorse. Galicia has celtic roots. Canary Islands is a beautiful mix of Latin American culture, Africa and south Spain. And so it goes for many other regions. As a Spaniard, I believe the best course of action is to split the country (sorry, I still don't buy that Spain conquered Catalonia, that just never happened, so yes, split a 500-years old country is the accurate definition). ‘I am firmly convinced that Spain is the strongest country of the world. Century after century trying to destroy herself and still no success’ - Otto von Bismark Well, actually maybe is time to try to start all over again. But please, check all historical facts and try to read both sides of the story. Don't buy that the Spaniards "are retrograde, old-fashined, stubborn, imperialistic, etc...", and the Catalans represent all good that happen in Spain, because that's unfair and untrue.
- memracom 9y agoThe problem is that this independence movement is not really an independence movement. In the modern world, no political entity can truly be independent. All are dependent on their neighbors. True independence became extinct when people stopped living subsistence agricultural lives. So the Catalan issue is more about how the EU is structured and whether nation states are the appropriate level of division for the different territories in the EU. Even outside the EU, nation states like Ukraine cannot be independent because they have too much dependency on Russia, the USA, China, Turkey and so on. Sovereignty is another question, but confusing it with independence is wrong.
- stevefan1999 9y agoregarding .cat domain TLD, will they be reclaimed?
- descala 9y agoYou can not just ignore the right of 2M people to self-determination, and that is exactly what Spain has been doing for many years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu... The "Yes" side won, with 2,044,038 (92.01%) voting for independence and 177,547 (7.99%) voting against, on a turnout of 43.03% Calls for dialogue and negotiation, which lasted until the very last minute, failed.
- jknightco 9y agoYou also can't just ignore the Constitutional rights of the 3M Catalans who didn't vote yes and move forward unilaterally with a declaration of Independence. The Constitution holds the entire government accountable—there is no "dialog" to be had outside of changing it. The Catalan Parliament didn't even have the votes to change their own Statutes of Autonomy!
- cmroanirgo 9y agoThere is a book, "Homage to Catalonia" by George Orwell. (Yes, the same one who wrote "1984" which is all about Big Brother). He writes of his times as a soldier in the Spanish Civil War. I recommend reading it as there seems to be quite a lot of similarities between what happened then and what is happening now. Much of the fighting takes place in Barcelona.