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I don't get it. This focus on FaceID seems to me some successful marketing spin by Apple, and the media seem to be drinking the Coolaid (again). Face recognitio

by DCKing 9y ago

I don't get it. This focus on FaceID seems to me some successful marketing spin by Apple, and the media seem to be drinking the Coolaid (again). Face recognition in my book is not a replacement for a fingerprint reader. See I don't doubt that FaceID will be good. I don't doubt the quality Apple provides when they introduce features like this. I'm sure it will work amazingly well, because unlike almost all previous implementations Apple actually makes purposeful hardware for it. The thing is, I don't want to look at my phone to unlock it. With a fingerprint reader - on my current Xperia and my current iPhone - my phone is unlocked before it faces me. I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. Needing to face your phone to unlock it seems to just be a really weird concession to me. As others point out, it also seems to be a minor concession security wise. It seems to be some typical form-over-function Apple thing again - UX and security concessions for a better looking phone. They should've slapped a fingerprint reader on the back once it turned out the under-the-screen fingerprint reader wasn't viable. Having to go through some ritual to face your phone and slide it open to unlock feels like a hassle and a downgrade. Especially on a €1000+ phone. So yeah, the Apple distortion field is still a real thing it seems. Or maybe the way I use my phone is weird. But either way, I don't get it.

MBCook 9y ago
How is this less secure? I really don't see what's so bad. To use my phone I have to look at it. So as long as it unlocks fast enough (reportedly it does) them it's a non-issue. > I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. > I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Depending on how you're positioned this maybe an issue. > I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. If you can look at the screen from a reasonable angle then it can see you and unlock. I wish people would stop bashing this stuff 15m after it's announced in the presentation. Let's see what the security white paper says. Let's see what reviewers who have been allowed to use it say (they couldn't enroll at the event). Until then this is all straw man arguments (on both sides, my comments are based on Apple reasonably delivering what they promise).
- sillysaurus3 9y ago
  > I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. It's a mistake to underestimate the impact of small delays. Developers ruthlessly cull their editor configurations to avoid little delays here and there. A delay every time you want to use your phone sounds annoying. There are plenty of contexts I'd like to use my phone where face recognition isn't available: on a bus at night with no light, so as not to disturb others.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    I understand the pain of delays, but I'm guessing hats not an issue. Apple tends to be pretty strict about that kind of thing. > [...] on a bus at night with no light, so as not to disturb others. That's why the phone has an IR light emitter, so it can work in total darkness. The images in the presentation where the phone lit the person's face up or projected dots on it were simulations to give you an idea what it's doing, but it's all done with IR.
  - pilsetnieks 9y ago
    It supposedly works in the dark, too - it doesn't just take a picture, it projects an infrared grid on the face to scan. It would be kinda stupid to introduce a feature that may not work 50% of the time.
  - giobox 9y ago
    Its entirely IR based though, including a built in IR projector, so whether its night, or even completely pitch black, should theoretically in practice not matter at all. Given humans can't see the light from the IR projector I doubt it's going to wake anyone up either!
  - oceanswave 9y ago
    Interesting the phenomenon where although the original presentation... 1. Indicates it will recognize you in the dark (https://youtu.be/mMV_LcrZtLg?t=21m29s https://youtu.be/mMV_LcrZtLg?t=21m29s) 2. An accompanying video indicates it works in the dark (https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m47s https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m47s) 3. The Apple website indicates that "Invisible infrared light helps identify your face even when it’s dark." (https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/#face-id https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/#face-id) 4. The parent article indicates "It uses only infrared and existing light, which means it will work in darkness without any more light than is coming off of the phone’s screen." ..that seemingly knowledgable folks can be still confused. Bringing new tech to market isn't easy, but convincing folks that it's not a rehash of existing tech is hard too.
dpweb 9y ago
Valid to want to use a finger instead of face, which is a matter of preference, but reminds me of the dust up over removing headset jacks. In the end apple will lead people will follow. Clearly they see face id as the way of the future my money is on apple getting their way.
Swizec 9y ago
FWIW I can never get TouchID to work when imm running and my hands are sweaty and the phone is covered in sweat too. Typing my pin is even harder because half my taps don’t register. In those situations FaceID would be perfect.
- z6 9y ago
  That would help with the unlock step, but then how do you interact with the phone? The touchscreen wont work well as you've said putting in the pin isn't easy.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    Yeah, but doing 4 taps to change playlists or go from podcast to audiobook is a loooot easier than 4 taps + 6 tap pin + failing to touchid so you get the pin input.
brianpan 9y ago
That's because you're still thinking about unlocking, then using your phone. What you're describing is the ease of the unlock step BEFORE using your phone. The big change for me with TouchID is that now, my first thought isn't unlocking the phone. I put my thumb on the home button to USE my phone, not to UNLOCK my phone so I can use it. My guess is FaceID will be the same. You WILL be looking at the phone because you look at the phone to USE it. When you do, it will be unlocked fast enough that you don't think about unlocking (you see the screen transition, but your thoughts will be on using the phone not on the unlock that already happened).
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  Well, one use case I have is my phone sits on my desk arms reach away. I can lay my index finger on the touch id and check if I have a message. I don't have to lift my phone to use it. Not saying I can't adjust my behavior. We all have our own way of using our devices.
  - threeseed 9y ago
    This makes no sense. How can you use your phone without looking at it ? Because from what Apple has said if you can see the screen the camera will at most angles be able to authenticate you.
    - fiblye 9y ago
      Lay your phone on a table about 6 inches right of your shoulder. It's perfectly possible and easy to read and use your phone this way, but your face is completely out of the camera's field of view.
cracell 9y ago
I'm surprised to see so many people saying they will miss TouchID. I still find the idea ridiculous compared to a much more secure PIN. But I'm still using a Galaxy S3 so I'm not in the target demographic for sexy new phones. https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephsteinberg/2015/03/05/why-you-should-not-use-the-new-smartphone-fingerprint-readers/#4d6298af3a95 https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephsteinberg/2015/03/05/why-...
- masterj 9y ago
  > much more secure PIN Is it? Before touch sensors became the norm people would put in their PIN every few minutes. It would get picked up by countless security cameras. You could talk to a stranger for 2 minutes and pick up their PIN if you didn't avert your eyes. And most people didn't use a PIN at all, because it was too much bother.
- astrange 9y ago
  A PIN isn't perfectly secure; someone can watch you enter it with a security camera or can tell which buttons you pressed from the finger impressions on the screen.
  - namelost 9y ago
    Yes, the PIN is the least secure way of unlocking a phone, by a wide margin. If someone can shoulder surf while I unlock my phone with a PIN, then they can watch which buttons I press and now they can unlock my phone too. If I use the fingerprint reader to unlock, then they have no chance.
- usaphp 9y ago
  And a complex 40+ character password is much more secure than a 4-6 number pin. There is always a trade off, I personally don't want to press 7 times on my screen everytime I want to use it.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    I have a PIN that's longer than 6 digits, and it's just ingrained in muscle memory after a short time. It's not a big difference to a shorter PIN for me.
abalone 9y ago
Actually FaceID will make it faster to get into your phone. Today if you swipe on a notification, you get prompted to authenticate your fingerprint. Now that step is gone -- you just go straight in. As for opening the home screen, I think your worries are misplaced. You have to look at your phone in order to use it, and FaceID is instantaneous and works at sharp angles, so there's no need to unlock it ahead of time. All it does is replace the button press with a swipe. The early reports are that it doesn't feel like a ritual at all. It's more like it just makes the whole authentication step go away.[1] [1] "you get used to not thinking about it very quickly, and when you go back to a Touch ID device, it feels broken that you have to touch the button to unlock the device." https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_a...
amelius 9y ago
> I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Well, you can't actually have it lying flat on the table because the camera sticks out in the back :D
pvdebbe 9y ago
Also when I'm in a pitch-black room, will it shoot bright light on my face to do the ID?
- posnet 9y ago
  It's infrared. You can't see it in reality. Just marketing CGI.
  - pvdebbe 9y ago
    Oh I see -- it was mentioned in the interview. How about using it in a room with over 100F temperature. Hopefully nobody endures that sort of conditions on a regular basis anymore, use the fallback mechanisms for those situations. Except cars of course -- those without AC.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      > Hopefully nobody endures [over 38°C] on a regular basis anymore I've heard that people go outside occasionally. Don't know, why, either. :)
      - pvdebbe 9y ago
        Strange folks out there :)
aeriklawson 9y ago
I do agree that FaceID is a bit less convenient than TouchID - the "unlock while taking out of pocket" is a good example. I also agree that FaceID might be easier to "socially engineer" or obtain by force in the sense that you could just point it at someone's face or trick them into looking at it. Less so with someone's thumb on the home button. At the end of the day though, I think these concerns are overstated. No modern security method can guarantee 100% protection - you can watch someone input their PIN, steal their phone and force their face into it, or force someone to put their thumb on it. The last one is the most secure in this sense, for sure, but I'm of the opinion that if you've gotten yourself into one of these situations, this is far from your security bottleneck in the first place. Someone will inevitably bring up the point of law enforcement / 4th amendment breaches, but there are safeguards with the new iPhone X that circumvent these issues. And of course, you can always decide to just use a PIN and nothing else :)

by DCKing 9y ago

MBCook 9y ago

How is this less secure? I really don't see what's so bad. To use my phone I have to look at it. So as long as it unlocks fast enough (reportedly it does) them it's a non-issue. > I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. > I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Depending on how you're positioned this maybe an issue. > I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. If you can look at the screen from a reasonable angle then it can see you and unlock. I wish people would stop bashing this stuff 15m after it's announced in the presentation. Let's see what the security white paper says. Let's see what reviewers who have been allowed to use it say (they couldn't enroll at the event). Until then this is all straw man arguments (on both sides, my comments are based on Apple reasonably delivering what they promise).

sillysaurus3 9y ago
> I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. It's a mistake to underestimate the impact of small delays. Developers ruthlessly cull their editor configurations to avoid little delays here and there. A delay every time you want to use your phone sounds annoying. There are plenty of contexts I'd like to use my phone where face recognition isn't available: on a bus at night with no light, so as not to disturb others.
- MBCook 9y ago
  I understand the pain of delays, but I'm guessing hats not an issue. Apple tends to be pretty strict about that kind of thing. > [...] on a bus at night with no light, so as not to disturb others. That's why the phone has an IR light emitter, so it can work in total darkness. The images in the presentation where the phone lit the person's face up or projected dots on it were simulations to give you an idea what it's doing, but it's all done with IR.
- pilsetnieks 9y ago
  It supposedly works in the dark, too - it doesn't just take a picture, it projects an infrared grid on the face to scan. It would be kinda stupid to introduce a feature that may not work 50% of the time.
- giobox 9y ago
  Its entirely IR based though, including a built in IR projector, so whether its night, or even completely pitch black, should theoretically in practice not matter at all. Given humans can't see the light from the IR projector I doubt it's going to wake anyone up either!
- oceanswave 9y ago
  Interesting the phenomenon where although the original presentation... 1. Indicates it will recognize you in the dark (https://youtu.be/mMV_LcrZtLg?t=21m29s https://youtu.be/mMV_LcrZtLg?t=21m29s) 2. An accompanying video indicates it works in the dark (https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m47s https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m47s) 3. The Apple website indicates that "Invisible infrared light helps identify your face even when it’s dark." (https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/#face-id https://www.apple.com/iphone-x/#face-id) 4. The parent article indicates "It uses only infrared and existing light, which means it will work in darkness without any more light than is coming off of the phone’s screen." ..that seemingly knowledgable folks can be still confused. Bringing new tech to market isn't easy, but convincing folks that it's not a rehash of existing tech is hard too.

dpweb 9y ago

Valid to want to use a finger instead of face, which is a matter of preference, but reminds me of the dust up over removing headset jacks. In the end apple will lead people will follow. Clearly they see face id as the way of the future my money is on apple getting their way.

Swizec 9y ago

FWIW I can never get TouchID to work when imm running and my hands are sweaty and the phone is covered in sweat too. Typing my pin is even harder because half my taps don’t register. In those situations FaceID would be perfect.

z6 9y ago
That would help with the unlock step, but then how do you interact with the phone? The touchscreen wont work well as you've said putting in the pin isn't easy.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Yeah, but doing 4 taps to change playlists or go from podcast to audiobook is a loooot easier than 4 taps + 6 tap pin + failing to touchid so you get the pin input.

brianpan 9y ago

That's because you're still thinking about unlocking, then using your phone. What you're describing is the ease of the unlock step BEFORE using your phone. The big change for me with TouchID is that now, my first thought isn't unlocking the phone. I put my thumb on the home button to USE my phone, not to UNLOCK my phone so I can use it. My guess is FaceID will be the same. You WILL be looking at the phone because you look at the phone to USE it. When you do, it will be unlocked fast enough that you don't think about unlocking (you see the screen transition, but your thoughts will be on using the phone not on the unlock that already happened).

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
Well, one use case I have is my phone sits on my desk arms reach away. I can lay my index finger on the touch id and check if I have a message. I don't have to lift my phone to use it. Not saying I can't adjust my behavior. We all have our own way of using our devices.
- threeseed 9y ago
  This makes no sense. How can you use your phone without looking at it ? Because from what Apple has said if you can see the screen the camera will at most angles be able to authenticate you.
  - fiblye 9y ago
    Lay your phone on a table about 6 inches right of your shoulder. It's perfectly possible and easy to read and use your phone this way, but your face is completely out of the camera's field of view.

cracell 9y ago

I'm surprised to see so many people saying they will miss TouchID. I still find the idea ridiculous compared to a much more secure PIN. But I'm still using a Galaxy S3 so I'm not in the target demographic for sexy new phones. https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephsteinberg/2015/03/05/why-you-should-not-use-the-new-smartphone-fingerprint-readers/#4d6298af3a95 https://www.forbes.com/sites/josephsteinberg/2015/03/05/why-...

masterj 9y ago
> much more secure PIN Is it? Before touch sensors became the norm people would put in their PIN every few minutes. It would get picked up by countless security cameras. You could talk to a stranger for 2 minutes and pick up their PIN if you didn't avert your eyes. And most people didn't use a PIN at all, because it was too much bother.
astrange 9y ago
A PIN isn't perfectly secure; someone can watch you enter it with a security camera or can tell which buttons you pressed from the finger impressions on the screen.
- namelost 9y ago
  Yes, the PIN is the least secure way of unlocking a phone, by a wide margin. If someone can shoulder surf while I unlock my phone with a PIN, then they can watch which buttons I press and now they can unlock my phone too. If I use the fingerprint reader to unlock, then they have no chance.
usaphp 9y ago
And a complex 40+ character password is much more secure than a 4-6 number pin. There is always a trade off, I personally don't want to press 7 times on my screen everytime I want to use it.
- majewsky 9y ago
  I have a PIN that's longer than 6 digits, and it's just ingrained in muscle memory after a short time. It's not a big difference to a shorter PIN for me.

abalone 9y ago

Actually FaceID will make it faster to get into your phone. Today if you swipe on a notification, you get prompted to authenticate your fingerprint. Now that step is gone -- you just go straight in. As for opening the home screen, I think your worries are misplaced. You have to look at your phone in order to use it, and FaceID is instantaneous and works at sharp angles, so there's no need to unlock it ahead of time. All it does is replace the button press with a swipe. The early reports are that it doesn't feel like a ritual at all. It's more like it just makes the whole authentication step go away.[1] [1] "you get used to not thinking about it very quickly, and when you go back to a Touch ID device, it feels broken that you have to touch the button to unlock the device." https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_a...

amelius 9y ago

> I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Well, you can't actually have it lying flat on the table because the camera sticks out in the back :D

pvdebbe 9y ago

Also when I'm in a pitch-black room, will it shoot bright light on my face to do the ID?

posnet 9y ago
It's infrared. You can't see it in reality. Just marketing CGI.
- pvdebbe 9y ago
  Oh I see -- it was mentioned in the interview. How about using it in a room with over 100F temperature. Hopefully nobody endures that sort of conditions on a regular basis anymore, use the fallback mechanisms for those situations. Except cars of course -- those without AC.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    > Hopefully nobody endures [over 38°C] on a regular basis anymore I've heard that people go outside occasionally. Don't know, why, either. :)
    - pvdebbe 9y ago
      Strange folks out there :)

aeriklawson 9y ago

I do agree that FaceID is a bit less convenient than TouchID - the "unlock while taking out of pocket" is a good example. I also agree that FaceID might be easier to "socially engineer" or obtain by force in the sense that you could just point it at someone's face or trick them into looking at it. Less so with someone's thumb on the home button. At the end of the day though, I think these concerns are overstated. No modern security method can guarantee 100% protection - you can watch someone input their PIN, steal their phone and force their face into it, or force someone to put their thumb on it. The last one is the most secure in this sense, for sure, but I'm of the opinion that if you've gotten yourself into one of these situations, this is far from your security bottleneck in the first place. Someone will inevitably bring up the point of law enforcement / 4th amendment breaches, but there are safeguards with the new iPhone X that circumvent these issues. And of course, you can always decide to just use a PIN and nothing else :)