24 ms·

Chevy Bolt: the First Practical, Mass-Market Electric Vehicle

278 points by helloworld 9y ago

rm999 9y ago
Full article without paywall: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-practical-mass-market-electric-vehicle-2017-10-22 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-p...
- tbodt 9y ago
  You can bypass the WSJ paywall by tweeting a link to the article and clicking on the link from Twitter. They check the Referer header.
  - dayaz36 9y ago
    How about we all stop linking to wsj
- dang 9y ago
  Changed to that from https://www.wsj.com/articles/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-practical-mass-market-electric-vehicle-1508433885 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-pract.... Thanks!
ukulele 9y ago
At $35k+ with 240 miles of range, it's starting to get close but realistically not quite there yet for "mass market" adoption. I hope I'm wrong but this will likely be a minor seller. Also re: the $7500 federal tax rebate, most people can't take full advantage because they don't owe that much and it doesn't carry over past the first year. Still a good program but not a magic wand solution.
- r00fus 9y ago
  It's good if you lease for 36mo. That 7500 is taken right out of the negotiated amount.
- usaphp 9y ago
  > $7500 federal tax rebate, most people can't take full advantage because they don't owe that much I am pretty sure most of those who can afford to purchase a 35k+ car are making at least 40k / year and owe that much in federal taxes, unless I am not calculating something right
  - phonon 9y ago
    A family making $40k/y will have a negligible/negative federal and state effective income tax rate. A single person might be somewhere around 10% or less. Maybe you are thinking of FICA?
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    What kind of tax rate do you think people are paying that they owe $7500 in federal taxes making $40,000/yr?
  - arrrg 9y ago
    What I never really thought is that that‘s still a pretty dumb was to subsidize any kind of purchase. It massivly advantages the rich(er). Why do it that way?
    - hedora 9y ago
      The US has a highly regressive tax system, at least for middle class earners and up. We do everything that way.
      - rhino369 9y ago
        No it doesn't. The fact that a 7k deduction doesn't help middle class people proves we don't have a regressive system. The US middle class is relatively lightly taxed.
      - cobookman 9y ago
        I think this helps the middle / poor class. Rich people lease expensive EV that would normally not sell. After 3 years rich person gets a new car and EV sells for peanuts. Just look at the cost of a used Nissan Leaf right now
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  You don't even have to itemize (it isn't a deduction), so I think most people would be able to take full advantage of it. I would bet anyone who is in the market for a $35k+ car (or even 28.5k+) is going to be at a point where they can take full advantage of the rebate.
  - dasil003 9y ago
    It's a credit yes, but it's not a refundable credit. Which means you need to owe at least that amount of tax. So for 2016 that means a single person has to earn at least $46,900 to get the full benefit (assuming no other non-refundable credits). The median US personal income for 2016 was about $31,100, so I think it's fair to say the majority of Americans can not take full advantage, although I agree with your last statement.
    - MaysonL 9y ago
      That's 46,900 after exemptions and deductions. 6k standard deduction & at least one 4K exemption.
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      That number is deceptive: a married joint-filing income would be around $60k, so they would qualify if they only bought one of these.
      - bzbarsky 9y ago
        For married-filing-jointly you need a gross income of at least $76,800 in 2017 to owe $7500 in federal taxes.
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        What table are you using?
        dasil003 9y ago
- JackC 9y ago
  In Massachusetts, if you do benefit from the tax rebate, the final price is $22k. For a lease it's $115 per month, with no money down after rebate: http://massenergywebservices.com/drivegreen/table-all.php#bolt http://massenergywebservices.com/drivegreen/table-all.php#bo... I've confirmed other prices through this program and believe they're accurate.
- SkyPuncher 9y ago
  I agree. We were in the market for a new car this past summer and I was really intrigued by the Bolt but had to pass on it. It's still just a bit too expensive and a bit too short on range to make it a primary vehicle. Not to mention, it's not a particularly "cool" looking car. I'm excited to see where things are in 3 to 5 years when we're in the cycle for another vehicle. If a moderately equipped package can land in the $30k range and travel 350+ on a single charge, it will be very intriguing.
- jrs95 9y ago
  Agreed. Even if I were going to spend that much on a car, it wouldn't be this car at that price point. I got a lightly used Fiesta ST for around $15k, and I'm very happy with it and probably wouldn't even want the Bolt for the same price (even if it's more practical)
  - SubiculumCode 9y ago
    Is it is manual transmission? I heard the auto is junk, and avoided.
    - jrs95 9y ago
      Yeah, they actually only make the ST in manual.
- bane 9y ago
  I love the idea of Electric cars and even own Tesla stock, but I think they're still a ways off from me seriously considering buying one. Why? I drive a large Hybrid sedan. I get a bit above 600 miles on a tank of gas without thinking about it. That's a trip from NYC to Toronto with about 100 miles of driving around range left before having to think about finding a gas station...or for our European friends, Paris to Munich with 160 km to spend looking for parking. If I try for range I can easily add another 50-75 miles to that just by being mindful of my driving. My previous car got 300-350 miles to a tank and during a normal commuting period I had to fill it up every couple of weeks. I now go a month or so between fill ups. I've gotten so used to this kind of range that I often forget to even check how much fuel I have left since I only ever have to fill it up 12-15 times a year. My "low fuel" light comes on when I have 75 miles of range left. During city driving, the gas engine is usually off and I spend lots of time driving around on pure electric (the drive-train favors the electric motor when possible and has no gearing transmission at all). Total fill-up time, <10 minutes. With the freakishly low U.S. gas prices and since the car takes 87 octane fuel, it's about $40 to fill up or about $500 - $600 per year or about $2,500 - $3,000 in fuel costs over a 5 year lifetime of the vehicle. The vehicle cost me $27k loaded (plus interest blah blah) out the door, I paid cash. TCO over 5 years for this vehicle is expected to run somewhere between $33-$35k and that includes regular maintenance, tires, oil changes (but minus insurance and taxes) or somewhere in the neighborhood of $.75/mile. I'll probably keep the car longer than that so the cost/mile gets better. The newer model of my car estimates out to around 700-750 miles per tank, so TCO figures should be adjusted accordingly. The cost to charge a Bolt depends on local electrical rates, but the average cost in the U.S. is $.12/kWh. The cost to charge a Bolt for a year with my profile turns out to be $400-500/yr or about $2500 over 5 years. The Bolt is a smaller car, 0-60 is similar, takes 9 hours to charge off a wall socket every 238 miles (which will be realistically less) or if I have thousands of dollars in fast charge infrastructure in place about 30 minutes to get 200 miles. I know several electric car owners who got Leafs on the cheap, and those are pretty appealing to be honest, and they use them as commuter cars. Range isn't a problem for them typically because they just charge every night, I'm sure the same is true for Bolt owners (and Tesla owners). But I'm lazy, and probably would forget to charge it half the time, and right now I'm going 4-5 weeks between "charges" (fill-ups). In a pinch, I have no place to charge my car at work at all, or most of the other places I currently frequent. The nearest fast charger to me is a 20 minute drive, one way without traffic. If I had a Tesla, the nearest Super Charger is 30 minutes away without traffic. So when I think about "going electric", I have to compare things and on most metrics, I have a better car than the Bolt, and on many metrics I care about a better car than a Tesla Model 3. You don't even have to wait in line or pre-order to get my car. Just go to a local dealer and drive off the lot with one. We're not there yet. Closer, but still maybe 7-10 years out. Modern Hybrids are the state of the art at the moment and mass consumers won't be interested in regressing.
- MBCook 9y ago
  > At $35k+ with 240 miles of range, it's starting to get close but realistically not quite there yet for "mass market" adoption. Really? Why is that? For me and I’m sure tons of other people 250 miles is more than enough. I think it’s extremely rare I’d go 100+ in a day. If this was from Honda or Toyota I’d probably jump at it if I needed a new car. I’ve never had any experience with GM, and their reputation isn’t exactly stellar.
  - s0rce 9y ago
    For me that's like the main use my car. I'll bike to work and often run small errands on my bike. I'll use the car to go to the mountains since that would be too far to bike (and there is a large dull valley in the way).
    - pilom 9y ago
      Totally agree. I work from home and walk or bike most of the time. Most of my car's miles are put on doing >200 mile trips. Plug-in hybrids for me until the charging infrastructure vastly expands.
- hwillis 9y ago
  The average person doesn't buy new cars. The average new car is $33,500[1], so the bolt is right there at the average price. I guess the question is how well it holds its utility as the price drops. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/05/04/new-car-transaction-price-3-kbb-kelley-blue-book/26690191/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/05/04/new-car...
mach5 9y ago
we own one, can agree that its great! it's my wife's daily driver, and with my own trips in it, i can't even imagine getting another ICE when the time comes to get a new car for myself. the L mode itself is almost a new driving experience, controlling the car fully through just one pedal and trying to eke out every last drop of kinetic energy back into the battery, and making it a challenge to never use the brakes. it's nearly as fun as a manual transmission. i mentioned this before in another thread, but the most hilarious part of ownership is the maintenance schedule. it's as follows: * every 12,500mi: rotate tires * every 22,500mi: change cabin air filter * every 5 years: replace brake fluid * every 150,000mi: replace battery cooling fluid
- samcheng 9y ago
  Be careful, Tesla drivers discovered that never using the brake, particularly in areas that use salt on the roads, results in expensive corrosion. Automotive brakes haven't been designed with one-pedal driving in mind... https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/24/8500-new-tesla-model-s-brakes-canada/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/24/8500-new-tesla-model-s-... Recommendation: consciously use the brakes in a firm deceleration once a week.
  - PerryCox 9y ago
    That wouldn't be a problem for me, the way most people drive and cut in front of me I would easily have one firm deceleration a week.
  - mach5 9y ago
    to say i don't use the brakes is a little bit of a misnomer, as i use them at stoplights in order to activate the rear brake lights for other drivers. two more bits of trivia: the brake lights activate during regen for more than .2g of deceleration, and the brake rotor metal is formulated not to rust.
    - nixgeek 9y ago
      I'm pretty sure taking your foot entirely off the gas pedal when in "L" mode actually activates the brake lights.
brightball 9y ago
You can get a 1 year old Volt for about 15-17k. Best deal out there IMO.
- Tempest1981 9y ago
  Used Nissan Leafs are pretty cheap too. ($8k-$12k, with 25-40k miles)
  - brightball 9y ago
    Leaf is very short range isn’t it?
    - scottwernervt 9y ago
      Yes and range decreases drastically with battery age and cold temp compared to other EVs. However, as mentioned, they are a steal if you have a short commute.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        I strongly considered one as a second car. You won't be driving to Disney World with it (unless you live in Orlando...) but as a supplemental car for stuff around town when my wife and I want to be in different places at the same time, it would be just fine. We ultimately decided that we weren't in a big hurry and we'd rather go all-out and get a Tesla Model 3, but for someone wanting to spend less, it could be a great choice.
- taneq 9y ago
  That's a pretty big drop, any idea why it goes down so much?
  - CaliforniaKarl 9y ago
    Used car prices have been dropping in general. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15076441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15076441 from two months ago.
whalesalad 9y ago
Note that this is the Bolt not the Volt. Even as a petrol head who owns a V8 and a Subaru STI, I really like what GM has done with this vehicle. Really really great review from Doug DeMuro here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY Doug has a great style - really digs deep into all the quirks and oddities of the cars he reviews.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  Calling their new full-electric the Bolt after they already had the Volt was the dumbest product naming marketing fowlup since the Wii-U.
  - MrRadar 9y ago
    It's even worse in Europe. There the Volt is called the Ampera and the Bolt is called the Ampera-E... even though it's a completely unrelated design.
    - mtgx 9y ago
      Wow...at least they sold Ampera-E to Renault. Hopefully Renault won't make the same mistake, considering they din't name their ZOE "Clio-E" (which of course would've been pretty dumb).
      - Tade0 9y ago
        I believe Opel was sold to PSA, not Renault-Nissan. This does not bode well for the Ampera-e, because PSA has a penchant for crises.
        Theodores 9y ago
        Since the Ampera was a badge engineered made in the USA car my guess is that Peugeot are not buying it. Furthermore their CEO has no grand ambitions for electric vehicles, so the Ampera is gone already. PSA took on Chrysler many decades ago and after a while the factory that was making Chrysler cars was making the Peugeot 309 which was a roaring trade success in the UK and other markets. Eventually the factory closed after the 309 had had its run. So you can expect the same, a new family crossover will come out in Peugeot branding from the Astra factory, this will sell for a few years, have a facelift and sell on for a few more years. Then they will close the factory. It is inevitable. Of course Peugeot will sell EVs, however, for small cars it is not hard to buy a few motors and batteries from Bosch and to stick them in a car. So they will be joining the market when all the suppliers have the off the shelf parts all worked out for them.
rdl 9y ago
I wish they'd sell a Cadillac version (or at least a decent trim level) -- the seats are horrible. I'd happily pay $5k more for $2k of better seats. (Aftermarket upgrades are a pain.)
- WorldMaker 9y ago
  The ELR, Cadillac's sort of coupe-sister to the Volt took about two years after the Gen 1 Volt to show up in the market. Maybe a similar timeline plays out for a Bolt sister in the Caillac line? Though with GM talking about going mostly electric by 2023, maybe it will be a shorter wait than that.
hedora 9y ago
We just managed to sell another flagship GM vehicle, and the software was so bad, it was nearly a deal-breaker. (Most years of this model had software bugs that were so bad, they could literally kill you — for example, the exhaust system could overheat, and burn the car down). Also, basic electro-mechanical things, like seat belts and the FM radio started to die after 3-4 years. This is with light use in CA. Even when new, the new model handled terribly compared to the old GM (same model, engine size, etc). Its compauter regularly locked the rear wheels when turning and going uphill, and the steering geometry caused it to squeal the tires at low speeds in parking lots. Neither the old GM, nor the replacement had these problems, and all three are essentially identical body styles. Tl;dr: Congrats to GM, but I’m waiting for literally anyone else to ship a competitive EV.
- koiz 9y ago
  Its what I keep telling people, GM has been during PR on this car but the software is still far from complete.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    another case of post shipping software debugging philosophy ?
    - WorldMaker 9y ago
      It's easier to accuse GM of the opposite problem: Most of their software still has to be "properly" waterfalled and QAed because they don't update software on shipping vehicles. GM's software is often terrible because the software feature list was finished two or three years before the model comes to market. What bugs makes it past QA gets shipped and likely will never get fixed in the lifetime of that vehicle. As the software gets bigger and more important to vehicle operation, you can see how it may be increasingly tough for QA to keep up.
- coolspot 9y ago
  Elon, you are using wrong account.
erik_seaberg 9y ago
Hours per week charging is better than hours per day, but still only practical for people who can run heavy wiring to a private garage. I keep wishing gas station battery swaps were happening.
- zanny 9y ago
  The industry cannot even standardize a charging port between Tesla and everyone else (which really is more on Tesla for using a proprietary port nobody else is using and then trying to act like they are the victims by offering royalty free access to the patents... after the fact). It will be a very, very long time before standardized batteries are a thing, if they ever will be. As soon as true self driving cars are a legal thing nobody will even own a car anymore, it won't make any sense.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    This is less of an issue than you might think: Tesla ships adapters for the most common non-Tesla charging ports.
- reidacdc 9y ago
  This is my issue also, although I suppose I represent a small fraction of the market -- I live in an urban apartment building with street parking, I won't be able to charge an EV at home until the infrastructure gets much, much better. This means I'd have to factor charging into all my trips, which messes up the user experience pretty badly.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    Almost all of the US has parking minimums for apartment complexes. My apartment complex installed a charger after I pointed out how many existing residents had EVs.
    - reidacdc 9y ago
      That helps with the marketplace in general, of course, but it doesn't do me any good, my building was built in the 1920s. No garage at all.
CaliforniaKarl 9y ago
The question I have to ask: Has anyone here gotten an EV and successfully gotten a charger setup going in an apartment garage? For where I live, I'd say we have 100-150 parking spaces, all underground. There are two spaces that have chargers, which are first-come-first-served, I don't count them. So, the idea would be to get my own charger. I already have a safe place to put it: There is a wide-but-not-deep storage unit at the back of my parking space, with concrete behind it. I could have a charger properly mounted to the concrete wall, and I don't use the storage space, so I could keep it open when charging. The annoyance then is having to get a little electrical conduit run to the nearest place where a meter can be installed. That's likely going to be all the way across the length of the garage, and then up a level. As for work, there are charge points on Stanford's campus, but they are not free. Assuming I take a charging slot for the entire workday, I'd be paying around $3,400 per year, for charging fees and a parking permit.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Yes, I live in Palo Alto (near you) and I convinced my apartment complex to install an EV charger: 2 chargers, and conduit for 4 more. I'm mystified why you aren't counting the 2 chargers that your apartment complex does provide. For all I know we live at the same place. I'm happy, you're unhappy. Given the large battery in a Bolt, do you really need to charge every day?!
  - ianai 9y ago
    “Happy you’re unhappy”. 2 charging spaces that are first come first serve are probably impossible to use.
    - greglindahl 9y ago
      In my case, the 2 spaces are not impossible to use, I've used them. (The complex has 280 bedrooms.) Also, when they become more contended, the capacity can be tripled. (They're waiting until it becomes needed.) Sounds like you didn't even try. Edit: I don't think I've ever gotten 4 downvotes on HN for anything before, but it's fair to say that this is hardly the most arguable thing I've said!
rdl 9y ago
I wonder if it makes more sense to lease vs. buy now (since self driving, electric, etc. technology is progressing quickly) -- it seems like lease discount/money factor isn't going down as quickly as it should with these cars. (I've never bought a new car, and never leased as a car, but probably will get a new EV as my next -- an S, 3, or Bolt.) Owning is great if you keep the car for 8-12 years like I've done, but I can't imagine any EV sold today being competitive in 5-10 years, even with software upgrades.
- tehwebguy 9y ago
  FYI leases on these just went from like $300+ / mo with a substantial down payment to sub $150 / mo with effective 0 down in California with incentives.
  - rdl 9y ago
    I don't think WA has anything that good, but for a Californian this is a no-brainer, especially with HOV lane access until at least 1 JAN 2019.
  - einarvollset 9y ago
    Link?
    - tehwebguy 9y ago
      https://leasehackr.com/blog/2017/10/16/bolt-ev-never-been-better-138-month-0-down https://leasehackr.com/blog/2017/10/16/bolt-ev-never-been-be... This site is rarely updated unless there is a significant deal but the forum is usually popping.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        Nobody here qualifies for the $2500 CVRP rebate.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
CalChris 9y ago
If you buy an EV, you should be happy with its range when you buy it. Like laptops and cellphones, that will degrade as all batteries do. But also like laptops and cellphones, when you replace that battery down the road, it is unlikely you'll get an upgrade. You'll get the same range. At least that was the case with my 2013 Leaf with its 85 mile range. I had it in mind that when it came for a new battery I'd get maybe a 10% upgrade. While the new batteries mechanically fit, they are somehow incompatible. FWIW, my 2013 is pretty good as Leafs go. Down one bar. But if the range is 150 miles or better, I don't think that matters as much. I think buying used EVs in the future will be a thing. Just not the 2013 Leaf. Other than that, I'm sold on EVs. I'd never buy a hybrid or gas car again.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I'm wary of comparing with laptops and cell phones, because a proper EV drivetrain will suffer much less degradation. Consumer electronics batteries are poorly cooled and prioritize daily capacity over long-term life, so they degrade much more quickly. I'm sure you know this, but I see a lot of people thinking their car battery will only last 2-3 years because that's how their cell phone is. For what it's worth, I appear to have an outlier, but my Tesla's battery has degraded well under 1% after 2.5 years and 40,000 miles.
  - redler 9y ago
    I thought I read, perhaps here, that Tesla over-provisions its batteries and uses software to optimize the battery "working set" to minimize perceptible range degradation.
    - yessql 9y ago
      Tesla actively cools its batteries and chose a long lasting battery chemistry. The Leaf, does not cool the battery, and the early Leaf model had a really bad chemistry.
      - cmrdporcupine 9y ago
dmead 9y ago
it's just not possible to own one of these on much of the east coast. i would have probably bought this summer but seeing how abysmal the recharging story is made me shy away.
- cmrdporcupine 9y ago
  I don't get it, if you have charging at home, what's the issue? For those rare trips where you go over 300km, just rent a cheap ICE vehicle.
bogomipz 9y ago
I am curious how does one go about disposing of an electronic vehicle like this when the time comes - whether from an accident or just EOL'd? Is that included in this price? Or does one need to factor that into the TCO of the vehicle? Given the batteries I'm guessing this requires special attention compared to a combustion engine car.
- hwillis 9y ago
  Well right now most Teslas go to salvage by a third party and some go to Tesla recycling. I assume some number just go to normal scrapyards. It's profitable to recycle the batteries so it isn't really a problem, and isn't likely to be a problem, and there are existing paths to recycle vehicles at EOL. For instance 90% of lead-acid batteries are recycled[1]. Again though batteries are most useful simply as salvage, and it'll probably be that way for a couple decades at least. The battery in a Tesla is so sturdily built (very thick aluminum sidewalls and bottom plate, then filled with potting epoxy) that they pretty easily survive crashes that total the car. Even "dead" batteries still have significant life and storage left, and are still more efficient, cost-effective and energy-dense than ni-cad or lead acid. Right now they're mostly just used by hobbyists but I will not be surprised to see companies popping up in a few years that buy old Teslas for $5,000-$10,000 and sell stationary storage at close to $125-150/kWh. They scrap out the rest of the car, install the battery modules into racks and sell them. At those prices it will take quite a while for this to be a viable business, but once it is it'll even compete with the used car market. Worst case Tesla batteries can be safely sent to a landfill (they contain a small amount of cobalt and nickel, but no other toxic elements), they should just be drained first. Recycling is done with a hammer mill normally, but car shredders are built to chew through two foot long cast iron blocks[2]. They would have zero trouble with a Tesla, and probably wouldn't mind if it was charged. [1] https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNttxaG1qA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNttxaG1qA
  - jseliger 9y ago
    This is a good answer, and I'll add that some projects are already active: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/business/gm-and-nissan-reusing-old-electric-car-batteries.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/business/gm-and-nissan-re... or https://thinkprogress.org/why-used-electric-car-batteries-could-be-crucial-to-a-clean-energy-future-6ab9a2308cdb https://thinkprogress.org/why-used-electric-car-batteries-co... .
dayaz36 9y ago
If you don't have a network of fast superchargers, then your EV is automatically useless for road trips. Tesla is the only company that has built out this network. No other EV should be taken seriously unless they've built out theirs.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  But I want another solely for driving around town. The city I live in is barely 15 kilometres (about 10 miles) across. Any of the currently available EVs would suit my needs. If I want to go out of town I'll take my turbo diesel camper.
  - lostboys67 9y ago
    So you get to feel all virtuous but don't mind blasting out Nox particulates which is a major health hazard
- pretendscholar 9y ago
  I'm sure they will accept your money all the same.
- davexunit 9y ago
  I did a 315 mile road trip in my Bolt over the summer. I stopped at a Dunkin Donuts with a DC Fast charger for a half hour, ate some mediocre baked goods, then finished my journey. The supercharger network is great, for sure, and that's part of what you get for the premium Tesla price, but road trips are totally possible in less expensive electric vehicles. I'm not a cross-country road trip type of person, so the Bolt's range and charging situation works for me.
chairmanwow 9y ago
As a sidebar, I really wish that Blendle would exit Beta so that I could buy these extremely interesting articles as a one-off micropayment. I don't intend to get a subscription with every top news organization (NY Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, WSJ, Economist etc), but I would be more than happy to pay $0.25-0.75 for an article like this. I want to pay for their content, but getting locked into a subscription when I don't want to read the majority of the content in any one of these publications is foolhardy. And unlike streaming platforms like Spotify, Netflix, HBO etc these news platforms don't provide nearly the same return on investment. I listen to Spotify 15-20hrs per week, I watch Netflix for at least 6hrs / week. High quality journalism is very valuable, but certainly these publications are aware that they aren't in the same weight-class as Netflix and Spotify in terms of value to customers individually. As an aggregate, I would easily spend $10 / month consuming "high quality technology and research news and opinion" pieces. Please, for the love of god, provide me with a sensical way to pay for your content.
- conical 9y ago
  Brendan Eich's Brave browser is working on solving this.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- akvadrako 9y ago
  Why does Blendle have to exit beta for this to happen? BTW, I consider $0.50 for an article to be ridiculous; that's probably 100x - 1000x how much they would make from an advertisement. But no problem, you can often find WSJ articles for free if you just google the title.
manoj_venkat92 9y ago
Currently the cost of this EV is about 37K dollars. That's very high even for US, right? We want more affordable ones and ones that look like glorified golf carts. Bolt looks like a good car but how much market it can get in India/Brazil is still questionable. People in India are interested in taking up EVs if the cost is reduced thanks to the unbreathable air in the major cities.
mtgx 9y ago
Can we please stop calling hybrid vehicles "electric cars"? This is also leading to ridiculous marketing tricks by carmakers where they only make the tiniest amount of changes to "technically" be able to call their cars an "electric car" while common sense-wise being as far away from an all-electric car as possible. This means minimal changes to their own cars while claiming they've "adopted the wave of the future." So everyone -- especially the media -- please stop calling hybrid cars electric vehicles. You're not doing the electric car future any favors.
- avar 9y ago
  You appear to be confusing the Chevy Volt (hybrid) with the Chevy Bolt (all-electric).
- johngalt 9y ago
  The bolt is an all electric car not a hybrid.
strin 9y ago
I own a chevy volt and it never felt as good as it should be. Initially it has a burning smell on gas mode. I took it to the dealership for maintenance and they said GM's official solution is to install a "carbon filter" to the venting. It has an integration with Apple CarPlay that works most of the time but has some small glitches. It all felt like... Nokia - you know the times when you buy those smartphones expecting them to be really intelligent but they turn out to be awefully hard to use... until iPhone came along.
- Aoyagi 9y ago
  >expecting them to be really intelligent but they turn out to be awefully hard to use I don't think the two attributes contradict.
- cmrdporcupine 9y ago
  I dunno, my Gen 2 Volt is the best vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned two Subarus, VW diesel Jetta, and driven a lot of other car in my 26 years of driving. I have almost no complaints about it, and it is the first domestic car I've owned. I sat in a Bolt while a friend drove it. It's a good car, too. I just need more cargo area. Also they're really hard to get here in Ontario.
Shivetya 9y ago
GM should be proud of the Bolt and the Volt as well; I own a Volt because it suits my usage needs much better than a pure EV. However GM is still in the stone ages when it comes to OnStar. You get a short trial and then you are faced with 14.95 and higher per MONTH fees to access their services. Not a problem you say, don't need their navigation in a day of smart phones and the only real value is calling the authorities when you crash. Yet the kicker is, the GM app which lets you lock/unlock, start/stop you car suddenly loses the ability to tell you your cars tire pressures and range remaining for both fuel and electric. Yep, GM gated that behind an OnStar subscription. Did not used to be, but they threw some switch recently which made the app near useless.
tomohawk 9y ago
Other than virtue signalling, what's the point of this car? I can get a Honda Fit for half the price. The Fit will have twice the range on a 5 minute fillup, instead of needing an all night charge. This means I can be way more casual. This thing seems more like a pet that I have to assiduously care for each and every day just to keep it going. And what's the range of this EV after 5 years of use? In the middle of the winter? It just doesn't seem very practical. With that Fit, I can hop in the car and drive out to the mountains and do some hiking any time I want. I don't have to specially charge it, timing my departure at peak charge.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  The Bolt is quieter, rides better, and has vastly better performance compared to the Fit. And the range quoted is pessimistic if it's anything like my Volt. It's not like it's being sold as the perfect car for everyone, but it's also not like the Bolt is a strictly worse Honda Fit for virtue signaling.
- imglorp 9y ago
  First of all, a use case might include someone who needs a local commuter and grocery getter. Not everyone has 2 hour commutes. They might also be pondering what happens if gas price ever reflects its true cost like it does in Europe. Second, it's more than a virtue signal, for some. It's a commitment to make a contribution where they can, whether anyone else knows or not.
- the_gastropod 9y ago
  95% of trips made in cars are under 30 miles [1]. Even fairly low-ranged electric cars are perfect here. When you need to go on a long trip, renting a gas-powered car is a much more economic, and environmentally-friendly, alternative. [1] http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071688_95-of-all-trips-could-be-made-in-electric-cars-says-study http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071688_95-of-all-trips-...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bluedino 9y ago
>> $43,905 Wow. For that much money, I'll take a Chevy pickup. Twice the interior room, a bed for storage, 4WD for the winters... They show the Bolt with a kayak on the roof, but with a truck I can take 2 kayaks (or pull a boat), still put 3 other people and a dog, a cooler, everyone's camping gear for the weekend, fishing poles, everything I'd actually need to go on kayaking trip for the weekend. Sure, I'll have to buy gasoline, but that's a measly $1,600 a year.
- gilrain 9y ago
  Some people value reduced impact on our ailing environment over immediate convenience.
  - sigzero 9y ago
    That doesn't matter if you CAN'T buy it in the first place.
  - EADGBE 9y ago
    How about both? I'm waiting for an electric truck. I'll have my cake and eat it, too. For some folks - a surprising amount in the United States - the practicality, livelihood, and sometimes necessity of a truck outshines its inefficiencies.
    - radiorental 9y ago
      Some folks, yes. This is true around the world. Unfortunately, for too many folks... pickups are a lifestyle vehicle. Like Jeeps that never go off road or bright yellow humvee's.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - otterley 9y ago
      I'm not convinced this is entirely true. The majority of people need a truck a few times a year at most. For them, rental is a practical option. The rest of the year, an ordinary sedan or hatchback will suit their needs just fine. If this were not so, people in other first-would countries would also buy trucks as their primary vehicles, and we know that's not the case. (It helps that fuel taxes elsewhere are more realistic -- i.e. higher -- in terms of being able to pay for the infrastructure and other externalities.) The reason people buy trucks in the U.S. is largely (a) cultural and (b) because they can afford them, both in terms of payments and fuel taxes.
davexunit 9y ago
I love my Bolt. I bought it in MA for $3000 off MSRP thanks to Mass Drive Green, got a $2500 rebate check from the state, and will get a $7500 federal tax credit. I was really nervous to pull the trigger and go full electric and buy a new car for the first time (always bought used) but 11,000 miles later I have no regrets.
- radiorental 9y ago
  Nice, I got my leaf through drive green for $16K after tax & fees. Nissan's 0% financing and free state-wide charging are nice bonuses if you need them. I've been putting 1K miles / month on it, which is my historical average. The charging at work seals the deal. For the few times I need to charge at home I think I've spent somewhere under $30 to travel 11K miles this year (o; Short range EVs are not for everyone but if it suits your commute, they're a no-brainer. And a hell of a lot of fun to drive (o;
CNJ7654 9y ago
Wow, that's actually really impressive for the price. If only it didn't look so silly. Seriously, every fully electric vehicle out right now, except for Teslas, look like total jokes imo. Just make an EV, and give it a full size sedan frame. I can guarantee EV sales would see a boost. Also, does anyone know how EVs in general handle New England tier winters? I know the Model 3 will eventually have an AWD model, but what about the battery? Hell, lead acids barely work long enough to run the starter when it's -5F out.

278 points by helloworld 9y ago

Full article without paywall: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-practical-mass-market-electric-vehicle-2017-10-22 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-p...

tbodt 9y ago
You can bypass the WSJ paywall by tweeting a link to the article and clicking on the link from Twitter. They check the Referer header.
- dayaz36 9y ago
  How about we all stop linking to wsj
dang 9y ago
Changed to that from https://www.wsj.com/articles/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-practical-mass-market-electric-vehicle-1508433885 https://www.wsj.com/articles/chevy-bolt-meet-the-first-pract.... Thanks!

ukulele 9y ago

At $35k+ with 240 miles of range, it's starting to get close but realistically not quite there yet for "mass market" adoption. I hope I'm wrong but this will likely be a minor seller. Also re: the $7500 federal tax rebate, most people can't take full advantage because they don't owe that much and it doesn't carry over past the first year. Still a good program but not a magic wand solution.

r00fus 9y ago
It's good if you lease for 36mo. That 7500 is taken right out of the negotiated amount.
usaphp 9y ago
> $7500 federal tax rebate, most people can't take full advantage because they don't owe that much I am pretty sure most of those who can afford to purchase a 35k+ car are making at least 40k / year and owe that much in federal taxes, unless I am not calculating something right
- phonon 9y ago
  A family making $40k/y will have a negligible/negative federal and state effective income tax rate. A single person might be somewhere around 10% or less. Maybe you are thinking of FICA?
- snuxoll 9y ago
  What kind of tax rate do you think people are paying that they owe $7500 in federal taxes making $40,000/yr?
- arrrg 9y ago
  What I never really thought is that that‘s still a pretty dumb was to subsidize any kind of purchase. It massivly advantages the rich(er). Why do it that way?
  - hedora 9y ago
    The US has a highly regressive tax system, at least for middle class earners and up. We do everything that way.
    - rhino369 9y ago
      No it doesn't. The fact that a 7k deduction doesn't help middle class people proves we don't have a regressive system. The US middle class is relatively lightly taxed.
    - cobookman 9y ago
      I think this helps the middle / poor class. Rich people lease expensive EV that would normally not sell. After 3 years rich person gets a new car and EV sells for peanuts. Just look at the cost of a used Nissan Leaf right now
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
You don't even have to itemize (it isn't a deduction), so I think most people would be able to take full advantage of it. I would bet anyone who is in the market for a $35k+ car (or even 28.5k+) is going to be at a point where they can take full advantage of the rebate.
- dasil003 9y ago
  It's a credit yes, but it's not a refundable credit. Which means you need to owe at least that amount of tax. So for 2016 that means a single person has to earn at least $46,900 to get the full benefit (assuming no other non-refundable credits). The median US personal income for 2016 was about $31,100, so I think it's fair to say the majority of Americans can not take full advantage, although I agree with your last statement.
  - MaysonL 9y ago
    That's 46,900 after exemptions and deductions. 6k standard deduction & at least one 4K exemption.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    That number is deceptive: a married joint-filing income would be around $60k, so they would qualify if they only bought one of these.
    - bzbarsky 9y ago
      For married-filing-jointly you need a gross income of at least $76,800 in 2017 to owe $7500 in federal taxes.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        What table are you using?
        dasil003 9y ago
JackC 9y ago
In Massachusetts, if you do benefit from the tax rebate, the final price is $22k. For a lease it's $115 per month, with no money down after rebate: http://massenergywebservices.com/drivegreen/table-all.php#bolt http://massenergywebservices.com/drivegreen/table-all.php#bo... I've confirmed other prices through this program and believe they're accurate.
SkyPuncher 9y ago
I agree. We were in the market for a new car this past summer and I was really intrigued by the Bolt but had to pass on it. It's still just a bit too expensive and a bit too short on range to make it a primary vehicle. Not to mention, it's not a particularly "cool" looking car. I'm excited to see where things are in 3 to 5 years when we're in the cycle for another vehicle. If a moderately equipped package can land in the $30k range and travel 350+ on a single charge, it will be very intriguing.
jrs95 9y ago
Agreed. Even if I were going to spend that much on a car, it wouldn't be this car at that price point. I got a lightly used Fiesta ST for around $15k, and I'm very happy with it and probably wouldn't even want the Bolt for the same price (even if it's more practical)
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  Is it is manual transmission? I heard the auto is junk, and avoided.
  - jrs95 9y ago
    Yeah, they actually only make the ST in manual.
bane 9y ago
I love the idea of Electric cars and even own Tesla stock, but I think they're still a ways off from me seriously considering buying one. Why? I drive a large Hybrid sedan. I get a bit above 600 miles on a tank of gas without thinking about it. That's a trip from NYC to Toronto with about 100 miles of driving around range left before having to think about finding a gas station...or for our European friends, Paris to Munich with 160 km to spend looking for parking. If I try for range I can easily add another 50-75 miles to that just by being mindful of my driving. My previous car got 300-350 miles to a tank and during a normal commuting period I had to fill it up every couple of weeks. I now go a month or so between fill ups. I've gotten so used to this kind of range that I often forget to even check how much fuel I have left since I only ever have to fill it up 12-15 times a year. My "low fuel" light comes on when I have 75 miles of range left. During city driving, the gas engine is usually off and I spend lots of time driving around on pure electric (the drive-train favors the electric motor when possible and has no gearing transmission at all). Total fill-up time, <10 minutes. With the freakishly low U.S. gas prices and since the car takes 87 octane fuel, it's about $40 to fill up or about $500 - $600 per year or about $2,500 - $3,000 in fuel costs over a 5 year lifetime of the vehicle. The vehicle cost me $27k loaded (plus interest blah blah) out the door, I paid cash. TCO over 5 years for this vehicle is expected to run somewhere between $33-$35k and that includes regular maintenance, tires, oil changes (but minus insurance and taxes) or somewhere in the neighborhood of $.75/mile. I'll probably keep the car longer than that so the cost/mile gets better. The newer model of my car estimates out to around 700-750 miles per tank, so TCO figures should be adjusted accordingly. The cost to charge a Bolt depends on local electrical rates, but the average cost in the U.S. is $.12/kWh. The cost to charge a Bolt for a year with my profile turns out to be $400-500/yr or about $2500 over 5 years. The Bolt is a smaller car, 0-60 is similar, takes 9 hours to charge off a wall socket every 238 miles (which will be realistically less) or if I have thousands of dollars in fast charge infrastructure in place about 30 minutes to get 200 miles. I know several electric car owners who got Leafs on the cheap, and those are pretty appealing to be honest, and they use them as commuter cars. Range isn't a problem for them typically because they just charge every night, I'm sure the same is true for Bolt owners (and Tesla owners). But I'm lazy, and probably would forget to charge it half the time, and right now I'm going 4-5 weeks between "charges" (fill-ups). In a pinch, I have no place to charge my car at work at all, or most of the other places I currently frequent. The nearest fast charger to me is a 20 minute drive, one way without traffic. If I had a Tesla, the nearest Super Charger is 30 minutes away without traffic. So when I think about "going electric", I have to compare things and on most metrics, I have a better car than the Bolt, and on many metrics I care about a better car than a Tesla Model 3. You don't even have to wait in line or pre-order to get my car. Just go to a local dealer and drive off the lot with one. We're not there yet. Closer, but still maybe 7-10 years out. Modern Hybrids are the state of the art at the moment and mass consumers won't be interested in regressing.
MBCook 9y ago
> At $35k+ with 240 miles of range, it's starting to get close but realistically not quite there yet for "mass market" adoption. Really? Why is that? For me and I’m sure tons of other people 250 miles is more than enough. I think it’s extremely rare I’d go 100+ in a day. If this was from Honda or Toyota I’d probably jump at it if I needed a new car. I’ve never had any experience with GM, and their reputation isn’t exactly stellar.
- s0rce 9y ago
  For me that's like the main use my car. I'll bike to work and often run small errands on my bike. I'll use the car to go to the mountains since that would be too far to bike (and there is a large dull valley in the way).
  - pilom 9y ago
    Totally agree. I work from home and walk or bike most of the time. Most of my car's miles are put on doing >200 mile trips. Plug-in hybrids for me until the charging infrastructure vastly expands.
hwillis 9y ago
The average person doesn't buy new cars. The average new car is $33,500[1], so the bolt is right there at the average price. I guess the question is how well it holds its utility as the price drops. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/05/04/new-car-transaction-price-3-kbb-kelley-blue-book/26690191/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/05/04/new-car...

mach5 9y ago

we own one, can agree that its great! it's my wife's daily driver, and with my own trips in it, i can't even imagine getting another ICE when the time comes to get a new car for myself. the L mode itself is almost a new driving experience, controlling the car fully through just one pedal and trying to eke out every last drop of kinetic energy back into the battery, and making it a challenge to never use the brakes. it's nearly as fun as a manual transmission. i mentioned this before in another thread, but the most hilarious part of ownership is the maintenance schedule. it's as follows: * every 12,500mi: rotate tires * every 22,500mi: change cabin air filter * every 5 years: replace brake fluid * every 150,000mi: replace battery cooling fluid

samcheng 9y ago
Be careful, Tesla drivers discovered that never using the brake, particularly in areas that use salt on the roads, results in expensive corrosion. Automotive brakes haven't been designed with one-pedal driving in mind... https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/24/8500-new-tesla-model-s-brakes-canada/ https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/24/8500-new-tesla-model-s-... Recommendation: consciously use the brakes in a firm deceleration once a week.
- PerryCox 9y ago
  That wouldn't be a problem for me, the way most people drive and cut in front of me I would easily have one firm deceleration a week.
- mach5 9y ago
  to say i don't use the brakes is a little bit of a misnomer, as i use them at stoplights in order to activate the rear brake lights for other drivers. two more bits of trivia: the brake lights activate during regen for more than .2g of deceleration, and the brake rotor metal is formulated not to rust.
  - nixgeek 9y ago
    I'm pretty sure taking your foot entirely off the gas pedal when in "L" mode actually activates the brake lights.

brightball 9y ago

You can get a 1 year old Volt for about 15-17k. Best deal out there IMO.

Tempest1981 9y ago
Used Nissan Leafs are pretty cheap too. ($8k-$12k, with 25-40k miles)
- brightball 9y ago
  Leaf is very short range isn’t it?
  - scottwernervt 9y ago
    Yes and range decreases drastically with battery age and cold temp compared to other EVs. However, as mentioned, they are a steal if you have a short commute.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      I strongly considered one as a second car. You won't be driving to Disney World with it (unless you live in Orlando...) but as a supplemental car for stuff around town when my wife and I want to be in different places at the same time, it would be just fine. We ultimately decided that we weren't in a big hurry and we'd rather go all-out and get a Tesla Model 3, but for someone wanting to spend less, it could be a great choice.
taneq 9y ago
That's a pretty big drop, any idea why it goes down so much?
- CaliforniaKarl 9y ago
  Used car prices have been dropping in general. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15076441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15076441 from two months ago.

whalesalad 9y ago

Note that this is the Bolt not the Volt. Even as a petrol head who owns a V8 and a Subaru STI, I really like what GM has done with this vehicle. Really really great review from Doug DeMuro here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2ogGZXmepY Doug has a great style - really digs deep into all the quirks and oddities of the cars he reviews.

Pxtl 9y ago
Calling their new full-electric the Bolt after they already had the Volt was the dumbest product naming marketing fowlup since the Wii-U.
- MrRadar 9y ago
  It's even worse in Europe. There the Volt is called the Ampera and the Bolt is called the Ampera-E... even though it's a completely unrelated design.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    Wow...at least they sold Ampera-E to Renault. Hopefully Renault won't make the same mistake, considering they din't name their ZOE "Clio-E" (which of course would've been pretty dumb).
    - Tade0 9y ago
      I believe Opel was sold to PSA, not Renault-Nissan. This does not bode well for the Ampera-e, because PSA has a penchant for crises.
      - Theodores 9y ago
        Since the Ampera was a badge engineered made in the USA car my guess is that Peugeot are not buying it. Furthermore their CEO has no grand ambitions for electric vehicles, so the Ampera is gone already. PSA took on Chrysler many decades ago and after a while the factory that was making Chrysler cars was making the Peugeot 309 which was a roaring trade success in the UK and other markets. Eventually the factory closed after the 309 had had its run. So you can expect the same, a new family crossover will come out in Peugeot branding from the Astra factory, this will sell for a few years, have a facelift and sell on for a few more years. Then they will close the factory. It is inevitable. Of course Peugeot will sell EVs, however, for small cars it is not hard to buy a few motors and batteries from Bosch and to stick them in a car. So they will be joining the market when all the suppliers have the off the shelf parts all worked out for them.

rdl 9y ago

I wish they'd sell a Cadillac version (or at least a decent trim level) -- the seats are horrible. I'd happily pay $5k more for $2k of better seats. (Aftermarket upgrades are a pain.)

WorldMaker 9y ago
The ELR, Cadillac's sort of coupe-sister to the Volt took about two years after the Gen 1 Volt to show up in the market. Maybe a similar timeline plays out for a Bolt sister in the Caillac line? Though with GM talking about going mostly electric by 2023, maybe it will be a shorter wait than that.

hedora 9y ago

We just managed to sell another flagship GM vehicle, and the software was so bad, it was nearly a deal-breaker. (Most years of this model had software bugs that were so bad, they could literally kill you — for example, the exhaust system could overheat, and burn the car down). Also, basic electro-mechanical things, like seat belts and the FM radio started to die after 3-4 years. This is with light use in CA. Even when new, the new model handled terribly compared to the old GM (same model, engine size, etc). Its compauter regularly locked the rear wheels when turning and going uphill, and the steering geometry caused it to squeal the tires at low speeds in parking lots. Neither the old GM, nor the replacement had these problems, and all three are essentially identical body styles. Tl;dr: Congrats to GM, but I’m waiting for literally anyone else to ship a competitive EV.

koiz 9y ago
Its what I keep telling people, GM has been during PR on this car but the software is still far from complete.
- agumonkey 9y ago
  another case of post shipping software debugging philosophy ?
  - WorldMaker 9y ago
    It's easier to accuse GM of the opposite problem: Most of their software still has to be "properly" waterfalled and QAed because they don't update software on shipping vehicles. GM's software is often terrible because the software feature list was finished two or three years before the model comes to market. What bugs makes it past QA gets shipped and likely will never get fixed in the lifetime of that vehicle. As the software gets bigger and more important to vehicle operation, you can see how it may be increasingly tough for QA to keep up.
coolspot 9y ago
Elon, you are using wrong account.

erik_seaberg 9y ago

Hours per week charging is better than hours per day, but still only practical for people who can run heavy wiring to a private garage. I keep wishing gas station battery swaps were happening.

zanny 9y ago
The industry cannot even standardize a charging port between Tesla and everyone else (which really is more on Tesla for using a proprietary port nobody else is using and then trying to act like they are the victims by offering royalty free access to the patents... after the fact). It will be a very, very long time before standardized batteries are a thing, if they ever will be. As soon as true self driving cars are a legal thing nobody will even own a car anymore, it won't make any sense.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  This is less of an issue than you might think: Tesla ships adapters for the most common non-Tesla charging ports.
reidacdc 9y ago
This is my issue also, although I suppose I represent a small fraction of the market -- I live in an urban apartment building with street parking, I won't be able to charge an EV at home until the infrastructure gets much, much better. This means I'd have to factor charging into all my trips, which messes up the user experience pretty badly.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Almost all of the US has parking minimums for apartment complexes. My apartment complex installed a charger after I pointed out how many existing residents had EVs.
  - reidacdc 9y ago
    That helps with the marketplace in general, of course, but it doesn't do me any good, my building was built in the 1920s. No garage at all.

CaliforniaKarl 9y ago

The question I have to ask: Has anyone here gotten an EV and successfully gotten a charger setup going in an apartment garage? For where I live, I'd say we have 100-150 parking spaces, all underground. There are two spaces that have chargers, which are first-come-first-served, I don't count them. So, the idea would be to get my own charger. I already have a safe place to put it: There is a wide-but-not-deep storage unit at the back of my parking space, with concrete behind it. I could have a charger properly mounted to the concrete wall, and I don't use the storage space, so I could keep it open when charging. The annoyance then is having to get a little electrical conduit run to the nearest place where a meter can be installed. That's likely going to be all the way across the length of the garage, and then up a level. As for work, there are charge points on Stanford's campus, but they are not free. Assuming I take a charging slot for the entire workday, I'd be paying around $3,400 per year, for charging fees and a parking permit.

greglindahl 9y ago
Yes, I live in Palo Alto (near you) and I convinced my apartment complex to install an EV charger: 2 chargers, and conduit for 4 more. I'm mystified why you aren't counting the 2 chargers that your apartment complex does provide. For all I know we live at the same place. I'm happy, you're unhappy. Given the large battery in a Bolt, do you really need to charge every day?!
- ianai 9y ago
  “Happy you’re unhappy”. 2 charging spaces that are first come first serve are probably impossible to use.
  - greglindahl 9y ago
    In my case, the 2 spaces are not impossible to use, I've used them. (The complex has 280 bedrooms.) Also, when they become more contended, the capacity can be tripled. (They're waiting until it becomes needed.) Sounds like you didn't even try. Edit: I don't think I've ever gotten 4 downvotes on HN for anything before, but it's fair to say that this is hardly the most arguable thing I've said!

rdl 9y ago

I wonder if it makes more sense to lease vs. buy now (since self driving, electric, etc. technology is progressing quickly) -- it seems like lease discount/money factor isn't going down as quickly as it should with these cars. (I've never bought a new car, and never leased as a car, but probably will get a new EV as my next -- an S, 3, or Bolt.) Owning is great if you keep the car for 8-12 years like I've done, but I can't imagine any EV sold today being competitive in 5-10 years, even with software upgrades.

tehwebguy 9y ago
FYI leases on these just went from like $300+ / mo with a substantial down payment to sub $150 / mo with effective 0 down in California with incentives.
- rdl 9y ago
  I don't think WA has anything that good, but for a Californian this is a no-brainer, especially with HOV lane access until at least 1 JAN 2019.
- einarvollset 9y ago
  Link?
  - tehwebguy 9y ago
    https://leasehackr.com/blog/2017/10/16/bolt-ev-never-been-better-138-month-0-down https://leasehackr.com/blog/2017/10/16/bolt-ev-never-been-be... This site is rarely updated unless there is a significant deal but the forum is usually popping.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      Nobody here qualifies for the $2500 CVRP rebate.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

CalChris 9y ago

If you buy an EV, you should be happy with its range when you buy it. Like laptops and cellphones, that will degrade as all batteries do. But also like laptops and cellphones, when you replace that battery down the road, it is unlikely you'll get an upgrade. You'll get the same range. At least that was the case with my 2013 Leaf with its 85 mile range. I had it in mind that when it came for a new battery I'd get maybe a 10% upgrade. While the new batteries mechanically fit, they are somehow incompatible. FWIW, my 2013 is pretty good as Leafs go. Down one bar. But if the range is 150 miles or better, I don't think that matters as much. I think buying used EVs in the future will be a thing. Just not the 2013 Leaf. Other than that, I'm sold on EVs. I'd never buy a hybrid or gas car again.

mikeash 9y ago
I'm wary of comparing with laptops and cell phones, because a proper EV drivetrain will suffer much less degradation. Consumer electronics batteries are poorly cooled and prioritize daily capacity over long-term life, so they degrade much more quickly. I'm sure you know this, but I see a lot of people thinking their car battery will only last 2-3 years because that's how their cell phone is. For what it's worth, I appear to have an outlier, but my Tesla's battery has degraded well under 1% after 2.5 years and 40,000 miles.
- redler 9y ago
  I thought I read, perhaps here, that Tesla over-provisions its batteries and uses software to optimize the battery "working set" to minimize perceptible range degradation.
  - yessql 9y ago
    Tesla actively cools its batteries and chose a long lasting battery chemistry. The Leaf, does not cool the battery, and the early Leaf model had a really bad chemistry.
    - cmrdporcupine 9y ago

dmead 9y ago

it's just not possible to own one of these on much of the east coast. i would have probably bought this summer but seeing how abysmal the recharging story is made me shy away.

cmrdporcupine 9y ago
I don't get it, if you have charging at home, what's the issue? For those rare trips where you go over 300km, just rent a cheap ICE vehicle.

bogomipz 9y ago

I am curious how does one go about disposing of an electronic vehicle like this when the time comes - whether from an accident or just EOL'd? Is that included in this price? Or does one need to factor that into the TCO of the vehicle? Given the batteries I'm guessing this requires special attention compared to a combustion engine car.

hwillis 9y ago
Well right now most Teslas go to salvage by a third party and some go to Tesla recycling. I assume some number just go to normal scrapyards. It's profitable to recycle the batteries so it isn't really a problem, and isn't likely to be a problem, and there are existing paths to recycle vehicles at EOL. For instance 90% of lead-acid batteries are recycled[1]. Again though batteries are most useful simply as salvage, and it'll probably be that way for a couple decades at least. The battery in a Tesla is so sturdily built (very thick aluminum sidewalls and bottom plate, then filled with potting epoxy) that they pretty easily survive crashes that total the car. Even "dead" batteries still have significant life and storage left, and are still more efficient, cost-effective and energy-dense than ni-cad or lead acid. Right now they're mostly just used by hobbyists but I will not be surprised to see companies popping up in a few years that buy old Teslas for $5,000-$10,000 and sell stationary storage at close to $125-150/kWh. They scrap out the rest of the car, install the battery modules into racks and sell them. At those prices it will take quite a while for this to be a viable business, but once it is it'll even compete with the used car market. Worst case Tesla batteries can be safely sent to a landfill (they contain a small amount of cobalt and nickel, but no other toxic elements), they should just be drained first. Recycling is done with a hammer mill normally, but car shredders are built to chew through two foot long cast iron blocks[2]. They would have zero trouble with a Tesla, and probably wouldn't mind if it was charged. [1] https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycling-program https://www.tesla.com/blog/teslas-closed-loop-battery-recycl... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNttxaG1qA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQNttxaG1qA
- jseliger 9y ago
  This is a good answer, and I'll add that some projects are already active: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/business/gm-and-nissan-reusing-old-electric-car-batteries.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/business/gm-and-nissan-re... or https://thinkprogress.org/why-used-electric-car-batteries-could-be-crucial-to-a-clean-energy-future-6ab9a2308cdb https://thinkprogress.org/why-used-electric-car-batteries-co... .

dayaz36 9y ago

If you don't have a network of fast superchargers, then your EV is automatically useless for road trips. Tesla is the only company that has built out this network. No other EV should be taken seriously unless they've built out theirs.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
But I want another solely for driving around town. The city I live in is barely 15 kilometres (about 10 miles) across. Any of the currently available EVs would suit my needs. If I want to go out of town I'll take my turbo diesel camper.
- lostboys67 9y ago
  So you get to feel all virtuous but don't mind blasting out Nox particulates which is a major health hazard
pretendscholar 9y ago
I'm sure they will accept your money all the same.
davexunit 9y ago
I did a 315 mile road trip in my Bolt over the summer. I stopped at a Dunkin Donuts with a DC Fast charger for a half hour, ate some mediocre baked goods, then finished my journey. The supercharger network is great, for sure, and that's part of what you get for the premium Tesla price, but road trips are totally possible in less expensive electric vehicles. I'm not a cross-country road trip type of person, so the Bolt's range and charging situation works for me.

chairmanwow 9y ago

As a sidebar, I really wish that Blendle would exit Beta so that I could buy these extremely interesting articles as a one-off micropayment. I don't intend to get a subscription with every top news organization (NY Times, New Yorker, The Atlantic, WSJ, Economist etc), but I would be more than happy to pay $0.25-0.75 for an article like this. I want to pay for their content, but getting locked into a subscription when I don't want to read the majority of the content in any one of these publications is foolhardy. And unlike streaming platforms like Spotify, Netflix, HBO etc these news platforms don't provide nearly the same return on investment. I listen to Spotify 15-20hrs per week, I watch Netflix for at least 6hrs / week. High quality journalism is very valuable, but certainly these publications are aware that they aren't in the same weight-class as Netflix and Spotify in terms of value to customers individually. As an aggregate, I would easily spend $10 / month consuming "high quality technology and research news and opinion" pieces. Please, for the love of god, provide me with a sensical way to pay for your content.

conical 9y ago
Brendan Eich's Brave browser is working on solving this.
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akvadrako 9y ago
Why does Blendle have to exit beta for this to happen? BTW, I consider $0.50 for an article to be ridiculous; that's probably 100x - 1000x how much they would make from an advertisement. But no problem, you can often find WSJ articles for free if you just google the title.

manoj_venkat92 9y ago

Currently the cost of this EV is about 37K dollars. That's very high even for US, right? We want more affordable ones and ones that look like glorified golf carts. Bolt looks like a good car but how much market it can get in India/Brazil is still questionable. People in India are interested in taking up EVs if the cost is reduced thanks to the unbreathable air in the major cities.

mtgx 9y ago

Can we please stop calling hybrid vehicles "electric cars"? This is also leading to ridiculous marketing tricks by carmakers where they only make the tiniest amount of changes to "technically" be able to call their cars an "electric car" while common sense-wise being as far away from an all-electric car as possible. This means minimal changes to their own cars while claiming they've "adopted the wave of the future." So everyone -- especially the media -- please stop calling hybrid cars electric vehicles. You're not doing the electric car future any favors.

avar 9y ago
You appear to be confusing the Chevy Volt (hybrid) with the Chevy Bolt (all-electric).
johngalt 9y ago
The bolt is an all electric car not a hybrid.

strin 9y ago

I own a chevy volt and it never felt as good as it should be. Initially it has a burning smell on gas mode. I took it to the dealership for maintenance and they said GM's official solution is to install a "carbon filter" to the venting. It has an integration with Apple CarPlay that works most of the time but has some small glitches. It all felt like... Nokia - you know the times when you buy those smartphones expecting them to be really intelligent but they turn out to be awefully hard to use... until iPhone came along.

Aoyagi 9y ago
>expecting them to be really intelligent but they turn out to be awefully hard to use I don't think the two attributes contradict.
cmrdporcupine 9y ago
I dunno, my Gen 2 Volt is the best vehicle I've ever owned, and I've owned two Subarus, VW diesel Jetta, and driven a lot of other car in my 26 years of driving. I have almost no complaints about it, and it is the first domestic car I've owned. I sat in a Bolt while a friend drove it. It's a good car, too. I just need more cargo area. Also they're really hard to get here in Ontario.

Shivetya 9y ago

GM should be proud of the Bolt and the Volt as well; I own a Volt because it suits my usage needs much better than a pure EV. However GM is still in the stone ages when it comes to OnStar. You get a short trial and then you are faced with 14.95 and higher per MONTH fees to access their services. Not a problem you say, don't need their navigation in a day of smart phones and the only real value is calling the authorities when you crash. Yet the kicker is, the GM app which lets you lock/unlock, start/stop you car suddenly loses the ability to tell you your cars tire pressures and range remaining for both fuel and electric. Yep, GM gated that behind an OnStar subscription. Did not used to be, but they threw some switch recently which made the app near useless.

tomohawk 9y ago

Other than virtue signalling, what's the point of this car? I can get a Honda Fit for half the price. The Fit will have twice the range on a 5 minute fillup, instead of needing an all night charge. This means I can be way more casual. This thing seems more like a pet that I have to assiduously care for each and every day just to keep it going. And what's the range of this EV after 5 years of use? In the middle of the winter? It just doesn't seem very practical. With that Fit, I can hop in the car and drive out to the mountains and do some hiking any time I want. I don't have to specially charge it, timing my departure at peak charge.

BoorishBears 9y ago
The Bolt is quieter, rides better, and has vastly better performance compared to the Fit. And the range quoted is pessimistic if it's anything like my Volt. It's not like it's being sold as the perfect car for everyone, but it's also not like the Bolt is a strictly worse Honda Fit for virtue signaling.
imglorp 9y ago
First of all, a use case might include someone who needs a local commuter and grocery getter. Not everyone has 2 hour commutes. They might also be pondering what happens if gas price ever reflects its true cost like it does in Europe. Second, it's more than a virtue signal, for some. It's a commitment to make a contribution where they can, whether anyone else knows or not.
the_gastropod 9y ago
95% of trips made in cars are under 30 miles [1]. Even fairly low-ranged electric cars are perfect here. When you need to go on a long trip, renting a gas-powered car is a much more economic, and environmentally-friendly, alternative. [1] http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071688_95-of-all-trips-could-be-made-in-electric-cars-says-study http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1071688_95-of-all-trips-...

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bluedino 9y ago

>> $43,905 Wow. For that much money, I'll take a Chevy pickup. Twice the interior room, a bed for storage, 4WD for the winters... They show the Bolt with a kayak on the roof, but with a truck I can take 2 kayaks (or pull a boat), still put 3 other people and a dog, a cooler, everyone's camping gear for the weekend, fishing poles, everything I'd actually need to go on kayaking trip for the weekend. Sure, I'll have to buy gasoline, but that's a measly $1,600 a year.

gilrain 9y ago
Some people value reduced impact on our ailing environment over immediate convenience.
- sigzero 9y ago
  That doesn't matter if you CAN'T buy it in the first place.
- EADGBE 9y ago
  How about both? I'm waiting for an electric truck. I'll have my cake and eat it, too. For some folks - a surprising amount in the United States - the practicality, livelihood, and sometimes necessity of a truck outshines its inefficiencies.
  - radiorental 9y ago
    Some folks, yes. This is true around the world. Unfortunately, for too many folks... pickups are a lifestyle vehicle. Like Jeeps that never go off road or bright yellow humvee's.
    - deleted 9y ago
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  - otterley 9y ago
    I'm not convinced this is entirely true. The majority of people need a truck a few times a year at most. For them, rental is a practical option. The rest of the year, an ordinary sedan or hatchback will suit their needs just fine. If this were not so, people in other first-would countries would also buy trucks as their primary vehicles, and we know that's not the case. (It helps that fuel taxes elsewhere are more realistic -- i.e. higher -- in terms of being able to pay for the infrastructure and other externalities.) The reason people buy trucks in the U.S. is largely (a) cultural and (b) because they can afford them, both in terms of payments and fuel taxes.

davexunit 9y ago

I love my Bolt. I bought it in MA for $3000 off MSRP thanks to Mass Drive Green, got a $2500 rebate check from the state, and will get a $7500 federal tax credit. I was really nervous to pull the trigger and go full electric and buy a new car for the first time (always bought used) but 11,000 miles later I have no regrets.

radiorental 9y ago
Nice, I got my leaf through drive green for $16K after tax & fees. Nissan's 0% financing and free state-wide charging are nice bonuses if you need them. I've been putting 1K miles / month on it, which is my historical average. The charging at work seals the deal. For the few times I need to charge at home I think I've spent somewhere under $30 to travel 11K miles this year (o; Short range EVs are not for everyone but if it suits your commute, they're a no-brainer. And a hell of a lot of fun to drive (o;

CNJ7654 9y ago

Wow, that's actually really impressive for the price. If only it didn't look so silly. Seriously, every fully electric vehicle out right now, except for Teslas, look like total jokes imo. Just make an EV, and give it a full size sedan frame. I can guarantee EV sales would see a boost. Also, does anyone know how EVs in general handle New England tier winters? I know the Model 3 will eventually have an AWD model, but what about the battery? Hell, lead acids barely work long enough to run the starter when it's -5F out.