20 ms·

Privacy

• azca 9y ago
  As a lifelong Android fan, I'm more and more convinced that I want to pay for an apple product in the future.
  • ianai 9y ago
    I read a book at one point about amassing wealth. One of the principles it said was critical was to always make contractual agreements that are generous to yourself and the other party (something like that). I think there’s something at play with apples products in that regard. Back in 2003 when I first bought a Mac privacy wasn’t a sales point for their hardware. But overtime the profit margin on apples products may be why they haven’t felt the need to “sell their users”. There’s wisdom in being willing to pay fairly up front.
    • stefco_ 9y ago
      I agree with both of these statements. My hacker side wants to get an android for all of the obvious reasons, but I really appreciate the fact that Apple's marketing interests are aligned with my privacy. I also appreciate that they are making a point of actively crusading for it. It's a fully selfish, profit-driven move on their parts, which is precisely why I like them: I don't have to trust them and their capricious future stockholders to "do the right thing", because they already make money by doing so. We're in equilibrium already. I am often disappointed by Apple's decisions, but their strategy is working on me, and I don't feel that I have a realistic alternative to protect me from hackers and over-enthusiastic government agencies (at least in the near-term future).
      • KozmoNau7 9y ago
        I agree with your assessment, I'm certainly warming up to Apple products, where I absolutely wouldn't have considering buying one just a year or two ago. I'm still not fully convinced (I'm very comfortable in my DIY PC/Thinkpad/Linux/Motorola/Android device bubble right now), but considering I barely even play that many games or anything anymore, I just want a desktop and a laptop that let me run a web browser, Spotify, a media player and a few token games with relatively low system requirements. So far, my 7 year old DIY PC (3.3GHz Phenom II X6, 16GB RAM, Geforce GTX460) and a 5 year old refurb Thinkpad T420 are both doing quite well, so I am quite unlikely to spend the required money to get into the Apple ecosystem. I do like playing around with old Mac stuff like System 6 and Mac OS 8/9 in emulators, but that's not really the same thing :-)
        • stefco_ 9y ago
          Yeah, my 7 year old middle-of-the-line MacBook pro is still kicking, so I haven't had to seriously think about upgrades. One of the annoying things is that I won't be able to make my next MacBook last that long because I won't be able to replace broken stock parts or upgrade ram/storage. I appreciate the tradeoffs inherent in modularity/replaceability vs. portability, but a huge part of the appeal of old macs was their ridiculous lifetimes, which I don't expect will be as long going forward. I mean, my 2010 MBP has 16GB of ram and a 512GB SSD. The benchmark stats are awful for CPU/GPU/memory/storage speeds, but it's pretty pathetic that 7 years later I can't even choose to get a new mac with more memory.
          • KozmoNau7 9y ago
            Apple is in dire need of giving their entire lineup a serious kick in the pants, they've been way too focused on iPhones and iPads. The Mac Mini is crap, the Mac Pro is crap, the iMac is middling at best (the new iMac Pro looks reasonably sweet, but the price...), the Macbooks are severely spec-limited, it's just a mess. They've painted themselves into a "thinness at all costs" sort of corner with the Macbooks, and they've have to go back on that and make them slightly thicker again, if they want to upgrade them. Last time they were backed into a serious corner (G5 PowerPC being completely unsuitable for mobile use and disappointing performance-wise), they took a chance and switched to Intel. They're going to have to mess with some important core design tenets this time. For the desktop line, a new non-stupid Mac Pro will go a long way. They also need to seriously refresh the Mac Mini, because it's just a piece of junk right now.
            • stefco_ 9y ago
              Don't forget the upgrade factor. I find it totally ridiculous that you're forced to buy external enclosures for pro-grade equipment instead of just having a nice, toolless access panel for upgrades. I miss the tower Mac Pro, which looked beautiful partly because it looked like a practical, industrial tool designed for easy physical access. Not everything needs to look physically seamless...
    • eksemplar 9y ago
      I think it has more to do with Apple. I say that because other luxury products, like expensive cars, track the shit out of you.
  • beaner 9y ago
    I am an Android user and I feel more safe with my data there than on an Apple device. I'm open to being wrong - why is iOS more safe?
    • prklmn 9y ago
      When have iCloud users been hacked outside of phishing attacks?
      • beaner 9y ago
        I was thinking of the iCloud celebrity hack, but you're right - Wikipedia explains that it was initially thought to be a hack, but turned out to be due to phishing. (Though it does mention an exploit that could have been taken advantage of at the time.) I've edited my original comment to remove that part.
    • colechristensen 9y ago
      It's much less about being hacked, and much more about what Apple will do with your data vs. what Google would do. Apple sells hardware, resells apps and media. Google sells advertising. The hardware company's interests are much more in line with the interests of your privacy than the advertising company. It's about what Apple will do willingly with your data and what it won't do. Google's entire purpose is classifying and measuring you so that the ads it serves you are the most effective. In other words you are their product, or more specifically, they sell the ability to manipulate you to the highest bidder. Ok that's a little harsh, but with the last election a large (and seemingly apparently growing) factor in the result was the ability of each side to manipulate populations of voters. It's not too much to want as much as possible to minimize the attack surface for organizations to profile and serve you information tailored to shape your behavior. The issue with how far Apple apparently went to protect the data of one of it's (mind you, entirely guilty) customers[1] makes a person think that buying Apple is a preferred choice. I'd like the ability to own my devices and data to the extent that the government or the manufacturer cannot give it away without my agreement. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/29/apple-vs-fbi-all-you-need-to-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/29/apple-vs-fbi-all-you-need-to...
  • increment_i 9y ago
    I agree. I wonder how many people are in this same boat. Judging by the strength of this particular marketing push, I'm guessing it's a lot. I've had an Android phone for years now and it's getting a tad too creepy - which is a shame, because I much prefer Google's services to Apple's.
    • lern_too_spel 9y ago
      What do you find creepy about your phone? The difference between Android and iOS is that with the former, you get to choose which services to use. If you want maps that track you to show traffic, you have multiple options. If you want offline maps that don't send any data off the phone at all, you have multiple options there too. Any of them can become the default maps app that gets loaded whenever you click a location link. Same for browser, email, phone calls, contacts, etc.
      • zoul 9y ago
        I think the point is that it’s a surprising amount of work to make all these choices right, so it’s sort of easier to pick a platform that aligns with your view on privacy by default.
        • lern_too_spel 9y ago
          Another way to look at it is that there is a spectrum between privacy and usefulness where Android lets you choose any point on that line, defaulting to usefulness, while the iPhone forces you into a strange point on the spectrum between privacy and usefulness that doesn't seem to be a good fit for anybody. For example, Apple's email service and maps service are both significantly less convenient than Google's, but a privacy-conscious user would use neither (offline maps and PGP email), which is not an option on iPhone but is on Android with the simplicity of installing an app. Similarly, a privacy-conscious user would not want anybody to know what apps they have on their phone, which is not an option on iPhone but is on Android (simply don't install apps from the Play Store).
          • 9y ago
  • voltagex_ 9y ago
    I've got a significant amount invested in the Google ecosystem, but I think when this S8+ stops getting updates I'll be going to Apple (it was a tough choice between an iPhone 7 and the Samsung this time). Besides, I can always get a ~$150 phone from AliExpress to hack on.
  • wvenable 9y ago
    As a long time Apple user who has moved to Android, I wish that Apple's privacy also didn't come with a highly restricted walled garden. I would love it if the level of Apple privacy came to Android but not if it meant losing the tiny bit of openness that Android has over Apple.
    • fosco 9y ago
      I find myself dreaming more and more about PostMarketOS [0] and it's potential. I cannot wait to try this out after cell and data have been integrated (I have not checked in 30 days in case it anyway had but I suspect it is at least a few months out) [0] https://postmarketos.org/ https://postmarketos.org/
      • creatonez 9y ago
        What do you think about the Librem 5 phone, who are collaborating with the KDE and GNOME people to create a consistent mobile interface where Matrix is a first-class citizen?
        • fosco 9y ago
          I am interested to see where the librem phone goes but I am not sold on it yet. I am excited about it, but do not like the idea of asking for donations/funding without having design completed yet... my concern is I give money then do not like a decision they have made.... in any case I am watching it closely, what about you?
    • KozmoNau7 9y ago
      Which kinds of restrictions have you run into, in the Apple ecosystem? I'm asking because I've only ever owned one Apple products (an iPad Air 2 that was gifted to me) for a short while, and I chalked up all the limitations to simply being due to being a tablet, and not an full-featured computer.
      • wvenable 9y ago
        If I had only Apple products, my Amazon Echo would be useless (no app in the store in my country to activate it -- I sideloaded it on Android). I run Firefox as my primary browser on my Android tablet, on my iPhone it's Safari only. I run a few different mail clients on my Android phone, on iPhone you have one default mail client. Etc.
  • staticelf 9y ago
    Same here, next phone iPhone 8 is going to be my phone of choice.
  • KozmoNau7 9y ago
    As a former Windows fanboy and current Open Source/Android/Linux proponent, steps like these move me slightly closer to not being completely opposed to the idea of owning Apple products. I used to own an iPad Air 2 (given to me during a course I was taking), and it was a super slick and very well-integrated device. It just had some odd limitations that I was not a fan of, so I moved back to a Thinkpad running Linux. But I had pretty much the same experience with my previous tablet, an Asus Transformer Infinity, so it was probably more of a general tablet thing. The main thing keeping me from buying Apple products these days is the price, and of course the fact that no proper Apple desktop exists, outside of the super underpowered Mac Mini and the silly trashcan Mac Pro. I have a perfectly good display already, which I intend to keep for a long time, so I don't want an iMac. And I very much dislike the Apple Evangelism and super-annoying slavering fanboys, to whom Apple can do no wrong ever, and all other tech companies are basically banging rocks together, in their perception.
  • madshiva 9y ago
    Privacy over freedom?, both get data, information. both don't sell. Google sell AD, not your personnal data.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• trevoranderson 9y ago
  Apple is pushing the privacy angle pretty strongly now, and I can't really blame them. It's a key differentiator between them and their chief competitor. The phones are good on their own, but when choosing between having every action tracked and keeping some things to yourself, unsurprisingly a lot of people want privacy. Here's hoping their marketing can help ordinary people who wouldn't normally care about privacy see why it's important (and maybe score some wins for privacy at the polls in the future!)
  • analogic 9y ago
    Honestly on verge of switching, despite my deep disdain for the locked down walled garden. Hopefully their privacy stance is a raging success and catches on to every other service that I only minimally use due to the 'surveillance chill' effect. (..goes back to tracking my users) If only it wasn't for that fscking no headphone jack..
    • aerotwelve 9y ago
      I recently bought a new Android phone, not out of any love for Google and their horrendous privacy policies, but out of love for my headphone jack. Apple, what were you thinking?
      • hkjayakumar 9y ago
        Apparently Google is also ditching the headphone jack[1] on the new Pixel line [1] http://bgr.com/2017/07/27/pixel-2-rumors-no-3-5mm-headphone-jack/ http://bgr.com/2017/07/27/pixel-2-rumors-no-3-5mm-headphone-...
        • piyush_soni 9y ago
          All the more reason to curse Apple for its "courageous" step :(
        • guelo 9y ago
          Luckily for consumers Android is a diverse ecosystem not controlled by one single manufacturer. There are many devices with headphone jacks to choose from.
• danso 9y ago
  Impressive to see a detailed page dedicated to affirming privacy as a "right". One of my first thoughts was, "it'd be nice to see a white paper" -- which Apple does when you get to the bottom of the "Approach to Privacy" page (linked to from the submitted URL): https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ https://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ There's a link to an iOS security white paper that was published in March 2017. And there's one for FaceID. Not sure how if any of the info was previously unknown, but the paper's publish date is September 2017: https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide.pdf https://images.apple.com/business/docs/FaceID_Security_Guide...
  • heartbreak 9y ago
    Some discussion of the FaceID white paper began ~12 hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15349372 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15349372
  • ucaetano 9y ago
    > Impressive to see a detailed page dedicated to affirming privacy as a "right" That's just marketing speak for "we failed to make a business out of tracking you, so now we're spinning that to our advantage". If Apple had succeeded with iAds, you wouldn't be seeing this page now. Just business as usual.
    • savanaly 9y ago
      Well I'm not sitting in judgement of Apple at the pearly gates, I'm a consumer trying to decide what brand of electronics to get. So I think it is fair to say it impresses me on that level to see them so committed to privacy.
    • freedomben 9y ago
      Exactly. I try not to be so cynical, but this is so clearly a marketing tactic that research and emerging trends have shown is a winner for them, since they are so far behind in the AI race (and AI can't succeed without data, so by harming people's acceptance of data harvesting they in turn reduce their competitors' advantage).
• eightysixfour 9y ago
  I really struggled with my most recent phone purchasing decision but ended up sticking with iOS because, despite how much I love the customizability of Android, I feel like the stance Apple has taken on privacy over the last few years is something I want to support. I understand that for them it may just be a business decision and differentiator, but it is one that is important enough to me to keep me on their platform.
  • kbenson 9y ago
    That's interesting, because as a long time android user (I had an iphone 3G back in the day when it was one gen old, android since then), I'm going to struggle when it comes time to replace my Galaxy S6. Not only does Google make it hard by only offering high-end stock phones now (Pixel), Apple stepping up their commitments to privacy (not just this, but everything the last few years) has really helped counteract the bad taste I get from some of their policies.
    • abritinthebay 9y ago
      I’m curious: which policies?
      • kbenson 9y ago
        App store policies mostly, such no browser engine except Safari, no replacing functionality offered by a built in app (is that still one? It was for quite a while), etc. There are policies that empower the user, such as making applications subscribe to specific security permission sets and notifying the user what those are, and there are policies that restrict the user, such as only allowing signed applications delivered through their own app store. To my mind, Apple is much more willing to restrict their users for what they see as their own good, as well as for Apple's profit. Android isn't perfect in this regard either, but it's better (at least for a lot of brands, which allow third party applications if you jump through the right hoops).
        • ryanobjc 9y ago
• dsabanin 9y ago
  It's great that privacy advocates now have such a powerful ally as Apple. Even if it's only just for raising public awareness in that privacy online is important. They are not perfect by any means, but it definitely takes the discussions about privacy, encryption and personal data protection away from the "don't be paranoid" or "just don't be a criminal" territory.
  • KGIII 9y ago
    I still see those sentiments frequently, even posted non-ironically and even on HN. It baffles me. People don't seem to value their rights, especially if they aren't using them. What many don't seem to realize is that the loss of liberties may impact them when they do decide to use them. They may not feel like they need privacy now, but what about what they do becomes taboo? Rights need to protect even the worst among us, and they are eroded by using the worst among us as examples. I don't really have anything to hide from the government, but I damned sure support the 4th. Some day, I might want to hide something and be secure in my person and papers. I don't like most criminal activity and I don't like terrorists, but I really don't want them being used as an excuse to erode my rights.
    • KozmoNau7 9y ago
      Exactly, I personally don't feel like I have anything particular to hide, but I fully 100% support people who do feel like they've got something to hide, and their right to privacy. So for now, they can have my data. But I try my very best to avoid letting Google et al. infer other people's actions from mine, so I don't tag people in photos or otherwise expose them or their actions, without their consent.
      • KGIII 9y ago
        We are very similar, in those regards. I don't mind if people post my photos, but I ask that they not tag me in them. I don't have any accounts on what people call social media sites. (I'd argue that Slashdot qualifies as a social media site, for example. I don't have twitter, Facebook, etc...) I have been a sort-of, low-level, public figure. So, I don't mind if people post my picture, I'm used to it. I just ask that they not tag me, specifically in non-public spaces. I only have so much privacy, really. I mean, I've been in newspapers, magazines, and on television and radio. I don't mind if those things get republished, but I'm happily retired and my private life is something I'd like to keep that way. Err... I'm not famous or anything. Well, I'm famous to maybe a dozen people. I had some brief fame when I sold my business, but that was it. I'm not even notable enough for a Wikipedia article, I don't believe. I'm a mathematician who helped bring traffic modeling to the age if computers, that is it. I got lucky and sold my company. It was to a publicly traded company and so there were SEC filings and the likes. That's the extent of my infamy. Since then, I've retired to the side of a mountain in Maine. It's nice and I live here because it's very remote. In return, I get some privacy when I want it. People are good about that here. But, I don't really have anything to hide. I will happily tell you all sorts of information - about me, and only about me. It's not my right to tell you about the private details of other people. So, I don't mind being posted if I am in a public space. I don't mind, within reason, if it is in a private space - but don't tag me and certainly don't tag me in a private space, or tag the people with me. Basically, don't put me in a position where I am used, willingly or not, to compromise the privacy of another person. I don't think that's too much to ask. Just, you know, be smart about it. So, yeah, I can see where you're coming from and very much agree. We're pretty similar in those regards. Also, speech... I don't have anything offensive to say. Yet, I'm a very adamant supporter of the right to free expression. I am even willing to defend the free speech rights of Nazis and Nazis pretty much hate me. I'm not white, not on the political right, and I'm not a huge fan of strict nationalism. Not that they need all those reasons to hate me, they hate me just because of my skin color. But, I still strongly support their rights to free speech. If I can't support their rights, it means I had no principles to begin with. Besides, someday, my speech may be considered harmful. Someone has to defend it. Sorry for the novella. I need to sleep soon.
• copperx 9y ago
  How true is this? Is there any way to confirm what Apple says with respect to privacy? Serious question.
  • danso 9y ago
    Confirm what exactly? That they as a company prioritize privacy in the design process? Or the technical aspects, such as FaceID/TouchID data not being uploaded, or selling user data to third-parties?
  • kawera 9y ago
    We may never know for sure but at Apple's scale the cost of getting caught lying is just too high.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  • gt_ 9y ago
    Compared with the competition, they have little motive for not following through. Their business model doesn't rely on data collection, data redistribution or advertising whereas much of their competition does. Google gives data to other parties for income and so they would have little ground to make such promises. Instead, Apple's profits generally come from a hardware business with large margins thanks to outsourced overseas slave labor. Also, they have held their ground against heated government requests in the past.
    • bigbugbag 9y ago
      They still have to give in to legal request and government request. I remember reading on HN that apple has a history of cooperating with law enforcement behind the scenes. Also they were in Prism.
  • ISL 9y ago
    Indeed. Are there reproducible builds of open source software and firmware in iOS? It is my impression that it is still closed-source.
• daxorid 9y ago
  [edit] disregard.
  • stephenr 9y ago
    What is LE in this context?
    • grzm 9y ago
      Law Enforcement
    • newscracker 9y ago
      Law Enforcement would be my guess in this context. I did have to think a bit to come up with this though.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • Gaelan 9y ago
    > Absolutely useless unless you enable ten-attempt wipe, which is disabled by default. Why? Apple does increasing timeouts on password attempts no matter what; is that not enough?
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• solomatov 9y ago
  I like that the company which takes users' privacy interests seriously exists, and I am more than willing to pay for it. Unfortunately, they don't have their own search engine and social network.
  • stephenr 9y ago
    For search: DuckDuckGo. For social, well I use twitter and simply don't provide extra details like date of birth etc, but it probably depends what your goal is with a social network?
    • solomatov 9y ago
      DuckDuckGo isn't that good. I would use Google and sacrifice privacy. Concerning twitter, IMO, it's no different than others. For example, they still use social button which theoretically might collect information about the sites you visit.
      • stephenr 9y ago
        > DuckDuckGo isn't that good Myself and others who use it daily would disagree. > it's no different than others By definition of how it works it's different. With a decent content blocker in safari none of the social media buttons can "track" you.
        • gvurrdon 9y ago
          Annoyingly, Apple recently removed the means to block such tracking from apps as well: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-cracking-down-on-vpn-based-ad-blockers-that-work-in-third-party-apps.2056730/ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/apple-cracking-down-on-... I went back to Android so I can continue to do that, as well as using Firefox plugins. This is a bit of a nuisance as the Apple Watch was rather good.
          • solomatov 9y ago
• j45 9y ago
  I recently read an interesting comparison: Apple is a product company first, and a services company second is supported by having privacy support their core product business. Companies like Google are a service company first, and a product company second. The information is the business. It's a struggle still, to reconcile this strong statement from Apple with how often Macbooks call home.
  • stephenr 9y ago
    Google is an ad network company first and foremost and anything else a long way behind.
• flybass89 9y ago
  "You can easily secure your devices with a six-digit passcode, which is very tough to crack since there are a million possible combinations." ... rofl
  • stephenr 9y ago
    What's the funny part?
    • nextlevelwizard 9y ago
      I'm guessing since digits are pretty finite (0 - 9) and people aren't really that random with their PINs, so it's not bulletproof by any means. You really are better off of using actual password to unlock your phone. This being said, I think 6 digits with the wipe after x wrong guesses is pretty solid for your average bear. Most users' PIN will never get tested and it is enough security so pick pockets can't get into your stuff.
      • robin_reala 9y ago
        So set a longer password? You’re not limited to 6 digits, there’s an open ended ‘custom alphanumeric password’ option.
        • nextlevelwizard 9y ago
          With PIN you are actually limited (as far as I know), but as I already said in my previous comment the password is better and that is what I have always used on my iPhone.
          • stephenr 9y ago
            As of iOS 11 (or possibly earlier) the numeric digit code isn’t limited to 4/6 digits.
  • millstone 9y ago
    The built-in rate limiting means that millions of passcodes are hard to brute force. That’s what the FBI spat was about -the rate limiting.
• piyush_soni 9y ago
  Comparing that with https://google.com/privacy/ https://google.com/privacy/ ... Of course it collects much more data than Apple, but I like Google's organization of this information too. All important things are clearly and carefully written down with options to change them near each of them. (Sure, you can't permanently stop data collection with any option yet :) )
  • danso 9y ago
    That's a great looking landing page, though I think it's another example of the stark contrast between Apple and Google in regards to privacy. Apple's page begins with "we believe privacy is a fundamental human right". Google starts with the headline "Every day, data makes our services work better for you", followed by, "That's why it's important we keep it private and safe". That said, I really do love the data "takeout" feature. But my guess is that most people don't know about it. I once tweeted something innocuous and nerdy about the JSON format used and I got a ton of response, most of which was surprise/shock that this data was collected at all: https://twitter.com/dancow/status/849111902961532929 https://twitter.com/dancow/status/849111902961532929 (Then again, I still remember when Steve Jobs was flat-out defiant that iOS was collecting/storing user geolocation data, even when the SQLite database was easily discoverable: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/technology/28apple.html)
• beefsack 9y ago
  HN generally really supports Apple products and the company, but cynical old me can't possibly believe some monstrously powerful for-profit corporation could ever make customer freedoms a primary goal. My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line somehow (perhaps they want to project an image of being customer friendly?) I don't want to be unfair towards Apple, I think large corporations inherently lack empathy for customers and primarily focus on their bottom lines as a consequence of their ownership and structure. It's just very concerning to see people become emotionally attached to corporations or products partly because of stances like these, when I'm fairly certain those stances aren't completely sincere.
  • nextlevelwizard 9y ago
    >My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it affects their bottom line You are absolutely correct, but maybe not in a way you think you are. I currently whole heartedly believe that while Apple is obviously trying to maximize their profits, they are also in for the long game. They want the company to keep making money for decades to come. This means listening to concerns of your consumers is key. Some times I get this feeling that Samsung and other smart phone vendors are always trying to one-up their competition. While Apple is trying to just improve on their own shit. Which sometimes means that their product is strictly worse in some aspects, compared to their competition. Taking security seriously, which Apple has done in past years and now taking privacy seriously puts them in a very good position for the long term. They could have easily started to track their users and sell the data to get some instant boost in profits, but that would not have been good for business in long term.
  • RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
    > My gut tells me Apple are taking this stance because they feel it directly affects their bottom line. That's a feature not a bug! This means that Apple thinks a core of well-paying customers view privacy as very important and are willing to pay for it.
    • confounded 9y ago
• X86BSD 9y ago
  You won't see this from Google or Facebook or Twitter or...
• martins_irbe 9y ago
  And then there is this https://github.com/KrauseFx/detect.location https://github.com/KrauseFx/detect.location
  • qzervaas 9y ago
    If you want to be super paranoid about it, cell providers and banks know your whereabouts most of the time also. iOS at least gives you the option to deny apps access to the photo library, to prevent this from being available. Perhaps an additional privacy control specifically related to allowing apps to read EXIF data?
• danjoc 9y ago
  Apple phones are still available in China. China blocks WhatsApp. "Privacy"
  • Veratyr 9y ago
    iMessage?
    • danjoc 9y ago
      Prism. It seems everyone has really short memories. "Bu-but they changed. They keep data private now!" Fappening occurred because Apple left the law enforcement backdoor open, and haxorz exploited the hole with elcomsoft password breaker. Now I'm supposed to believe they have privacy, because they have a marketing campaign about it. Nice try. How exactly is Apple going to protect private information when they are shipping zero-days in Keychain? Privacy can only happen after security, and Apple clearly doesn't have security.
      • Veratyr 9y ago
        Prism is an American thing, not Chinese. Not really relevant here. Also: > http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/01/21/nsa-leaker-edward-snowden-refuses-to-use-apples-iphone-over-spying-concerns---report http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/01/21/nsa-leaker-edward-... "Later leaks revealed that the NSA had created spyware targeted at the iPhone, which would have given intelligence services access to SMS messages, on-board data, live microphone feeds, and positioning information. It remains unclear how successful that program was, and Apple again denied involvement." It seems likely the problem is resolved by now. > Fappening occurred because Apple left the law enforcement backdoor open No it didn't. https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/15/prosecutors-find-that-fappening-celebrity-nudes-leak-was-not-apples-fault/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/03/15/prosecutors-find-that-fapp... "From the court documents, it became clear that the victims of Collins’ attack fell prey to a phishing scam. Collins allegedly sent e-mails to the victims that appeared to come from Google or Apple, warning the victims that their accounts might be compromised, and asking for their login details. The victims would enter their password information. Having gained access to the e-mail address, Collins was able to download e-mails, and get further access to other files, such as iCloud accounts."
• ucaetano 9y ago
  Don't fall for the marketing spin. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/business/apple-china-data-center-cybersecurity.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/12/business/apple-china-data... http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-china-vpn-20170731-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-tn-apple-china-vpn-201...
  • moscovium 9y ago
    Not trying to be an apple fanboy here, but that seems like a business decision concerning Chinese citizens to keep operating in China, having nothing to do with non-Chinese citizens.
    • ucaetano 9y ago
      That's exactly the point. Supporting privacy where it leads to more revenue, and disregarding it completely where it doesn't lead to more money is purely a business decision.
    • pgeorgi 9y ago
      So that "fundamental human right" doesn't apply to Chinese citizens?
      • luxsypher 9y ago
        welcome to china
• dingo_bat 9y ago
  Yup, privacy is a right but controlling a gadget you paid $1000 for isn't. Cool story bro.
• maxpert 9y ago
  Have used Android for years (I have been using devices like Pro, rooted, custom ROMS, skins whatever you might imagine). Shifted to Apple's echo system 2-3 years ago. It took me some time to get used to iOS but integration across devices (my mac, my iPad, my watch) is simply amazing. I am not going sound like broken record or fan boy here. Apple got me on this video where Steve Jobs really showed how much they care for privacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39iKLwlUqBo the other day my wife got a notification from Google Photos that it prepared our Album from our trip to SFO. We have turned of location tagging and everything, turns out Google is not content with me asking them to leave me alone, they would use ML and whatever they have built to figure out where I have been. In this day in age, while Apple might sound outdated to a lot of people, nothing can beat the sense of security with privacy Apple carries with itself now.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • justonepost 9y ago
    Interesting you say that. Android actually gives you control over security and privacy by telling you what your app API's get access to. iOS apps could be transmitting details back to home without your knowledge.
    • chopin 9y ago
      Wouldn't Google be in the same position? They could grant their apps privileges without your knowledge. They build the OS.
      • justonepost 9y ago
        Oh sure, but google has everything to lose for leaking personal data. Rogue app companies simply have nothing to lose
    • sjwright 9y ago
      > Android actually gives you control over security and privacy by telling you what your app API's get access to. Simply mentioning a laundry list of the myriad things an app will be permitted to do is NOT giving me control over security and privacy. http://cdn.makeuseof.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/03-Angry-Birds-Add-Permissions.png http://cdn.makeuseof.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/03-Angry... That's not control, that's bullshit. Apple got permissions right long before Android did: no third party apps have intrinsic permission to use the microphone, address book, location etc until the OS asks me on behalf of that app. And I can always say no if I want.
• aplummer 9y ago
  The privacy is great but they also really know how to sell it. The picture of the child at the top wasn't chosen at random.
• oldgun 9y ago
  The fact that protecting users' privacy becomes a marketing strategy other than the basic principals of tech companies makes me feel weird to live in 2017. Not sad. Just weird.
• forapurpose 9y ago
  I've hoped and said for awhile that Mozilla should take this approach. And while they do talk about privacy, their messaging just doesn't seem that strong and clear. Perhaps they can ride Apple's coattails to a degree, using some of the same language and messaging. Note that Apple and Mozilla both are differentiating themselves from the same competitor. (And Mozilla can add that they are open ('we develop everything in the open, so you can see what's in our products'), non-profit, and end-users have ultimate control, not Mozilla.)
• shinypotatoe 9y ago
  Isn't it the case that basically every keystroke is stored in iCloud? Hardly true privacy.
  • cJ0th 9y ago
    any source on this? that would be horrible indeed.
• forapurpose 9y ago
  Can iPhones, iPads and Macs be used anonymously - that is, without telling Apple who I am? Last time I tried to set one up, I seem to remember that either anonymity was difficult or required significant sacrifices (no software updates, or something like that).
  • wingworks 9y ago
    You don't need to have an Apple account to get system updates, but do if you want to download apps from the app store.
• OverThere 9y ago
  I miss steve...
  • Nuance 9y ago
    How is this related to the post?
• greggman 9y ago
  I love that Apple is trying to be pro privacy that said their repair policy has their employees asking for user login credientials and entering username and password into official Apple forms for the repair technician to be able to login to the computer. That seems incompatible with their privacy stance. Even a bank says to never give your PIN to a bank employee yet my login credientials give anyone who has them access to my life. password stored in browsers. private ssh keys. etc...
  • aareet 9y ago
    Isn't that actually an illustration of Apple's commitment to security and privacy? They truly cannot enter your computer without you providing your username and password - no backdoors, no special "Genius" login that works on all computers. You have to provide that information because the computer they sell you works as they promised it would - securely without backdoors.
    • greggman 9y ago
      no, it is not. do I need to spell it out? youre the sys admin for your company. your Mac breaks. are you really going to give the keys to your company to the customer service guy at apple and have them record that for any other service employ to reference? they can use a USB drive while working on the computer. they can also swap the drive. there are many other options than handing them to keys to your life do they ask for your phone unlock code? I honestly don't know but if they did it would be just as clearly bad
• nojvek 9y ago
  I still get a feeling that it’s a marketing ploy. Why would China allow Apple to operate as they wish without Apple sleeping with China. I very much feel Apple bends a couple of rules here and there for the ability to operate in non-US markets.
  • dsabanin 9y ago
    There could be other explanation also. I think it would be pretty tough to not allow Apple (the largest US company) to operate in China. At that point US government, WTO and other organizations will step in and there will be serious economic retaliation that I'm sure China doesn't want.
    • themacguffinman 9y ago
      They've just recently cracked down on WhatsApp among other Facebook services. Facebook is hardly a small player.
  • Synaesthesia 9y ago
    Yep. They also co-operate with the US government requests for information.
• couchand 9y ago
  OTOH, iOS 11 makes it harder to turn off your wifi and bluetooth radios [0], by fooling you into thinking you've done so when really they just disconnected you, so there's that. I don't think they're nearly as privacy-focused as they claim, and I'm not talking about just the marketing double-speak. [0]: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evpz7a/turn-off-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-apple-ios-11 https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/evpz7a/turn-off-w...
  • tedivm 9y ago
    I'm pretty sick of this meme. They aren't lying to people, they've just changed how the UI functions. It is still completely possible to turn off either bluetooth or wifi. The whole point of this change is to match the behavior people actually have. People tend to want to disconnect from a bluetooth device rather than completely turn off bluetooth, and a huge amount of time when people are turning off wifi it's because they have a bad connection to a single network (such as when they are walking away from their house) and they simply want to disconnect from the network they are on. This isn't some ridiculous antiprivacy conspiracy, it's just swapping menus and buttons around to give people what apple (and myself) think is a better user experience.
    • couchand 9y ago
      It seems you're unfamiliar with the litany of frequent bluetooth vulnerabilities? Not to mention the power-saving advantages of turning off wireless radios. Perhaps reversing this decision alone would allow the iPhone battery to last a full day?
      • Synaesthesia 9y ago
        Firstly, I’m not aware of any such vulnerabilities affecting iPhones, because their Bluetooth capabilities are quite sparse (no file transfers etc). Also their power management seems to be smart enough, that the power usage is quite negligible, in my experience.
        • 9y ago
• paulferrett 9y ago
  Ummm... does Darla know her private messages are being used for Apple marketing?!
• reeteshv 9y ago
  So, how many of those who support Apple are going to stop using Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, Tinder, etc.? And, start going offline to protect their data? I'm no expert but I believe that these services (individually &/or collectively) have far more detailed profiles of their users' lives than Google.
  • usaphp 9y ago
    Google has access to your current desires, things you say, search, email etc. Most of the information on twitter, LinkedIn etc is public unlike your private desires that only google knows from your search and ok google history
    • reeteshv 9y ago
      In fact, I would argue that Google has a much limited knowledge of our desires, opinions, etc. as compared to Facebook & Twitter. Yes, it tries to create a profile of who we are using the data that we provide to them while using their services. However, it is lame when you compare to the kind of detailed profile information that the other social services ask upfront, especially Facebook.
  • sjwright 9y ago
    Facebook et al know mostly about how you externalise your identity towards other people. The data they store would be well structured, but would also be limited, mostly to what you would tell your closest friends. Whereas if someone collated together all of the web searches you have performed, they would know more about your most intimate and private thoughts than any other company could. Google knows the real, embarrassing, naked you.
    • _tulpa 9y ago
      > Facebook et al know mostly about how you externalise your identity towards other people. The data they store would be well structured, but would also be limited, mostly to what you would tell your closest friends. 100% bullshit, for Facebook at least. They have user-tracking elements all over third party websites just like google does (maybe not quite as many), and if you have any of their apps on your phone (including things they own like instagram and whatsapp) then they have access to almost the same data that google does.
• vim_wannabe 9y ago
  So if I go to the store and pay with Apple Pay using my credit card, instead of directly with my credit card, my transaction history stays secure?
• toephu2 9y ago
  "Apple doesn’t gather your personal information to sell to advertisers or other organizations." Apple is taking a direct jab at Amazon, Facebook and Google. My friend who works at Facebook confirmed they actually buy shopping data from Amazon (and in fact many companies buy your credit card shopping history), and internally Facebook has a tool where you can search someone's name and see their shopping history according to the data collected from Amazon. Of course the tool is monitored and all searches are recorded. My friend only ran the search on himself, but he said it was a little shady that this tool exists.
  • skierscott 9y ago
    I work with data scientists and it’s scary how much they have access to. One first hand story: this person searched a database to find tax records for a specific individual and their income. The records were de-anonymized but there’s enough data there he could figure it out. We should design systems to preserve individual privacy. The person I heard the story from had no business in this persons tax records.
    • lostlogin 9y ago
      Can you clarify this term - “de-anonymized”? It reads like the word “anonymised” is what’s meant.
      • floatingatoll 9y ago
        "de-personalized" or "anonymized" would both work as valid interpretations in that paragraph, in case that helps you gain understanding while waiting for a reply.
      • piyush_soni 9y ago
        De-anonymising would be detecting/creating a person's identity from sets of "anonymised" information, I'd assume.
      • bigbugbag 9y ago
        anonymization is a process supposed to protect privacy by removing directly identifying information from a data set, de-anonymization is the reverse process (identifying someone in a dataset with no directly identifying information), proving that anonymization does not work. For example, let's take phone location records, just look where the phone is every night of the week and where it goes every morning and you have the home and work address of the owner which is more than enough to identify the phone owner in pretty much all cases.
• SeriousM 9y ago
  Did already everyone forgot the case where Apple insisted on the truth that they don't track you and a few weeks later one found a hidden file on the phone with the tracking info since it was bought? Apple told us that it was a mistake and removed every evidence with the next ios update. The only real privacy one can get is by not using apple, Android, Google, Facebook and so on. The others have to judge the tradeoff of having a powerful device vs. leaked privacy and being the product, not the customer.
  • LeoPanthera 9y ago
    Bugs are not the same as intentions.
    • lightbyte 9y ago
      Are you claiming a full on device tracking feature was a bug? How do you accidently implement that?
      • willstrafach 9y ago
        Are you aware of how and why that functionality worked?
• nocoder 9y ago
  This is certainly an interesting marketing angle and something that will differentiate Apple from competition. Moreover google guys cannot make this claim as their entire model is based on selling user data. I hope this brings privacy concerns into the consciousness of larger public. I also don't know if the commitment of Apple is beyond just marketing, will it be able to make the same claim in China? Maybe currently this is just a western thing.
  • guelo 9y ago
    > selling user data More precisely, they sell ad impressions to anonymized targeted audiences. The advertiser doesn't know who you are unless you tell them.
    • nocoder 9y ago
      Data anonymization is largely BS, it has been shown in the past that with enough data it is fairly easy to specifically figure out who the person is. This is how people receive highly specific and targeted ads. I know this because I have worked in advertising and it's amazing & creepy that how specific I can get in my targeting. So yes, they in reality make money by selling user data and showing them ads using that. My bigger problem here is that when I buy a mobile device by paying money, why should I have my privacy not respected.
• madshiva 9y ago
  Don't Apple have let open phone for FBI? or I'm wrong? Where is the privacy than? just a joke and you all fail in this marketing trends ?
  • dagw 9y ago
    Don't Apple have let open phone for FBI? The last time a high profile case about this came up, Apple refused and the FBI declined to push their case in court. So as it stands, no Apple doesn't have to let the FBI do anything. Furthermore Apple also claims that they made changes to their software since that case so they no longer could unlock the phone for the FBI even if they really wanted to.
    • madshiva 9y ago
      Ok. Thanks for the clarification.
      • danjoc 9y ago
        The FBI did get into the phone. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/03/fbi-breaks-iphone-and-we-have-some-questions https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/03/fbi-breaks-iphone-and-... "Privacy"
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
• napa15 9y ago
  I could maybe believe this more if my iPhone stopped asking me to enable iCloud every time I turn it on, I'm pretty sure I never ever said yes to that thing.
• cjsuk 9y ago
  This is the feature I’m paying for. And the one where it basically just works.
• Mikeb85 9y ago
  Just curious, but what's to stop them from handing over data to the US government? It's well know US companies have been forced to cooperate in the past, it's also known the NSA has collected data in secret. How do we know this isn't the case with Apple?
• Synaesthesia 9y ago
  What about PRISM? Apple has said it co-operates with law enforcement to give information about suspects. How much privacy do we really have on the web?
  • willstrafach 9y ago
    I do not think any US company can just deny a legal warrant from the FBI. They can challenge it (as Apple publicly did awhile ago though for a domestic matter rather than FISA). Not sure what more Apple themselves can do, you may want to speak with your representatives if you do not want companies to be obliged to serve data under these orders.
• ing33k 9y ago
  Android has caught up on the app permission model. but most of the apps just reject to work when you don't give access to your contacts, location, etc. but most of the apps still work on an iPhone ( bit downgraded experience ?) even if you don't grant it all the permissions.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• fgjjgutjvnu 9y ago
  Nice, but it seems to be all faith based?
• tray5 9y ago
  I wish I could afford an apple phone. As much as I love open source software, I am willing to shift over to Apple as my android manufacturer doesn't really actually care, and I hate how much access googles tentacles have into my personal life. Apple seems to actually give a shit about privacy, now if only they were affordable!
• dorkwood 9y ago
  I used the 'notes' app on my 5s for about 6 months before I realised it was secretly sending everything I typed to my Gmail account. Why is this even a feature at all, let alone a default one? Why didn't my phone notify me that this was happening? I've since disabled it (and scrubbed the emails), but it's still the biggest breach of privacy I've ever experienced on a device. I'm still not sure who to blame, either. Apple? Google? Or me, for assuming that my note-taking app wasn't secretly broadcasting all of my keystrokes online?
  • sah2ed 9y ago
    That's because you (unknowingly?) had your Notes app setup to sync with your Gmail account when you added it to your iPhone. For anyone else, to turn it off go to: Settings -> Notes -> Accounts -> <Gmail Account> -> Notes "turn off" to disable Notes syncing.
• VvR-Ox 9y ago
  It's all about the feeling and that just proves how good Apples Marketing and Branding is. I own several products myself (iphones, macbook, mac mini...) and for some time and certain tasks these devices are awesome. Nevertheless Apple is a huge company trying to get more money (like all global players). You just can't trust an entity like this and if you do you are a fool and hopefully will pay for being so naive one day. The problem is that only players like Apple can combine this beautiful design with devices that feel like high-quality products while soothing your fears with nice-made advertising lies. Nowhere else you'll get the same feeling of comfort / security etc pp and THAT IS THE REASON stuff like osmocom BB / REAL linux phones (openmoko) etc. did not have the success they'd need to develop into mature products made for real humans. So we are just oil in this big machinery to keep everything running and getting bigger every day and please don't think that anyone cares about your privacy. If you want to keep things to yourself - don't tell anyone on fckbook and don't use a damn iphone to communicate it.
• agounaris 9y ago
  You can never trust data that exist on someone else's machine. Period. Everything else is a misconception. Just try to control what you share.
  • creatonez 9y ago
    Unless end-to-end encryption is used everywhere and implemented properly. Which Apple's cloud services do not do for everything
• giancarlostoro 9y ago
  Wondering if Android Pay keeps my privacy at all. According to this Apple Pay doesn't track my buy history, but I'm not so sure whether or not Android Pay honors my privacy or not, but I'm leaning towards probably not.
• mtgx 9y ago
  I wish I was a fly on the wall at Apple's discussions with the Chinese government. Is Apple really allowed to encrypt everything and whatnot in China, or has it reached some sort of "partnership" with Chinese companies where the data goes through them first in China, like many other American companies have done. Otherwise, how is Apple "getting away" with protecting Chinese users' privacy at a time when the Chinese government is cracking down on all such things?
• a_imho 9y ago
  What is the state of contentblocking on Apple devices? Do they come with adblockers by default?
  • frou_dh 9y ago
    No, they're third party apps (e.g. https://1blocker.com/ https://1blocker.com/). But the interesting thing about these Content Blockers is that they don't actually get to inspect anything. They just hand off a list of rules in an official declarative format, which Safari itself then takes care of matching and applying.
• ksk 9y ago
  http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40404923 http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40404923 Related?
• cJ0th 9y ago
  If you care about privacy then don't ask me for my name and my birth date when I want to download a free app. (apple id)
• z0d 9y ago
  To all the advocates who think Apple's E2E Encryption key and data is only existing with the end user and believe that San Bernardino incident on Privacy related iPhone unlock. https://www.macrumors.com/2016/07/21/apple-helped-identify-kickasstorrents-owner/ https://www.macrumors.com/2016/07/21/apple-helped-identify-k... Granted both the Secure Enclave thing and the iTunes transaction logs are entirely different but essentially they all are chained together in the Apple ID which is protected by an Encryption key and the backdoor building is all that fuss was made for the PR, As usual I don't expect any consumer centric corporate to prove their idea on the privacy. It's an illusion.
• cyphunk 9y ago
  Anyone that says > "we do not give your info to 3rd parties" instead of > "we have designed it so it is impossible for us to give your info to 3rd parties" is simply selling you privacy-cool-aid
  • bluebird01 9y ago
    why do you say this? curious to know more on this insight.
    • deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    • cyphunk 9y ago
      from their language and they said that they could give FBI access to all cloud content during FBI vs Apple San Berdino Terrorist debate. This implies they have root keys to decrypt and view any service that transverses their servers, exceppt for iMessage which is the only service they have explicetly said they cannot decrypt (due to end-to-end encryption)
• zulrah 9y ago
  When I was younger I hated apple for what I thought was overpriced products, but then I realised that I was simply a product to Google. After switching to Apple I never looked back. I hope that it can keep it's standards and keep delivering good products
• cyphunk 9y ago
  The language Apple uses indicates that your personal data that apple recieves is at least at some point in clear unencrypted form, and that they then choose to encrypt it for cloud storage. The language indicates they could decrypt it if they choose. All of their statements during the San Berdeno Apple vs Gov debate a year ago clarified they had complete access to all cloud based content. There are examples of cloud like services that are able to provide online syncronization and sharing services without being able to access your data, and the language they use is very different. Examples https://send.firefox.com/ https://send.firefox.com/ https://spideroak.com/ https://spideroak.com/ https://protonmail.com/ https://protonmail.com/
• omnifischer 9y ago
  While I agree Apple is not a Ad-company and therefore have no interest in tracking, one needs to look at Apple for just more than privacy. Cherry picking does not help! 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence Why limit memory or anytype of upgrades (I am talking hardware). How does it play on the 'environment'? Look at other hn thread "Right to Repair" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15360362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15360362 1.contd. Not everyone can afford a $700 device. (second-hand phones are not always available as cheap as in SFO to other parts of the world). Even $200 is a lot for many people. (and they too need internet, whatsapp). 2. Software: Android OEMs are worst offenders, agreed. Why apple limits updates to older macs? Privacy? 3. Whether you agree or not getting trapped inside one-closed system is uncomfortable. Try editing icloud calendar from linux or windows. Oh yes, do not tell me that only OSX has privacy other OS do not. 4. I would get a iPhone the day, Apple foregoes the $1 Billion that they supposedly get from Google for putting the search. Why not offer privacy to all? Apple is famous for deciding 'what the user' should do? Why not force everyone to use 'DDG'.