14 ms·

HSBC is killing my business, piece by piece

739 points by larsiusprime 9y ago

matheweis 9y ago
When people tell me they don't "get" Bitcoin, this is exactly the sort of thing I have been looking for to try to explain it. Yes, it has problems and is still maturing, but no one can inexplicably just off your bank account like this.
- krisdol 9y ago
  Bitcoin can still be akin to keeping your life savings in the sock drawer. You still have to take steps to keep your holdings safe from a single point of failure and if you do get breached there's no legal recourse. You have nearly full control of your funds via bitcoin, but with that much control comes great responsibility to minimize risk that you normally expect a financial institution to do.
- kelvin0 9y ago
  https://news.bitcoin.com/top-10-biggest-bitcoin-villains-date/ https://news.bitcoin.com/top-10-biggest-bitcoin-villains-dat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox "Mt. Gox announced that approximately 850,000 bitcoins belonging to customers and the company were missing and likely stolen, an amount valued at more than $450 million at the time"
  - czechdeveloper 9y ago
    Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin. It's simple. https://youtu.be/dnC5mFaIW3Q https://youtu.be/dnC5mFaIW3Q
    - kelvin0 9y ago
      OK, so the link to that video is a 1 hour loop of a guy saying: "Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin". So my guess is you are making fun of the 'security' of that mantra being repeated in the video? Just making sure I got the 'joke' (please correct me if I err).
      - AgentME 9y ago
        I don't think it's meant to be ironic. Understanding that line would have protected many people from MtGox.
- dmoy 9y ago
  I've got coworkers and a friend who have been contacting coinbase for ~months because their funds have just disappeared into the ether. Deposited money, nothing showed up in their account. Apparently it's common, and they're just supposed to wait longer. I would guess that this is because just like you said, it has problems and is still maturing. But - doesn't that mean that coinbase could just off their accounts?
  - joering2 9y ago
    1) They should be buying with their credit card. Visa and MasterCard + Amex will not make any issues giving your money back through a chargeback dispute. Virtual Coins are NOT tangible assets; hence Coinbase can do shit to proof they delivered you the "goods" (main reason why a dispute will be favorable to them, not you the customers) 2) Talk with the few layers in Bay Area. I believe there is a class-action lawsuit brewing and they just need more voices to add. I seen ad/clicked and read through but somehow unable to find it now :( I am sure calling few lawyers that deal with class actions (Law firm from PayPal lawsuit?) will help you guide through the right direction. Good luck.
  - megous 9y ago
    Coinbase != bitcoin so the same benefits don't apply.
  - sowbug 9y ago
    Coinbase is a bridge between dollars and bitcoin. That's why it has all the AML/KYC hassles of an ordinary bank. Once you cross the bridge, though, your bitcoin is all under your control.
jacquesm 9y ago
So, immediately get on the horn with your lawyer and have your lawyer on his letterhead send them a letter and if the response is not to your liking sue the bastards. In the meantime set up another account with another bank and make sure all invoices that are pending but not yet paid are paid into that account and not into the HSBC account. Then shift over all the monthly payments to the new account as funds appear.
- woodylondon 9y ago
  Not sure if you're in the US? where that maybe possible. In the UK this is not that simple. Not even sure how you would sue them, their T&C would cover this under AML / Knowing your customer legislation. The problem is the knee jerk reaction from the government on stopping the bank's bad practices without thinking what happens, in reality, day to day.
  - umanwizard 9y ago
    So in the UK it's legal for banks to simply shut down your account and steal your money, and you have no recourse? Seems hard to believe. Apparently, from his profile, the guy you responded to is from the Netherlands.
    - djmobley 9y ago
      There's nothing to suggest the Bank have "stolen" OP's money.
      - alistairSH 9y ago
        Would you prefer "holding the OP's money hostage"? Call it what you will, it doesn't make the situation any less ridiculous.
      - qubex 9y ago
        Actually, and somewhat counter-intuitively, money you put into a bank account belongs to the bank, as an account-holder you have a credit and they have fiduciary duty towards you. But in a very fundamental sense the property of your money has passed to the institution you bank with. They do however have the duty to make it available you, or rather, do as you instruct them to up to the value you banked with them. EDIT: Foley v Hill, the foundational precedent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1
rwmj 9y ago
I would say (a) open a bank account with someone else and (b) contact someone from the BBC (eg https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact) and make a noise.
- jopsen 9y ago
  Yeah, lots of options... Ombudsman, politicians, media, lawyers, business interest groups... HN probably isn't local enough.
weirdstuff 9y ago
Reminds me of "Operation Chokepoint" where the U.S. federal government was able to persuade (not force) banks to cut off firearms dealers from their accounts in an effort to affect "unsavory businesses". Another reason why I want to avoid a cashless society, at least in the way we're heading right now. Scary how quickly banks will cave in to pressure from the feds before any legal process even begins (if ever). http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-banks-businesses/2014/05/28/id/573858/ http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-bank...
- carterpaige 9y ago
  You'll be happy to know that the Trump administration is dismantling it. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-reverses-obama-operation-chokepoint-241767 http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-reverses-obam... The presumption of guilt turns the entire concept of justice on its head. A 'cashless' society at best is one that ensures that only those at the top might get to enjoy the fruits of fraud and corruption.
- colemannugent 9y ago
  Scary stuff. Also, can anyone tell me why the other reply to the parent is dead? It was a completely relevant response that, I assume, was downvoted because it mentioned something that Trump did in a positive way.
  - weirdstuff 9y ago
    I saw that dead comment too and can't figure it out.
bradleyankrom 9y ago
> Don’t bank with HSBC. After having similarly-frustrating things happen with my HSBC personal accounts over the years, I fully support this suggestion. They are awful. They take extreme steps (suspending accounts, rejecting payments, etc.) without contacting the customer; when you reach out to them, it's hours of being passed around before you reach the right person. If you reach a person at all.
- xroche 9y ago
  > Don’t bank with HSBC. Unless you are a drug cartel, of course.
  - travmatt 9y ago
    Then you go into a special category, where you go from fighting to find a person to talk with, to having banks designed to more easily accommodate your dropoffs.
    - carapace 9y ago
      Oh yeah! I remember that. But it wasn't the banks, it was the boxes the cash was deposited in. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-se... > Breuer admitted that drug dealers would sometimes come to HSBC's Mexican branches and "deposit hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash, in a single day, into a single account, using boxes designed to fit the precise dimensions of the teller windows." So lame: > Though this was not stated explicitly, the government's rationale in not pursuing criminal prosecutions against the bank was apparently rooted in concerns that putting executives from a "systemically important institution" in jail for drug laundering would threaten the stability of the financial system.
  - calimac 9y ago
    In America small regional business banks are the way to go. Credit unions are ok but have fallen into bureaucracy.
  - 9y ago
webbrahmin 9y ago
I am from India. A startup I was part of also had a bad experience with the bank. I can't go into the details but the bottom line is that the bank branch where we had our account was absolutely uncooperative. The problem was resolved after many days of mail writing, talking to phone banking and running after the branch people.
koolba 9y ago
> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download free apps or update existing ones. Every time you try it just asks you to re-enter payment details. Not a show-stopper, but frustrating all the same. Not true. They have a lot of dark patterns to make you think that but you don't actually need a payment account associated with your Apple ID. It's possible they've changed this since the last time I tried doing setting one up but you may need to go through the desktop interface rather than doing it directly on a iOS device.
- homarp 9y ago
  https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204034 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204034 is "Learn how you can create or use your Apple ID in the iTunes Store without a credit card or other payment method." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201266 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201266 is "Change or remove your Apple ID payment information"
  - megous 9y ago
    Works only in some countries.
    - homarp 9y ago
      Can you give more details ?
      - megous 9y ago
        You need to have a card associated with the account and can't remove it if you're in Czechia. Or if it is possible I was not able to find how to do it after a hour of googling. It's per country requirement.
woodylondon 9y ago
I think this is a huge problem and one that is going to continue and get worse. How is it the banks were the ones at fault, but the customers are paying for it. They just hide behind AML / Knowing your customer and say talk to your MP. I was locked out of internet banking for my business account with Lloyds for over 3 months due to a technical fault in the way it was setup. Was paid compensation in the end, but already had moved to another bank. They could not have cared less. Some people will say no smoke without fire, but if you read on moneysavingexpert about people being locked out of their personal accounts for the same reason. Any transfer that is slightly different from your day to day will be flagged and risk having your account locked for weeks / months on end. It happens more than we realise. A bit like winning the lottery, it could be you :( The further we go down the road of electronic payments, and a cashless society it could get really messy. The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. Keep hold of some cash!
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. This is always good advice, and when you reach the maximum amount for which an account is insured (100K or thereabouts) it is an absolute must. I have my funds spread over five accounts just in case and make sure you note the legal differences between savings accounts and current accounts, the latter may not be insured in case the bank folds depending on where you are.
  - millstone 9y ago
    I think the limit was upped to $250K in the wake of the financial crisis.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Joint accounts are also insured at 250k per person per bank and count separately from individual accounts. So a couple can have 3 accounts 2x 250k + 500k in a joint account at the same bank.
jlebrech 9y ago
don't bank with someone who's been caught money laundering, as they'll treat all their customers like criminals.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Takes one to know one I guess.
- joering2 9y ago
  I think its worse than that. There were gladly providing business to companies that ended up being criminal enterprises laundrying hundreds of millions - they knew and were helping along the way. So if the OP had millions of USD revenue he would have gotten top notch customer support from HSBC; since he doesn't...
  - jlebrech 9y ago
    they probably have a quota of "investigations" to fill. but obvious they won't investigate their big money customers.
  - sbov 9y ago
    Plausible deniability if they get their hand caught again? "We suspend thousands of accounts for suspicious behavior, a few are going to get through".
namelost 9y ago
Presumably HSBC objects to a for-profit business running a patreon & donations. I can see how from a bank's perspective that could look like something illegal is going on.
- rainbowmverse 9y ago
  That should have come up on the initial review if it was a problem.
- pgeorgi 9y ago
  That's something they can complain over. Or hook you up with the local attorney general. Or shut down your account on some bullshit excuse to make you make it someone else's problem. Silently freezing the account with no way to resolve it? Nope.
- daemin 9y ago
  It could be the tax office, since getting money from Patreon (and also Kickstarter) counts as taxable income.
  - isostatic 9y ago
    As a business with an accountant I would assume all applicable income and expenses are recorded correctly
lushn 9y ago
I'm not entirely clear why the author felt it was a productive use of his time to write several thousand words on this. HSBC aren't likely to be swayed by such an article. They've been fined billions, they're probably not worried about being "called out". First of all: Why are you depending on only one bank account to run your business? It's very easy to set up two or more business bank accounts and use them both. Just like you have back-ups for your data (right?), it makes a lot of sense to also have financial back-ups for your business. Same with the debit/credit card - is that all you've got for business payments? Why don't you have more than one card? Why don't you move things over to a personal card while you open a second business card? It's too late for that now as the author didn't set that all up ahead of time, but instead of complaining on the internet, why don't they start moving things ASAP. I've found Santander incredibly easy to get up and running with (same day almost), compared to Barclays...etc. Look, you're running a business, and your job running a business is to keep it running. If you haven't thought ahead to such possible events, you're doing your business a disservice. So my advice - call Santander, start switching things over, stop broadcasting things online, and focus on keeping your business running. You can always do a recap later once things have died down. And I agree, HSBC are a complete PITA. It's far too much trouble even getting a personal account with them, so a business account would be far more effort than I would be looking for. Even Barclays wanted an in-person meeting (even though I've banked with them for decades) to open a business bank account. And the only date they had available was a month in the future. Yup, I cancelled that appointment. So, build redundancy into your business. At the very least a second bank account. It's easy, but as you can see, so very important. Just IMHO.
- 0x0 9y ago
  I think it was an interesting article, and if I ever will have to deal with HSBC I'll be sure to think twice and twice over. Bad customer service shouldn't get a free pass.
- Spearchucker 9y ago
  I think you're being a bit hard on the guy. He had (as anyone would) a reasonable expectation of a banking service, coupled with acceptable customer service. Hindsight is 20/20, and what he describes is not the norm. As to "writing several thousand words" - the intent is not to sway the HSBC. It's to sway others who may be similarly stung by the HSBC.
Spearchucker 9y ago
I second not dealing with HSBC. They've been fined as mentioned in the article. They've also lost enormous amounts of data through mismanagement and to hackers, so have gone to the other extreme of "safeguarding" their data. I put safeguarding in quotes because a couple years ago I was responsible for the technical aspects of the acquisition of a small fin. book from HSBC. They did a lot of absolute dictation of governance hurdles which they "enforced" - again the quotes, because they came to our offices and nodded wisely when I rattled through our list of safeguards. But very clearly didn't understand a thing about the controls we said we were using. They also didn't ask for any evidence of the controls. That really surprised me, after all the noise they'd made leading up to that meeting. I don't rate them technically at all, so have to wonder what their business capability is like...
- katet 9y ago
  Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments) but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this? Particularly for the UK, since a lot of the time the HN crowd is US-centric :)
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments) but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this? This is the problem. There are nightmare stories about basically every major bank and financial service, and while there are two sides to every story, a lot of them certainly look like well justified complaints about wildly inappropriate treatment. If someone was doing much better, we'd all be using them already. For now, I can only agree with the general advice many are giving: diversify, so you never have personal and business with the same organisation, never have all your essential accounts and cards with the same organisation, and so on.
forcer 9y ago
The story is very similar to what we experienced with HSBC exactly year ago. Its wrong on so many levels, in our case they sent us money via cheque so we got access to it in about 2 months. There is no point discussing anything with them, you are a small fish and have a business to run, not suing a bank or losing your focus on your main business. Since HSBC kicked us out we have multiple banks and if things go wrong we just move to another one.
Arathorn 9y ago
Does anyone have a datapoint on whether Barclays ever misbehaves like this for small business banking accounts?
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I don't know if they do this but I had poor service from Barclays, bad enough that I moved to Santander. Unfortunately, they were worse than Barclays so I then moved to HSBC. Interestingly they have been good so far, apart from closing my local branch.
- dnh44 9y ago
  I had my business account frozen by Barclays for similar reasons but they responded quickly and had me up and running again quickly. Basically I had an international customer making cash payments directly into my account at Barclays branches in the UK (I think he used some kind of underground international payments system). After a few times I got locked out of my account. They tried telling me it was an IT error. They opened the account back up in about a week but I was on the phone with them every day. I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like a bank. Oddly enough I tried to open an account with HSBC after that but because I've got a couple customers in "naughty" countries they refused to open the account. Their attitude makes a total mockery of all the advertising they seem to have plastered around at airports all over the world.
  - dx034 9y ago
    > I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like a bank. Transferwise? Any experience with that? Their offering sounds interesting.
    - dnh44 9y ago
      I use CurrencyFair and am very happy with them. Transferwise are a bit cheaper but they since have VC money and are likely to be cheap only temporarily I haven't tried them out.
neom 9y ago
HSBC has been an awful bank. My biggest startup regret.
calimac 9y ago
Banking in California is similarly dictatorial. I suggest opening a national account in Nevada. Like Wells Fargo, bank of the west, or any other flavor you like. Nevada banking privacy laws prohibit this shenanigans. They also protect you from inquiry by other foes. Too bad Nevada isn't a livable place to setup residency.
tweedledee 9y ago
This is an intentional strategy to increase the 'cost of regulation' so they can lobby against it and go back to accepting shoeboxes of cash through deposit windows.
- jopsen 9y ago
  Or they want to get rid of a business that doesn't borrow money... There is no money in banking services if they can't charge you extravagant fees. It's ironic :)
  - MichaelDickens 9y ago
    If you deposit money into a bank, they can lend out that money and earn interest. They don't need to charge you fees to make money from your deposits.
    - jopsen 9y ago
      Interests is extremely low and following 2008 liquidity requirements in the EU are rather high. IMO, they could just do honest business and charge a flat fee for service :)
    - dx034 9y ago
      With current regulation they get punished for taking business deposits. Deposits from retail clients are "sticky", so can be realiably used for loans. Business deposits fluctuate so that the bank has to keep a large share as cash at negative interest rates.
maxehmookau 9y ago
UK banks are ridiculous and they're hastening their own demise to challenger banks with attitudes likes this. My bank (Barclays) suspended my account and blocked my cards after attempting to make a large payment. It was £2000 to the Student Loans Company. My account was a graduate account. All of the clever machine learning anti-fraud algorithms in the world couldn't figure that one out. Go figure.
- djmobley 9y ago
  Why would you make a voluntary payment to SLC (assuming it was voluntary as most repayments are through PAYE)? That is quite an unusual thing to do.
  - maxehmookau 9y ago
    I'm self-employed and owed them the money that I would've otherwise paid through PAYE.
  - gaius 9y ago
    I paid off SLC in a lump sum after getting a bonus one year. I think it's quite normal.
  - pricechild 9y ago
    There's been a lot of advice shouted about that everyone should only make the minimum payments as it'll be cheaper when the debt is eventually written off - if you earn less than £X. That only works if the rules stay the same. I say it's a fair gamble that they won't and that many will wish they paid them off earlier.
    - tome 9y ago
      Then pay off the balance in full as soon as the rules change.
  - Silhouette 9y ago
    It's not going to be unusual with the interest rates that students on the current generation of loans are now being charged. In fact, those might well be the most expensive debts a new graduate has. The whole thing about writing off part of the loan after several decades is mostly just smoke and mirrors; many people in graduate roles won't save much if anything that way, but they'll be paying lots of extra money that looks a lot like an extra 9% of marginal income tax except that somehow it mysteriously winds up belonging to a private company these days. I'm genuinely surprised that high street banks haven't started openly competing with the official student loans already, at least not as far as I've seen. The terms are so abusive for new students today that the banks could easily offer private student loans on significantly better terms for the students and still make a fortune themselves. Maybe they're just assuming -- not unreasonably -- that the whole student funding mess is going to blow up spectacularly within the next few years and they don't want to be caught in the blast when it happens.
ajmurmann 9y ago
More hidden cost from the war on drugs. What does it take to finally try to find another solution or arrangement?! I guess value voters in the US will never give up on this and we will live with this silly bootleggers and Baptists problem forever...
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Hear, hear "PayPal, thank you. Your support was fantastic. I only wish HSBC were more like you."
- sireat 9y ago
  You know your bank is horrible when Paypal has the better support. Over the years here on HN we have heard a number of Paypal horror stories but it seems Paypal is somewhat responsive. Personally, I've had two lockdowns on my small time Paypal account(in 17 years) and in both cases I was able to resolve the matter within a few days. Both times involved faxing some information to them...
erikb 9y ago
If you interact with such a bigger company than your own it is normal that things can take 6-12 months. It's a good opportunity to harden your business against it. Nobody likes to do that, but if you want to survive you have to.
benmmurphy 9y ago
this is the problem with these regulations. i think know your customer is a good idea and the banks should be collecting this information but they shouldn't be responsible for making the decision. this should be a legal process run by the state. what you are seeing is what happens when due process is bypassed. if every bank follows the rules in a similar way and there is a good chance they do because they are acting in a way that is mandated by law then you can be effectively locked out of the banking system. you are being punished even though you have not been convicted of any crime by a court of law. i don't know what the solution is because the current implementation is quite efficient. but it does mean more innocent people are going to get burned.
edshiro 9y ago
This sucks. I've recently started contracting in the UK and opened a business bank account with HSBC. I was initially tempted by Tide (https://www.tide.co/ https://www.tide.co/), a new entrant with an attractive business banking product, but unfortunately they are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, so I thought twice... Maybe I should still open an account with them just in case... Wonder if anyone here has tried Tide here?
- sthen 9y ago
  FSCS is to give (limited) protection from a bank's bad investment/lending decisions. Tide operate using an emoney license which requires deposits to be held in a ring-fenced account and doesn't allow them to be lent/invested in that way. I'd be interested in other opinions but my understanding is that the risk FSCS protects against in the case of a bank can't happen under an emoney license anyway. (FSCS doesn't protect you from the problem this article was about either, and that seems much more likely to happen than one of the large banks being allowed to fail..) Their accounts are super easy to setup, if their fee structure fits how you work then it's probably worth having one even if it's "just in case" to keep your options open.
- ENadyr 9y ago
  Have been considering Tide, as we are applying for an HSBC Business bank account currently gulp. As Prepay Technologies Ltd is used to store the deposits I believe small companies ARE eligible for compensation under FSCS should Tide/PrePay run into problems.
- mprev 9y ago
  We have a Tide account, alongside a more conventional business bank account with a high street bank. Tide is not without its issues. For example, there's no way to accept payment from a non-UK account (no IBAN, BIC, SWIFT). It's also tied to a single person's mobile phone (even log-in to the web banking requires that one person's phone), even though we're a limited company, making it somewhat awkward for book-keeping purposes. The traditional banks are far from perfect but Tide is not right for every business just yet.
ig1 9y ago
You'll get the same treatment with the anti-fraud/kyc team at any bank. It's standard procedure to not disclose reasoning because it essentially helps fraudsters/criminals avoid checks. There can also be legal restrictions on what they can tell you. For example if they think you're committing money laundering it can be a criminal offence ("tipping off") for them to tell you that why they're investigating you. It might also not even be directly about your business, if for example one of your counter-parties (customer/supplier) is subject to criminal investigation it could result in you getting flagged up as a related party. It sucks when it happens but unfortunately it's a reality at every bank.
golemotron 9y ago
The horrible thing is that if you do maintain several business accounts and aren't careful about how you handle transfers between them you could be accused of structuring.
- tome 9y ago
  Structuring?
  - dllthomas 9y ago
    Structuring is arranging your transactions with the intent of avoid additional oversight that would otherwise be required by law. For instance, if you know there's a rule that says every transaction over $X must be reported, so you split your $(3X) deposit into three separate deposits of size $X.
javiramos 9y ago
Does the UK have the equivalent of credit unions? I moved to a credit union about 5 years ago and it turned out to be a great decision (if you have simple banking needs). I know all the tellers at my local branch and if I have a serious issue, I can just talk directly to the CEO.
- k-mcgrady 9y ago
  Don't know if they're the same as yours but yes, we have credit unions. I think they were much more popular a generation or two ago however. I still know some older family members who use them.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  We have building societies but they don't really service business customers.
- TorKlingberg 9y ago
  There are "Building Societies". They are mostly like banks but tend to be more local.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
atemerev 9y ago
Ironically, I know use Bitcoin and Bitcoin-linked debit cards to pay for Github, Amazon and the rest. Much easier than having all these calls from banks, and for less than 2000 €/month, KYC is very relaxed.
- 9to5isdead 9y ago
  what btc-linked debit cards do you use if you don't mind me asking?
  - atemerev 9y ago
    Bitwala
- nolite 9y ago
  Any recommendations on what you use?
  - atemerev 9y ago
    I use Bitwala for around a year, and I am really happy with them so far
scandox 9y ago
> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download free apps or update existing ones. I've always found this to be an issue that makes using a MAC a non-starter for me. I observed when I first got one (cast off) and it really puts me off.
- k-mcgrady 9y ago
  Can anyone verify if this is true? I know it was in the past but AFAIK when the App Store took off they removed this restriction allowing you to select 'none' as payment method and still download free apps (otherwise at the time a lot of iPod Touch customers - i.e. kids/teenagers - would not be able to have use their products). The 'none' option still exists so I don't see why you couldn't download free apps with that selected.
richardknop 9y ago
What a horror story. I also have a business bank account in UK and after reading this article I immediately went and paid myself a hefty dividend just in case something like this happened. I will try to keep balance in the business bank account low, just enough to pay corporation tax, VAT and salary.
butler14 9y ago
I think the chap has been incredibly calm about the whole thing. I'd be in my local branch every day refusing to leave until they take the necessary steps to re-open the account. This really struck a nerve with me, as I've had similarly infuriating experiences with Natwest (though never to the point of my account being suspended). Passed from one team to another -- and even witnessing colleagues from different teams argue with each other, not realising that I wasn't properly on mute... I wish I had it recorded. Opening and administrating a simple small business bank account has been the single most unnecessarily difficult and frustrating thing about starting my own business. It's why I'm so passionate about someone FINALLY disrupting the circle jerk of the mainstream banking industry and the organisational, bureaucratic and regulatory clusterfuck that it has become.
zwetan 9y ago
> The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. not only banks, you also have paypal, prepaid cards, etc. and not only "short term" eg. always avoid the "single point of failure" the real infuriating part here is that those problems occur on a business account (not a personal account), if you pay extra for business you should get extra/faster service/resolution.
petercooper 9y ago
We were just about to move our business banking over to HSBC, but this is appalling. I'm going to bring this up with the people we're dealing with and politely decline to go any further with the process for now.
libeclipse 9y ago
There better be some serious god damned compensation for that company at the end of this. Jesus Christ, I wouldn't even know where to start in estimating the damages.
willmacdonald 9y ago
I left HSBC and have been much happier with Bank Of Scotland small business account. I also get the feeling HSBC would like it if you were in debt, or had a loan. At least they would be making money from you!
- cat199 9y ago
  > At least they would be making money from you! Banks use deposits to fund loans to other customers. If you are depositing money in a bank, they are automatically making money off of you.
TheVinous 9y ago
I just can't believe this can happen in 2017... like if we were in the 90s. HSBC doesn't have a clue how a business works nowadays.
qubex 9y ago
HSBC — Highly Suspicious Banking Corporation
bnastic 9y ago
Just go to Cater Allen next time, thank me later.
ksec 9y ago
Slightly Off Topic: The other thing i notice is how we are dependent on "Monthly" services and subscription. iCloud, Photoshop etc. A lot of these could have been a product that you buy it one off.
- jaclaz 9y ago
  Exactly. An aspect of SaaS that needs to be considered.
rburhum 9y ago
Go to a lawyer right now and pay for him to draft a letter that you will sue for damages if they dont resolve this by the end of the week. Send it to legal and watch how quickly they solve it
JohnnyConatus 9y ago
Chase suspended my companies' account for largely the same reasons FYI. I highly recommend moving to a bank where you can have an actual personal relationship with your banker. I haven't used SVB but it can't be worse than the big banks.
- rbp 9y ago
  I had a relationship with my Chase banker but my business account was still frozen without notice. To restore access I needed to physically fly to the US and prove my identity again. To minimize this risk in future I opened accounts with multiple banks and split my transactions between them.
lemonycracket 9y ago
This is why Bitcoin, Monero and Ethereum will take over completely.
quadrangle 9y ago
Admittedly tangential but > I’m just another failed bank card to them, draining their systems. Well, you're not draining Adobe. You're running Photoshop locally, so you aren't costing them any bandwidth, unlike most of those other services. That rental model for software you run locally is even worse than most proprietary models. If Adobe weren't effectively a monopoly, I'd hope people would reject this nonsense.
tchaffee 9y ago
I have had bad experiences as a Barclays customer. Not as bad as what was described in this article, but things that would be unacceptable at even the worst American bank. I really get the feeling that banks in the UK only begrudgingly provide retail banking. And commercial banking for smaller businesses falls under that umbrella too. I don't have any hard evidence, but I would have to guess their real profits are in other banking sectors like investment banking, or with their bigger commercial accounts.
amelius 9y ago
Reminds me of those horror stories about PayPal. You can always start a website like this one: http://www.paypalsucks.com/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/
- hesselink 9y ago
  The interesting thing is that he thanks PayPal for their help in this case.
joemi 9y ago
I swore off HSBC years ago when they wronged me. Short version: They sold my account to another bank (!) that had a nearest branch 100+ miles away(!), and wouldn't let me opt out or close my account before the transfer! Long version: I had a personal (not company) bank account with HSBC, but the closed my local branch and informed me that my account would be transferred to a different bank. I had no idea they could do that, especially since HSBC itself wasn't closing. But it gets worse: The nearest branch of the bank they would transfer my account to was not even within my state but the next state over, 100+ miles away, and I don't own a car. So that would not do, at all. I saw received a notification about this just a few days before the transfer would happen. I went to an HSBC branch to ask about it and found out they supposedly had sent an opt out form a month or two earlier, which I never received. The only thing I got was what they sent a few days before the switch, which included "welcome to your new bank" material. Since the switch hadn't happened yet, I asked to opt out, and was told that wasn't possible. So then I asked to close my account, and was told they couldn't do that! My account was still and HSBC account, but they refused to let me close my account! The branch manager told me I had to close my account with the new bank after the transfer. I could not comprehend how I was standing in an HSBC bank, with an HSBC account, and they would not let me close my account. Made no sense to me at all. So I did the only thing left I could think of: I withdrew all of my money in that account and opened up a new bank account with another bank down the road. I called the bank that HSBC had sold my account to to cancel the account, but they wouldn't let me since it wasn't their account yet (of course). So I waited a few days and called them again to cancel the account. They wouldn't let me. I was told I had to go to a bank branch and cancel it in person. I explained the whole situation about the unstoppable account transfer and the fact that I was not going to rent a car and travel 100+ miles just to cancel an account with no money in it (which I needed to cancel since they would charge low-balance fees). And I was told the same thing. I ended up having to call them several times over the course of the next few days before I managed to get them to cancel my account and undo the low-balance fees I was charged. About a week later I had the paper documentation of account closure that I made them send me, thereby finally ending my tale and cementing HSBC as a company I will never ever do business with again in any fashion.
vizzah 9y ago
At the moment banking is a total disaster. Personal accounts, under KYC disguise, are being questioned on "suspicious" £2-3k transactions sent between family members. Banks fraud altering systems are so inconceivably dumb, that they can't recognize two persons both having bank accounts at their same institution, both living on the same address as being part of a household, not to bother questioning them why they send cash to each other.(Lloyds Bank, UK). Business banking is getting totally destroyed by fanatical and full of nonsense administration of KYC regulations, where banks want to verify not only the invoices and reasons for every transaction, but the underlying composition of every amount and how it was earned and why. And why the sum earned is higher, than what they think it should be. Their reviews of business models and revenue generation processes is more strict and intruding, than the figures some investors consider enough to provide business with funding.(Rietumu bank, Latvia). At the same time many large European banks are losing their ability to transact in USD, after bank-correspondents are leaving them (Deutsche bank). SEPA transfers in EUR is what is left for many businesses as they are cut from making any international payments in non-EUR currency. The situation is beyond worrying. I hope there are some sane banks left. Possibly smaller banks, friendly to online businesses, who realize that when you receive affiliate payments from Booking.com NV, you are not laundering money and it would be totally moronic to questions those transfers. Please comment if you can recommend such.
woodylondon 9y ago
Another example of UK banking going wrong is the story of a number of companies including a Noel Edmunds (deal or deal fame) that went under after massive fraud caused "allegedly" by bank staff! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-edmonds-compensation-claim-hbos-lloyds https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-edmond...
slowwwclap 9y ago
Fuck them. Move on. You are perpetuating this mess. Businesses do periodically change banks or account numbers if their account has been compromised by fraud. (This recently happened to my family's business bank account... fraudulent checks were produced - so we created a new checking account.) You can re-automate all your payments within a day or two on your new account with your NEW BANK. The silver lining is you can assess all these monthly charges - and possibly cut some unneeded services - or upgrade some which you would benefit from. MOST IMPORTANTLY - Find a bank that is headquartered locally - so you can go see the people who work at the bank occasionally - build relationships - and avoid this type of abuse. If the local bank is sold to a bigger bank - jump ship again. This sounds like a toxic business relationship and your only TEMPORARY loss is the cash they are holding in your account. You should have access to emergency funds in another bank account - and if you don't - learn that lesson now. You are ultimately responsible for everything and service providers are just that - service providers. Learn to fire and hire them as often as needed.
thrownAway09876 9y ago
As a tech business owner, I learned the hard way that you must pick a bank to match your business. If you are a small shop, don't bank with large banks. Find a local / regional bank, go physically there, develop a relationship with the bank. You have absolutely no financial leverage and no meaningful relationship with a large bank and that's not in the best interest to your business.
fryingpan 9y ago
I worked at HSBC for a little bit. We often hear the term "too big to fail" in relation to big banks. This place is too big to succeed. I was there supposedly to implement state-of-the-art trading systems and processes. I left after 2+ years with little to show. The pace of progress is glacial. Managers are scared to change the status quo because of fears of rocking the boat. Embarking on new projects risks making them look bad if the projects don't reach expectations. One of the problems is HSBC's DPA, deferred prosecution agreement, with the Justice Department. Basically, HSBC needs to operate on a clean track record for 5+ years and the US government will avoid fining them even more. The result is a culture of fear combined with zero innovation. Just stay the course, get paid nicely in your nice cushy jobs. Screw over your clients in the meantime if you have to.
cm2187 9y ago
As a banker, I am the first agree that banks offer an absolutely shit service, and the story in this article is only too common. But one should keep in mind that this is the direct consequence of over-regulation. Regulations creates massive barriers to entry, through the complexity of the laws and regulation banks have to deal with and the amount of capital required to open a bank. As a result, no competition, and therefore the sort of monopolistic behavior that you normally observe in nationalized industries, where your bank doesn't give a shit whether you are satisfied or not. In addition to that, most western countries deputized the banks to act as law enforcement under the threat of multi-billion fines. For certain banks, pretty much all profits from the past 5-7y have been nationalized through fines. As a business, banks will go to any extremity for these fines to cease, even it it means burning a few clients (or employees). We must like the consequences of what we wish for.
hartator 9y ago
> but I appreciate they had to check Nah, you shouldn't. "Know your customers" is BS, restrain your freedoms, and don't stop real frauders.
hartator 9y ago
Now your account has been restored, empty it out and fund another account in another bank. HSBC is one of the worst bank.
rdiddly 9y ago
Yet another example of the sad state of affairs that engaging companies or governments directly through their established, official channels no longer works as well as going (or threatening to go) to Twitter with it. Is it acceptable that a Twitter account and the ability to publicly Twitter-shame is a prerequisite for decent service? Is it acceptable that it's a prerequisite for democracy? It seems utterly ridiculous to me.
jgalt212 9y ago
it blows my mind that basically any financial crime committed by a big shop results in a fine (and more regulation/compliance) instead of jail time for the bad actors. of course, if the crime is committed by a penny ante fraudster, then the DOJ is not afraid to put them in jail. https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-Criminals/dp/1501121367 https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-C...
JohnTHaller 9y ago
I had to fight with Citibank for about 3 months to get them not to suspend my business account after I'd been a customer for 10 years due to the new "know your customer" bs. The "know your customer" regulations are about as anti-small business as they can be. Doesn't matter that you have an LLC in the State of NY that's been active for 17 years, we won't let you keep your account without a signed and notarized letter from your accountant or lawyer stating exactly what your business and income is from. Doesn't matter if you don't have a lawyer or accountant because you handle it yourself via thinks like Quickbooks, go pay one a couple grand to look through your books for the last 10 years and then sign the notarized letter. If you're having trouble with an HSBC or Citibank, try a smaller bank or a credit union. They'll generally have policies catering more to the local market. The local credit union had no such issues like above. A smaller bank like TD Bank just wanted to make sure you were registered with the state and do a premises visit (and visiting your apt/home was also acceptable for home-based businesses).
tedmc 9y ago
Porter's Five Forces. Never let a single organization be a supplier for 100% of critical infrastructure. As I write this, I'm reminded it's been a while since I've looked through everything to make sure I'm not.
inovica 9y ago
Hi. I run SourceGuardian.com. Today I had exactly the same experience!! Whilst I was in the States for 5 weeks I tried to log in to my online banking and received the same message. I just presumed it was their security system recognising I was in the USA and therefore I decided to deal with it when home. Arrived back and made a call, but was told I needed to go to a brand. Went to a branch and they told me they could not help. Eventually I went to another branch and found a sympathetic business manager. Finally I talked with HSBC on the phone again but they say that I must do another call with them, despite me doing one already. My story is exactly the same although I'm just starting - already I have had payments denied and have been told that all funds have been frozen. Of course they're accepting deposits, I just can't take any money out!! Its a nightmare. Tomorrow I am going to see what I can do and who I can call to try to resolve this.
SJoelKatz 9y ago
This was the entirely predictable result of regulations on financial institutions that have become more and more idiotic. Imagine if we had decided to fight drug dealers and terrorism by prohibiting any restaurant or grocery store from knowingly selling food to drug dealers and terrorists. We would see this same nonsense with food that we see with finance. If we're going to fight drug dealers and terrorists, it shouldn't be by trying to push them to the fringes of our financial system, it should be putting them in jail. https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash
enscr 9y ago
This happened to a friend a few months ago. He has a SaaS business, working remotely out of France (uses Stripe + US bank accounts as he lived in US for sometime). One day suddenly, he got locked out of his bank account (a major US bank) and the only way to restore the access was to walk into a branch physically. This meant dropping all work and flying to US at a day's notice, assuming you are granted a Visa. He was fortunate that the customer service listened (though they were not the politest people on the planet). After jumping a few hoops and following some unconventional methods of verification, the access was restored, but the situation was scary for a few days.
anonu 9y ago
This is a byproduct of HSBC's deferred prosecution agreement with the DoJ... They are overly cautious on pretty much everything.
nfriedly 9y ago
Wow, so bad they make PayPal look good! I have my business accounts with my local credit union[1] and would never recommend a bank - any bank - if you could possibly avoid it. [1]: https://www.wpcu.coop/ https://www.wpcu.coop/
shermozle 9y ago
"what it was really doing was checking I’m not a drug cartel or rogue nation." If they decide you are a drug cartel or rogue nation, you will be upgraded to Most Favoured Customer status and assigned a personal account manager. If requested the dimensions for the aperture of teller windows will be provided so you can custom manufacture boxes to fit the maximum amount of dirty cash through them in the shortest time possible.
koonsolo 9y ago
Be your own bank ;). Another nice use case for bitcoin.
dandare 9y ago
At this point, I believe they harras the small customers to cover up the real corruption. In the meantime: (UK at centre of secret $3bn Azerbaijani money laundering and lobbying scheme)[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-centre-of-secret-3bn-azerbaijani-money-laundering-and-lobbying-scheme https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-centre-o...]
rbp 9y ago
I had a somewhat similar experience with Chase - account locked without notice, wouldn't tell me what was wrong, couldn't get paid by clients. The only way I was able to solve the problem was physically flying to the US and proving my identity (again) in person. Fortunately my credit card was through a different bank so didn't lose access to third party services.
lobo_tuerto 9y ago
Amazon does the same thing, once they lock up your account there is nothing much you can do except make a lot of noise and hope you'll be heard. I had a horrible experience with a buyer account, they locked it up, and I didn't even receive a notification about it (I thought it was hacked...). The problem is that I had some packages on their way and I could not access any tracking info, etc. After a couple of distressing days, access got restored with no explanation as to why it was locked in the first place, and I still have to hear from them what happened.
BrandoElFollito 9y ago
There is something magical in how people are attached to their bank, at least here in France (but it looks from the article that this is the same in the UK). Just switch banks! I never payed for a bank account (in several countries where I had an account while living there). When Credit Mutuel decided to do my free account, I went to them and told them that either they go back or I leave. They did not believe me so I left on the spot. It is so simple today to change that it should be like changing the brand of cereals. I am now with a bank which just works and very happy, one just needs to try until they get the right one.

739 points by larsiusprime 9y ago

When people tell me they don't "get" Bitcoin, this is exactly the sort of thing I have been looking for to try to explain it. Yes, it has problems and is still maturing, but no one can inexplicably just off your bank account like this.

krisdol 9y ago
Bitcoin can still be akin to keeping your life savings in the sock drawer. You still have to take steps to keep your holdings safe from a single point of failure and if you do get breached there's no legal recourse. You have nearly full control of your funds via bitcoin, but with that much control comes great responsibility to minimize risk that you normally expect a financial institution to do.
kelvin0 9y ago
https://news.bitcoin.com/top-10-biggest-bitcoin-villains-date/ https://news.bitcoin.com/top-10-biggest-bitcoin-villains-dat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox "Mt. Gox announced that approximately 850,000 bitcoins belonging to customers and the company were missing and likely stolen, an amount valued at more than $450 million at the time"
- czechdeveloper 9y ago
  Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin. It's simple. https://youtu.be/dnC5mFaIW3Q https://youtu.be/dnC5mFaIW3Q
  - kelvin0 9y ago
    OK, so the link to that video is a 1 hour loop of a guy saying: "Your keys, your bitcoin. Not your keys, not your bitcoin". So my guess is you are making fun of the 'security' of that mantra being repeated in the video? Just making sure I got the 'joke' (please correct me if I err).
    - AgentME 9y ago
      I don't think it's meant to be ironic. Understanding that line would have protected many people from MtGox.
dmoy 9y ago
I've got coworkers and a friend who have been contacting coinbase for ~months because their funds have just disappeared into the ether. Deposited money, nothing showed up in their account. Apparently it's common, and they're just supposed to wait longer. I would guess that this is because just like you said, it has problems and is still maturing. But - doesn't that mean that coinbase could just off their accounts?
- joering2 9y ago
  1) They should be buying with their credit card. Visa and MasterCard + Amex will not make any issues giving your money back through a chargeback dispute. Virtual Coins are NOT tangible assets; hence Coinbase can do shit to proof they delivered you the "goods" (main reason why a dispute will be favorable to them, not you the customers) 2) Talk with the few layers in Bay Area. I believe there is a class-action lawsuit brewing and they just need more voices to add. I seen ad/clicked and read through but somehow unable to find it now :( I am sure calling few lawyers that deal with class actions (Law firm from PayPal lawsuit?) will help you guide through the right direction. Good luck.
- megous 9y ago
  Coinbase != bitcoin so the same benefits don't apply.
- sowbug 9y ago
  Coinbase is a bridge between dollars and bitcoin. That's why it has all the AML/KYC hassles of an ordinary bank. Once you cross the bridge, though, your bitcoin is all under your control.

jacquesm 9y ago

So, immediately get on the horn with your lawyer and have your lawyer on his letterhead send them a letter and if the response is not to your liking sue the bastards. In the meantime set up another account with another bank and make sure all invoices that are pending but not yet paid are paid into that account and not into the HSBC account. Then shift over all the monthly payments to the new account as funds appear.

woodylondon 9y ago
Not sure if you're in the US? where that maybe possible. In the UK this is not that simple. Not even sure how you would sue them, their T&C would cover this under AML / Knowing your customer legislation. The problem is the knee jerk reaction from the government on stopping the bank's bad practices without thinking what happens, in reality, day to day.
- umanwizard 9y ago
  So in the UK it's legal for banks to simply shut down your account and steal your money, and you have no recourse? Seems hard to believe. Apparently, from his profile, the guy you responded to is from the Netherlands.
  - djmobley 9y ago
    There's nothing to suggest the Bank have "stolen" OP's money.
    - alistairSH 9y ago
      Would you prefer "holding the OP's money hostage"? Call it what you will, it doesn't make the situation any less ridiculous.
    - qubex 9y ago
      Actually, and somewhat counter-intuitively, money you put into a bank account belongs to the bank, as an account-holder you have a credit and they have fiduciary duty towards you. But in a very fundamental sense the property of your money has passed to the institution you bank with. They do however have the duty to make it available you, or rather, do as you instruct them to up to the value you banked with them. EDIT: Foley v Hill, the foundational precedent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foley_v_Hill?wprov=sfti1

rwmj 9y ago

I would say (a) open a bank account with someone else and (b) contact someone from the BBC (eg https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact https://ssl.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv/contact) and make a noise.

jopsen 9y ago
Yeah, lots of options... Ombudsman, politicians, media, lawyers, business interest groups... HN probably isn't local enough.

weirdstuff 9y ago

Reminds me of "Operation Chokepoint" where the U.S. federal government was able to persuade (not force) banks to cut off firearms dealers from their accounts in an effort to affect "unsavory businesses". Another reason why I want to avoid a cashless society, at least in the way we're heading right now. Scary how quickly banks will cave in to pressure from the feds before any legal process even begins (if ever). http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-banks-businesses/2014/05/28/id/573858/ http://www.newsmax.com/US/Operation-Choke-Point-federal-bank...

carterpaige 9y ago
You'll be happy to know that the Trump administration is dismantling it. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-reverses-obama-operation-chokepoint-241767 http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-reverses-obam... The presumption of guilt turns the entire concept of justice on its head. A 'cashless' society at best is one that ensures that only those at the top might get to enjoy the fruits of fraud and corruption.
colemannugent 9y ago
Scary stuff. Also, can anyone tell me why the other reply to the parent is dead? It was a completely relevant response that, I assume, was downvoted because it mentioned something that Trump did in a positive way.
- weirdstuff 9y ago
  I saw that dead comment too and can't figure it out.

bradleyankrom 9y ago

> Don’t bank with HSBC. After having similarly-frustrating things happen with my HSBC personal accounts over the years, I fully support this suggestion. They are awful. They take extreme steps (suspending accounts, rejecting payments, etc.) without contacting the customer; when you reach out to them, it's hours of being passed around before you reach the right person. If you reach a person at all.

xroche 9y ago
> Don’t bank with HSBC. Unless you are a drug cartel, of course.
- travmatt 9y ago
  Then you go into a special category, where you go from fighting to find a person to talk with, to having banks designed to more easily accommodate your dropoffs.
  - carapace 9y ago
    Oh yeah! I remember that. But it wasn't the banks, it was the boxes the cash was deposited in. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-settlement-proves-the-drug-war-is-a-joke-20121213 http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/outrageous-hsbc-se... > Breuer admitted that drug dealers would sometimes come to HSBC's Mexican branches and "deposit hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash, in a single day, into a single account, using boxes designed to fit the precise dimensions of the teller windows." So lame: > Though this was not stated explicitly, the government's rationale in not pursuing criminal prosecutions against the bank was apparently rooted in concerns that putting executives from a "systemically important institution" in jail for drug laundering would threaten the stability of the financial system.
- calimac 9y ago
  In America small regional business banks are the way to go. Credit unions are ok but have fallen into bureaucracy.
- 9y ago

webbrahmin 9y ago

I am from India. A startup I was part of also had a bad experience with the bank. I can't go into the details but the bottom line is that the bank branch where we had our account was absolutely uncooperative. The problem was resolved after many days of mail writing, talking to phone banking and running after the branch people.

koolba 9y ago

> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download free apps or update existing ones. Every time you try it just asks you to re-enter payment details. Not a show-stopper, but frustrating all the same. Not true. They have a lot of dark patterns to make you think that but you don't actually need a payment account associated with your Apple ID. It's possible they've changed this since the last time I tried doing setting one up but you may need to go through the desktop interface rather than doing it directly on a iOS device.

homarp 9y ago
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204034 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204034 is "Learn how you can create or use your Apple ID in the iTunes Store without a credit card or other payment method." https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201266 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201266 is "Change or remove your Apple ID payment information"
- megous 9y ago
  Works only in some countries.
  - homarp 9y ago
    Can you give more details ?
    - megous 9y ago
      You need to have a card associated with the account and can't remove it if you're in Czechia. Or if it is possible I was not able to find how to do it after a hour of googling. It's per country requirement.

woodylondon 9y ago

I think this is a huge problem and one that is going to continue and get worse. How is it the banks were the ones at fault, but the customers are paying for it. They just hide behind AML / Knowing your customer and say talk to your MP. I was locked out of internet banking for my business account with Lloyds for over 3 months due to a technical fault in the way it was setup. Was paid compensation in the end, but already had moved to another bank. They could not have cared less. Some people will say no smoke without fire, but if you read on moneysavingexpert about people being locked out of their personal accounts for the same reason. Any transfer that is slightly different from your day to day will be flagged and risk having your account locked for weeks / months on end. It happens more than we realise. A bit like winning the lottery, it could be you :( The further we go down the road of electronic payments, and a cashless society it could get really messy. The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. Keep hold of some cash!

jacquesm 9y ago
> The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. This is always good advice, and when you reach the maximum amount for which an account is insured (100K or thereabouts) it is an absolute must. I have my funds spread over five accounts just in case and make sure you note the legal differences between savings accounts and current accounts, the latter may not be insured in case the bank folds depending on where you are.
- millstone 9y ago
  I think the limit was upped to $250K in the wake of the financial crisis.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Joint accounts are also insured at 250k per person per bank and count separately from individual accounts. So a couple can have 3 accounts 2x 250k + 500k in a joint account at the same bank.

jlebrech 9y ago

don't bank with someone who's been caught money laundering, as they'll treat all their customers like criminals.

jacquesm 9y ago
Takes one to know one I guess.
joering2 9y ago
I think its worse than that. There were gladly providing business to companies that ended up being criminal enterprises laundrying hundreds of millions - they knew and were helping along the way. So if the OP had millions of USD revenue he would have gotten top notch customer support from HSBC; since he doesn't...
- jlebrech 9y ago
  they probably have a quota of "investigations" to fill. but obvious they won't investigate their big money customers.
- sbov 9y ago
  Plausible deniability if they get their hand caught again? "We suspend thousands of accounts for suspicious behavior, a few are going to get through".

namelost 9y ago

Presumably HSBC objects to a for-profit business running a patreon & donations. I can see how from a bank's perspective that could look like something illegal is going on.

rainbowmverse 9y ago
That should have come up on the initial review if it was a problem.
pgeorgi 9y ago
That's something they can complain over. Or hook you up with the local attorney general. Or shut down your account on some bullshit excuse to make you make it someone else's problem. Silently freezing the account with no way to resolve it? Nope.
daemin 9y ago
It could be the tax office, since getting money from Patreon (and also Kickstarter) counts as taxable income.
- isostatic 9y ago
  As a business with an accountant I would assume all applicable income and expenses are recorded correctly

lushn 9y ago

I'm not entirely clear why the author felt it was a productive use of his time to write several thousand words on this. HSBC aren't likely to be swayed by such an article. They've been fined billions, they're probably not worried about being "called out". First of all: Why are you depending on only one bank account to run your business? It's very easy to set up two or more business bank accounts and use them both. Just like you have back-ups for your data (right?), it makes a lot of sense to also have financial back-ups for your business. Same with the debit/credit card - is that all you've got for business payments? Why don't you have more than one card? Why don't you move things over to a personal card while you open a second business card? It's too late for that now as the author didn't set that all up ahead of time, but instead of complaining on the internet, why don't they start moving things ASAP. I've found Santander incredibly easy to get up and running with (same day almost), compared to Barclays...etc. Look, you're running a business, and your job running a business is to keep it running. If you haven't thought ahead to such possible events, you're doing your business a disservice. So my advice - call Santander, start switching things over, stop broadcasting things online, and focus on keeping your business running. You can always do a recap later once things have died down. And I agree, HSBC are a complete PITA. It's far too much trouble even getting a personal account with them, so a business account would be far more effort than I would be looking for. Even Barclays wanted an in-person meeting (even though I've banked with them for decades) to open a business bank account. And the only date they had available was a month in the future. Yup, I cancelled that appointment. So, build redundancy into your business. At the very least a second bank account. It's easy, but as you can see, so very important. Just IMHO.

0x0 9y ago
I think it was an interesting article, and if I ever will have to deal with HSBC I'll be sure to think twice and twice over. Bad customer service shouldn't get a free pass.
Spearchucker 9y ago
I think you're being a bit hard on the guy. He had (as anyone would) a reasonable expectation of a banking service, coupled with acceptable customer service. Hindsight is 20/20, and what he describes is not the norm. As to "writing several thousand words" - the intent is not to sway the HSBC. It's to sway others who may be similarly stung by the HSBC.

Spearchucker 9y ago

I second not dealing with HSBC. They've been fined as mentioned in the article. They've also lost enormous amounts of data through mismanagement and to hackers, so have gone to the other extreme of "safeguarding" their data. I put safeguarding in quotes because a couple years ago I was responsible for the technical aspects of the acquisition of a small fin. book from HSBC. They did a lot of absolute dictation of governance hurdles which they "enforced" - again the quotes, because they came to our offices and nodded wisely when I rattled through our list of safeguards. But very clearly didn't understand a thing about the controls we said we were using. They also didn't ask for any evidence of the controls. That really surprised me, after all the noise they'd made leading up to that meeting. I don't rate them technically at all, so have to wonder what their business capability is like...

katet 9y ago
Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments) but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this? Particularly for the UK, since a lot of the time the HN crowd is US-centric :)
- Silhouette 9y ago
  Not to pick on you particularly (this is just where I got to in the comments) but who _would_ you recommend instead for others trying to avoid this? This is the problem. There are nightmare stories about basically every major bank and financial service, and while there are two sides to every story, a lot of them certainly look like well justified complaints about wildly inappropriate treatment. If someone was doing much better, we'd all be using them already. For now, I can only agree with the general advice many are giving: diversify, so you never have personal and business with the same organisation, never have all your essential accounts and cards with the same organisation, and so on.

forcer 9y ago

The story is very similar to what we experienced with HSBC exactly year ago. Its wrong on so many levels, in our case they sent us money via cheque so we got access to it in about 2 months. There is no point discussing anything with them, you are a small fish and have a business to run, not suing a bank or losing your focus on your main business. Since HSBC kicked us out we have multiple banks and if things go wrong we just move to another one.

Arathorn 9y ago

Does anyone have a datapoint on whether Barclays ever misbehaves like this for small business banking accounts?

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I don't know if they do this but I had poor service from Barclays, bad enough that I moved to Santander. Unfortunately, they were worse than Barclays so I then moved to HSBC. Interestingly they have been good so far, apart from closing my local branch.
dnh44 9y ago
I had my business account frozen by Barclays for similar reasons but they responded quickly and had me up and running again quickly. Basically I had an international customer making cash payments directly into my account at Barclays branches in the UK (I think he used some kind of underground international payments system). After a few times I got locked out of my account. They tried telling me it was an IT error. They opened the account back up in about a week but I was on the phone with them every day. I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like a bank. Oddly enough I tried to open an account with HSBC after that but because I've got a couple customers in "naughty" countries they refused to open the account. Their attitude makes a total mockery of all the advertising they seem to have plastered around at airports all over the world.
- dx034 9y ago
  > I now have multiple bank accounts and a currency broker that I also use like a bank. Transferwise? Any experience with that? Their offering sounds interesting.
  - dnh44 9y ago
    I use CurrencyFair and am very happy with them. Transferwise are a bit cheaper but they since have VC money and are likely to be cheap only temporarily I haven't tried them out.

neom 9y ago

HSBC has been an awful bank. My biggest startup regret.

calimac 9y ago

Banking in California is similarly dictatorial. I suggest opening a national account in Nevada. Like Wells Fargo, bank of the west, or any other flavor you like. Nevada banking privacy laws prohibit this shenanigans. They also protect you from inquiry by other foes. Too bad Nevada isn't a livable place to setup residency.

tweedledee 9y ago

This is an intentional strategy to increase the 'cost of regulation' so they can lobby against it and go back to accepting shoeboxes of cash through deposit windows.

jopsen 9y ago
Or they want to get rid of a business that doesn't borrow money... There is no money in banking services if they can't charge you extravagant fees. It's ironic :)
- MichaelDickens 9y ago
  If you deposit money into a bank, they can lend out that money and earn interest. They don't need to charge you fees to make money from your deposits.
  - jopsen 9y ago
    Interests is extremely low and following 2008 liquidity requirements in the EU are rather high. IMO, they could just do honest business and charge a flat fee for service :)
  - dx034 9y ago
    With current regulation they get punished for taking business deposits. Deposits from retail clients are "sticky", so can be realiably used for loans. Business deposits fluctuate so that the bank has to keep a large share as cash at negative interest rates.

maxehmookau 9y ago

UK banks are ridiculous and they're hastening their own demise to challenger banks with attitudes likes this. My bank (Barclays) suspended my account and blocked my cards after attempting to make a large payment. It was £2000 to the Student Loans Company. My account was a graduate account. All of the clever machine learning anti-fraud algorithms in the world couldn't figure that one out. Go figure.

djmobley 9y ago
Why would you make a voluntary payment to SLC (assuming it was voluntary as most repayments are through PAYE)? That is quite an unusual thing to do.
- maxehmookau 9y ago
  I'm self-employed and owed them the money that I would've otherwise paid through PAYE.
- gaius 9y ago
  I paid off SLC in a lump sum after getting a bonus one year. I think it's quite normal.
- pricechild 9y ago
  There's been a lot of advice shouted about that everyone should only make the minimum payments as it'll be cheaper when the debt is eventually written off - if you earn less than £X. That only works if the rules stay the same. I say it's a fair gamble that they won't and that many will wish they paid them off earlier.
  - tome 9y ago
    Then pay off the balance in full as soon as the rules change.
- Silhouette 9y ago
  It's not going to be unusual with the interest rates that students on the current generation of loans are now being charged. In fact, those might well be the most expensive debts a new graduate has. The whole thing about writing off part of the loan after several decades is mostly just smoke and mirrors; many people in graduate roles won't save much if anything that way, but they'll be paying lots of extra money that looks a lot like an extra 9% of marginal income tax except that somehow it mysteriously winds up belonging to a private company these days. I'm genuinely surprised that high street banks haven't started openly competing with the official student loans already, at least not as far as I've seen. The terms are so abusive for new students today that the banks could easily offer private student loans on significantly better terms for the students and still make a fortune themselves. Maybe they're just assuming -- not unreasonably -- that the whole student funding mess is going to blow up spectacularly within the next few years and they don't want to be caught in the blast when it happens.

ajmurmann 9y ago

More hidden cost from the war on drugs. What does it take to finally try to find another solution or arrangement?! I guess value voters in the US will never give up on this and we will live with this silly bootleggers and Baptists problem forever...

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

Hear, hear "PayPal, thank you. Your support was fantastic. I only wish HSBC were more like you."

sireat 9y ago
You know your bank is horrible when Paypal has the better support. Over the years here on HN we have heard a number of Paypal horror stories but it seems Paypal is somewhat responsive. Personally, I've had two lockdowns on my small time Paypal account(in 17 years) and in both cases I was able to resolve the matter within a few days. Both times involved faxing some information to them...

erikb 9y ago

If you interact with such a bigger company than your own it is normal that things can take 6-12 months. It's a good opportunity to harden your business against it. Nobody likes to do that, but if you want to survive you have to.

benmmurphy 9y ago

this is the problem with these regulations. i think know your customer is a good idea and the banks should be collecting this information but they shouldn't be responsible for making the decision. this should be a legal process run by the state. what you are seeing is what happens when due process is bypassed. if every bank follows the rules in a similar way and there is a good chance they do because they are acting in a way that is mandated by law then you can be effectively locked out of the banking system. you are being punished even though you have not been convicted of any crime by a court of law. i don't know what the solution is because the current implementation is quite efficient. but it does mean more innocent people are going to get burned.

edshiro 9y ago

This sucks. I've recently started contracting in the UK and opened a business bank account with HSBC. I was initially tempted by Tide (https://www.tide.co/ https://www.tide.co/), a new entrant with an attractive business banking product, but unfortunately they are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, so I thought twice... Maybe I should still open an account with them just in case... Wonder if anyone here has tried Tide here?

sthen 9y ago
FSCS is to give (limited) protection from a bank's bad investment/lending decisions. Tide operate using an emoney license which requires deposits to be held in a ring-fenced account and doesn't allow them to be lent/invested in that way. I'd be interested in other opinions but my understanding is that the risk FSCS protects against in the case of a bank can't happen under an emoney license anyway. (FSCS doesn't protect you from the problem this article was about either, and that seems much more likely to happen than one of the large banks being allowed to fail..) Their accounts are super easy to setup, if their fee structure fits how you work then it's probably worth having one even if it's "just in case" to keep your options open.
ENadyr 9y ago
Have been considering Tide, as we are applying for an HSBC Business bank account currently gulp. As Prepay Technologies Ltd is used to store the deposits I believe small companies ARE eligible for compensation under FSCS should Tide/PrePay run into problems.
mprev 9y ago
We have a Tide account, alongside a more conventional business bank account with a high street bank. Tide is not without its issues. For example, there's no way to accept payment from a non-UK account (no IBAN, BIC, SWIFT). It's also tied to a single person's mobile phone (even log-in to the web banking requires that one person's phone), even though we're a limited company, making it somewhat awkward for book-keeping purposes. The traditional banks are far from perfect but Tide is not right for every business just yet.

ig1 9y ago

You'll get the same treatment with the anti-fraud/kyc team at any bank. It's standard procedure to not disclose reasoning because it essentially helps fraudsters/criminals avoid checks. There can also be legal restrictions on what they can tell you. For example if they think you're committing money laundering it can be a criminal offence ("tipping off") for them to tell you that why they're investigating you. It might also not even be directly about your business, if for example one of your counter-parties (customer/supplier) is subject to criminal investigation it could result in you getting flagged up as a related party. It sucks when it happens but unfortunately it's a reality at every bank.

golemotron 9y ago

The horrible thing is that if you do maintain several business accounts and aren't careful about how you handle transfers between them you could be accused of structuring.

tome 9y ago
Structuring?
- dllthomas 9y ago
  Structuring is arranging your transactions with the intent of avoid additional oversight that would otherwise be required by law. For instance, if you know there's a rule that says every transaction over $X must be reported, so you split your $(3X) deposit into three separate deposits of size $X.

javiramos 9y ago

Does the UK have the equivalent of credit unions? I moved to a credit union about 5 years ago and it turned out to be a great decision (if you have simple banking needs). I know all the tellers at my local branch and if I have a serious issue, I can just talk directly to the CEO.

k-mcgrady 9y ago
Don't know if they're the same as yours but yes, we have credit unions. I think they were much more popular a generation or two ago however. I still know some older family members who use them.
tonyedgecombe 9y ago
We have building societies but they don't really service business customers.
TorKlingberg 9y ago
There are "Building Societies". They are mostly like banks but tend to be more local.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

atemerev 9y ago

Ironically, I know use Bitcoin and Bitcoin-linked debit cards to pay for Github, Amazon and the rest. Much easier than having all these calls from banks, and for less than 2000 €/month, KYC is very relaxed.

9to5isdead 9y ago
what btc-linked debit cards do you use if you don't mind me asking?
- atemerev 9y ago
  Bitwala
nolite 9y ago
Any recommendations on what you use?
- atemerev 9y ago
  I use Bitwala for around a year, and I am really happy with them so far

scandox 9y ago

> Then Apple failed. This was a strange one — it appears you actually need a valid payment card associated with your Apple account or you cannot download free apps or update existing ones. I've always found this to be an issue that makes using a MAC a non-starter for me. I observed when I first got one (cast off) and it really puts me off.

k-mcgrady 9y ago
Can anyone verify if this is true? I know it was in the past but AFAIK when the App Store took off they removed this restriction allowing you to select 'none' as payment method and still download free apps (otherwise at the time a lot of iPod Touch customers - i.e. kids/teenagers - would not be able to have use their products). The 'none' option still exists so I don't see why you couldn't download free apps with that selected.

richardknop 9y ago

What a horror story. I also have a business bank account in UK and after reading this article I immediately went and paid myself a hefty dividend just in case something like this happened. I will try to keep balance in the business bank account low, just enough to pay corporation tax, VAT and salary.

butler14 9y ago

I think the chap has been incredibly calm about the whole thing. I'd be in my local branch every day refusing to leave until they take the necessary steps to re-open the account. This really struck a nerve with me, as I've had similarly infuriating experiences with Natwest (though never to the point of my account being suspended). Passed from one team to another -- and even witnessing colleagues from different teams argue with each other, not realising that I wasn't properly on mute... I wish I had it recorded. Opening and administrating a simple small business bank account has been the single most unnecessarily difficult and frustrating thing about starting my own business. It's why I'm so passionate about someone FINALLY disrupting the circle jerk of the mainstream banking industry and the organisational, bureaucratic and regulatory clusterfuck that it has become.

zwetan 9y ago

> The only way to solve in the short term is to spread the risk across many banks, and never keep your money in one place. not only banks, you also have paypal, prepaid cards, etc. and not only "short term" eg. always avoid the "single point of failure" the real infuriating part here is that those problems occur on a business account (not a personal account), if you pay extra for business you should get extra/faster service/resolution.

petercooper 9y ago

We were just about to move our business banking over to HSBC, but this is appalling. I'm going to bring this up with the people we're dealing with and politely decline to go any further with the process for now.

libeclipse 9y ago

There better be some serious god damned compensation for that company at the end of this. Jesus Christ, I wouldn't even know where to start in estimating the damages.

willmacdonald 9y ago

I left HSBC and have been much happier with Bank Of Scotland small business account. I also get the feeling HSBC would like it if you were in debt, or had a loan. At least they would be making money from you!

cat199 9y ago
> At least they would be making money from you! Banks use deposits to fund loans to other customers. If you are depositing money in a bank, they are automatically making money off of you.

TheVinous 9y ago

I just can't believe this can happen in 2017... like if we were in the 90s. HSBC doesn't have a clue how a business works nowadays.

qubex 9y ago

HSBC — Highly Suspicious Banking Corporation

bnastic 9y ago

Just go to Cater Allen next time, thank me later.

ksec 9y ago

Slightly Off Topic: The other thing i notice is how we are dependent on "Monthly" services and subscription. iCloud, Photoshop etc. A lot of these could have been a product that you buy it one off.

jaclaz 9y ago
Exactly. An aspect of SaaS that needs to be considered.

rburhum 9y ago

Go to a lawyer right now and pay for him to draft a letter that you will sue for damages if they dont resolve this by the end of the week. Send it to legal and watch how quickly they solve it

JohnnyConatus 9y ago

Chase suspended my companies' account for largely the same reasons FYI. I highly recommend moving to a bank where you can have an actual personal relationship with your banker. I haven't used SVB but it can't be worse than the big banks.

rbp 9y ago
I had a relationship with my Chase banker but my business account was still frozen without notice. To restore access I needed to physically fly to the US and prove my identity again. To minimize this risk in future I opened accounts with multiple banks and split my transactions between them.

lemonycracket 9y ago

This is why Bitcoin, Monero and Ethereum will take over completely.

quadrangle 9y ago

Admittedly tangential but > I’m just another failed bank card to them, draining their systems. Well, you're not draining Adobe. You're running Photoshop locally, so you aren't costing them any bandwidth, unlike most of those other services. That rental model for software you run locally is even worse than most proprietary models. If Adobe weren't effectively a monopoly, I'd hope people would reject this nonsense.

tchaffee 9y ago

I have had bad experiences as a Barclays customer. Not as bad as what was described in this article, but things that would be unacceptable at even the worst American bank. I really get the feeling that banks in the UK only begrudgingly provide retail banking. And commercial banking for smaller businesses falls under that umbrella too. I don't have any hard evidence, but I would have to guess their real profits are in other banking sectors like investment banking, or with their bigger commercial accounts.

amelius 9y ago

Reminds me of those horror stories about PayPal. You can always start a website like this one: http://www.paypalsucks.com/ http://www.paypalsucks.com/

hesselink 9y ago
The interesting thing is that he thanks PayPal for their help in this case.

joemi 9y ago

I swore off HSBC years ago when they wronged me. Short version: They sold my account to another bank (!) that had a nearest branch 100+ miles away(!), and wouldn't let me opt out or close my account before the transfer! Long version: I had a personal (not company) bank account with HSBC, but the closed my local branch and informed me that my account would be transferred to a different bank. I had no idea they could do that, especially since HSBC itself wasn't closing. But it gets worse: The nearest branch of the bank they would transfer my account to was not even within my state but the next state over, 100+ miles away, and I don't own a car. So that would not do, at all. I saw received a notification about this just a few days before the transfer would happen. I went to an HSBC branch to ask about it and found out they supposedly had sent an opt out form a month or two earlier, which I never received. The only thing I got was what they sent a few days before the switch, which included "welcome to your new bank" material. Since the switch hadn't happened yet, I asked to opt out, and was told that wasn't possible. So then I asked to close my account, and was told they couldn't do that! My account was still and HSBC account, but they refused to let me close my account! The branch manager told me I had to close my account with the new bank after the transfer. I could not comprehend how I was standing in an HSBC bank, with an HSBC account, and they would not let me close my account. Made no sense to me at all. So I did the only thing left I could think of: I withdrew all of my money in that account and opened up a new bank account with another bank down the road. I called the bank that HSBC had sold my account to to cancel the account, but they wouldn't let me since it wasn't their account yet (of course). So I waited a few days and called them again to cancel the account. They wouldn't let me. I was told I had to go to a bank branch and cancel it in person. I explained the whole situation about the unstoppable account transfer and the fact that I was not going to rent a car and travel 100+ miles just to cancel an account with no money in it (which I needed to cancel since they would charge low-balance fees). And I was told the same thing. I ended up having to call them several times over the course of the next few days before I managed to get them to cancel my account and undo the low-balance fees I was charged. About a week later I had the paper documentation of account closure that I made them send me, thereby finally ending my tale and cementing HSBC as a company I will never ever do business with again in any fashion.

vizzah 9y ago

At the moment banking is a total disaster. Personal accounts, under KYC disguise, are being questioned on "suspicious" £2-3k transactions sent between family members. Banks fraud altering systems are so inconceivably dumb, that they can't recognize two persons both having bank accounts at their same institution, both living on the same address as being part of a household, not to bother questioning them why they send cash to each other.(Lloyds Bank, UK). Business banking is getting totally destroyed by fanatical and full of nonsense administration of KYC regulations, where banks want to verify not only the invoices and reasons for every transaction, but the underlying composition of every amount and how it was earned and why. And why the sum earned is higher, than what they think it should be. Their reviews of business models and revenue generation processes is more strict and intruding, than the figures some investors consider enough to provide business with funding.(Rietumu bank, Latvia). At the same time many large European banks are losing their ability to transact in USD, after bank-correspondents are leaving them (Deutsche bank). SEPA transfers in EUR is what is left for many businesses as they are cut from making any international payments in non-EUR currency. The situation is beyond worrying. I hope there are some sane banks left. Possibly smaller banks, friendly to online businesses, who realize that when you receive affiliate payments from Booking.com NV, you are not laundering money and it would be totally moronic to questions those transfers. Please comment if you can recommend such.

woodylondon 9y ago

Another example of UK banking going wrong is the story of a number of companies including a Noel Edmunds (deal or deal fame) that went under after massive fraud caused "allegedly" by bank staff! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-edmonds-compensation-claim-hbos-lloyds https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/25/noel-edmond...

slowwwclap 9y ago

Fuck them. Move on. You are perpetuating this mess. Businesses do periodically change banks or account numbers if their account has been compromised by fraud. (This recently happened to my family's business bank account... fraudulent checks were produced - so we created a new checking account.) You can re-automate all your payments within a day or two on your new account with your NEW BANK. The silver lining is you can assess all these monthly charges - and possibly cut some unneeded services - or upgrade some which you would benefit from. MOST IMPORTANTLY - Find a bank that is headquartered locally - so you can go see the people who work at the bank occasionally - build relationships - and avoid this type of abuse. If the local bank is sold to a bigger bank - jump ship again. This sounds like a toxic business relationship and your only TEMPORARY loss is the cash they are holding in your account. You should have access to emergency funds in another bank account - and if you don't - learn that lesson now. You are ultimately responsible for everything and service providers are just that - service providers. Learn to fire and hire them as often as needed.

thrownAway09876 9y ago

As a tech business owner, I learned the hard way that you must pick a bank to match your business. If you are a small shop, don't bank with large banks. Find a local / regional bank, go physically there, develop a relationship with the bank. You have absolutely no financial leverage and no meaningful relationship with a large bank and that's not in the best interest to your business.

fryingpan 9y ago

I worked at HSBC for a little bit. We often hear the term "too big to fail" in relation to big banks. This place is too big to succeed. I was there supposedly to implement state-of-the-art trading systems and processes. I left after 2+ years with little to show. The pace of progress is glacial. Managers are scared to change the status quo because of fears of rocking the boat. Embarking on new projects risks making them look bad if the projects don't reach expectations. One of the problems is HSBC's DPA, deferred prosecution agreement, with the Justice Department. Basically, HSBC needs to operate on a clean track record for 5+ years and the US government will avoid fining them even more. The result is a culture of fear combined with zero innovation. Just stay the course, get paid nicely in your nice cushy jobs. Screw over your clients in the meantime if you have to.

cm2187 9y ago

As a banker, I am the first agree that banks offer an absolutely shit service, and the story in this article is only too common. But one should keep in mind that this is the direct consequence of over-regulation. Regulations creates massive barriers to entry, through the complexity of the laws and regulation banks have to deal with and the amount of capital required to open a bank. As a result, no competition, and therefore the sort of monopolistic behavior that you normally observe in nationalized industries, where your bank doesn't give a shit whether you are satisfied or not. In addition to that, most western countries deputized the banks to act as law enforcement under the threat of multi-billion fines. For certain banks, pretty much all profits from the past 5-7y have been nationalized through fines. As a business, banks will go to any extremity for these fines to cease, even it it means burning a few clients (or employees). We must like the consequences of what we wish for.

hartator 9y ago

> but I appreciate they had to check Nah, you shouldn't. "Know your customers" is BS, restrain your freedoms, and don't stop real frauders.

hartator 9y ago

Now your account has been restored, empty it out and fund another account in another bank. HSBC is one of the worst bank.

rdiddly 9y ago

Yet another example of the sad state of affairs that engaging companies or governments directly through their established, official channels no longer works as well as going (or threatening to go) to Twitter with it. Is it acceptable that a Twitter account and the ability to publicly Twitter-shame is a prerequisite for decent service? Is it acceptable that it's a prerequisite for democracy? It seems utterly ridiculous to me.

jgalt212 9y ago

it blows my mind that basically any financial crime committed by a big shop results in a fine (and more regulation/compliance) instead of jail time for the bad actors. of course, if the crime is committed by a penny ante fraudster, then the DOJ is not afraid to put them in jail. https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-Criminals/dp/1501121367 https://www.amazon.com/Chickenshit-Club-Justice-Department-C...

JohnTHaller 9y ago

I had to fight with Citibank for about 3 months to get them not to suspend my business account after I'd been a customer for 10 years due to the new "know your customer" bs. The "know your customer" regulations are about as anti-small business as they can be. Doesn't matter that you have an LLC in the State of NY that's been active for 17 years, we won't let you keep your account without a signed and notarized letter from your accountant or lawyer stating exactly what your business and income is from. Doesn't matter if you don't have a lawyer or accountant because you handle it yourself via thinks like Quickbooks, go pay one a couple grand to look through your books for the last 10 years and then sign the notarized letter. If you're having trouble with an HSBC or Citibank, try a smaller bank or a credit union. They'll generally have policies catering more to the local market. The local credit union had no such issues like above. A smaller bank like TD Bank just wanted to make sure you were registered with the state and do a premises visit (and visiting your apt/home was also acceptable for home-based businesses).

tedmc 9y ago

Porter's Five Forces. Never let a single organization be a supplier for 100% of critical infrastructure. As I write this, I'm reminded it's been a while since I've looked through everything to make sure I'm not.

inovica 9y ago

Hi. I run SourceGuardian.com. Today I had exactly the same experience!! Whilst I was in the States for 5 weeks I tried to log in to my online banking and received the same message. I just presumed it was their security system recognising I was in the USA and therefore I decided to deal with it when home. Arrived back and made a call, but was told I needed to go to a brand. Went to a branch and they told me they could not help. Eventually I went to another branch and found a sympathetic business manager. Finally I talked with HSBC on the phone again but they say that I must do another call with them, despite me doing one already. My story is exactly the same although I'm just starting - already I have had payments denied and have been told that all funds have been frozen. Of course they're accepting deposits, I just can't take any money out!! Its a nightmare. Tomorrow I am going to see what I can do and who I can call to try to resolve this.

SJoelKatz 9y ago

This was the entirely predictable result of regulations on financial institutions that have become more and more idiotic. Imagine if we had decided to fight drug dealers and terrorism by prohibiting any restaurant or grocery store from knowingly selling food to drug dealers and terrorists. We would see this same nonsense with food that we see with finance. If we're going to fight drug dealers and terrorists, it shouldn't be by trying to push them to the fringes of our financial system, it should be putting them in jail. https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash https://steemit.com/politics/@joelkatz/the-war-on-cash

enscr 9y ago

This happened to a friend a few months ago. He has a SaaS business, working remotely out of France (uses Stripe + US bank accounts as he lived in US for sometime). One day suddenly, he got locked out of his bank account (a major US bank) and the only way to restore the access was to walk into a branch physically. This meant dropping all work and flying to US at a day's notice, assuming you are granted a Visa. He was fortunate that the customer service listened (though they were not the politest people on the planet). After jumping a few hoops and following some unconventional methods of verification, the access was restored, but the situation was scary for a few days.

anonu 9y ago

This is a byproduct of HSBC's deferred prosecution agreement with the DoJ... They are overly cautious on pretty much everything.

nfriedly 9y ago

Wow, so bad they make PayPal look good! I have my business accounts with my local credit union[1] and would never recommend a bank - any bank - if you could possibly avoid it. [1]: https://www.wpcu.coop/ https://www.wpcu.coop/

shermozle 9y ago

"what it was really doing was checking I’m not a drug cartel or rogue nation." If they decide you are a drug cartel or rogue nation, you will be upgraded to Most Favoured Customer status and assigned a personal account manager. If requested the dimensions for the aperture of teller windows will be provided so you can custom manufacture boxes to fit the maximum amount of dirty cash through them in the shortest time possible.

koonsolo 9y ago

Be your own bank ;). Another nice use case for bitcoin.

dandare 9y ago

At this point, I believe they harras the small customers to cover up the real corruption. In the meantime: (UK at centre of secret $3bn Azerbaijani money laundering and lobbying scheme)[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-centre-of-secret-3bn-azerbaijani-money-laundering-and-lobbying-scheme https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/04/uk-at-centre-o...]

rbp 9y ago

I had a somewhat similar experience with Chase - account locked without notice, wouldn't tell me what was wrong, couldn't get paid by clients. The only way I was able to solve the problem was physically flying to the US and proving my identity (again) in person. Fortunately my credit card was through a different bank so didn't lose access to third party services.

lobo_tuerto 9y ago

Amazon does the same thing, once they lock up your account there is nothing much you can do except make a lot of noise and hope you'll be heard. I had a horrible experience with a buyer account, they locked it up, and I didn't even receive a notification about it (I thought it was hacked...). The problem is that I had some packages on their way and I could not access any tracking info, etc. After a couple of distressing days, access got restored with no explanation as to why it was locked in the first place, and I still have to hear from them what happened.

BrandoElFollito 9y ago

There is something magical in how people are attached to their bank, at least here in France (but it looks from the article that this is the same in the UK). Just switch banks! I never payed for a bank account (in several countries where I had an account while living there). When Credit Mutuel decided to do my free account, I went to them and told them that either they go back or I leave. They did not believe me so I left on the spot. It is so simple today to change that it should be like changing the brand of cereals. I am now with a bank which just works and very happy, one just needs to try until they get the right one.