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The Depression Thing

• iamleppert 9y ago
  If we're supposed to be happy all the time, why are there so many sad songs? Seriously though it irritates me how people have been brainwashed to think depression is somehow abnormal. Here's something I've learned in life: Depression exists for a reason. There have been times in my life that I've been very depressed. Sometimes it was due to some event that happened but more often it was pretty random. During these periods, I've often been very creative or it has done something else that I didn't immediately recognize as a benefit at the time. Yes, it was painful. But life isn't supposed to be all roses. What I do think is wrong is taking (and getting hooked on) anti-depressants. A lot of my friends take them -- usually in response to a depression and now they've been taking them ever since. Unless you suffer from a very severe form of depression, I think anti-depressants do more harm over the long term than good, and many doctors of course want to keep their patients on them so it gives them an excuse to have an office visit. There's a lot of abuse, because there's a lot of money to be made trying to make people happy. In my experience, anti-depressants do not make you happy. They make you numb, and (at least for me) they destroy your sex life. What kind of life is that? I've come to the realization of acceptance. There's only so much I can control in my life, and that includes all the complicated chemicals swirling around in my head that are controlling my emotions. You start to realize that control and free-will is mostly illusionary, how you feel and what that does to you is more like a partnership with you and your body. There are of course things you can do but if your brain wants to make you depressed, you're going to be depressed and go through that experience. I don't think it wouldn't be as prevelant if it didn't serve some higher purpose, and I try to keep that in mind whenever I find myself depressed.
  • SonicSoul 9y ago
    It's pretty sad when my friend tells me his doctor diagnosed him with a lack of something in his brain where only way to go is anti depressants for the rest of his life. He didn't even suggest aerobic exercise or diet, nope straight to prescription drugs. I'm not a doctor but based on my experience with depression and health, lifeStyle is so much more important than drugs no matter which disease you have or don't have
    • DanBC 9y ago
      What your friend deserves is evidence based treatment. For depression that's a talking therapy (CBT), maybe combined with meds. The evidence for exercise as a treatment for depression is poor. http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depression http://www.cochrane.org/CD004366/DEPRESSN_exercise-for-depre... > Exercise is moderately more effective than no therapy for reducing symptoms of depression. > Exercise is no more effective than antidepressants for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on a small number of studies. > Exercise is no more effective than psychological therapies for reducing symptoms of depression, although this conclusion is based on small number of studies. > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > Attendance rates for exercise treatments ranged from 50% to 100%. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive. this line, and the last line, are important: > The reviewers also note that when only high-quality studies were included, the difference between exercise and no therapy is less conclusive. > The evidence about whether exercise for depression improves quality of life is inconclusive.
      • owebmaster 9y ago
        Ex-depressed people that got out of it with exercises are a better reference than this "studies". Even more when you compare with depressed people currently taking drugs.
        • Tushon 9y ago
          "Anecdotal data is better than a study" ... that's a big agree to disagree.
    • owebmaster 9y ago
      And the most depressing thing about this is that people with depressions don't wanna hear that their solution is so simple as diet, exercises and lifestyle. Depression comes with existencial crisis and (ironically) excess of entitlement so people think their situation is different, is biological, pathological, spiritual...
  • thomasfortes 9y ago
    Please, don't equate being sad with being depressed, sadness is a normal part of the life, feeling miserable every waking moment is not.
    • wu-ikkyu 9y ago
      How do you define what is "normal" in life? Is it not normal for people to have periods of their lives (weeks, months, years) where they feel constantly miserable/sad due to a variety of reasons?
      • nether 9y ago
        It's a fair question. The mathematician Ted Kaczynski proposed depression to be largely a modern construct (emphasis mine): > Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy, then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society. It is well known that the rate of clinical depression had been greatly increasing in recent decades. We believe that this is due to disruption of the power process, as explained in paragraphs 59-76. But even if we are wrong, the increasing rate of depression is certainly the result of SOME conditions that exist in today's society. Instead of removing the conditions that make people depressed, modern society gives them antidepressant drugs. In effect, antidepressants are a means of modifying an individual's internal state in such a way as to enable him to tolerate social conditions that he would otherwise find intolerable. (Yes, we know that depression is often of purely genetic origin. We are referring here to those cases in which environment plays the predominant role.)
        • wu-ikkyu 9y ago
          Aldous Huxley made the same point in the 1960's: >there is evidently a whole class of drugs effecting the CNS which can produce enormous changes in sedation in euphoria in energizing the whole mental process without doing any perceptible harm to the human body...a great deal of control could be used by not through terror, but by making life seem much more enjoyable than it normally does. Enjoyable to the point, where as I said before, Human beings come to love a state of things by which any reasonable and decent human standard they ought not to love and this I think is perfectly possible. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24712.htm http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24712.htm
• dogruck 9y ago
  My view is that depression is a treatable medical illness. I've never been depressed, but I've lost friends to depression. Edit: to the down voters, I'm not implying it's any easier than, say, beating cancer.
  • kyberias 9y ago
    Are there legitimate other views of depression?
    • DanBC 9y ago
      Some psychologists reject any hint of medical modal, and say it's only social factors. (that's not what I think. But these psychologists are reasonably common.)
      • Domenic_S 9y ago
        Ok, citation needed on that one. Some crackpots think that way, sure, but "reasonably common"?
        • DanBC 9y ago
          there's a whole organisation for them in the UK. All the "mad in america" stuff: https://www.madinamerica.com/about-us/ https://www.madinamerica.com/about-us/ > one that emphasizes psychosocial care, and de-emphasizes the use of psychiatric medications, particularly over the long-term. https://twitter.com/ClinpsychLucy/status/918029768951500801 https://twitter.com/ClinpsychLucy/status/918029768951500801 > It's not about 'illness.' It's about being human. http://peerlyhuman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/why-i-oppose-world-mental-health-day.html?spref=fb&m=1 http://peerlyhuman.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/why-i-oppose-world... … #WorldMentalHealthDay #WMHD17 https://twitter.com/Shrink_at_Large/status/917655214156529664 https://twitter.com/Shrink_at_Large/status/91765521415652966... > on World Mental Health Day, Let's remember structural inequalities and oppressions are behind many/most mental health problems https://twitter.com/AnneCooke14 https://twitter.com/AnneCooke14 https://twitter.com/DrDJWilde https://twitter.com/DrDJWilde https://twitter.com/peterkinderman https://twitter.com/peterkinderman etc etc.
• hndl 9y ago
  The solution is that every one of you listen to a friend who is in need and empathize and say, yeah -- i'm here. Kudos to Zach for opening up about this. I'm going through a similar shit show and I'm hoping that folks who grok it stick close and the others just sway with.
  • hndl 9y ago
    REMINDER: we're talking about something sensitive here.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• gblain23 9y ago
  Cutting gluten out of my life basically "cured" my depression, which sounds crazy, since it is just something I'm eating... I'm not allergic, but probably intolerant. I ate wheat for most of my life. I'm pretty sure it is related to inflammation, and how eating wheat products probably screwed my digestion up. I also rarely get sick anymore. Not trying to suggest that medicine, therapy, etc. does or does not work, just that there may be some other things that people can consider and experiment with.
  • cbau 9y ago
    Did you ever feel like gluten was affecting you? Or was this a random change you made that happened to have a noticeable effect?
    • gblain23 9y ago
      Definitely gluten. I've experimented with eating it, not eating it, and now have been gluten free for over 5 years since. My brother stopped eating gluten a few years after I did, and it also had a major impact on his mental and physical wellbeing.
    • r00fus 9y ago
      Not sure for gblain, but for me I actually broke out in pimples when eating excessive wheat/bread. Under a certain limit, I just felt bad. However, I'm not sure if it's just gluten or glyphosate toxicity [1] (being concentrated in GMO wheat as that includes "roundup ready wheat" which, clearly gets more roundup on it). [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15862083
  • 1_player 9y ago
    It's crazy, isn't it? Cutting gluten has become somewhat of a meme, but a meme repeated enough times must have some kind of truth to it. I've self diagnosed myself to a combination of depression/cyclothymia/bipolar disorder. Basically, I've been working at 50% potential, on a good day, for the past 10 years. Interested in the science behind ketogenic diets, I've tried to cut all grains and processed food for many month-long stretches, and I've always noticed my brain being sharper, and moving farther and farther away from the "black dog". But eventually I get back in the trap and it's extremely hard to pull myself up again — impossibly hard cutting grains with Italian friends and family. Keto probably isn't the solution, but I'm more and more convinced the key lies in our gut, not in our brain chemistry. EDIT: depression is a common modern "disease", and in my ignorant opinion, I'm convinced there's two types of depression: You might be depressed if your life is in the shitter, and there's no sane way of getting out of it. Think bad marriage or crippling loneliness. You might also be depressed because your chemistry isn't optimal, because of what you eat or bad health. I believe most modern depression is of the latter type, and in both cases medication treats the symptoms, not the actual cause. We need to do more work on this. Again, this is my personal opinion, and I might be talking out of my arse.
• cbau 9y ago
  Ignoring the content for a moment, I really liked how the background color changes with the mood of the content. I don't think I've seen that before, but it's refreshing from the wall of black text on white backgrounds which sometimes scare me away. Really enjoyed the post though. I think a lot articles which give advice without personal experience don't ever really resonate. This one actually makes me feel hopeful.
• ElatedOwl 9y ago
  I was diagnosed with "major depression" when I was 14, did the medication and therapy thing for a bit but the medication made me a zombie. Therapy helped me learn to cope a little better, but I was never "cured" of my depression. My 20s have been pretty bad, but in the last year and a half I've lost 100+lbs and have been running and lifting. It turns out the common sense advice to depression was really what I needed all along. * Sleep * Proper diet * Exercise If you're struggling with depression like I was - try and take baby steps to improving those 3. You don't have to be perfect and it doesn't have to be all at once, but through continued effort it has only gotten better and better for me.
  • ada1981 9y ago
    Have you tried regular voulentering, Gratitude letter writing, Holotropic breathwork or psychedelic therapy? I found those to be the most useful.
    • ElatedOwl 9y ago
      I've never done psychedelic therapy but I do vape a decent amount of weed. I think at times it helped me be a little more introspective without bias, but it could have just been a side effect of maturing. As far as breathwork, fitness is almost a form of meditation for me so I think there's some overlap. Running and lifting gives a lot of inner monologue and self reflection time.
      • alexssung 9y ago
        Meditation (at least mindfulness meditation) is meant to rid you of inner monologue though. It can be immensely helpful considering depression is often caused by constant negative thoughts.
      • anigbrowl 9y ago
        One psychedelic/psychoactive drug is not like another - not necessarily better or worse, just different. You may well be shocked by the degree of difference; I'd rather not resort to cheesy analogies because they're likely to create unhelpful preconceptions. If you do experiment, avoid the enthusiast's trap of trying to sample as many different cocktails as you can. Whether it's a maturity or a cultural thing, there are many temptations to 'max out' on the intensity of the experience, which I think are unhelpful. As for the therapy aspect, it's wiser to dose with an experienced person present who can help you if you feel distressed, but if a therapist is proposing to script the whole trip then it won't really be 'your' trip any more.
• Mz 9y ago
  Some of the best ways to deal with depression: 1) Address any known health issues you have. 2) Dietary changes. There are studies on this. 3) Problem solve. If you are depressed because of terrible personal issues, work on resolving them. (The article mentions that a run won't pay his bill or fix other problems. Overwhelming problems are a legitimate cause of depression.) 4) If you are suicidal, seek company. If you know someone suicidal, spend time with them. You do not necessarily have to talk about their suicidal ideation or the problems causing it. You can play games together, have lunch, be pleasant. Suicides generally occur alone. Just physically being there goes a long way towards preventing suicide. If you do want to help them, help them fix problems. Feelings come from somewhere. Just massaging emotions does not work. Do not "help" them by preaching at them ("Just go for a run!").
  • afinlayson 9y ago
    I 100% agree. But I want to highlight problem solving is so key to this. Like most things in life there is no silver bullet. Just running / working out won't fix everything. But it's a good start so that it's not adding to the issues going on. And if you are getting good results you can make it the foundation.
  • Raphmedia 9y ago
    That's the thing with clinical depression. You can be doing all the rights things and still be depressed. The worst moment of my live have been during periods where I was at my fittest and healthiest. You think to yourself : "I am hitting the gym three time a week. I've not eaten any junk food in months. I meditate and sleep full nights. Why is everything still seen through a haze? What am I doing wrong if everything should be fine? Am I broken? Who would want to speak to me. I am a fraud. I look healthy but I'm a husk of my former self. Everything is so exhausting." I have no answer as to how to deal with it. All I can say is that cookie cutter answers rarely apply and can even make someone miserable.
    • Mz 9y ago
      I am not suggesting this guarantees results, and I also absolutely did not say that physical fitness approaches alone are some magic cure all. These are the best answers I know of that actually get results for some people, some of the time. I rarely suffer depression, but I have a genetic disorder and other serious personal problems (such as: I just got off the street after 5.66 years on it and I was molested and raped as a child). My medical condition sometimes causes me to become suddenly suicidal. My two adult sons, ages 30 and 27, make sure I am not left alone when I am suddenly suicidal. They know other things to do, but a big thing is we just do not let me be alone when I am at my worst. Getting healthier has reduced the frequency and severity of my bouts. Figuring out how to make money online so I can be functional in spite of my genetic disorder empowered me to get off the street. I am still quite poor in terms of overall income, but I have some pieces in place for my life that are usually reserved for only the very privileged. It is having a positive effect on my mood and mindset. I am still stressing about money and I still have days when I get nothing done, but my life is vastly better than it has ever been. I am 52. So, I am speaking from firsthand experience, in some sense. I don't suffer depression per se, but I do wrestle a lot with frequently being suicidal. It often comes on suddenly. It always involves whackadoodle brain chemistry, a side effect of whackadoodle body chemistry. I try to put out useful information to the best of my ability. I do my best to couch it in nonjudgmental, non-blamey terms.
• ada1981 9y ago
  MDMA assisted therapy helped heal this in me entirely. I found depression was resistance to feeling and accepting my emotions fully and that I could instead make space to engage with and be with emotions.
  • kweinber 9y ago
    Is there a legal, accepted MDMA assisted treatment path or something you fashioned yourself? Any references you could share?
    • ada1981 9y ago
      Maps.org is the best place to get the latest resources and to learn of current clinical trials (mostly for PTSD). I did my work on my own with a trusted guide. Though I have been asked to write up my experience to serve as a starting point for more research. Basic format was 100mg + 50mg booster at 2 hour mark. Eye mask, couch, blanket, music. My interface with western psychiatry was a diagnosis of schizophrenia (at 18) and later bipolar (at 33). And I've experienced everything from anxiety, paranoia, depersonalization, depression, suicidailty, panic attacks, etc. I'm med free, feeling very healthy inside, in love with a wonderful woman. My relationships are nourishing and my internal compass is much more trustable. I'm 36 now, so it took a couple years once I decided to "fix" the problem. I also feel like I let go of a lot of the defenses I was hiding behind and quite enjoy life from a vulnerable and honest place. My biggest challenge now is just cleaning up the debts and general mess left by my healing process expenses and getting a bit more consistent income. But both of those seem possible and manageable. And I also have been able to help / coach a lot of other people along the way.
  • songshu 9y ago
    How did you deal with the come downs?
    • ada1981 9y ago
      Good question. I typically would use 5HTP and some other supplements for 3 days before and after the sessions. But I also learned that the "come down" was also a useful state of consciousness for me. It was like the water level was lower and I could see / feel the topography of my subcocious more clearly. So sensitive points in the following days became useful if I was able to go more deeply into the difficult experience, just like what the medicine allowed me to do. I often would feel like the medicine would give me a preview of the work I'd need to do in the coming weeks internally, and then when I encountered similar emotions in the weeks after, it was like the training wheels were off. So in short, the "come down"c which honestly was never anything major, was something I was able to use for further healing and exploration.
• Domenic_S 9y ago
  Meta (sorry mods, feel free to delete): Is anyone else getting insta-downvoted on every comment?
  • dredmorbius 9y ago
    It's a pattern I've seen on occasion.
  • DanBC 9y ago
    I don't know why all of your comments are getting heavily downvoted. You're making reasonable points, politely. I've upvoted them.
  • NumberCruncher 9y ago
    Some people don't share your views. So what? Why do you care?
    • Domenic_S 9y ago
      I've got the karma to burn that I don't really care about the points. But aside from the "downvote is not a disagree button," twice in a row I clicked submit on a comment and by the time the page loaded I was at 0. I mean it was so quick that I wondered if 0 was the new default! I noticed a few other people with perfectly reasonable comments that were grey, too. It seemed unusual. I've been around long enough to have a sense of what's usual.
• B1narySunset 9y ago
  I've been on a ketogenic diet for the past two months, and I've noticed less "down days", negative thoughts, and a more positive outlook on life in general.
• marlokk 9y ago
  Why is depression thought to be an illness with the individual? I guess otherwise would mean facing our slavers.
• lqdc13 9y ago
  Please be advised that taking SSRIs can have negative side effects that you might not be aware of. When people I'm close with start taking them, they are less interested in being intimate and stop "loving"/being affectionate. In my experience, having a schedule, exercising and making sure you are around other people help a lot more while preserving your personality.
  • oculusthrift 9y ago
    yeah well the same thing happens when someone is really depressed and not on ssris as well
    • kbhn 9y ago
      There's a difference between a lack of affection/physicality because you're depressed and because you're using an SSRI. I still wanted to be close to people while I was depressed - I just felt useless and unable to do much else. On the SSRI I lost the desire to be affectionate, both around others and when I was by myself. It took around 6-9 months after I came off the SSRI for me to feel like I returned back to a normal state.
  • pure_ambition 9y ago
    In my experience, people who start taking SSRIs have improved dramatically. Stop using anecdotal evidence to discourage people from seeking valuable help.
    • kbhn 9y ago
      He's not discouraging people from seeking help; he's encouraging people to be educated about the help they're seeking. For people who are in affectionate relationships, this is an important factor and is worth mentioning.
  • thanatropism 9y ago
    This, like a lot else in this thread, is good advice for people who are not depressed. Have the blues? Cut the fast-digesting carbs and experience less blood sugar fluctuation. Have bipolar depression that flips into florid mania after a day-long hike? Hoo boy.
• nkurz 9y ago
  The article makes an opaque reference to "the oft-quoted David Foster Wallace passage on suicide and burning buildings". Here's the actual quote from Infinite Jest for those who have not yet had seen it quoted enough to know by heart: The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling. And here's a longer excerpt from the book that includes the quote, with some discussion: http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2011/04/elements-of-suicide.html http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2011/04/elements-of-suic...
• marojejian 9y ago
  Understandably, these threads are full of anecdotal cases of effective depression treatments. But why should we assume the there is is a one-size fits all treatment (or even 3)? I think depression is akin to a common error code in the mind (and maybe body too). If the mind is at least as complicated as the biggest program we can imagine, why should we imagine one thing will likely fix this problem? This is like suggesting the same code would always fix a given common error. It seems more likely to me that there are many causes of depression. While there will be many commonly effective treatments, they will vary based on context. Sometimes the effective treatment will be very specific / personal.
  • pdfernhout 9y ago
    Here is a lengthy compilation of ideas towards coping with depression that I submitted elsewhere but it unfortunately got flagged as spam by Disqus and so was not published in the original context: https://sbindependent.org/depression-and-anxiety-in-college/ https://sbindependent.org/depression-and-anxiety-in-college/ It very much reflects your suggestion that there are many causes of depression and many possible coping and/or healing strategies, so I am posting it here. [It just got a "that comment is too long" error message on hn, so I need to split it up...] ==== Hi Jennifer (and any SB Independent readers struggling with depression for themselves or a loved one), Here is a collection of advice I've posted elsewhere for other people about overcoming depression and other forms of mental illness (or at least coping better with it). I hope this can help. I wish I had know this all when I was an undergrad at SUNY SB a long time ago. Perhaps it might overlap the readings you said a professor suggested to you. First, remember, the brain is mostly fat. You need to be eating healthy fats (like walnuts, avocado, omega 3s, etc.) for brain health. But that is just a start on what good nutrition involves to get lots of micronutrients (more veggies, fruits, beans, nuts, seeds, whole grains as in "you can see the grain"). Be sure you are getting enough vitamin D3 (which is almost impossible for most people without supplements given our indoor lifestyle and other lifestyle factors). And get enough iodine, like from sea vegetables. And also enough high quality B-complex vitamins. From Dr. Joel Fuhrman: "Depression doesn't have one specific cause; environmental and genetic factors may be at play, as well as psychosocial stressors, however, a major factor causing depression is unhealthy dietary factors. Fast-food and commercial baked goods are linked to depression in a dose dependent manner, and dietary excellence can be the solution for many suffering individuals. A feeling of a depressed mood can also be a symptom of other medical conditions or a side effect from a medication, so to be sure of what is causing your symptoms, you may need to discuss your depression with your doctor." Search also on "The UltraMind Solution: The Simple Way to Defeat Depression, Overcome Anxiety, and Sharpen Your Mind" by Dr. Mark Hyman, again focusing on nutrition. Water-only fasting helps in some cases of mental illness too (especially if brain inflammation is caused by some food allergy). The Russians did a lot of research and practice on that. Obviously, good mood is more complex than just nutrition. Look at Dr. Andrew Weil for a broader perspective. Or see an essay by Philip Hickey, Ph.D called: "Depression Is Not An Illness: It is an Adaptive Mechanism"; quoting from that: "In order to feel good, the following eight factors must be present in our lives. * good nutrition * fresh air * sunshine (in moderation) * physical activity * purposeful activity with regular experiences of success * good relationships * adequate and regular sleep * ability to avoid destructive social entanglements, while remaining receptive to positive encounters" [And when any one or more of those factors are missing -- it can lead to depression, with the likelihood increasing if multiple factors are missing.] Also, check out: "The Upward Spiral: Using Neuroscience to Reverse the Course of Depression, One Small Change at a Time Paperback" by Alex Korb PhD. There are lots more resources like that. There are lots of alternatives to placebo-like mental drugs... Search also on "Sleep deprivation can effectively treat depression" for another option to consider. Our society is also all too quick to label a "spiritual crisis" as mental illness (see Wikipedia on that term). Thanks for your series of essays on these mental health topics. I learned something from them, especially about how depression and anxiety can cycle together, where anxiety becomes the only force that can counter depression as far as getting anything done. That doesn't mean that is a happy or health way to be -- but it is informative to understand that cycle, and in that context of depression, the "benefit" of anxiety. As with Chester Bennington (who I learned about from the article you posted for someone else on that, leading me to your series -- and then watched his band's "Numb" video and a couple others), sometimes if we dwell on the negative, it does not really get us healthier overall. As in helping create the "Numb" video, Chester built on his strength of music and it at least sustained him for a time and helped him help others and in other ways connect with other people like with the rest of the Linkin Park band. And in that "Numb" video, one might hope for the same for the protagonist as there are certainly a lot of people out there who do appreciate art or can be moved by it or who take joy in creating it together with others. For my generation, Robin Williams is a bit of the same symbol as Chris Bennington -- although he used humor instead of music to connect to people and to manage pain (but not totally cure it). Like all helpful drugs, music and humor can make a difference in sustaining us as we cope with pain, but we still need to address the underlying issues as best we can. And even if both artists lost that battle with pain in the end, they at least had much longer and better lives from building on those strengths -- and the community around them was much better for their long-term willingness to do what they could with what they had. While most of us may never have that level of comedic or musical talent, or the opportunities to refine that talent by years of practice, "the woods would be pretty quiet if no bird sang there but the best". Someone with even a fraction of their level of talent could make the lives of many people around them a lot better with just a little humor or song added to every-day interactions. You can also use a talent as a volunteer or as a hobbyist sharing with others even if you do something else as a day-job. [continued in a part 2 reply to this...]
• earlybike 9y ago
  Nice thread and here my top 10 list of antidepressants (in that order): 1. Most of the times, there's a clear reason for a depression, something which is not that easy to change and worse not that easy to identify as the real cause (e.g. wrong boss, wrong cofounder, wrong investor, wrong friends, toxic workplace, big nose, etc.); before looking at the other antidepressants, try to get rid of the main issue; often it is even too late, even if you get rid of the main depression cause, the depression just stays (PTSD). Either because the cause was too strong or too long. Some think that there is no direct cause-effect-relationship but this could be also another sign of a severe depression and that they just resigned (‘I can’t do anything about my depression, it’s genetic, this is me...’). It ‘s easier to resign and to give up, especially if you are depressed 2. Have social encounters every day, best: have a SO or friends (ok) or some good coworkers (better than nothing); this can be quite hard, having social interactions is not that easy when lacking a SO or friends 3. No addictive/depressing online stuff (FB leading the way, then your smartphone) 4. Sleep 5. Cut gluten, should be on #1, gluten and too many wrong carbs boost anxiety 6. Keep carbs under control, no need for keto but low carb might not be the worst idea 7. Exercise 8. Working/be productive, consume less 9. Create urgency, set yourself goals with deadlines, get busy and you won't have time to get depressed; just imagine you catch a plane the last minute (do you think you are depressed when catching the plane? No of course not) 10. Meditation Again: Advice 2-9 won’t help if 1 is not solved. Edit: Why the downvotes? Edit2: After I got downvoted, my final advice... 11: Stay away from depressed people on HN because "negativity is infectious" (Robert Greene)
  • kbhn 9y ago
    > Most of the times, there's a clear reason for a depression I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly with that assertion without any supporting evidence. In fact, I would argue that rarely is depression caused by a clear reason which has a direct path to resolution. This is the exact perspective that makes those going through depression feel like others are trivializing what they're going through. That's probably why you're getting downvoted, since it's #1 on your list.
    • earlybike 9y ago
• icc97 9y ago
  This is the same Zac Holman who was fired from GitHub [0] when he was having tough times. It's great how open he is about it. I'm waiting until we see going to the doctor to talk about pain in your brain the same as going to talk about pain in say your colon. That is, perhaps not something you'd talk about to everyone but at least you'll be able to see someone for free in Europe or with minimal insurance costs in the US. [0]: https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people https://zachholman.com/talk/firing-people
  • FreePeachman 9y ago
    It's funny, I rarely have "emotional" interactions with people on social media. But the one time I did, it was Zach Holman ripping me a new one on Twitter. He treats people bad. No wonder he is depressed. He feels guilty because he is such an a$$hole.
• chrishacken 9y ago
  - "What is with it with people expecting that a quick run will sort out your life? Like cool, activity releases endorphins and shit, but are endorphins going to pay this credit card bill? They going to patch things over with my friend? They going to find me a job? They going to fix my life?" - "How the hell am I supposed to get out of the house to go running a few miles when I practically can’t get out off my couch?" No, running and exercise won't immediately solve your problems, but neither is sitting on on your couch. What exercise will do is make you feel good and make you a productive human being so that your brain is functioning optimally and so that you can solve those problems.
• cinnamonheart 9y ago
  I suffered from depression and anxiety for most of my life, and it's not something cured by lifestyle changes alone for every person. Despite exploring and keeping up with alternative treatments -- like therapy, CBT, meditation, regular exercise, a proper diet -- I was still anxious and depressed. These helped me manage the anxiety and depression, but they were still there, and, internally, quite overwhelming. It was a daily fight. The only thing that eventually pushed it from 'I'm managing' to 'I finally feel okay' was medication. I don't feel like a zombie, or numb; I just feel normal for the first time in as long as I can remember. It's not something that is manageable any other way for some, and the stigma associated with medication is only hurting those who need it.
• ThinkBeat 9y ago
  Here is a great lecture by Stanford's Sapolsky On Depression, that explains clinical depression fairly well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc
• gt_ 9y ago
  Psychologists are much better trained than therapists. If at all possible, see a psychologist. Therapists are minimally trained, and do not understand neurological conditions on nearly the same level. If your issues are beyond basic depression, a therapist will not be able to tell.
  • blakes 9y ago
    I'm probably biased (my wife is a therapist), but I disagree with you. Therapists require a lot of training (depends on state/specialization). Thousands of hours of supervision and a Masters degree in the field. I would not say that is minimally trained. Less so than a psychologist however. Therapists are trained in understanding systems and the why/how something is. You are very much right about psychologists understanding neurological conditions far better than a therapist. Therapists with a bachelor degree in psychology (like my wife) mostly agree that it is useless for a lot of therapy. Depression is a tough one. I'd just see both a therapist and a psychologist. Probably go for a therapist first and try to get some understanding of what is going on. It may help a lot! Or maybe not at all, with the nature of depression. Then see a psychologist and get some medication.
  • holman 9y ago
    (OP here). I don't necessarily want to disagree with you, but I think the answer with all of these things is "well, it depends". It really depends on the person, the situation, and everything. I think some people are perfectly fine seeing a therapist. My therapist was a psychologist as well, so that opened up some avenues that we might not have been able to explore otherwise, but when it came to any brain chemistry thing he was very quick to say, hey, go see a specialist in this area. I think that's kind of the commonality here; I know people who have seen different people (of varying professional degrees) and they hated their person. Sometimes it just depends on if you click or not. (Unfortunately, "hey go see a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist, but also it might take you a few months and people before you're comfortable!" is not a great rallying cry for people who are really depressed. But unfortunately that's how it goes sometimes.) In either case, I do agree with you that it's important to know what type of person you're seeking out, and whether you think that'll jive with what will help.
• pure_ambition 9y ago
  People: PLEASE STOP recommending depressed people to take psychedelics. There is no such thing as "psychedelic therapy." Psychedelics can easily make people with mental health issues MUCH WORSE. Nobody needs a full blown existential crisis on top of major depression. I get it if you like the idea of doing psychedelics, but they are mind-altering in significant and poorly understood ways, and can easily cause others harm - even if you feel they've done good for you.
  • dimal 9y ago
    There is ketamine therapy, which has shown a lot of promise. But I agree, it's important to do it as "therapy" under supervision of a doctor and a qualified therapist, and not just jumping into a K-hole on your own. Just going off and doing psychedelics willy nilly can do more harm than good.
  • tpm 9y ago
    There is indeed a thing called "psychedelic therapy", however it is not developed enough to recommend it to nearly [1] anyone at this stage. Pilot studies and clinical trials are being done and more prepared [2] for treating treatment-resistant depression with psychedelic therapy and there is a growing body of literature suggesting it really might be a significant help, we are not just there yet. [1] A relevant quote from: Robin L Carhart-Harris and Guy M Goodwin, The Therapeutic Potential of Psychedelic Drugs: Past, Present, and Future: "However, there is an important corollary to the continuing illegal status of psychedelics. It seems to me paradoxical, even incredible, that such drugs should not be available for medical use in conditions for which euthanasia is already available. In Belgium, neuropsychiatric disorders were first reported under euthanasia legislation in 2004/5. Of the first such 100 patients considered for euthanasia between 2007 and 2011, 58 had depression. Forty-eight of the total were accepted for euthanasia (35 completed) and 6 others had died by suicide within 12 months from the end of the study. Most patients were female, aged 40-60 years. Euthanasia for psychological suffering is similarly available in the Netherlands and Luxemburg." [2] https://www.ft.com/content/16209090-9589-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b?mhq5j=e5 https://www.ft.com/content/16209090-9589-11e7-a652-cde3f882d...
  • coleifer 9y ago
• gt_ 9y ago
  Just some mellow "Brain Shock" side effects and he was on his way. Terrifying.
  • holman 9y ago
    It’s extremely minor, and is a very common side effect. I’ll take these for a week or two over how I was feeling 100% of the time, every time.
  • taco_emoji 9y ago
    Yeah it's not as bad as it sounds. Hard to describe, but it's sorta like if somebody flashed a light in your face, you'd probably wince and kinda lose your train of thought. It's like that but without any obvious stimulus (and obviously without the retinal damage). And (at least for me) only happened when I was sort of sitting "idle" - not while I was standing or walking or actively programming, more just when I was half-heartedly reading some boring news article or whatever.
  • baus 9y ago
    I assume the drug here is Venlafaxine/Effexor or another SNRI. I've had similar effects when withdrawing from SNRIs.
• mpg515 9y ago
  An important subject ruined by incredibly bad writing. Do not write in this style. It is not funny, nor smart, but it is very bad.
• maxlamb 9y ago
  while on the subject, highly recommend this video on depression from Stanford's Sapolsky to understanding the underlying biological aspect of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc&t=1216s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc&t=1216s
• johnny99 9y ago
  I love you for writing this. I spent thirty years either trying and failing to fix myself, or being misdiagnosed (turns out treating bipolarity with antidepressants can do more harm than good). It wasn't until I had kids that I tried once again to get out of my hole, and got correct treatment. Luckily my kids were still little and the only dad they'll know is someone much better equipped to to be fully present and loving for them, in a way that was often buried before. To anyone needing help, if it's easier to take action for someone else, do it for their sake. And hopefully you'll see that it's ok to have given yourself that kindness too.
• baus 9y ago
  As someone who has suffered from, at times, significant symptoms of bipolar disorder, I glad to see prominent members of the community coming forward to discuss mental health. I think the best way to break the stigma around mental illness is open discussion. I wonder if there is a higher rate of mental illness in the software development industry compared with the population as a whole
• yters 9y ago
  In the same way pain can indicate something is wrong with our body, depression indicates something is wrong with our psyche. Lifestyle changes have helped me, but reasoning about the pain, trying to release it to God, and getting my life right have also helped. An older Catholic told me mental illness increased dramatically when people stopped going to confession regularly. Looking back, a lot of my depression came from guilt, and still does. Ignoring and rationalizing the guilt by believing free will did not exist did not help, it just made me unable to accept responsibility and fix the problems in my life.
• imd23 9y ago
  Zen and buddhism. (Zen is not really buddhism). Among many others things (therapy, running, playing high level piano, amazing remote job), Zen rewired and helps me to deal with this every day. I'd recommend this authors with all my heart to anyone: - Thich Nhat Hanh ("You are here") - Alan Watts - Eckhart Tolle ("Stillness Speaks") - Shunryū Suzuki ("Zen mind beginner's mind") - Ryan Holiday ("Ego is the enemy") Piano helped me quite a lot. First my teacher, I could even say my piano teacher played a more important role in helping me, more than my family ever could. Musically I felt in love with Chopin and I really hope someday to be able to play Ballade 4 op. 52. It puts me at least decade long goal (yup, it is really really hard to play that). Running, eating healthy, etc sure. But I think it works better to have the brain thinking better first. Otherwise we'll stick in the same trap over and over, with the same bad thoughts and habits we want to break. We need to get beyond thinking and feeling. Training ourselves to see them, observer them and letting them go. It takes a lot of time. But you can do it. Hope something of this help someone.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• throwaway5650 9y ago
  Throwaway for reasons that will become obvious. Imagine that you met a friend you hadn't seen in years. They seemed really down, and you ask what's up. They say, "My job is to collect tolls in a tollbooth in Alaska. For 9 months a year it's freezing, and the heater breaks every day, and I'm stuck outside wrenching on the thing with one hand while Googling "how to fix a heater" on my phone with the other while I slowly lose my fingertips to frostbite." Now recall a few weeks ago when someone posted an interesting article about a board game full of ridiculous, fiddling little rules that would take years and years to complete [0]. The reason no one has ever played this game through is not because there is _no way_ to play it through. It's not because a reasonably-intelligent person would be _incapable_ of coming up with a strategy for getting through the game. It's because so far, no one has thought it worth that time. There's no payoff. When you talk to a depresssed person like me, you are talking to someone whose body is that tollbooth, and whose life feels like that game. You can say "exercise." You can say "talk to someone." But when you say those things, you are describing a strategy for getting through a 1500-hour board game with no payoff. You are describing to me how to fix a heater in a toll booth in Alaska where I may be stuck for maybe the rest of my life, constantly worried that the damn thing is going to break again. So please, please, use that understanding when you talk to someone like me. Empathize. You can do that. You can say "that sounds awful." You can say "If you want someone to talk to I'm here." You can even say "Hey, let's go to the aquarium!" But be really, really careful about saying "go exercise" or "go talk to a therapist" and never, ever say it's going to be ok. ok? [0] https://kotaku.com/the-notorious-board-game-that-takes-1500-hours-to-compl-1818510912 https://kotaku.com/the-notorious-board-game-that-takes-1500-...
  • rmetzler 9y ago
    I've been in your shoes earlier this year. Or maybe I didn't come even close. I just want to say, I felt like what you describe. Then I read an article about the microbiome of dirt [0]. In the moment I read this on my smartphone I sat in the grass on a hill and I thought to myself, fuck it, what can go wrong, I'm going to stick my finger in dirt, put it in my mouth and eat a little bit of dirt. And that's what I did. I don't know if this was what changed my mood, but what I can say, that my mood was changed in less than a week. All the best to you. [0] https://qz.com/993258/dirt-has-a-microbiome-and-it-may-double-as-an-antidepressant/ https://qz.com/993258/dirt-has-a-microbiome-and-it-may-doubl...
• tabeth 9y ago
  One thing I want to mention in addition to what everyone else says is that community is essential. Even if you sleep well, eat right and exercise, without community it's likely depression will find you eventually.
• fiachamp 9y ago
  Thanks for posting this, right around Worldwide Mental Health Awareness Day too. To anyone reading this who is struggling but hasn't had the time to talk to a human therapist, I'm working on an accessible AI therapist to provide at least some experimentally verified help. I've got a prototype up at facebook.com/mindfulmarsha and would love feedback from yall. I work on this bot at night after work and am a ways out from doing anything to monetize it, so if you're interested in helping with dev time, message Marsha on FB or contribute to our patreon: www.patreon.com/mindfulmarsha I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder after a panic attack in 2014, ironically during a time that it looked like the startup I was at was going to be unable to raise a round and my girlfriend at the time was suffering from severe depression. It has taken me years to be functional despite my appearances, and I literally, while working on adding the PHQ-9 Depression screener to the bot, realized that I had also been suffering from depression. Trying to turn this pain into a platform though. Looking forward to feedback!
• slr555 9y ago
  Saying my family history is significant for depression is an extreme understatement. My parents and grandparents shared the sunny disposition of Henrik Ibsen. It was no surprise that I too suffered from major depressive episodes and dysthymia (persistent depressed mood over a long period of time). It has been a long strange journey but by taking advantage of what the medical community has to offer I now am happier than I ever thought possible. One really important moment for me was the realization that everything is biology. There is no difference between physical and mental health. Migraine pain and the pain of depression both hurt. A heart attack and suicide make you the very same dead. Everything you think feel and do is modulated by the soup between your ears. If the soup is short of some ingredient or another it manifests as emotion or behavior. The book Behave by Robert M. Sapolosky is a fantastic journey into the chemical basis for behavior. While the book is admittedly dense, Sapolosky clearly explains how neuroanatomy and neurochemistry form the basis of experience and consciousness. The writings of the late Oliver Sacks also illuminate how when the physical seat of perception and cognition, the brain, is disrupted in some way, our ability to perceive or what we perceive is fundamentally altered. A patient with a visual field disruption was only able to perceive half the food on their plate. Turn the plate around and the other half was experienced by the patient. The human organism is insanely complex and nuanced. Human life is in cosmic terms is a trace of a blink. For anyone suffering from depression I would urge you to put aside any misgivings you have about labels and stigma, find the best doctor you can and start to address your depression. It's pretty great not to be miserable. I've tried both.
• projektir 9y ago
  Some conundrums I have with this article and other folk here saying that you should get a therapist, that everyone should see a therapist, and you should listen to your therapist: 1. How do you find a good therapist, and given the disparity in their quality, why would you trust yours all that much? 2. Therapists can get very very expensive. Yes, including insurance. Very very expensive. 3. Therapists often can't meet you outside of business hours when you're often working.
  • AlphaWeaver 9y ago
    These are very real questions that we as a society really need to think about solutions for. Very good to point them out...
• devdad 9y ago
  With respect, and as pure anecdote based on myself, "run a mile" is really good advice. I've dealt with depression since puberty and the main thing that helps me is excercise. Lifting, getting punched with gloves or preparing for a marathon works wonders for me (not said as an opposite opinion than the author, but as a datapoint). And please, if you're dealing with depression, you need to find out what works for you. Friends and family can help you find your way back, but they can't make the decision. When you decide - you - to take steps for coping with it nothing is impossible. The author has sound advice on where to start. I'd just like to add that it can take quite some time, and that's ok, because life is long and you'll look back at this period and thank yourself for acting on it.
• eswat 9y ago
  health insurance problems (yay 🇺🇸, home of the brave, land of the shit health system) Not sure about other countries with universal healthcare, but seeking therapy for depression in Canada isn’t exactly that much better. Such treatments aren’t covered by public health insurance so you’ll be spending $100/hr CAD, likely more, out-of-pocket. When I sought therapy, and this is probably due to unfortunate timing or being in an underserved city (but highly doubt it being Ottawa), I had to wait 3+ months before any therapist near me had room. By that time I had largely remedied my depression myself out of necessity. EDIT: Realized I’m conflating psychiatry and psychotherapy with my comment. The former is covered by our system but due to the demand you’re looking at several months before seeing someone. My example of waiting 3+ months was just for a psychotherapist.
  • stevewillows 9y ago
    Check with your local mental health outpatient care. They most likely have a 10 week CBT group program. You'll also most likely be assigned to a staff psychiatrist or therapist. I did the program through my local outpatient, and it was awesome. It wasn't a total fix, but it did help me to become aware of some toxic patterns, triggers, and responses. In BC there are other groups after the 10 week course that are offered during the day, but that's not realistic for most people.
  • icc97 9y ago
    I could only see a therapist in the UK because my job's private medical insurance gave me £1500/year to spend. Those I knew who tried to get help on the NHS were just prescribed drugs by their doctor without being referred to a psychiatrist or a psychotherapist.
• miguelmota 9y ago
  Anti-depressants have done wonders for me (sertraline) and also for people I know with depression. On the flip side, I've read stories that they make people more suicidal. You won't know till you try different treatments. Some things work better than others for different people.
• matchagaucho 9y ago
  Thoughtful and brilliant... on many levels.
• abalone 9y ago
  Not a sufferer myself but I really enjoyed the book Rob Delaney: Mother. Wife. Sister. Human. Warrior. Falcon. Yardstick. Turban. Cabbage.[1] Very funny but also touches on his severe, near-fatal depression and alcoholism in an enlightened manner. Talks about medication, how he talked himself into getting help, the unfathomable experience of clinical depression itself, lots of the things Holman mentions. Now he's the "funniest guy on Twitter" and has a brilliant show on the BBC / Amazon (Catastrophe). [1] https://www.amazon.com/Rob-Delaney-Warrior-Yardstick-Cabbage/dp/0812983181 https://www.amazon.com/Rob-Delaney-Warrior-Yardstick-Cabbage...
• jackschultz 9y ago
  There are a lot of comments here about their depression, so I thought I'd throw my experience in here since it's slightly different. Last year, after having these episodes that I didn't recognize for a while that were seizures, I went to the doctor, had an MRI, and was started on the anti-seizure drug Keppra. The seizures went away, and I thought it was half funny this whole experience. Time ticked on for a month or so and things started going downhill. I have a programming and a golf blog, and I didn't have the energy to keep writing. I loved going to the gym and I just stopped being able to go. I love watching the Brewers every night on tv, but I half stopped being able to do that. It got to the point where for a few days in a row, I'd get back at around 5 and just sit in my living room chair in the dark until 9 and then I'd feel legit going to sleep. I knew I was having issues, issues that I thought were "natural", so I'd force myself to get out of the house. The biggest point was when I told myself to go out and buy some tea or something. So I took the train down there, made myself be friendly to the person working, and then decided to walk back. About halfway to the house I lived in I couldn't move, didn't have any of the energy, so I sat on a stoop for over an hour just unable to get up. There are so many side effects of anti-seizure pills which list everything you can think of mentally. And at some point I figured the pills could be the cause. I contacted the doctor who said stop taking the pills and made an appointment for a few days after to get a new drug. The morning after I didn't take the nighttime dose, I woke up and I could feel the depression going away. It's impossible to describe the feeling of knowing the issues were evaporating. I was out in the sun and felt happier. I could move. I could stand. The desire to do things was coming back. Three days later the depression was completely gone. It's tough for me to know if my feelings exactly match other people's depressions. I've never been the person to give advice to people with depression; It's obviously impossible to relate if you haven't experienced it yourself. There still isn't any advice I'd be able to give because it's just sitting there, being in control of you, and even when your head knows that you need to be active, knows that sitting there isn't the right thing to do, depression will still win that battle. I was so lucky that my issues were caused by a drug that I could stop taking, and that the issues vanished so quickly. I think back and can't imagine how difficult a life is when your actions aren't causing the depression, but be stuck with the depression thing caused by nature.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• phantarch 9y ago
  A question for the author or anyone who has been through a similar experience: Can you better describe what life is like without the "haze"? One thing that I see consistently in these kinds of writeups is the author describing living life "through a haze". Then later, after the therapy/drugs helps them out of the depressive pit, they say how much clearer things are. This worries me because I have plenty of days where I feel "hazy", but have always though it to be normal.
• ravenstine 9y ago
  Humanity has a long way to go before it can actually treat depression properly. Granted, some things have improved drastically, but there's a lot left to be desired. Awareness around clinical depression is a lot better than it was just decades ago, and that's great for the millions who are clinically depressed. Yet I've been seeing us going down this destructive path of seeing all depression as a physiological condition, which is often not the case and delegitimizes actual issues that are causing a person to be depressed. I can tell because too often the answer is either "just eat/sleep/exercise better" or "see a therapist and get medicated". What wonderfully simple solutions to a complex problem. In LA, my sort of city, the culture has an emphasis on being happy or "good" all the time. If someone asks you how you're doing and you reply "I'm doing okay", there's a good chance that person will cock an eyebrow and assume that something's wrong because you didn't say you were good or great. I suspect this is a phenomenon in a lot of places in America, but I think it's especially prevalent in SoCal where superficiality is through the roof. Sure, asking people about their day is mostly a form of social lubricant, but such language subtly tells the unconscious mind that something is socially wrong with broadcasting unhappiness of any kind. In actually, I'd say the unconscious mind is correct in its interpretation; people generally don't want to help you, let alone hear what you have to say, if something is genuinely wrong with your life or even if it's merely hum-drum. This can even be true with your closest friends and family, and even if they are receptive, you may be motivated to be stoic in order to maintain your role in your circle. Nobody wants to be the one who has problems or is "crazy" because everyone knows deep down that opening up could mean you'll be treated as lesser than you were when you held it all in. Social media is an amplification of this phenomenon. The vast majority of what you see on social media is people posting the very best of that they've got, creating a misleading image that they and everyone else are having splendid lives. Why aren't you one of those beautiful chiclet-teethed young people constantly traveling and partying? Something must be wrong if your life isn't like that. /sarcasm Therapy is great, and medication can be great for those who really need it. It just sucks that we've not created a world for ourselves where we can talk to each other about our problems. It's not about providing solutions, but about being heard and understood by someone. Maybe sometimes people are depressed for real reasons, and telling them that their feelings are akin to a disease can serve to harm them rather than help. I believe I'm open to hearing out my friend's problems, but I know that they think they'll be a burden unto others and be outcast. This I assume from hearing my friends mention going to therapy, but they rarely if ever have anything particularly troubling or deep to say to me. It may not even be conscious, but instinctual, to want not to seem like a burden – for the consequences can be hard to bear. It's about time we allow each other to be a burden every once and a while.
• mnm1 9y ago
  I love how he belittles exercise as a cure. Talk about closed mindedness and stupidity. Just because it didn't work for him doesn't mean it should be dismissed. It's the only thing that worked for me and many others. I'm really not even sure wtf this ridiculous article is saying. Anyway, what I'm saying is that belittling something that has been proven to help many people is stupid and even dangerous. Fuck medicine, Fuck therapy, and Fuck this idiot.
  • sctb 9y ago
    Please do not post like this on Hacker News again. We're here for civil, substantive discussion in which we have a hope of learning something—anything at all—and "Fuck X" is old news. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• swendoog 9y ago
  One thing for certain can be gleaned from reading all the responses in this thread: We have no idea neither what the cause of depression is, nor what the solution is. Everyone here has posted something different. Exercise, diet, sleep, medication x, medication y, prayer, water, gluten, meditation, losing weight, socializing... the list goes on, and on. If this weren't heavily susceptible to placebo, you'd expect that list to be much shorter. My guess is that just doing SOMETHING makes people feel better.
• acscott 9y ago
  In general, if one has a serious decision to make, it's probably wise to seek out expert counsel (not that you should blindly follow that counsel either). Same goes with your health. [Avoiding getting into some kind of discussion about anecdotes, scientific evidence, etiology, qualifications, etc. I am glad for remissions and worried about those still suffering.]
• K0SM0S 9y ago
  It's anecdotal, but I've found my cure for depression: it's called Stoicism. I hear it's been useful to people for a couple thousand years, and is pretty much 'confirmed' by modern cognitive psychology. I experienced depression on and off for about 20 years, between 12ish and 34 (2016). Then shit really hit the fan, the perfect storm so to speak, and I was shattered to the core of my being and my values. Honestly it felt as though dying would pretty much be a non-event (although I'm not suicidal so it wasn't really an option, but survival instincts kicked in at some point and were all that prompted me to feed once in a while each week for a couple months; it took half a year before I even wanted to get better, to cope). Then I read "The Obstacle Is The Way" by Ryan Holiday. This book pretty much changed my life. I guess it came at just the right time. I underwent a sort of 'quantum change' as some psychologists call it: a profound, meaningful, lasting and massive change of my core personality and values, even thought processes and emotional responses. I am me, I mean I do recognize myself and so do my friends and family, but I am also a truly different being, it's like my biology has changed and my mind with it, or the other way around, idk. People confirm that I do look different, in the eyes, in what they feel around me. I certainly feel like my old self was flawed beyond salvation and has died on a psychological level. I feel like I salvaged as little as possible and proceeded on reinventing myself. It is still an ongoing process, although slowly stabilizing (it will be a year in December). Overall I am now able to create from scratch all the joy and motivation I always longed for, to accept reality easily in ways that keep surprising me, and to remain positive (or neutral) in most circumstances. Nothing's perfect and that's good to me. I still have habits to master (dwelling on past circumstances that provoked this major episode last year), but it's night and day with what I used to be. Considering what I went through before this change, and during it, I consider myself lucky, even blessed on some level (atheist here, with some scientific awe for existence and the cosmos). Feel free to ask for more details and suggestions, I'd be happy to oblige, otherwise you know the book. Best of hope to everyone.
  • andrewjl 9y ago
    I'm curious about how you've come to realize you've changed as profoundly as you did, was it an instantaneous observation or something that revealed itself over time?
• openfuture 9y ago
  I spent several years paralyzed with depression, it got to the point that all I could do was stare at the ceiling - wasn't even worth the effort to commit suicide I might as well just wait until I die. Self destruction is a natural thing, a part of the growing process, you just have to channel it somewhere. Some do tattoos or something, I like yoga, but whatever works I guess. What I've started to realize is that we hold on to our ego with all our might until nothing else is left. However, embracing new perspectives is a prerequisite to growth and whether you do that through religion, drugs, therapy or meditation the fact is when you're suicidal you desperately need a new perspective. Letting go of your past self to become the next version is a metaphorical death and sometimes it can be confused with the desire for actual death. This is what I mean by channeling the self destruction, maybe you do it in a way that leaves a scar so you can be reminded of your older self. That may be necessary if you've been completely conquered by your ego.. but for most 'normal' people it's enough to "take action" so to speak and start behaving differently (exercise, food, socializing, etc.) Just never ever ever let yourself feel self pity. Self pity is a feedback loop and the worst thing you can do to yourself, if you can just stop that one thing you will eventually fix things on your own. Edit: That first step getting out of depression is difficult, you may need a nudge but be sure not to let yourself go back there!! You need to keep "self destructing" constructively or you will sink again, there is no cure-all that lasts forever. You need to keep living cause the living never give up - that choice isn't going anywhere, it's called death.
• lohankin 9y ago
  Following generic ideas as to how to improve your life is what makes people depressed in the first place. You MUST do this, you MUST do that, become rich, retire early, make the world a better place, do something for humanity, healthy diet, exercise, you name it... Sure this all makes you depressed - it's surprising there's still someone not depressed out there. And now what? More diet, more exercise? Come up with a list of things you enjoy. Be contrarian. Stop listening to anyone, and especially - to your "inner voice" - he is lying to you.
• wolfspider 9y ago
  In my teenage years what really helped with my depression was going out and getting involved in the local music scene. Becoming a "personality" of sorts did wonders. Especially the punk scene- those are some upbeat people they will literally kick the depression out of you simply because its not widely tolerated at their shows. Live a little, create your own strange fiction, give yourself something to remember.
• zoom6628 9y ago
  Good read and gutsy publish.
• NiklasMort 9y ago
  If you are not religious I find it hard to find a reason to try to continue or to get out of the hole. The biggest problem is the lack of goals, or feeling like you have done everything already. Then you ask: Why bother?
• nils-m-holm 9y ago
  There is a lot of advice regarding depression and a lot of things people say may be helpful to many others. There is, however, also the chance that someone's life really is FUBAR and no amount of exercise, therapy, drugs, and whatnot will change anything. And then everybody says that the one who is suffering "does not want any help", "is not suffering enough to accept help", "is happy with his suffering", etc. Well, pardon my language, but that's such a giant pile of bullshit! All that's happening there is that the one giving advice is helpless and not willing to admit it. And that's especially true of psychologists and other "professionals". Source: have lost three people who committed suicide and in two cases I would say that there really was no other way. We, as a species, totally suck at helping. And, yes, there probably would have been ways to help above people, but it would have taken time and dedication and who is willing to invest that? It's so much easier to try a quick fix and when it does not work, blame it on the sufferer. Unfortunately I was young back then and did not understand that...
• theyregreat 9y ago
  I have nearly life-long chronic major depression that can’t be cured with socialization, sex, money, sleep, diet, exercise or various forms of therapy. I’ll take a random stab that it is mostly genetic and partly by having had a tyrannical, histrionic, screaming father whom caused frequent stress: this then setup poor vagal tone and “walking-on-egg-shells” hyper-vigilance which then neuroplasticized towards reinforcing pain-depression complex of the military-industrial kind. I now have depression again after mirtazapine tachyphylaxis. It’s a widely-hitting NaSSA and powerful antihistamine (which also means hypnotic). It’s also the most effective antidepressant (I was on a heavy dose, 60 mg) but it causes weight gain (+25% body mass) and G.I. slow-down. That’s great when it works, but now I’m letting the old black dog have another ride as buproprion XL 300 mg isn’t doing anything useful so far. Maybe, still really foggy, confused and increased pain perception. Not being depressed is awesome: like the clouds parted, quieted inward observation, less reading, less writing, less sleeping-in, pain set aside, more energy, enjoyment and orderly thinking; almost manic but, presumably, not bet-kid’s-education-fund-on-18 far. Looking at next alternatives: * Bupropion XL 450mg * AXS-05 (60 mg DM with bupropion) * Venlafaxine ER * Venlafaxine ER + Lamotrigine * Venlafaxine ER + Mirtazapine PS: Paxil gave me serotonin syndrome and Zoloft did jack shit.
  • nylonstrung 9y ago
    I'm on Buproprion as well. I'd recommend ketamine, tianeptine, possibly MAOis. The latter are remarkably effective but underprescribed for a number of reasons, including an overblown fear of hypertensive crisis.
• codecamper 9y ago
  I was pretty depressed for a while. Swimming & surfing fixed that. Started surfing age 34, so it's never too late. There really is something about it that hits all the right neurotransmitters.
• GeertVL 9y ago
  "I want transparent discussion of mental problems in society." Me too. I am still in the same league Zach was.
• joeblau 9y ago
  Zach was one of the developers I idolized when I moved to San Francisco in 2011. From what I saw, he had everything going for him. Sub 10th employee at one of the hottest startups, amazing blog posts, amazing talks, great developer, ability to travel the world. He was the man. After the whole GitHub shakeup, I started hearing less and less from him and since I didn't know him personally, I never reached out. After reading this, I'm happy to see that he's in a really good place. I hope your best days are a head of you and I wish you the best Zach!
• chasd00 9y ago
  It's just about impossible to fix your brain on your own. The only tool you have is the one that's broken. How do you fix a hammer with a broken hammer? Seek external help first.
• b0rsuk 9y ago
  What worked for me was a combination of things: Physical exercise. 2 years ago I got scared because my bad back condition got worse. When I went to a therapy, I noticed exercises (with swiss ball) seemed to help me the most. I'm supposed to do them daily (they take 40 minutes each time), but by trial and error I figured out 4 is the sweet spot. Anything more and I get overtraining. To answer the article: how do you even start ? You simply start small. Performing the required number of repetitions is not important at all, and sometimes even counterproductive because you're tempted to use bad form to achieve your goal. Keeping your schedule is SUPER important. Exercise yields best results when it's regular, and this in turn tadaa!! builds character. No, really. I would argue working out even a little is more about willpower than anything else. Then I started adding other exercises to feed my vanity and make up for my insecurities. I always looked like a nerd. I added push-ups. Then squats (both 3 times per week). Quick tip: wall facing squats make it impossible to cheat. If you can't do them, do some stretching exercises and look up some progression exercices. I don't recommend running to beginners because everyone can do running half-assedly, but you need good technique to avoid permanent injury. I got permanent injury and squats compensate for this. I have an exoskeleton of muscles around my spine and knee now. I recommend cycling to beginners. Much harder to get an injury unless you like pedalling downhill (all the cases where I had an accident where while pedalling downhill). But this post already looks depth-first while my escape from the black hole was breadth-first. Music. I always liked music very much. Finding new music you like provides a short mood boost. I found funk. The trouble with music is searching for something you like requires time, and I need novelty constanty. But every little bit helps. Friends. If you don't have friends, and it's safe to say I didn't 2 years ago, go somewhere where people with similar interests gather. I found a place where people play board games. A small monthly fee and you can play one of nearly hundred board games with other male nerds. Board games are similar to computer games, but thrive on innovation in game mechanic department. Very good if you like strategy games. Board games are the most refined kind of multiplayer game, they are designed to be finished in one seating and the better ones are built about interesting decisions. Unlike with modern multiplayer where you are shoveled around with complete strangers by a matchmaking system, you get to play with the same group. It's like dedicated servers are back ! Even better, only one person needs to own a board game. It's like StarCraft 1 multiplayer "Spawn" feature is back!! Also, you get to see and meet people, and disconnects are very rare because it's more awkward to disconnect from people you're seeing face to face. No one would like to play with that jerk again. Automatic self-moderation system ! No need to appoint moderators, referees or implement a voting system that 2 pals can abuse to kick you because you killed them, or that never gets through because it needs 50%+ people and they're happy you're stuck with a bad teammate because it will make them win. I still don't have many friends, and I only really meet them every Wednesday - but every little bit helps. Get out of your flat. Simply go for a walk and see a changing view instead of the same 4 walls. No need to talk to anyone. This always helped me for a short while. Every little bit helps. Hypericum pills. Herbal meds that according to some clinical tests are as effective as synthetic meds, with much fewer side effects. Notably, they don't cloud your thoughts, which is important for a programmer. The one notable downside is phototoxicity. You want to stay away from sunlight, or you'll get permanent dark spots on skin. I accomplish this by covering my skin. I understand this is not an option in Australia, but every little bit helps. Note: for hypericum you want either pills, or oil/alcohol based extracts, because the key component doesn't dissolve in water. Don't waste money on "tea". Reading books, watching a movie. There are times when my anxiety overpowers me and I can't even focus on that, but a good movie puts me in a good mood and I don't necessarily mean a movie with a good ending. Meditation. Supposedly improves concentration, memory and stress resistance by 30-40%ish. Just what I need. I only recently started so it's hard to estimate if it's helping me, but it's free and harmless and easy. 2 times a day, 15 minutes. You simply go into standby mode, close your eyes, try to throw out all thoughts from your mind. In particular, don't think about the past and don't make plans. If you must focus on something, focus on the present, like your breath or sounds (but human speech is very distracting). Every little bit helps. Merely reading about your condition can be helpful. I started to feel better and gradually solve my problems once I read a bit about my behavior and motivation. It's like some barriers fade away and you slowly start exploring areas of your life you've never tried, things you were too shy to try, etc. It takes time. Tips on sleep: I have an alarm set to 23:00 every day. When it rings, I go to bed. Actually recently I started going to bed even earlier. Turn off TV if you have one, stay away from computer monitor, smartphones, tablets. There's something about the blue light they emit that makes people not realize how tired they are. When I go to bed, I read a book or a newspaper. This doesn't interfere with my natural exhaustion sensor and the extra mental fatigue helps me fall asleep faster. If I have insomnia and really can't fall asleep, I turn on the light and read. Then I try going to sleep 1 hour later or so. If you still can't sleep, just lie with eyes closed and try to relax. Lying with eyes closed will still make you much more fresh in the morning than going out of bed or watching something and pretending you had no rest. Also, I don't remember the source, but a recent study I read about found that sugar intake makes you feel better in the short run but causes anxiety and depression the long run. Foul stuff! To do all these things (acting is the hardest part of depression) I used observation and logic. Observation to identify activities that make me feel marginally better. Logic, to tell myself it will be worse if I never do them. See, it's like the female zombie in Return of the Living Dead says. You don't eat brains to feel good. You do that to make the pain go away. Do tell yourself it will make the pain go away, just a little. Keep repeating that.
• jamesmattis 9y ago
  I am diagnosed with severe depression recently. I am also an ADHD. Depression is a disease and I never dealt with it until now. I seek help from a good psychiatrist. And he has given me some great advice to fight depression and anxiety. 1. Exercise: I am running 3Kms daily. And its helping me alot. I feel fresh. I feel the strength in the body. The Dr. said to me that if your body is strong, your mind will be strong too. And it will help you distract yourself from depressive thoughts. 2. Healthy Meals: Cut sugar. Cut soft-drinks. Eat fish, vegetables, do proper breakfast.
• AElsinore77 9y ago
  In my experience, exercise was helpful, but mostly only after I realized what I could learn about myself from it. Primarily, it allowed me to better understand and manage 2 types of “automatic” thought processes that I have constantly: (1) Intrusive Thoughts - unpleasant thoughts that pop into my head (2) Motivated Reasoning - mind trying to draw logical but untrue conclusions in line with my current feelings at the time As an example of how the 2 may combine in normal life, an internal dialogue might look like this: (1) Intrusive thought: “I can’t accomplish this goal” (2) Motivated reasoning: “Because I’m a failure and I’m worthless” The most insidious thing is that these motivated conclusions feel so right, feel so self evident. With exercise, similar thought processes will arise. The difference is, because you are dealing with a simple physical task, there is the possibility of immediate physical evidence to demonstrate to yourself your intrusive thought, and the reasoning for it, are simply wrong. The analogous thought processes during exercise might look like this: (1) Intrusive thought: “I can’t finish this workout” (2) Motivated reasoning: “Because I’m not in good enough shape and it hurts too much, I can’t take it, I need to stop” There is a point where I feel like I want to stop, and at first it seems so reasonable to stop, to not overwork myself and hurt myself. But if I push on past that point, there is a realization “Huh - I’m still here, I’m still doing this, I thought I didn’t have it in me, but irrefutably I did because I am here still doing this after I thought I was done.” I always thought I was naturally unathletic; I was never good at sports and hated exercise until I became an adult. Looking back now, I realized the only reason I was unathletic was because I believed I was, and my power of belief made it a reality. As I’ve grown older, the intrusive thoughts and motivated reasoning are still here, but where in the past they stopped me dead in my tracks, now I have learned to see them for what they are and not let them define me. Everyone has different experiences, and I mean no disrespect to anyone who hasn’t found value in exercise; I believe there are many ways to learn these types of lessons; for me, it just happened to be exercise, but it could have been anything.
• andrewjl 9y ago
  Our society puts a strong onus on people suffering from depression to seek out treatment. Which, don't get me wrong, oftentimes works and can genuinely improve people's lives. But what if depression is a sign of a deeper societal / cultural / teleological incompatibilities with what naturally makes us happy or fulfilled? What if the real solution isn't to (just) treat individuals but to build the kind of world where depression is less prevalent. I'll repeat myself to avoid misunderstanding, every person should seek out and has the right to be provided with best possible treatment if that's what they need, my point is that it's a start but not enough to address the root cause. There are statistical relationships between rates of depression and modern "developed world" lifestyles.
• Simulacra 9y ago
  Depression is a killer, and that's even without stress. My husband works in politics and he goes through this depression and happiness cycle. The less stress he has (read: The more stress I can take off his plate) the better he performs and is able to manage his depression.
• baruchvelez 9y ago
  Wow this shit is a bigger downer than I thought...