18 ms·

Interview: Apple’s Craig Federighi about Face ID

160 points by craigkerstiens 9y ago

minimaxir 9y ago
A relevant note from the interview is official confirmation that the 5-presses-of-sleep/wake-disables-Touch-ID is intended as a privacy move. (and adds new info that the iPhone 8 has an easier squeeze-only trigger for this feature.)
- satysin 9y ago
  I only had a quick skim of the article so maybe I missed it but is there a quick disable for Face ID like there is for Touch ID? Can law enforcement just hold the phone up to your face and unlock it? We all know Touch ID is not protected under the 5th Amendment so I am going to assume Face ID is not either.
  - redbergy 9y ago
    The article said you'll be able to use the new method (hold sleep/wake and volume button for 5 seconds to require a passcode to unlock – i.e. disabling face/touch id).
    - satysin 9y ago
      Thank you! Figured I had missed it skim reading on mobile :)
  - glhaynes 9y ago
    Aside from being able to disable Face ID by squeezing the side buttons, it apparently disables and requires a passcode after 2 failures (compared to 5 for Touch ID). It's not clear yet to me what counts as a failure, though: if someone gets the phone before you can squeeze it then holds it up to your face but you don't look at the phone (Face ID is said to "require your attention" to unlock), does that count as a failure? EDIT: Apparently both Touch ID and Face ID disable after 5 failures — https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthentication/lapolicy/1622327-deviceownerauthenticationwithbio https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthenticatio...
- redbergy 9y ago
  Slight correction – it's 5 presses of the lock/sleep button not 5 presses of the home button.
  - minimaxir 9y ago
    Whoops, fixed
usaphp 9y ago
> “On older phones the sequence was to click 5 times [on the power button] but on newer phones like iPhone 8 and iPhone X, if you grip the side buttons on either side and hold them a little while – we’ll take you to the power down [screen]. But that also has the effect of disabling Face ID,” says Federighi. “So, if you were in a case where the thief was asking to hand over your phone – you can just reach into your pocket, squeeze it, and it will disable Face ID. It will do the same thing on iPhone 8 to disable Touch ID.” Interesting. I did not know that
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- saagarjha 9y ago
  It’s a new feature in iOS 11.
favorited 9y ago
I assumed this was a link to Conan's sketch. Gruber pointed out how surprising it is "that Federighi is famous enough to spoof." http://www.loopinsight.com/2017/09/14/craig-federighi-on-conan/ http://www.loopinsight.com/2017/09/14/craig-federighi-on-con...
- jkolyer 9y ago
  Federighi has been with Apple/NeXT for at least 27 years. I worked with him in 1996.
  - interlocutor 9y ago
    Not true. He was at Oracle around 1992 where he worked on "druid" user interface builder, then he went to NeXT where we worked on WebObjects then he went to Ariba where he was CTO, then to Apple. (Source: I worked alongside him in the early 90's.)
    - favorited 9y ago
      Wil Shipley had a pretty good write up of Craig's Apple history, going back to meeting him at NeXT. Obviously it's just Wil's opinions, but an interesting read nonetheless. http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/03/celebrating-betrand-serlet-and-craig.html http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/03/celebrating-betrand-serle...
- MBCook 9y ago
  Me too. Both are great.
wyc 9y ago
> So, if you were in a case where the thief was asking to hand over your phone – you can just reach into your pocket, squeeze it, and it will disable Face ID. It will do the same thing on iPhone 8 to disable Touch ID. I imagine that authorities will catch on pretty quickly: "keep your hands up and away from your pockets while we retrieve your device." It would have to happen before any kind of duress.
- slg 9y ago
  Yeah, police won't have any problem with people quickly reaching into their pockets to grab an unknown object. I can't see how that might go badly.
  - valuearb 9y ago
    You are worried about police shooting you after ASKING you to get your phone out of your pocket, but only when you are disabling it's Face ID? How do they know you've disabled Face ID?
    - malloci 9y ago
      I suspect, in most cases, the police will ask you which pocket your phone is in and fish it out themselves...
- nsxwolf 9y ago
  They should have added facial gestures that disable the feature. Like wrinkle your nose or something.
  - alwillis 9y ago
    Face ID doesn't work if your eyes are closed. Sure, there are situations where that won't be tolerated, but it's a start.
    - spullara 9y ago
mthoms 9y ago
I'm wondering whether Apple sees this technology totally replacing TouchID, or if they will continue to offer it in the next 3-5 years on some devices?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- stillmotion 9y ago
  Word on the street was that they were planning on including both TouchID and FaceID in the X, but scrapped it earlier this year due to low yields during mass production[0]. [0] https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/12/apple-struggling-with-touch-id-under-display/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/12/apple-struggling-with-t...
  - MBCook 9y ago
    Which is contradicted by this interview as well as discussions John Gruber has had with some of his sources.
- Helloworldboy 9y ago
  Given the rumors that they were trying to embed it into the screen, my guess is that 11 will had both FaceID and screen embedded TouchID
  - MBCook 9y ago
    If this works well enough, is there a point to going through all that trouble and expense?
    - twblalock 9y ago
      Sure, because facial recognition has many applications outside of unlocking your phone, including the trivial ones like Animoji and the new selfie features that were demoed at the Apple event.
sigmar 9y ago
The comments about the "attention" detail make it sound like they have tested this extensively with diverse groups. But I've wondered if they had anyone "red team" to see if they could fool it. Faces are less private than fingerprints, and I imagine the police would jump to buy a tool that can unlock phones. Statistics about the false-positive rate are mostly meaningless in an adversarial case. Maybe it is mentioned in the forthcoming white paper.
- lsadam0 9y ago
  Of course they did. This was even briefly touched on in the announcement demo.
  - macintux 9y ago
    The photo of the masks they had Hollywood make for them for testing was quite memorable.
- naravara 9y ago
  >But I've wondered if they had anyone "red team" to see if they could fool it. It would be a phenomenal oversight on their part if they failed to do this. As in, the only reason I wouldn't deem it criminal negligence would be because the legal bar for that WRT people's personal data is so low.
  - ianamartin 9y ago
    Criminal negligence if Apple fails to do it. Par for the course if Samsung doesn't do it.
- Osmium 9y ago
  > Faces are less private than fingerprints Possibly, but it's also easy to pick up someone's fingerprint from anything they've touched after the fact. With faces, you have to actively record/3D scan someone. It's not clear whether e.g. security cam footage will be sufficient fidelity to reconstruct a 3D face in enough detail, but this will be interesting to find out. In case anyone missed it, Apple claimed false positive rates for Touch ID were 1 in 50,000 and for Face ID were 1 in 1,000,000. > Statistics about the false-positive rate are mostly meaningless in an adversarial case. I imagine what those special effect masks were for, to test for the adversarial case. I also imagine that's why there's an IR camera too -- I'm not sure what wavelength of IR this is, but it seems distinct from the depth mapping, and would be more difficult to fool on a mask.
kibwen 9y ago
Quoted bullet points FTA: - If you haven’t used Face ID in 48 hours, or if you’ve just rebooted, it will ask for a passcode. - If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID, it will default back to passcode. (Federighi has confirmed that this is what happened in the demo onstage when he was asked for a passcode — it tried to read the people setting the phones up on the podium.) - Developers do not have access to raw sensor data from the Face ID array. Instead, they’re given a depth map they can use for applications like the Snap face filters shown onstage. This can also be used in ARKit applications. - You’ll also get a passcode request if you haven’t unlocked the phone using a passcode or at all in 6.5 days and if Face ID hasn’t unlocked it in 4 hours. Lots of people in the threads here yesterday seemed to misunderstand how these things are implemented. Importantly, you cannot set up FaceID without first setting up a password (biometrics are a carrot for getting users to set up passwords, not intended to subsume passwords), and you'll still be prompted for a passcode around once a week so you won't go forgetting it.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  This is the same as Touch ID with the exception of the 4 hour rule and that you cannot get any data from the fingerprint sensor at all directly.
  - eridius 9y ago
    Touch ID had the same 4 hour rule. Note that the 4 hours time limit only comes into play if it's been 6.5 days since you last used your passcode. The full rule ensures that you need your passcode approximately once a week, and the 4 hour thing basically just means you won't be surprised with a passcode request 5 minutes after you successfully unlocked it with your face.
- glhaynes 9y ago
  - If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID… This is what the article says, but it's also been reported to take just 2 failures with Face ID before requiring a passcode (as opposed to 5 with Touch ID). I can't remember now if that was said by Apple directly on Tuesday, but I've seen the "2" figure reported several places, so I'm not certain which is right. EDIT: It's apparently been clarified to be 5 on both Touch ID and Face ID — https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthentication/lapolicy/1622327-deviceownerauthenticationwithbio https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthenticatio...
randyrand 9y ago
How to hack FaceID: You'll need: 1. 2 phones (at least 1 with an IR camera, such as another Iphone X) 2. a helper app 3. access to 10+ photos of the victim (Facebook typically) 4. a small mirror With the helper app: 1. capture the suspect's phone's unique IR dot pattern by shining their phone at white piece of paper, recording it with the helper app (the helper phone needs an IR camera of course, such as another Iphone X) 2. makes 3d model of persons face from the FB pictures 3. generates 2 animated videos of their face, 1 just a normal color video and another with the dot pattern applied 4. now you need to show the 2 videos to FaceID, using the mirror to show the correct video the the corresponding camera
- tspike 9y ago
  They tested it against lifelike face masks, I doubt that would work, fortunately. They mentioned an IR camera, wouldn't be surprised if they're checking temperature as well.
  - randyrand 9y ago
    People misunderstood what the static face masks were for. The static face masks were not for testing against a face-mask attack. They were for testing FaceID. As far as testing goes, the mask was assumed to be a stand-in for the real person.
    - macintux 9y ago
      Citation?
      - randyrand 9y ago
        2 years of work experience with Primesense 3d cameras. I'm well aware of what they are capable of. That said, they could use the color video feed to require subtle eye movements which would make this attack harder.
      - wiremine 9y ago
        Yeah, that's doesn't seem to jive with how they described it on stage...
mithr 9y ago
> Developers ... [are] given a depth map they can use for applications ... This can also be used in ARKit applications. This has me very excited. ARKit already does an impressive job of tracking as you move around your environment, and the major thing that seems lacking is being able to map existing objects to know where they are in relation to virtual ones. If they do this well, especially when it comes to automatically obfuscating virtual objects with real ones, it could allow ARKit to be used for creating much more immersive experiences.
thinbeige 9y ago
Very good interview. It shows that this feature is well thought-out and security-wise better than expected.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Given how well the implemented TouchID a few years ago I'm not surprised. I don't remember seeing any major criticism of TouchID, just amsome praise from security folk for how well thought out the implementation was.
  - davidcbc 9y ago
    TouchID had a much lower bar to clear, just be better than a pin or password. FaceID has to be at least as good as TouchID or it is a step back for the iPhone.
DCKing 9y ago
I don't get it. This focus on FaceID seems to me some successful marketing spin by Apple, and the media seem to be drinking the Coolaid (again). Face recognition in my book is not a replacement for a fingerprint reader. See I don't doubt that FaceID will be good. I don't doubt the quality Apple provides when they introduce features like this. I'm sure it will work amazingly well, because unlike almost all previous implementations Apple actually makes purposeful hardware for it. The thing is, I don't want to look at my phone to unlock it. With a fingerprint reader - on my current Xperia and my current iPhone - my phone is unlocked before it faces me. I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. Needing to face your phone to unlock it seems to just be a really weird concession to me. As others point out, it also seems to be a minor concession security wise. It seems to be some typical form-over-function Apple thing again - UX and security concessions for a better looking phone. They should've slapped a fingerprint reader on the back once it turned out the under-the-screen fingerprint reader wasn't viable. Having to go through some ritual to face your phone and slide it open to unlock feels like a hassle and a downgrade. Especially on a €1000+ phone. So yeah, the Apple distortion field is still a real thing it seems. Or maybe the way I use my phone is weird. But either way, I don't get it.
- MBCook 9y ago
  How is this less secure? I really don't see what's so bad. To use my phone I have to look at it. So as long as it unlocks fast enough (reportedly it does) them it's a non-issue. > I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. > I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Depending on how you're positioned this maybe an issue. > I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. If you can look at the screen from a reasonable angle then it can see you and unlock. I wish people would stop bashing this stuff 15m after it's announced in the presentation. Let's see what the security white paper says. Let's see what reviewers who have been allowed to use it say (they couldn't enroll at the event). Until then this is all straw man arguments (on both sides, my comments are based on Apple reasonably delivering what they promise).
  - 9y ago
noncoml 9y ago
My understanding is that FaceID and TouchID are more of convenience features than security features, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Shouldn't one just disable both of them and use a long passlock code if they are serious about security?
- MBCook 9y ago
  Yep. They are designed to be more secure than no password or a simple 4 (now 6) digit PIN. Troy Hunt's article that was posted in the last two days had a very balanced view of it.
- valuearb 9y ago
  You'd have to be super serious about security to disable either of them. If you are a high ranking government official, or super secret spy, maybe. Because with FaceID they can't spoof it with a photo, they can't break into the secure enclave to get your facial map data, and even if they are able to take a high resolution 3D photo of your face and build an identical mask to your face, it probably won't work. This and TouchID are the most secure authorization features ever created, because 100% of people will use them,, and less than 1% will create long passcodes.
- z6 9y ago
  The problem with the pin is that you can easily see people entering them, and then you can easily get in. With TouchID and FaceID that part is a lot more difficult.
fish_fan 9y ago
Wow, so the facial recognition is both used and trained in the secure enclave. Imagine a future where you could root your phone by showing it a picture of an artfully encoded payload printed on paper.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Come to think of it, that would make a great movie plot. "It turns out an engineer hid a backdoor in the phone. You can unlock anyone's phone if you can just show it The Macguffin. But now he's died and the world is about to be blown up and we need to figure out what was on his phone before it's too late. We only have 36 hours left to find The Macguffin and unlock his phone before FaceID won't work; his 75 character password is totally unguessable." Hollywood? Get in touch.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
makecheck 9y ago
What I worry about is drivers. Texting while driving has been illegal in multiple places for years but to this day it is downright easy to find an example of someone still doing it. Now imagine these fools deciding to turn away and look because their phone is not unlocking otherwise...
- sushisource 9y ago
  This is a great point, and probably way more impactful than anything else mentioned in this thread. People will continue to be shitheads and use their phone while driving, that's inevitable, and this could make that even more distracting. Now they've got to take their eyes off the road for a second, or fumble with holding the phone above the wheel.
  - stuartd 9y ago
    If you're going to use your phone while driving, then you're going to have to look at it to do so. How you unlock it is irrelevant.
    - secabeen 9y ago
      Not necessarily. I've been in a classroom, opened my phone with the fingerprint sensor, written a reply to an IM I just received, glanced down to confirm that auto-correct got my language right, and hit send. It's not that frequent, but I have done it.
- oceanswave 9y ago
  Interesting that they've tried to tackle this too: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/30/ios-11-do-not-disturb-while-driving/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/30/ios-11-do-not-disturb-w...
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
Its simply astounding that so many people are drinking the Apple kool-aid. The avalanche of complaints that will be unleashed after the release of this phone will be massive and sudden. If you think that this tech will work as flawlessly and without trouble as Apple claims, I have some bridges to sell you in Houston.
- whipoodle 9y ago
  Oh, stop.
- valuearb 9y ago
  Yep, just like TouchID! Wait, TouchID worked great! You're a loon!
shams93 9y ago
Law enforcement don't have to guess which of your 10 fingers you used for touch id, they don't need your consent to handcuff you and then point the phone at your face to get into your personal info. With touch if they have to get you to do something you comply it's your fingers with this it seems much easier for authoritarians to abuse.
- adamsea 9y ago
  Authoritarians can abuse it all with equal ease.
- eric_h 9y ago
  But it won't work if your eyes are closed, or not looking at the screen. All it takes is 5 fails, and then your face is no longer an authentication token.
  - ajanuary 9y ago
    I haven't seen anything that explains what constitutes a failure. It seems plausible no eye contact wouldn't constitute a failure. It also seems plausible it would, but they may have to be more relaxed about what constitutes an "attempt" as looking at the phone is less definite than placing a finger on the sensor.
- GeekyBear 9y ago
  Law enforcement would have to get a warrant first, according to a 2014 Supreme Court decision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California Border agents operate under more permissive rules, although a recently filed lawsuit is seeking to change that as well. https://www.eff.org/press/releases/border-agents-need-warrant-search-travelers-phones-eff-tells-court https://www.eff.org/press/releases/border-agents-need-warran...
dhanh 9y ago
Can Face ID feature still work in outdoor environment, specially under sunlight?
- matthewmacleod 9y ago
  I think we can all be fairly confident that a key feature in Apple's flagship new phone will work in sunlight, yes.
  - eric_h 9y ago
    I'm not sure if the weather in California really provides enough sunlight for sufficient testing...
    - oceanswave 9y ago
      There's sunlight in California? Good gravy I need to get out more.
- valuearb 9y ago
  It would be cool if the article addressed questions like this.
- Tempest1981 9y ago
  It's a reasonable question -- the relative brightness of the sun vs the phone's IR emitter. (Not deserving of a downvote, imo)
- dhanh 9y ago
  I asked this question because as I know, some devices that use similar technology with IR emitter and IR camera don't work in sunlight. They're Microsoft Kinect, Intel Realsense, Leapmotion... That happens because sunlight is a bigger IR source that overlap on IR light from IR Emitter, then makes the IR camera cannot get the correct dot images.
  - speedplane 9y ago
jpalomaki 9y ago
Can't help thinking Face ID is something Apple had to do, not something they really wanted. Reading fingerprint with/through the touch screen [1] sounds a better alternative if they ever get it working well enough. [1] https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/2/14/14615228/apple-fingerprint-reader-patent-touch-id-smartphone-screen https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/20...
- designcode 9y ago
  Fingerprint login is a pain. Still has lots of times when it doesn’t work. Rather just not have to do anything to get into the phone !
- rahoulb 9y ago
  I remember having to force myself to set a PIN because it got in the way. I'm sure the idea of a phone that doesn't need any intervention to unlock it has always been the plan.
jccalhoun 9y ago
I wonder if they licensed any tech from Microsoft because faceid seems to work a lot like Windows Hello
blackflame7000 9y ago
How did Apple get consent from a billion people to use their likeness in their training set of images? Is it possible to train a facial recognition software acurately using different photos of the same person VS different people all together?
- usaphp 9y ago
  He said "billion images" not "billion people".
  - blackflame7000 9y ago
    Refer to my second question
  - darknet7 9y ago
    A billion images of the same person would be worthless.
  - blackflame7000 9y ago
    Everyone who downvoted totally missed the point, that stating you trained with a billion images is a useless statistic. If i trained with a billion images of a firehydrant how does that help me distinguish a lamp post? For all we know it could have been 100 pictures of 10000 people. But yea, totally worth the negative 5 karma for some reason.
idlewords 9y ago
I trust Apple's security team to have implemented this in a way that preserves safety and privacy. Apple have shown themselves to be very good at that. That said, I find Face ID extraordinarily troubling, because it normalizes the idea that your phone actively scans your facial features during use. Just like carrying around an always-on pocket beacon became part of the 'new normal' with the introduction of the smartphone, a phone that looks back at you during use will become part of the new normal, too. When you combine this with business models that rely not just on advertising, but on promises to investors around novelty in advertising, and machine learning that has proven extremely effective at provoking user engagement, what you end up with is a mobile sensor that can read second-by-second facial expressions and adjust what is being shown in real time with great sophistication. All that's required is for a company to close the loop between facial sensor and server. Apple is unlikely to be this company. But Google, Facebook and Amazon are. What I anticipate is the next generation of Home and Echo to have cameras (Amazon is already moving in this direction), along with whatever piece of hardware Facebook produces. The idea of devices that look back at you will gain acceptance, just like always-listening voice assistants have gained acceptance. All of these will become input sources to learning algorithms. What is already an incredibly potent toolchain for political manipulation will become even more powerful, with no oversight, accountability, or even much understanding by those who built it on the way it can be profitably used and misused. Its effects will be field-tested in democratic elections that affect the lives of billions. This is what Zeynep Tufekci has called the architecture for networked fascism, and by manufacturing a mass-market device with active facial scanning, with the best of intentions, Apple has moved us a big step further along this dismal road.
- mahyarm 9y ago
  Just because apple did it better, doesn't mean they did it first or enabled it. Android has had face unlock for years and the S8 added 'iris unlock' also. They all have problems, since flat images defeat them compared to this more advanced version, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be improved later. The tech is out of bag and apple not doing it would just delay it by a few years. Managing a world where microphones and worse are everywhere and are being used by autocracy is how we should be acting going forward. Accepting that this is the world and dealing with the changes should be the focus, not trying to prevent tech that will be created whether or not some people like it. edit: I do agree with your tweet about how it changes social norms although.
limeblack 9y ago
[removed]
- mikestew 9y ago
  I do not know how this works "...but that won't keep me from commenting." The answer you seek is in the article that you didn't read.
- oceanswave 9y ago
  The point of the parent article is to describe how it works in depth, with a technical paper coming soon. Here's a marketing video that might help: https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m12s https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m12s
late2part 9y ago
I was raised that MFA = something you have and something you know. Your face and your fingerprint are the former. They're not passwords.
kiliankoe 9y ago
How would FaceID be used to authenticate In-App-Purchases? Currently it's a finger on the home button, but I'd be somewhat scared if looking at the screen is all that's necessary to confirm a purchase. I'm pretty sure a second confirmation will be used, but I'm curious.
- gls2ro 9y ago
  From a pure statistical comparison (as also presented in the keynote) your face is more unique than your fingerprint in normal situation. When talking about edge cases (like someone trying very hard to rob you) then both of them have their own drawbacks. So from this points of view I don't see any major difference betweeen them. If you trust TouchId then you can trust FaceId in the sense of correctly indentifying while paying that YOU are the one who is authorizing the payment. I don't think there will be another confirmation other than the payment Flow implemented by the apps.
  - kiliankoe 9y ago
    That's not what I meant. I'm interested in the UX. When I accidentally click to purchase an IAP currently, nothing happens until I actually confirm it with TouchID. With FaceID it could presumably already have confirmed the purchase because I looked at the screen too long.
    - dpkonofa 9y ago
      If it works anything like Apple Pay, you'll be required to push the side button to confirm a purchase. The Face ID piece will simply authorize you but there's still an action required to make the purchase.
    - majewsky 9y ago
      Sounds like an awesome new income stream for shady mobile game developers.
ksk 9y ago
It will be interesting to see what developers can do with the sensor, especially for AR. I wonder if you could stick two iphones together back to back and have one "see" the world in 3D and have the other augment it in some way.
xz0r 9y ago
> If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID, it will default back to passcode. (Federighi has confirmed that this is what happened in the demo onstage when he was asked for a passcode — it tried to read the people setting the phones up on the podium.) Well, on the demo onstage, he did not enter the passcode after being asked for it. He just said "Let me try that again". Is it just a cover up?
- rahoulb 9y ago
  He tried again then said let's switch to a backup - so a different phone?
  - xz0r 9y ago
    Yeah you're right. I missed that.
jafingi 9y ago
The thing I'm really looking forward to with Face ID is when apps are using it. Fine for unlocking the phone, but think about it. Right now, if you access your bank, Dropbox, 1Password etc. you open the app, wait for the Touch ID dialog to appear, then move your finger from the screen (where it was) and to the Touch ID to authorize. With Face ID; just open the app, and you're authorized. This is a HUGE thing in regards of usability. I love it.
pmontra 9y ago
I can unlock my phone with my fingerprints in the dark (example, at bed during the night). Do I have to turn on the light to use FaceID or do I have to type in a PIN instead? That would be progress /sarcasm. I could also unlock my phone and my tablet with my face (don't remember how Sony and Samsung call that method) but it means that I have to point their cameras to me. Maybe it's me but their cameras tend to point to the ceiling when I'm holding them. Fingerprints are faster. Even the swipe pattern on the tablet is faster. FaceID is probably more about the current impossibility of adding the fingerprint sensor to the bezelless and thin iPhone X. I expect Apple to solve that at the next iteration. FaceID would stay and be useful for some purposes, but people will be back at unlocking iPhones with their fingers.
- Drakklor 9y ago
  No, it uses infrared so you do not need to turn on the lights According to the leak from last week it should be able to unlock even if laying flat on a table.
ssijak 9y ago
Security wise, maybe they could implement a feature where if you look at the phone with a recorded grimace (one eye closed, or blinking fast or raised eyebrows etc etc) it would disable faceid. So if someone wants to force you to unlock it you just comply and make a face
gnicholas 9y ago
Interesting to see accessibility (for vision-impaired users) pop up here. Good to see that Apple thought about that and came up with something. I wonder if enabling the accessibility mode will result in haptic feedback that the device was unlocked.

A relevant note from the interview is official confirmation that the 5-presses-of-sleep/wake-disables-Touch-ID is intended as a privacy move. (and adds new info that the iPhone 8 has an easier squeeze-only trigger for this feature.)

satysin 9y ago
I only had a quick skim of the article so maybe I missed it but is there a quick disable for Face ID like there is for Touch ID? Can law enforcement just hold the phone up to your face and unlock it? We all know Touch ID is not protected under the 5th Amendment so I am going to assume Face ID is not either.
- redbergy 9y ago
  The article said you'll be able to use the new method (hold sleep/wake and volume button for 5 seconds to require a passcode to unlock – i.e. disabling face/touch id).
  - satysin 9y ago
    Thank you! Figured I had missed it skim reading on mobile :)
- glhaynes 9y ago
  Aside from being able to disable Face ID by squeezing the side buttons, it apparently disables and requires a passcode after 2 failures (compared to 5 for Touch ID). It's not clear yet to me what counts as a failure, though: if someone gets the phone before you can squeeze it then holds it up to your face but you don't look at the phone (Face ID is said to "require your attention" to unlock), does that count as a failure? EDIT: Apparently both Touch ID and Face ID disable after 5 failures — https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthentication/lapolicy/1622327-deviceownerauthenticationwithbio https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthenticatio...
redbergy 9y ago
Slight correction – it's 5 presses of the lock/sleep button not 5 presses of the home button.
- minimaxir 9y ago
  Whoops, fixed

usaphp 9y ago

> “On older phones the sequence was to click 5 times [on the power button] but on newer phones like iPhone 8 and iPhone X, if you grip the side buttons on either side and hold them a little while – we’ll take you to the power down [screen]. But that also has the effect of disabling Face ID,” says Federighi. “So, if you were in a case where the thief was asking to hand over your phone – you can just reach into your pocket, squeeze it, and it will disable Face ID. It will do the same thing on iPhone 8 to disable Touch ID.” Interesting. I did not know that

deleted 9y ago
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saagarjha 9y ago
It’s a new feature in iOS 11.

favorited 9y ago

I assumed this was a link to Conan's sketch. Gruber pointed out how surprising it is "that Federighi is famous enough to spoof." http://www.loopinsight.com/2017/09/14/craig-federighi-on-conan/ http://www.loopinsight.com/2017/09/14/craig-federighi-on-con...

jkolyer 9y ago
Federighi has been with Apple/NeXT for at least 27 years. I worked with him in 1996.
- interlocutor 9y ago
  Not true. He was at Oracle around 1992 where he worked on "druid" user interface builder, then he went to NeXT where we worked on WebObjects then he went to Ariba where he was CTO, then to Apple. (Source: I worked alongside him in the early 90's.)
  - favorited 9y ago
    Wil Shipley had a pretty good write up of Craig's Apple history, going back to meeting him at NeXT. Obviously it's just Wil's opinions, but an interesting read nonetheless. http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/03/celebrating-betrand-serlet-and-craig.html http://blog.wilshipley.com/2011/03/celebrating-betrand-serle...
MBCook 9y ago
Me too. Both are great.

wyc 9y ago

> So, if you were in a case where the thief was asking to hand over your phone – you can just reach into your pocket, squeeze it, and it will disable Face ID. It will do the same thing on iPhone 8 to disable Touch ID. I imagine that authorities will catch on pretty quickly: "keep your hands up and away from your pockets while we retrieve your device." It would have to happen before any kind of duress.

slg 9y ago
Yeah, police won't have any problem with people quickly reaching into their pockets to grab an unknown object. I can't see how that might go badly.
- valuearb 9y ago
  You are worried about police shooting you after ASKING you to get your phone out of your pocket, but only when you are disabling it's Face ID? How do they know you've disabled Face ID?
  - malloci 9y ago
    I suspect, in most cases, the police will ask you which pocket your phone is in and fish it out themselves...
nsxwolf 9y ago
They should have added facial gestures that disable the feature. Like wrinkle your nose or something.
- alwillis 9y ago
  Face ID doesn't work if your eyes are closed. Sure, there are situations where that won't be tolerated, but it's a start.
  - spullara 9y ago

mthoms 9y ago

I'm wondering whether Apple sees this technology totally replacing TouchID, or if they will continue to offer it in the next 3-5 years on some devices?

deleted 9y ago
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stillmotion 9y ago
Word on the street was that they were planning on including both TouchID and FaceID in the X, but scrapped it earlier this year due to low yields during mass production[0]. [0] https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/12/apple-struggling-with-touch-id-under-display/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/12/apple-struggling-with-t...
- MBCook 9y ago
  Which is contradicted by this interview as well as discussions John Gruber has had with some of his sources.
Helloworldboy 9y ago
Given the rumors that they were trying to embed it into the screen, my guess is that 11 will had both FaceID and screen embedded TouchID
- MBCook 9y ago
  If this works well enough, is there a point to going through all that trouble and expense?
  - twblalock 9y ago
    Sure, because facial recognition has many applications outside of unlocking your phone, including the trivial ones like Animoji and the new selfie features that were demoed at the Apple event.

sigmar 9y ago

The comments about the "attention" detail make it sound like they have tested this extensively with diverse groups. But I've wondered if they had anyone "red team" to see if they could fool it. Faces are less private than fingerprints, and I imagine the police would jump to buy a tool that can unlock phones. Statistics about the false-positive rate are mostly meaningless in an adversarial case. Maybe it is mentioned in the forthcoming white paper.

lsadam0 9y ago
Of course they did. This was even briefly touched on in the announcement demo.
- macintux 9y ago
  The photo of the masks they had Hollywood make for them for testing was quite memorable.
naravara 9y ago
>But I've wondered if they had anyone "red team" to see if they could fool it. It would be a phenomenal oversight on their part if they failed to do this. As in, the only reason I wouldn't deem it criminal negligence would be because the legal bar for that WRT people's personal data is so low.
- ianamartin 9y ago
  Criminal negligence if Apple fails to do it. Par for the course if Samsung doesn't do it.
Osmium 9y ago
> Faces are less private than fingerprints Possibly, but it's also easy to pick up someone's fingerprint from anything they've touched after the fact. With faces, you have to actively record/3D scan someone. It's not clear whether e.g. security cam footage will be sufficient fidelity to reconstruct a 3D face in enough detail, but this will be interesting to find out. In case anyone missed it, Apple claimed false positive rates for Touch ID were 1 in 50,000 and for Face ID were 1 in 1,000,000. > Statistics about the false-positive rate are mostly meaningless in an adversarial case. I imagine what those special effect masks were for, to test for the adversarial case. I also imagine that's why there's an IR camera too -- I'm not sure what wavelength of IR this is, but it seems distinct from the depth mapping, and would be more difficult to fool on a mask.

kibwen 9y ago

Quoted bullet points FTA: - If you haven’t used Face ID in 48 hours, or if you’ve just rebooted, it will ask for a passcode. - If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID, it will default back to passcode. (Federighi has confirmed that this is what happened in the demo onstage when he was asked for a passcode — it tried to read the people setting the phones up on the podium.) - Developers do not have access to raw sensor data from the Face ID array. Instead, they’re given a depth map they can use for applications like the Snap face filters shown onstage. This can also be used in ARKit applications. - You’ll also get a passcode request if you haven’t unlocked the phone using a passcode or at all in 6.5 days and if Face ID hasn’t unlocked it in 4 hours. Lots of people in the threads here yesterday seemed to misunderstand how these things are implemented. Importantly, you cannot set up FaceID without first setting up a password (biometrics are a carrot for getting users to set up passwords, not intended to subsume passwords), and you'll still be prompted for a passcode around once a week so you won't go forgetting it.

dogma1138 9y ago
This is the same as Touch ID with the exception of the 4 hour rule and that you cannot get any data from the fingerprint sensor at all directly.
- eridius 9y ago
  Touch ID had the same 4 hour rule. Note that the 4 hours time limit only comes into play if it's been 6.5 days since you last used your passcode. The full rule ensures that you need your passcode approximately once a week, and the 4 hour thing basically just means you won't be surprised with a passcode request 5 minutes after you successfully unlocked it with your face.
glhaynes 9y ago
- If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID… This is what the article says, but it's also been reported to take just 2 failures with Face ID before requiring a passcode (as opposed to 5 with Touch ID). I can't remember now if that was said by Apple directly on Tuesday, but I've seen the "2" figure reported several places, so I'm not certain which is right. EDIT: It's apparently been clarified to be 5 on both Touch ID and Face ID — https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthentication/lapolicy/1622327-deviceownerauthenticationwithbio https://developer.apple.com/documentation/localauthenticatio...

randyrand 9y ago

How to hack FaceID: You'll need: 1. 2 phones (at least 1 with an IR camera, such as another Iphone X) 2. a helper app 3. access to 10+ photos of the victim (Facebook typically) 4. a small mirror With the helper app: 1. capture the suspect's phone's unique IR dot pattern by shining their phone at white piece of paper, recording it with the helper app (the helper phone needs an IR camera of course, such as another Iphone X) 2. makes 3d model of persons face from the FB pictures 3. generates 2 animated videos of their face, 1 just a normal color video and another with the dot pattern applied 4. now you need to show the 2 videos to FaceID, using the mirror to show the correct video the the corresponding camera

tspike 9y ago
They tested it against lifelike face masks, I doubt that would work, fortunately. They mentioned an IR camera, wouldn't be surprised if they're checking temperature as well.
- randyrand 9y ago
  People misunderstood what the static face masks were for. The static face masks were not for testing against a face-mask attack. They were for testing FaceID. As far as testing goes, the mask was assumed to be a stand-in for the real person.
  - macintux 9y ago
    Citation?
    - randyrand 9y ago
      2 years of work experience with Primesense 3d cameras. I'm well aware of what they are capable of. That said, they could use the color video feed to require subtle eye movements which would make this attack harder.
    - wiremine 9y ago
      Yeah, that's doesn't seem to jive with how they described it on stage...

mithr 9y ago

> Developers ... [are] given a depth map they can use for applications ... This can also be used in ARKit applications. This has me very excited. ARKit already does an impressive job of tracking as you move around your environment, and the major thing that seems lacking is being able to map existing objects to know where they are in relation to virtual ones. If they do this well, especially when it comes to automatically obfuscating virtual objects with real ones, it could allow ARKit to be used for creating much more immersive experiences.

thinbeige 9y ago

Very good interview. It shows that this feature is well thought-out and security-wise better than expected.

MBCook 9y ago
Given how well the implemented TouchID a few years ago I'm not surprised. I don't remember seeing any major criticism of TouchID, just amsome praise from security folk for how well thought out the implementation was.
- davidcbc 9y ago
  TouchID had a much lower bar to clear, just be better than a pin or password. FaceID has to be at least as good as TouchID or it is a step back for the iPhone.

DCKing 9y ago

I don't get it. This focus on FaceID seems to me some successful marketing spin by Apple, and the media seem to be drinking the Coolaid (again). Face recognition in my book is not a replacement for a fingerprint reader. See I don't doubt that FaceID will be good. I don't doubt the quality Apple provides when they introduce features like this. I'm sure it will work amazingly well, because unlike almost all previous implementations Apple actually makes purposeful hardware for it. The thing is, I don't want to look at my phone to unlock it. With a fingerprint reader - on my current Xperia and my current iPhone - my phone is unlocked before it faces me. I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. Needing to face your phone to unlock it seems to just be a really weird concession to me. As others point out, it also seems to be a minor concession security wise. It seems to be some typical form-over-function Apple thing again - UX and security concessions for a better looking phone. They should've slapped a fingerprint reader on the back once it turned out the under-the-screen fingerprint reader wasn't viable. Having to go through some ritual to face your phone and slide it open to unlock feels like a hassle and a downgrade. Especially on a €1000+ phone. So yeah, the Apple distortion field is still a real thing it seems. Or maybe the way I use my phone is weird. But either way, I don't get it.

MBCook 9y ago
How is this less secure? I really don't see what's so bad. To use my phone I have to look at it. So as long as it unlocks fast enough (reportedly it does) them it's a non-issue. > I unlock it when I get it out of my pocket. Once you look at it, it will be unlocked. > I unlock it while lying on the table when it's facing the ceiling. Depending on how you're positioned this maybe an issue. > I unlock it to peek at messages in meetings under the table. If you can look at the screen from a reasonable angle then it can see you and unlock. I wish people would stop bashing this stuff 15m after it's announced in the presentation. Let's see what the security white paper says. Let's see what reviewers who have been allowed to use it say (they couldn't enroll at the event). Until then this is all straw man arguments (on both sides, my comments are based on Apple reasonably delivering what they promise).
- 9y ago

noncoml 9y ago

My understanding is that FaceID and TouchID are more of convenience features than security features, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. Shouldn't one just disable both of them and use a long passlock code if they are serious about security?

MBCook 9y ago
Yep. They are designed to be more secure than no password or a simple 4 (now 6) digit PIN. Troy Hunt's article that was posted in the last two days had a very balanced view of it.
valuearb 9y ago
You'd have to be super serious about security to disable either of them. If you are a high ranking government official, or super secret spy, maybe. Because with FaceID they can't spoof it with a photo, they can't break into the secure enclave to get your facial map data, and even if they are able to take a high resolution 3D photo of your face and build an identical mask to your face, it probably won't work. This and TouchID are the most secure authorization features ever created, because 100% of people will use them,, and less than 1% will create long passcodes.
z6 9y ago
The problem with the pin is that you can easily see people entering them, and then you can easily get in. With TouchID and FaceID that part is a lot more difficult.

fish_fan 9y ago

Wow, so the facial recognition is both used and trained in the secure enclave. Imagine a future where you could root your phone by showing it a picture of an artfully encoded payload printed on paper.

MBCook 9y ago
Come to think of it, that would make a great movie plot. "It turns out an engineer hid a backdoor in the phone. You can unlock anyone's phone if you can just show it The Macguffin. But now he's died and the world is about to be blown up and we need to figure out what was on his phone before it's too late. We only have 36 hours left to find The Macguffin and unlock his phone before FaceID won't work; his 75 character password is totally unguessable." Hollywood? Get in touch.
deleted 9y ago
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makecheck 9y ago

What I worry about is drivers. Texting while driving has been illegal in multiple places for years but to this day it is downright easy to find an example of someone still doing it. Now imagine these fools deciding to turn away and look because their phone is not unlocking otherwise...

sushisource 9y ago
This is a great point, and probably way more impactful than anything else mentioned in this thread. People will continue to be shitheads and use their phone while driving, that's inevitable, and this could make that even more distracting. Now they've got to take their eyes off the road for a second, or fumble with holding the phone above the wheel.
- stuartd 9y ago
  If you're going to use your phone while driving, then you're going to have to look at it to do so. How you unlock it is irrelevant.
  - secabeen 9y ago
    Not necessarily. I've been in a classroom, opened my phone with the fingerprint sensor, written a reply to an IM I just received, glanced down to confirm that auto-correct got my language right, and hit send. It's not that frequent, but I have done it.
oceanswave 9y ago
Interesting that they've tried to tackle this too: https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/30/ios-11-do-not-disturb-while-driving/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/06/30/ios-11-do-not-disturb-w...

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

Its simply astounding that so many people are drinking the Apple kool-aid. The avalanche of complaints that will be unleashed after the release of this phone will be massive and sudden. If you think that this tech will work as flawlessly and without trouble as Apple claims, I have some bridges to sell you in Houston.

whipoodle 9y ago
Oh, stop.
valuearb 9y ago
Yep, just like TouchID! Wait, TouchID worked great! You're a loon!

shams93 9y ago

Law enforcement don't have to guess which of your 10 fingers you used for touch id, they don't need your consent to handcuff you and then point the phone at your face to get into your personal info. With touch if they have to get you to do something you comply it's your fingers with this it seems much easier for authoritarians to abuse.

adamsea 9y ago
Authoritarians can abuse it all with equal ease.
eric_h 9y ago
But it won't work if your eyes are closed, or not looking at the screen. All it takes is 5 fails, and then your face is no longer an authentication token.
- ajanuary 9y ago
  I haven't seen anything that explains what constitutes a failure. It seems plausible no eye contact wouldn't constitute a failure. It also seems plausible it would, but they may have to be more relaxed about what constitutes an "attempt" as looking at the phone is less definite than placing a finger on the sensor.
GeekyBear 9y ago
Law enforcement would have to get a warrant first, according to a 2014 Supreme Court decision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riley_v._California Border agents operate under more permissive rules, although a recently filed lawsuit is seeking to change that as well. https://www.eff.org/press/releases/border-agents-need-warrant-search-travelers-phones-eff-tells-court https://www.eff.org/press/releases/border-agents-need-warran...

dhanh 9y ago

Can Face ID feature still work in outdoor environment, specially under sunlight?

matthewmacleod 9y ago
I think we can all be fairly confident that a key feature in Apple's flagship new phone will work in sunlight, yes.
- eric_h 9y ago
  I'm not sure if the weather in California really provides enough sunlight for sufficient testing...
  - oceanswave 9y ago
    There's sunlight in California? Good gravy I need to get out more.
valuearb 9y ago
It would be cool if the article addressed questions like this.
Tempest1981 9y ago
It's a reasonable question -- the relative brightness of the sun vs the phone's IR emitter. (Not deserving of a downvote, imo)
dhanh 9y ago
I asked this question because as I know, some devices that use similar technology with IR emitter and IR camera don't work in sunlight. They're Microsoft Kinect, Intel Realsense, Leapmotion... That happens because sunlight is a bigger IR source that overlap on IR light from IR Emitter, then makes the IR camera cannot get the correct dot images.
- speedplane 9y ago

jpalomaki 9y ago

Can't help thinking Face ID is something Apple had to do, not something they really wanted. Reading fingerprint with/through the touch screen [1] sounds a better alternative if they ever get it working well enough. [1] https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/2/14/14615228/apple-fingerprint-reader-patent-touch-id-smartphone-screen https://www.google.fi/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/20...

designcode 9y ago
Fingerprint login is a pain. Still has lots of times when it doesn’t work. Rather just not have to do anything to get into the phone !
rahoulb 9y ago
I remember having to force myself to set a PIN because it got in the way. I'm sure the idea of a phone that doesn't need any intervention to unlock it has always been the plan.

jccalhoun 9y ago

I wonder if they licensed any tech from Microsoft because faceid seems to work a lot like Windows Hello

blackflame7000 9y ago

How did Apple get consent from a billion people to use their likeness in their training set of images? Is it possible to train a facial recognition software acurately using different photos of the same person VS different people all together?

usaphp 9y ago
He said "billion images" not "billion people".
- blackflame7000 9y ago
  Refer to my second question
- darknet7 9y ago
  A billion images of the same person would be worthless.
- blackflame7000 9y ago
  Everyone who downvoted totally missed the point, that stating you trained with a billion images is a useless statistic. If i trained with a billion images of a firehydrant how does that help me distinguish a lamp post? For all we know it could have been 100 pictures of 10000 people. But yea, totally worth the negative 5 karma for some reason.

idlewords 9y ago

I trust Apple's security team to have implemented this in a way that preserves safety and privacy. Apple have shown themselves to be very good at that. That said, I find Face ID extraordinarily troubling, because it normalizes the idea that your phone actively scans your facial features during use. Just like carrying around an always-on pocket beacon became part of the 'new normal' with the introduction of the smartphone, a phone that looks back at you during use will become part of the new normal, too. When you combine this with business models that rely not just on advertising, but on promises to investors around novelty in advertising, and machine learning that has proven extremely effective at provoking user engagement, what you end up with is a mobile sensor that can read second-by-second facial expressions and adjust what is being shown in real time with great sophistication. All that's required is for a company to close the loop between facial sensor and server. Apple is unlikely to be this company. But Google, Facebook and Amazon are. What I anticipate is the next generation of Home and Echo to have cameras (Amazon is already moving in this direction), along with whatever piece of hardware Facebook produces. The idea of devices that look back at you will gain acceptance, just like always-listening voice assistants have gained acceptance. All of these will become input sources to learning algorithms. What is already an incredibly potent toolchain for political manipulation will become even more powerful, with no oversight, accountability, or even much understanding by those who built it on the way it can be profitably used and misused. Its effects will be field-tested in democratic elections that affect the lives of billions. This is what Zeynep Tufekci has called the architecture for networked fascism, and by manufacturing a mass-market device with active facial scanning, with the best of intentions, Apple has moved us a big step further along this dismal road.

mahyarm 9y ago
Just because apple did it better, doesn't mean they did it first or enabled it. Android has had face unlock for years and the S8 added 'iris unlock' also. They all have problems, since flat images defeat them compared to this more advanced version, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be improved later. The tech is out of bag and apple not doing it would just delay it by a few years. Managing a world where microphones and worse are everywhere and are being used by autocracy is how we should be acting going forward. Accepting that this is the world and dealing with the changes should be the focus, not trying to prevent tech that will be created whether or not some people like it. edit: I do agree with your tweet about how it changes social norms although.

limeblack 9y ago

[removed]

mikestew 9y ago
I do not know how this works "...but that won't keep me from commenting." The answer you seek is in the article that you didn't read.
oceanswave 9y ago
The point of the parent article is to describe how it works in depth, with a technical paper coming soon. Here's a marketing video that might help: https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m12s https://youtu.be/K4wEI5zhHB0?t=1m12s

late2part 9y ago

I was raised that MFA = something you have and something you know. Your face and your fingerprint are the former. They're not passwords.

kiliankoe 9y ago

How would FaceID be used to authenticate In-App-Purchases? Currently it's a finger on the home button, but I'd be somewhat scared if looking at the screen is all that's necessary to confirm a purchase. I'm pretty sure a second confirmation will be used, but I'm curious.

gls2ro 9y ago
From a pure statistical comparison (as also presented in the keynote) your face is more unique than your fingerprint in normal situation. When talking about edge cases (like someone trying very hard to rob you) then both of them have their own drawbacks. So from this points of view I don't see any major difference betweeen them. If you trust TouchId then you can trust FaceId in the sense of correctly indentifying while paying that YOU are the one who is authorizing the payment. I don't think there will be another confirmation other than the payment Flow implemented by the apps.
- kiliankoe 9y ago
  That's not what I meant. I'm interested in the UX. When I accidentally click to purchase an IAP currently, nothing happens until I actually confirm it with TouchID. With FaceID it could presumably already have confirmed the purchase because I looked at the screen too long.
  - dpkonofa 9y ago
    If it works anything like Apple Pay, you'll be required to push the side button to confirm a purchase. The Face ID piece will simply authorize you but there's still an action required to make the purchase.
  - majewsky 9y ago
    Sounds like an awesome new income stream for shady mobile game developers.

ksk 9y ago

It will be interesting to see what developers can do with the sensor, especially for AR. I wonder if you could stick two iphones together back to back and have one "see" the world in 3D and have the other augment it in some way.

xz0r 9y ago

> If there are 5 failed attempts to Face ID, it will default back to passcode. (Federighi has confirmed that this is what happened in the demo onstage when he was asked for a passcode — it tried to read the people setting the phones up on the podium.) Well, on the demo onstage, he did not enter the passcode after being asked for it. He just said "Let me try that again". Is it just a cover up?

rahoulb 9y ago
He tried again then said let's switch to a backup - so a different phone?
- xz0r 9y ago
  Yeah you're right. I missed that.

jafingi 9y ago

The thing I'm really looking forward to with Face ID is when apps are using it. Fine for unlocking the phone, but think about it. Right now, if you access your bank, Dropbox, 1Password etc. you open the app, wait for the Touch ID dialog to appear, then move your finger from the screen (where it was) and to the Touch ID to authorize. With Face ID; just open the app, and you're authorized. This is a HUGE thing in regards of usability. I love it.

pmontra 9y ago

I can unlock my phone with my fingerprints in the dark (example, at bed during the night). Do I have to turn on the light to use FaceID or do I have to type in a PIN instead? That would be progress /sarcasm. I could also unlock my phone and my tablet with my face (don't remember how Sony and Samsung call that method) but it means that I have to point their cameras to me. Maybe it's me but their cameras tend to point to the ceiling when I'm holding them. Fingerprints are faster. Even the swipe pattern on the tablet is faster. FaceID is probably more about the current impossibility of adding the fingerprint sensor to the bezelless and thin iPhone X. I expect Apple to solve that at the next iteration. FaceID would stay and be useful for some purposes, but people will be back at unlocking iPhones with their fingers.

Drakklor 9y ago
No, it uses infrared so you do not need to turn on the lights According to the leak from last week it should be able to unlock even if laying flat on a table.

ssijak 9y ago

Security wise, maybe they could implement a feature where if you look at the phone with a recorded grimace (one eye closed, or blinking fast or raised eyebrows etc etc) it would disable faceid. So if someone wants to force you to unlock it you just comply and make a face

gnicholas 9y ago

Interesting to see accessibility (for vision-impaired users) pop up here. Good to see that Apple thought about that and came up with something. I wonder if enabling the accessibility mode will result in haptic feedback that the device was unlocked.