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Most of the bay area employees are divided into 3 categories from anecdotal experience: young rockstars that are willing to live in relative squalor for a chan

• chis 9y ago
  Is it worthwhile to work there for a few years as a 20-year old though? I'm thinking it's a unique experience even if monetarily it's a poor choice.
  • vasilipupkin 9y ago
    You should go where the opportunities are. Optimizing for things like cheap rent, etc. is silly. You should aim to make so much ( eventually ) that rent doesn't matter any more
    • cat199 9y ago
      > You should aim to make so much ( eventually ) that rent doesn't matter any more Unless this is an unrealistic aim, in which case you are throwing your future away on a false hope..
      • vasilipupkin 9y ago
        well, aren't we being a little melodramatic? if you get a decent job in the bay area and your rent is high, you aren't really "throwing your future away" even if your career doesn't take off.
    • AlexandrB 9y ago
      > Optimizing for things like cheap rent, etc. is silly. You should aim to make so much ( eventually ) that rent doesn't matter any more This flies in the face of basic economic theory. If everyone in the bay area "made so much that rent doesn't matter anymore" the rent would go up until it did matter. The reason it doesn't is that quantity demanded goes down as rent goes up precisely because people are price conscious.
      • vasilipupkin 9y ago
        what does this have to do with everyone in the bay area? this is hacker news and I am responding to a specific comment by a person that, in the context of the conversation, is in tech industry or is planning to be. "everyone in the bay area" includes your local barista. downvoters: "If everyone in the bay area "made so much that rent doesn't matter anymore" the rent would go up until it did matter" is a red herring. we are not discussing everyone in the bay area. We are discussing specific types of people that are trying to maximize their career outcomes in the tech industry.
  • ng12 9y ago
    Yes. I met more talented developers in a few years working in the Bay than I did in twice that time living in the Northeast. All other problems aside Silicon Valley still does have the highest concentration of top talent. My advice: live there for a few years as cheaply as possible, work at 2+ companies, learn everything you can, then get out of dodge.
  • maxxxxx 9y ago
    It's definitely good for your resume.
    • humanrebar 9y ago
      There are lots of places good for your resume that aren't a drain on your bank account.
      • robbrit 9y ago
        For someone who is young, can move around, and doesn't burn loads of money on silly expenses, the Bay Area is actually amazing for the bank account. My experience here has been that the gap between income and expenses is greater than gross salary in many cities. Work a few years, invest the difference, and then ship out when you want to settle down is a very reasonable strategy.
  • ghaff 9y ago
    Maybe? A lot of people convince themselves that pretty much every place else is a backwater not worthy of their skills. There are certainly more options in the Bay Area for a certain subset of tech. And maybe certain big companies that offer Unique opportunities (although for a smaller subset of hires than used to be the case). But there are plenty of good opportunities in other areas as well.
  • TaylorAlexander 9y ago
    Yes, I think it’s a great place to be for a while at least. I’m 33, have been here over ten years (grew up nearby) and am still chugging along. The mindless commute through unending traffic to get to the same office day in and day out is slowly driving me a little mad (not really... I think) but I’m beginning to question if I want to stay here long term. Still, I’ve had amazing experiences here and this is a place of magic in many ways. It’s defi worth experiencing in my opinion.
    • j_s 9y ago
      If you think ideas for commute audio might help at least in the short term, check out the most recent edition of what has become a bi-monthly discussion: Ask HN: What audio resources can improve my technical skills during my commute? | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15170121 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15170121 (Sep 2017, 93 comments)
    • johnbrodie 9y ago
      Cali is the only US state where lane splitting is legal. How many people with a long commute are riding motorcycles to work every day? The weather is great for it. Were I in the bay area, I'd be riding in every day. If not for the love of motorcycles, just to shorten my commute times.
      • reducesuffering 9y ago
        I work in Silicon Valley but live in Fremont in the East Bay. Traffic is awful, would take an hour by car, and no one at my work lives that far. But on a motorcycle? A fun 30 min ride in the midst of traffic.
      • linkregister 9y ago
        I found my stress level keeping me from riding. It’s exhausting avoiding being killed by drivers who can’t see me or intentionally run me out of my lane.
  • shawnee_ 9y ago
    Not anymore it isn't; this goes 100X for women. Women being paid less means they are forced to live in the crappier parts of towns: the squalor, the commute and the danger are significantly more. When that movie "the Social Network" came out is about when I noticed it changed. It became literally overrun with sleazy easy-money landlords, big corporate entities buying up the apartments, jacking the rents, etc. There are thousands of better cities than any one in SF bay area. Technology works anywhere, you can work anywhere. My quality of life improved 1000 percent when I left California. [edit] I'm not quite sure why it's so hard for readers to fathom that women being paid significantly less than their male peers would be a key factor affecting what is "affordable" to them, and thus their ability to live safely in the Bay area. The question I was responding to was: "Is it worth it?" and my advice is that it is not. It is especially not worth it for women. Why would it be worth putting yourself in danger where all you can afford is the worst apartment in the worst neighborhood, 70-125 minutes away (each direction) from your workplace? The golden era of opportunity in Silicon Valley has passed. The real estate factor is now baked too deeply into every facet of life there. And as long as the AirBnb model ensures that only the landlords thrive, the problem will always be bigger than the solution.
    • obstacle1 9y ago
      >this goes 100X for women. Using obviously ridiculous hyperbole like this is going to do the opposite of helping to solve your pet problem, FYI. Consider other strategies for advocacy.
      • shawnee_ 9y ago
        What makes you think it's hyperbole? It's not hyperbole; it was my experience, as a female attempting to make a living while working in technology, living there.
        • obstacle1 9y ago
          It's _one hundred_ times more difficult for women? No. That's hyperbole. It's more difficult for women? Reasonable, if debatable. But not _one hundred times_ in any possible case. That's just an exaggeration aimed at derailing an argument into the realm of emotion.
  • abritinthebay 9y ago
    Depends where, for who, and doing what. Working in a big city at a variety of companies and roles is always a good thing for experience and personal growth.
  • zerr 9y ago
    If you're after investors' money then probably yes, as they say, but for the engineer, there is nothing special.
    • wils1245 9y ago
      Not sure what you mean. There’s a whole lot of investor money flowing into engineers’ pockets here in the bay.
  • acchow 9y ago
    Absolutely. Yes. Do this.
• robbrit 9y ago
  A fourth category: people who have lived here for a long time, and were able to buy property back before it became unaffordable. These are typically the managers or senior employees. It makes me wonder that as the young rockstars and H1B recipients age, where will they go? They certainly can't afford to buy a house. I imagine as time goes on, companies in the Bay Area will be awash with young junior talent but will struggle to attract more senior folks.
  • toomuchtodo 9y ago
    > It makes me wonder that as the young rockstars and H1B recipients age, where will they go? They certainly can't afford to buy a house. I imagine as time goes on, companies in the Bay Area will be awash with young junior talent but will struggle to attract more senior folks. They leave for more affordable cities or head back home to be close to family when they decide to have kids. EDIT: May I offer up Tampa as a yet-to-get-expensive locale? I'm making SFBA wages in security, but bought a 4 bed 2.5 bath house with a pool on a quarter acre lot twenty minutes from my company's office for ~$200k (and I have fiber to the home for $45/month). The highest rated beach in the country is in Clearwater, ~30-45 minutes away, we have an amazing craft beer scene, lots of parks, beach/water recreation, very nice international airport (30 min away, $5/day (!!!) for parking), etc.
    • pm90 9y ago
      This is exactly true. I've seen many senior engineers and H1B visa holders relocate from the Bay to Seattle/Austin/Colorado etc. I think its great that the major Tech companies are fanning out. Perhaps the other centers will become more or less like SV and ease the pressure somewhat. Or at least induce the landed SF residents to consider reasonable adjustments to accommodate the influx of people into the city.
    • robbrit 9y ago
      Exactly. That is what I am doing after 3 years in the Bay Area.
      • deleted 9y ago
• jorblumesea 9y ago
  There's also a fair amount of people "grandfathered" into the region. Bought back in the 90s/early 2000s in closer in cities or neighborhoods. They have it pretty good, but at the expense of everyone else.
  • polskibus 9y ago
    Could you explain that bit more? How is that at the expense of everyone else, did they achieve their wealth illegally?
    • kbuchanan 9y ago
      He's not making a political statement—he's simply saying that a "grandfathered" household enjoys a salary and house value that rose sharply with the area's demand. Newcomers, however, have no such head start. As long as Bay Area real estate remains restricted, newcomers will be permanently disadvantaged (in an absolute sense). It's kind of a classic small-town value: get in while it's good, and shut the door behind you.
    • PopsiclePete 9y ago
      They actively like to block high-density housing projects. The NIMBY movement is strong. Having affordable housing would make their homes' values plummet and they don't want it. So, yes, to the detriment of everyone else. Which is really America in a nut-shell - "I got mine, fuck you".
    • abritinthebay 9y ago
      Read up on Prop 13 a bit. That’ll explain it.
      • oldsklgdfth 9y ago
        Related to prop 13 that is also how golf courses in cali metro areas are able to exist, despite taking up huge swaths of land and having very few members. There was a revisionist history episode on it: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/11-a-good-walk-spoiled http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/11-a-good-walk-spoile...
• cat199 9y ago
  > young rockstars young wannabe "rockstars", and perhaps a few actual ones.
• twobyfour 9y ago
  What about the low-paid hourly employees who make food, mop floors, and stand behind cash registers?
  • cat199 9y ago
    let them eat organic gluten free vegan cake? hmm
  • tzahola 9y ago
    Don’t worry, enterpreneurs are working hard replacing them with robots!
  • TuringNYC 9y ago
    I sympathize with those in such positions who have family roots and dont wish to move out of the region. But the "good" think about such jobs are geographic freedom.
    • twobyfour 9y ago
      And in the meantime, where are SF businesses going to find people to DO those jobs, if everyone's priced out of the region?
      • TuringNYC 9y ago
        Possible moves: - Increase salary to livable wage for janitorial staff, etc - Lobby for housing reform, progressive zoning policies
  • duderific 9y ago
    What they do is have multiple family members per household. It's not that unusual to see two or more families living in what would normally be a single family dwelling. Across the street from my old house in San Mateo (Silicon Valley mid-peninsula), there were what appeared to be a husband and wife, the wife's sister, a cousin, three or four children, the sister or cousin's live in boyfriend, and a renter, all in a two bedroom, one bath house that was about 1200 square feet. Oh and a couple of dogs as well. It was notable because there were six or seven cars for the household, and there were only a couple of parking spots in front of each house, so they ended up parking their cars in front of our house often, forcing us to park down the street somewhere. If you have four or five adult wage earners at low wages you can make it work. Otherwise you have to live very far away from your job.
• whack 9y ago
  In which of the above 3 categories would you put the Google/Facebook/Apple employees making 200-300k+ per year? I can't speak towards family living, but as a single person willing to live with roommates, you can find pretty nice places in the heart of Silicon Valley for ~$1000/month. Now add in compensation-packages well over 6 figures, brand-name companies for your resume, networking locally with other great engineers/techies, and the ability to switch companies every 1-2 years if you're unhappy. I wouldn't ever recommend a 30-year-old giving up all that to work in Kansas.
  • akhilcacharya 9y ago
    I'd consider living with non-family roommates to be in the "relative squalor" bucket if you're making $200k-300k a year.
    • dopeboy 9y ago
      That's pretty harsh. I don't make that kind of money but if I did, I'd still be open to living with roommates in a house. Some of us like living with other people and saving money while at it.
    • TuringNYC 9y ago
      I was making that much on Wall St back in the day and had roommates, because it was fun and we could share costs for a place we barely used since we were working. As a married person with children now, having roommates is absolutely out of the question. I know people suggest it as a "solution" to the housing crisis but in no way is it acceptable in my mind to have strangers living in the house with my wife and children.
    • morgante 9y ago
      That's a ridiculous statement to make. I live with a roommate and love it even though I could afford to live by myself. We have a really nice central apartment and get more social interaction. People making different choices than you aren't "living in squalor." You're going to have a hard time convincing me that a luxury apartment with separate bedrooms is squalor.
    • 9y ago
• api 9y ago
  I did the math once and realized that the cost of a modest apartment large enough for my family in SF/SV would exceed my total cost of living in Southern California. SoCal is not exactly cheap. That's completely and utterly insane.
• CalChris 9y ago
  Vested elites. Yeah, I know a decently successful ex-VC. Lives in Menlo-Atherton. Dunno why. I suppose it doesn’t matter. Good schools. Used to it. Prop 13.
• hpcjoe 9y ago
  This. Though I'd probably add a 4th category, those being none of the preceding 3 groups. That 4th group would include me, and quite a number of others. In my previous job hunt, I had numerous recruiters try to explain to me that the Bay Area was the only place to be. I helped them work the math to show the CoL differences between where I was and where they wanted me. This didn't phase them. Then I discussed this in terms of required compensation deltas to make this meaningful, using the rubric of not slipping significantly backwards in quality of life measures (house size, commute, food prices, taxes, etc.). This got their attention. A few times when I replied here on similar articles noting that the Bay Area was simply pricing itself out of competition for talent and companies, the responses varied between sympathy to ... well ... (paraphrasing) you are a fool to expect higher comp to live and work in this utopia. Well, no. There are many reasons why the Bay Area is in the state it is in. It isn't quite catastrophic ... yet ... but IMO it is moving there fast. Burn rates for newcos are massive compared to other regions. General costs are high relative to other regions. Economic theory suggests that this will eventually fix itself, the invisible hand of the market and all. For me, I took a position that enabled remote work, and can hop a plane to HQ when needed (1/month or so). This is far more cost effective for the company and I than it would be to move me. Just my $0.02. There are those whom might leap to the defense of the region, but its worth asking if the critique is founded or not. I believe it is.
  • alexasmyths 9y ago
    The thing is - normal economics don't apply to a game of hype, brand and relationships. The top funds, the press, the special talent, the specialized talent, the customers, the early adopters, yada, yada. When everything is in 'one cluster' - there is a very good reason to be located there, and it almost always makes economic sense. Very few companies grow gangbusters outside the clusters.
• harbie 9y ago
  I feel like 'living in squalor' is an exaggeration, or at least a separate category from what a lot of young engineers are doing in the Bay Area. Maybe if they were living in SF, sure, they could be living in dinghy studios. I know plenty of new grads in the South Bay/Peninsula living in apartments or rented houses that would be considered decent or nice in the rest of the country with plenty of money to spare. Mostly at bigger, established companies though. Anecdotal, I know, but it definitely seems like there's a portion of new grads living comfortably in the bay area. Living somewhere and owning property are very different though.
  • 1ceaham 9y ago
    As a recent grad myself, this is the only comment that rings true for me. Anecdotal for sure, but most people that I went to grad school with and stayed in the bay are doing fine, even at mid-size companies. You can find someplace to live (especially with a significant other) that enables a moderate amount of saving / investing with a little frugality; however, there's a lot of luck and privilege that plays into being a successful young engineer in the bay, and in no way do I want to downplay the seriousness of these issues for other groups. Lots of people stay here despite the costs because of the positive externalities that come with living in the bay. There are many alternatives to a highway commute (bike in the city, Caltrain, work from home) that many new grads are able to take advantage of. There's easy access to nature, culture, and for a lot of people, an extended network of family and friends that probably wouldn't be so welcoming in other places that don't have the same strains on housing. I expect that many will move away for opportunities elsewhere before ultimately returning, but that seems to be a desire for exploration rather than dissatisfaction with quality of life. Certainly, few of the people I know are itching to leave the city for even low-density suburban living, and that's a preference that just can't be squared with many of the commenters here that rave about living on their 3 acres of land for $200k in the middle of nowhere while working remotely. There are a lot of problems in the bay (and even more in the city) that I hope we can address, but making it out to be unlivable for young engineers (again, a very privileged class) is ridiculous. Are there better places to raise kids? Yes. Are there cheaper places to live? Yes. Are there other urban areas that provide some of the same benefits? Yes. Do I want to live anywhere else? Not right now.
• salqadri 9y ago
  Another category I'd add are those employees who choose to work in the bay area so that on the side they can be part of the startup scene to find co-founders or investors as they plan on pursuing their next big idea.
• ac29 9y ago
  From actual data, most of the Bay Area employees don't work in Tech: http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/file/indproj/sjos$_highlights.pdf http://www.labormarketinfo.edd.ca.gov/file/indproj/sjos$_hig... Those types of jobs (think Retail, Government, Construction. Manufacturing, Education -- all major employers) are probably much more impacted on average than tech.
• justinzollars 9y ago
  I want to add to this list: One of the most ineffective, corrupt and unresponsive Governments in the country. Its like a failed state.
• beatpanda 9y ago
  > Rising levels of increasingly aggressive homeless Citation needed. The most recent data on this disagrees with you.
  • beatpanda 9y ago
    Cool, loving the downvotes here from people who didn't bother to read the results of the SF homeless count this year, which showed that the number of people on the street decreased over the last two years. Great community we've got here.
  • solaxun 9y ago
    Ask all you want for citations, I live here and see it every day. It is definitely getting worse, I have coworkers who have been punched walking to the BART for no reason.
    • beatpanda 9y ago
      It literally is not. I live and work in and around SF, I have worked directly with the homeless, and I pay attention when new data comes out on this subject. You are 100% wrong about this.
    • beatpanda 9y ago
      "Something bad happened to my friend" =/= "Things are getting worse". I've been jumped walking down the street in SF, and also violent crime has been steadily decreasing since I moved here, just as it is now.
  • linkregister 9y ago
    I’m inclined to believe you. Can you share a source? Homeless populations move around the city in response to police, etc., so the total number can be completely opaque to the average city resident.
    • beatpanda 9y ago
      http://hsh.sfgov.org/research-reports/san-francisco-homeless-point-in-time-count-reports/ http://hsh.sfgov.org/research-reports/san-francisco-homeless...
• aswanson 9y ago
  Why didnt a similar issue arise with housing during the first SV gold rush (Intel, Fairchild, etc)?
  • epistasis 9y ago
    They were building housing back then. Lots of suburban housing. Now that the flat land has been built, current owners don't want anything to change and obstruct any new development from roads to housing to public transit.
• jtmcmc 9y ago
  This is talking about all jobs not tech jobs - there are any number of people that live in the bay area that don't work in tech. This is much more about them than tech workers...
• acchow 9y ago
  Anecdotally, I'm a software engineer in SF and know many other software engineers in SF that don't fall in any of those 3 categories. We are mostly from other countries, some of us on H1b, and are very happy here.
• nradov 9y ago
  Very, very few young developers are actually "rockstars" in any meaningful sense. Most of them aren't actually very productive.