7 ms·

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

sillysaurus3 9y ago
I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.
- ianai 9y ago
  I think we're fully in the "see what little you can pay someone to get them to do a job" optimization mode. The marginal cost=marginal benefit argument doesn't seem to apply anywhere. On the contrary, if you're actively making something (burgers, computers) then you're usually not paid enough to actually consume those things on a regular schedule. I think that's a symptom of an emergent caste system.
  - BurningFrog 9y ago
    So each Boeing worker should be able to buy their own 787 Dreamliner in any fair society?
    - WaxProlix 9y ago
      Do you believe that to be a reasonable, charitable interpretation of what OP said?
      - BurningFrog 9y ago
        I believe OP repeated a good sounding slogan ("workers should be able to buy the things they produce!") they had heard, without having spent any thought to what it would mean in reality. My example is meant to show that principle is absurd, not that OP actually believes in that consequence. I admit the point could have been delivered friendlier. As for charitability, we are all prone to agree to what fits with what we already believe without critical thought. This time OP slipped up, many times it's been me.
        ianai 9y ago
        That's not how I perceived your comment. You took the statement and came up with another statement and claimed it was a logical extension of the first. But it was not faithful to the original statement. Nor was that my only point. You essentially found a logical exploit and dumped the rest of my meaning. That's violent.
        tjr225 9y ago
        Agreed
        SmirkingRevenge 9y ago
        Well, there are "reductio ad absurdum" arguments - which attempt to show that an argument is bad because it leads to absurd conclusions. And as its fancy latin name suggests, its as old as the ages, and is often a reasonable form of argument.
        Brotkrumen 9y ago
        The poster "reductio ad absurdum"ed after he "non sequitur"ed. A valid reductio requires applying the principle of charity first though. We do need a Latin phrase for the principle of charity!
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        intended 9y ago
        Ok, so a worker makes a part of a plane - not the whole plane. Should the group of workers be able to buy the whole plane? I don't see the substantial and valid point in your rebuttal. Care to elucidate in the spirit of the original point?
        BurningFrog 9y ago
        My core substantial point is that there should be no connection between the unit price of what a worker produces and their wage. To take an example at the other end, should someone working in the paper clip industry be happy as long as they can afford to buy one paper clip? I can understand an emotional reaction to people working on goods just outside the reach of their spending power. But if you think about it, those two numbers have nothing to do with each other.
    - ianai 9y ago
      If you were the sole laborer on it, sure.
    - gaius 9y ago
      Workers should certainly be able to afford to fly for leisure, yes. Many can now, whereas not that long ago only the "jet set" could afford to.
      - pmiller2 9y ago
        I'm not so sure most people can fly for leisure. Setting aside the miseries of air travel, and whether it constitutes "leisure" or not, according to an AP-NORC[0] survey, 43% of Americans were not vacationing this past summer, and, of them, 49% cite cost as the main reason. Only 12% of non-vacationers said they weren't vacationing in the summer because they were planning on taking a vacation another time of year. Putting that all together, 38% of Americans say they simply can't take a vacation for such reasons as cost, and "can't get time off." Given our culture of consumer debt, this doesn't speak to whether people can afford to vacation, just whether they intend to do so or not. And, it doesn't really break down flying vs other modes of travel to vacation destinations. Nonetheless, I think this suggests that "many" people, in fact, cannot "afford" to fly for leisure. [0]: http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/Americans-Plans-for-Summer-Vacation.aspx http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/Americans-Plans-for-Sum...
    - imtringued 9y ago
      If a single worker is capable of making an entire 787 in a single year then why not? If they are getting paid less than a 787 that just means they aren't producing entire 787s, they are producing parts of a 787.
    - fuzzfactor 9y ago
      Good concept here where there should not be misunderstanding. When Henry Ford attempted to build the first commodity private motorcar for the middle class worker whilst also paying his assembly line workers enough to afford one of their own from their wages alone it was by design a very delicate balance. The idea was to enable someone, even without significant resources or higher education, who had the aptitude and is a hard worker to become an employee and in a measurable way start to join the middle class their own self. The assembly line was engineered to be profitable enough to accomplish this to begin with. What this meant was being able to gradually afford a house, a car, a spouse, and kids on one worker's income of course. Could be accelerated with overtime. Upward mobility financially by productive labor alone without having to receive a promotion in the workplace, or having to rely on family or other resources to become established. Ford's factory as a system was created to be a value- and money-making-machine with everyone involved moving ahead together. This element of mass-production of a new commodity for a large target class while simulaneously enabling new workers to enter the target class from their labor alone is one of the things that allows it to scale so well, and when this element is compromised the scaling may be unsteady and/or unsustainable. This element is also not very present on the Boeing assembly line. Mass-produced commercial aircraft are still commodities but no middle class person is expected to purchase one using their labor alone. Balance is required but at a different pivot point. With Ford starting at a 0X target the degree of balance should be more obvious and easier to maintain. Boeing is a good example of the opposite extreme, those aircraft are so expensive who knows what multiple would be required just to get something like that off the ground. The higher the labor multiple like this you would think the more difficult the balance would be to maintain, but of course any multiple is huge compared to zero. And there's no more benchmark for anybody since the US dollar is so compromised now, a worker may have to do lots of overtime just to afford a car that's reliable enough to get to work in the first place, which can keep a home itself out of reach for their forseeable future. Anyway, there have always been craftsworkers who build unique things for royalty, others who mass-produce commodities intended for the middle class, and anything in between. Either way the most successful can sell all that they can make. New cars and aircraft are not designed for those whose resources are so low that they are below middle class. Such low-resource individuals can only maintain economically by doing without the full-price commodities of the middle class, substituting with second-hand and surplus commodities when possible. For them, higher expenditure levels can be unsound but are often entertained in order to give the appearance of full middle-class status. For instance the purchase of a brand new car or brand new home instead of second-hand may provide some degree of comfort but can seriously hamper any true progress up into the full middle class, especially for someone who is making a credit purchase. You're not truly in the middle class unless you can actually afford to pay cash for the true middle class commodities. Extravagances on credit maybe but not necessities or common commodities. Seems to me that when assembly lines are truly bettering the wealth of their workers, everything goes well until you can no longer sell all that you can make. Uh-oh. Employers are always going to have the upper hand, but during cutbacks even the truly generous payers can seldom recover anything significant by limiting employee compensation without being quite destructive to the structure that the founder had built. Employee cutbacks beyond a certain level, or in the case of employers who are on the edge by paying "market" or "competitive" rates, will end up generally halting employee's upward mobility in a tangible way. Even under the most severe conditions, shareholders with strengh and conviction are supposed to be there to absorb almost all of the financial fluctuations. Capitalists who fail to intentionally restore prosperity to their employees as soon as possible seem to be a great source of opportunity for a union to become competitive in offering more to the employees in bulk than the actual employer is doing on their own at the time. Balancing the employee's entire financial opportunity versus a relatively small percentage of the bottom line is not easy even when it's intentionally generous. Employee prosperity is always at the discretion of the involved capitalist, and the labor market is suposed to be set by comparison to how productive those workers would be if in business individually or teaming in a way that allows them to absorb almost all of the gains or losses from operations themselves. Looks like without undue extraneous influence, capitalism involving other people's money would not be as rewarding compared to plain entrepreneurialism where the worker has the resources to fund the venture independently of other people's money. How absurd is that?
  - savanaly 9y ago
    What reason do we have to think that for e.g. Google, marginal cost of hiring another engineer is not equal to the marginal benefit? Be careful not to confuse marginal benefit with average benefit, which as for almost all inputs in the economy, is always higher than marginal benefit.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  > Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. If you really believe in what you are saying, then go ahead and build your own company and grab the business for yourself.
  - tiggybear 9y ago
    Serious question: what do you believe value is? Do you think it's more related to how much you can sell your output for on the open market or is it how much leverage you have/your ability to extract capital? A mix? I've been in enough meetings with sales, marketing, and execs to know that they see value as "how much can we get someone to pay for this." So why is it, when labor applies this same concept to themselves people get really defensive? Who cares if you're making 100k, 1million, or 10million a year. If you can extract more capital for your product than your current rates then you are "undercharging", as most business folks have told me. And good business also means using every legal trick in the book to extract more capital. Whether that be locking customers in at start-up stages so when they grow you have more leverage and they're forced to use your services barring a massive investment. Or unionizing so you have more leverage to negotiate the return on your product. I mean, if a business was going to lock themselves into only one paying customer they would set up a million different protection clauses.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >>I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. I know you don't agree with it, so I'm not ascribing this to you, but of the set of people who believe that, then why are so many startups failing left and right and laying off workers because their products don't hit critical mass? Millions of dollars paid out to the workers who churned out a failed product. Their downside is being out of a job. The entrepreneur's downside can be and often is much larger.
  - Aeolun 9y ago
    Larger? You mean, they find another investor and start a new failed company? I don't know, but one of the few things these people seem perfectly competent at is pitching.
NathanWilliams 9y ago
I assume the article is talking about the vast majority of employees who aren't software developers...
booleandilemma 9y ago
I think they do, yes. A few generations of kids growing up learning programming from kindergarten onwards is going to ensure that programming is put on par with welding, carpentry, painting, etc. Those of us commenting here today may not be around to see it happen, but I believe it will happen eventually. For now things are good. We got lucky and we found ourselves in a relatively new profession that not a lot of people are trained in and we're making good money (and some of us don't even have college degrees)
- vacri 9y ago
  It really isn't. Programming is still a niche skill - we've had a generation now that's grown up with their eyes glued to computer screens and now smartphones, and the average user still isn't any good at troubleshooting, let alone programming. Also, the trades historically haven't been particularly well-paid, but that's not the case anymore.
danharaj 9y ago
Yes. Our work shapes society. We need systems that allow us to have a say in the ethical and political implications of our labor.
chrismealy 9y ago
Yes, not for themselves but for society. If you like the way Germany, The Netherlands, and the Nordics do things, you should know that these countries have very high levels of union membership, up to 80%. Their broad labor movements created the societies they have today. Unions in America never had that much strength and never accomplished as much.
- tajen 9y ago
  It's not only membership levels, it's cleverness. In France unions are often explicitly anticapitalist. There's little you can do to work with them. Most people believe their pay could be doubled without harming the company, because there's a stash somewhere [1]. Whereas in Germany, unions seem to have a clever dialogue with employers. Probably most people have been educated to economics, in a pro-capitalist way? [1] Ironically they're not so wrong: Because of our mandatory contributions, our compound tax rate is 63%.
- logicchains 9y ago
  Yet pay for software developers in those companies is so much less than for those in America.
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    If you account for rent in SF and healthcare, I am not sure it is so much less.
chasing 9y ago
Yes.
downrightmike 9y ago
Hell yes http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-job...
swalsh 9y ago
Yes, we need better conditions in the workplace, do you know how many people in the HEALTHCARE industry of all places go to work every day and have to touch another person's MUMPS? Often times they take kids right out of college. Sickening.
goobynight 9y ago
We have it ok in comparison to "really bad or bad", but it could be better.
joe_the_user 9y ago
A minority of developers get the rockstar wages of Silicon Valley, the majority are paid typical middle class saleries from 25 to 35, a substantial number have been tossed away by 50. Moreover, a substantial number work in such high stress situations that they have to get out after a bit and suffer serious burn-out as a result. A union, professional association or better labor standards might be able to address all this.
wsc981 9y ago
I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work. So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well.
- icelancer 9y ago
  >>So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well. That's fine. I'm an entrepreneur as well and I make my own rules. But there are a lot of people who just want to cash a check and do the work put in front of them. I employ a lot of them. And they're great. They have no aspirations to strike out, to deal with healthcare as a freelancer (have you tried being a father of two with kids or a spouse with chronic medical issues?), to deal with financial windfalls and insecurities, and so forth.
- gozur88 9y ago
  >I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work. Did you? Are you ignoring all the work that went into landing the contract? If your work was really the major effort the smart thing to do would be to strike out on your own.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    >> So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). I'm pretty sure that wasn't edited in in response to your comment, since it's quoted in another comment much older than yours is.
gaius 9y ago
Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks In a few hotspots yes. But the vast majority of programmers are just office workers like any other. But unlike HR and so on, they face the threat of offshoring... It's like saying all musicians are highly paid and have loads of perks because look at Jay-Z.
pdkl95 9y ago
Unions are useful for more than just better pay. If that's a concern, charter some new type of union-like organization that doesn't touch salary/wages. One of the most important reasons for unions is to fight back against abusive employment practices that are unrelated to employee compensation. While software development doesn't have anywhere close to the problems mining or factory jobs, we it might be a good idea to address the culture of working long hours with chronic sleep problems. A union could also fight unfair hiring practices like age discrimination or the scandal from a couple years about hiring collusion to between several Silicon Valley companies.
- tboyd47 9y ago
  I was just having this conversation on HN about a week ago. I think a union for web developers would be a fantastic idea. Like you said, not necessarily for negotiating pay, but that could be part of it. It would be nice if a developer could rise from being paid close to minimum wage to an average software engineer's salary without having to switch jobs 6 times. As an industry we need to address the problem of endemic project failure. Companies who aren't in the software industry generally don't understand how to produce software. Usually it falls on individual developers to teach the rest of the organization how to do things like write stories, build a deployment pipeline, etc. How to trust programmers to do things at their own pace and not resort to cracking the whip all the time. Anyone who's done this knows it's an uphill battle. Usually programmers just choose to leave a dysfunctional org rather than stick around and get punished for trying to do their job. Then you have dying projects full of code no one understands or wants to understand. It would be great if we could come together to take control of our industry and really turn it into a profession. If it's what people want, we could try to engineer a profession where it's reasonable for a developer to expect to hold the same job (or at least work on the same codebase - even as a contractor) for at least 5 years without a major upheaval. Or one where you can expect to use at least some of what you learn in university / boot camp on the job. Or one where workers are expected to have different output levels and they don't fear being let go for not being a natural fast learner like John. Things we don't have that other professions take for granted. All these things aren't going to happen in the current dev culture, but would in fact be beneficial developments not just for employees but for employers as well. If we don't do this type of thing ourselves, companies like Google, Amazon, and Facebook will remake the industry in their image as they have done and are doing. This will result in a great worker pool ready for them to draw from, and a broken industry for everyone else.
Zarath 9y ago
There's still a tremendous imbalance of power. I don't see why people wouldn't want to leverage their collective strength by unionizing...
alkonaut 9y ago
Well yes and no. Unions for white collar workers are pretty different from "traditional" unions. I'm a software developer making nearly $100k (That's probably $200k in Silicon Valley dollars) and I'm a union member. Now, my union isn't a blue collar union in the traditional sense. My union is just an employer organization to e.g. push mandatory contract contents like flexible pension age, insurance issues etc. It's a white collar union. They don't negotiate salaries for their members. If I ever end up in a situation where I need legal help, e.g. I'm quarantined when leaving an employer and think it's unfair - I can ask my union for legal help. They also provide an unemployment insurance to bolster the public insurance for their members (if the public provides 50% of income, the union one adds to that so get maybe 80 or 90% of your income). Blue collar unions on the other hand represent people who are replacable. The union is their only way of achieving bargaining power against employers. Blue collar unions typically negotiate wages and raises for all members at the company. Blue collar unions may have to go on strike etc, whereas white collar unions rarely do. That means my union fee might be 1/4 of what a blue collar union costs per month, since the white collar unions don't need a stash of money to live through a strike. So these are fundamentally different organisations. My union is more like a legal aid + insurance deal that costs me a few bucks per month. Now: you could argue that with my relative power over my employer, shouldn't I be able to just negotiate this myself? I should be able to retire when I want? I should be able to just hire a lawyer when I need one? And buy unemployment insurance at market rate? Well yes, I suppose. But the insurance is actually pretty good valuye for union members (we are considered less likely to be unemployed so the premium is much lower) and I'm happy to buy all that stuff as a package deal. I like the idea of someone representing my group and not just me.
- downrightmike 9y ago
  Which union?

I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.

ianai 9y ago
I think we're fully in the "see what little you can pay someone to get them to do a job" optimization mode. The marginal cost=marginal benefit argument doesn't seem to apply anywhere. On the contrary, if you're actively making something (burgers, computers) then you're usually not paid enough to actually consume those things on a regular schedule. I think that's a symptom of an emergent caste system.
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  So each Boeing worker should be able to buy their own 787 Dreamliner in any fair society?
  - WaxProlix 9y ago
    Do you believe that to be a reasonable, charitable interpretation of what OP said?
    - BurningFrog 9y ago
      I believe OP repeated a good sounding slogan ("workers should be able to buy the things they produce!") they had heard, without having spent any thought to what it would mean in reality. My example is meant to show that principle is absurd, not that OP actually believes in that consequence. I admit the point could have been delivered friendlier. As for charitability, we are all prone to agree to what fits with what we already believe without critical thought. This time OP slipped up, many times it's been me.
      - ianai 9y ago
        That's not how I perceived your comment. You took the statement and came up with another statement and claimed it was a logical extension of the first. But it was not faithful to the original statement. Nor was that my only point. You essentially found a logical exploit and dumped the rest of my meaning. That's violent.
        tjr225 9y ago
        Agreed
        SmirkingRevenge 9y ago
        Well, there are "reductio ad absurdum" arguments - which attempt to show that an argument is bad because it leads to absurd conclusions. And as its fancy latin name suggests, its as old as the ages, and is often a reasonable form of argument.
        Brotkrumen 9y ago
        The poster "reductio ad absurdum"ed after he "non sequitur"ed. A valid reductio requires applying the principle of charity first though. We do need a Latin phrase for the principle of charity!
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - intended 9y ago
        Ok, so a worker makes a part of a plane - not the whole plane. Should the group of workers be able to buy the whole plane? I don't see the substantial and valid point in your rebuttal. Care to elucidate in the spirit of the original point?
        BurningFrog 9y ago
        My core substantial point is that there should be no connection between the unit price of what a worker produces and their wage. To take an example at the other end, should someone working in the paper clip industry be happy as long as they can afford to buy one paper clip? I can understand an emotional reaction to people working on goods just outside the reach of their spending power. But if you think about it, those two numbers have nothing to do with each other.
  - ianai 9y ago
    If you were the sole laborer on it, sure.
  - gaius 9y ago
    Workers should certainly be able to afford to fly for leisure, yes. Many can now, whereas not that long ago only the "jet set" could afford to.
    - pmiller2 9y ago
      I'm not so sure most people can fly for leisure. Setting aside the miseries of air travel, and whether it constitutes "leisure" or not, according to an AP-NORC[0] survey, 43% of Americans were not vacationing this past summer, and, of them, 49% cite cost as the main reason. Only 12% of non-vacationers said they weren't vacationing in the summer because they were planning on taking a vacation another time of year. Putting that all together, 38% of Americans say they simply can't take a vacation for such reasons as cost, and "can't get time off." Given our culture of consumer debt, this doesn't speak to whether people can afford to vacation, just whether they intend to do so or not. And, it doesn't really break down flying vs other modes of travel to vacation destinations. Nonetheless, I think this suggests that "many" people, in fact, cannot "afford" to fly for leisure. [0]: http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/Americans-Plans-for-Summer-Vacation.aspx http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/Americans-Plans-for-Sum...
  - imtringued 9y ago
    If a single worker is capable of making an entire 787 in a single year then why not? If they are getting paid less than a 787 that just means they aren't producing entire 787s, they are producing parts of a 787.
  - fuzzfactor 9y ago
    Good concept here where there should not be misunderstanding. When Henry Ford attempted to build the first commodity private motorcar for the middle class worker whilst also paying his assembly line workers enough to afford one of their own from their wages alone it was by design a very delicate balance. The idea was to enable someone, even without significant resources or higher education, who had the aptitude and is a hard worker to become an employee and in a measurable way start to join the middle class their own self. The assembly line was engineered to be profitable enough to accomplish this to begin with. What this meant was being able to gradually afford a house, a car, a spouse, and kids on one worker's income of course. Could be accelerated with overtime. Upward mobility financially by productive labor alone without having to receive a promotion in the workplace, or having to rely on family or other resources to become established. Ford's factory as a system was created to be a value- and money-making-machine with everyone involved moving ahead together. This element of mass-production of a new commodity for a large target class while simulaneously enabling new workers to enter the target class from their labor alone is one of the things that allows it to scale so well, and when this element is compromised the scaling may be unsteady and/or unsustainable. This element is also not very present on the Boeing assembly line. Mass-produced commercial aircraft are still commodities but no middle class person is expected to purchase one using their labor alone. Balance is required but at a different pivot point. With Ford starting at a 0X target the degree of balance should be more obvious and easier to maintain. Boeing is a good example of the opposite extreme, those aircraft are so expensive who knows what multiple would be required just to get something like that off the ground. The higher the labor multiple like this you would think the more difficult the balance would be to maintain, but of course any multiple is huge compared to zero. And there's no more benchmark for anybody since the US dollar is so compromised now, a worker may have to do lots of overtime just to afford a car that's reliable enough to get to work in the first place, which can keep a home itself out of reach for their forseeable future. Anyway, there have always been craftsworkers who build unique things for royalty, others who mass-produce commodities intended for the middle class, and anything in between. Either way the most successful can sell all that they can make. New cars and aircraft are not designed for those whose resources are so low that they are below middle class. Such low-resource individuals can only maintain economically by doing without the full-price commodities of the middle class, substituting with second-hand and surplus commodities when possible. For them, higher expenditure levels can be unsound but are often entertained in order to give the appearance of full middle-class status. For instance the purchase of a brand new car or brand new home instead of second-hand may provide some degree of comfort but can seriously hamper any true progress up into the full middle class, especially for someone who is making a credit purchase. You're not truly in the middle class unless you can actually afford to pay cash for the true middle class commodities. Extravagances on credit maybe but not necessities or common commodities. Seems to me that when assembly lines are truly bettering the wealth of their workers, everything goes well until you can no longer sell all that you can make. Uh-oh. Employers are always going to have the upper hand, but during cutbacks even the truly generous payers can seldom recover anything significant by limiting employee compensation without being quite destructive to the structure that the founder had built. Employee cutbacks beyond a certain level, or in the case of employers who are on the edge by paying "market" or "competitive" rates, will end up generally halting employee's upward mobility in a tangible way. Even under the most severe conditions, shareholders with strengh and conviction are supposed to be there to absorb almost all of the financial fluctuations. Capitalists who fail to intentionally restore prosperity to their employees as soon as possible seem to be a great source of opportunity for a union to become competitive in offering more to the employees in bulk than the actual employer is doing on their own at the time. Balancing the employee's entire financial opportunity versus a relatively small percentage of the bottom line is not easy even when it's intentionally generous. Employee prosperity is always at the discretion of the involved capitalist, and the labor market is suposed to be set by comparison to how productive those workers would be if in business individually or teaming in a way that allows them to absorb almost all of the gains or losses from operations themselves. Looks like without undue extraneous influence, capitalism involving other people's money would not be as rewarding compared to plain entrepreneurialism where the worker has the resources to fund the venture independently of other people's money. How absurd is that?
- savanaly 9y ago
  What reason do we have to think that for e.g. Google, marginal cost of hiring another engineer is not equal to the marginal benefit? Be careful not to confuse marginal benefit with average benefit, which as for almost all inputs in the economy, is always higher than marginal benefit.
ekianjo 9y ago
> Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. If you really believe in what you are saying, then go ahead and build your own company and grab the business for yourself.
- tiggybear 9y ago
  Serious question: what do you believe value is? Do you think it's more related to how much you can sell your output for on the open market or is it how much leverage you have/your ability to extract capital? A mix? I've been in enough meetings with sales, marketing, and execs to know that they see value as "how much can we get someone to pay for this." So why is it, when labor applies this same concept to themselves people get really defensive? Who cares if you're making 100k, 1million, or 10million a year. If you can extract more capital for your product than your current rates then you are "undercharging", as most business folks have told me. And good business also means using every legal trick in the book to extract more capital. Whether that be locking customers in at start-up stages so when they grow you have more leverage and they're forced to use your services barring a massive investment. Or unionizing so you have more leverage to negotiate the return on your product. I mean, if a business was going to lock themselves into only one paying customer they would set up a million different protection clauses.
icelancer 9y ago
>>I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. I know you don't agree with it, so I'm not ascribing this to you, but of the set of people who believe that, then why are so many startups failing left and right and laying off workers because their products don't hit critical mass? Millions of dollars paid out to the workers who churned out a failed product. Their downside is being out of a job. The entrepreneur's downside can be and often is much larger.
- Aeolun 9y ago
  Larger? You mean, they find another investor and start a new failed company? I don't know, but one of the few things these people seem perfectly competent at is pitching.

NathanWilliams 9y ago

I assume the article is talking about the vast majority of employees who aren't software developers...

booleandilemma 9y ago

I think they do, yes. A few generations of kids growing up learning programming from kindergarten onwards is going to ensure that programming is put on par with welding, carpentry, painting, etc. Those of us commenting here today may not be around to see it happen, but I believe it will happen eventually. For now things are good. We got lucky and we found ourselves in a relatively new profession that not a lot of people are trained in and we're making good money (and some of us don't even have college degrees)

vacri 9y ago
It really isn't. Programming is still a niche skill - we've had a generation now that's grown up with their eyes glued to computer screens and now smartphones, and the average user still isn't any good at troubleshooting, let alone programming. Also, the trades historically haven't been particularly well-paid, but that's not the case anymore.

danharaj 9y ago

Yes. Our work shapes society. We need systems that allow us to have a say in the ethical and political implications of our labor.

chrismealy 9y ago

Yes, not for themselves but for society. If you like the way Germany, The Netherlands, and the Nordics do things, you should know that these countries have very high levels of union membership, up to 80%. Their broad labor movements created the societies they have today. Unions in America never had that much strength and never accomplished as much.

tajen 9y ago
It's not only membership levels, it's cleverness. In France unions are often explicitly anticapitalist. There's little you can do to work with them. Most people believe their pay could be doubled without harming the company, because there's a stash somewhere [1]. Whereas in Germany, unions seem to have a clever dialogue with employers. Probably most people have been educated to economics, in a pro-capitalist way? [1] Ironically they're not so wrong: Because of our mandatory contributions, our compound tax rate is 63%.
logicchains 9y ago
Yet pay for software developers in those companies is so much less than for those in America.
- AsyncAwait 9y ago
  If you account for rent in SF and healthcare, I am not sure it is so much less.

chasing 9y ago

Yes.

downrightmike 9y ago

Hell yes http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jobs-settlement-20150903-story.html http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-job...

swalsh 9y ago

Yes, we need better conditions in the workplace, do you know how many people in the HEALTHCARE industry of all places go to work every day and have to touch another person's MUMPS? Often times they take kids right out of college. Sickening.

goobynight 9y ago

We have it ok in comparison to "really bad or bad", but it could be better.

joe_the_user 9y ago

A minority of developers get the rockstar wages of Silicon Valley, the majority are paid typical middle class saleries from 25 to 35, a substantial number have been tossed away by 50. Moreover, a substantial number work in such high stress situations that they have to get out after a bit and suffer serious burn-out as a result. A union, professional association or better labor standards might be able to address all this.

wsc981 9y ago

I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work. So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well.

icelancer 9y ago
>>So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). And apparantly my clients believe so as well. That's fine. I'm an entrepreneur as well and I make my own rules. But there are a lot of people who just want to cash a check and do the work put in front of them. I employ a lot of them. And they're great. They have no aspirations to strike out, to deal with healthcare as a freelancer (have you tried being a father of two with kids or a spouse with chronic medical issues?), to deal with financial windfalls and insecurities, and so forth.
gozur88 9y ago
>I think that is a horrible argument. It always bothered me that my employers could ask a lot of money per hour to their clients and I would only receive a very small part, even though I did most of the work. Did you? Are you ignoring all the work that went into landing the contract? If your work was really the major effort the smart thing to do would be to strike out on your own.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  >> So in the end I decided to become freelancer. I can ask much higher rates and now I feel I get a fair compensation for my work (perhaps 2x or 3x my previous wage). I'm pretty sure that wasn't edited in in response to your comment, since it's quoted in another comment much older than yours is.

gaius 9y ago

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks In a few hotspots yes. But the vast majority of programmers are just office workers like any other. But unlike HR and so on, they face the threat of offshoring... It's like saying all musicians are highly paid and have loads of perks because look at Jay-Z.

pdkl95 9y ago

Unions are useful for more than just better pay. If that's a concern, charter some new type of union-like organization that doesn't touch salary/wages. One of the most important reasons for unions is to fight back against abusive employment practices that are unrelated to employee compensation. While software development doesn't have anywhere close to the problems mining or factory jobs, we it might be a good idea to address the culture of working long hours with chronic sleep problems. A union could also fight unfair hiring practices like age discrimination or the scandal from a couple years about hiring collusion to between several Silicon Valley companies.

tboyd47 9y ago
I was just having this conversation on HN about a week ago. I think a union for web developers would be a fantastic idea. Like you said, not necessarily for negotiating pay, but that could be part of it. It would be nice if a developer could rise from being paid close to minimum wage to an average software engineer's salary without having to switch jobs 6 times. As an industry we need to address the problem of endemic project failure. Companies who aren't in the software industry generally don't understand how to produce software. Usually it falls on individual developers to teach the rest of the organization how to do things like write stories, build a deployment pipeline, etc. How to trust programmers to do things at their own pace and not resort to cracking the whip all the time. Anyone who's done this knows it's an uphill battle. Usually programmers just choose to leave a dysfunctional org rather than stick around and get punished for trying to do their job. Then you have dying projects full of code no one understands or wants to understand. It would be great if we could come together to take control of our industry and really turn it into a profession. If it's what people want, we could try to engineer a profession where it's reasonable for a developer to expect to hold the same job (or at least work on the same codebase - even as a contractor) for at least 5 years without a major upheaval. Or one where you can expect to use at least some of what you learn in university / boot camp on the job. Or one where workers are expected to have different output levels and they don't fear being let go for not being a natural fast learner like John. Things we don't have that other professions take for granted. All these things aren't going to happen in the current dev culture, but would in fact be beneficial developments not just for employees but for employers as well. If we don't do this type of thing ourselves, companies like Google, Amazon, and Facebook will remake the industry in their image as they have done and are doing. This will result in a great worker pool ready for them to draw from, and a broken industry for everyone else.

Zarath 9y ago

There's still a tremendous imbalance of power. I don't see why people wouldn't want to leverage their collective strength by unionizing...

alkonaut 9y ago

Well yes and no. Unions for white collar workers are pretty different from "traditional" unions. I'm a software developer making nearly $100k (That's probably $200k in Silicon Valley dollars) and I'm a union member. Now, my union isn't a blue collar union in the traditional sense. My union is just an employer organization to e.g. push mandatory contract contents like flexible pension age, insurance issues etc. It's a white collar union. They don't negotiate salaries for their members. If I ever end up in a situation where I need legal help, e.g. I'm quarantined when leaving an employer and think it's unfair - I can ask my union for legal help. They also provide an unemployment insurance to bolster the public insurance for their members (if the public provides 50% of income, the union one adds to that so get maybe 80 or 90% of your income). Blue collar unions on the other hand represent people who are replacable. The union is their only way of achieving bargaining power against employers. Blue collar unions typically negotiate wages and raises for all members at the company. Blue collar unions may have to go on strike etc, whereas white collar unions rarely do. That means my union fee might be 1/4 of what a blue collar union costs per month, since the white collar unions don't need a stash of money to live through a strike. So these are fundamentally different organisations. My union is more like a legal aid + insurance deal that costs me a few bucks per month. Now: you could argue that with my relative power over my employer, shouldn't I be able to just negotiate this myself? I should be able to retire when I want? I should be able to just hire a lawyer when I need one? And buy unemployment insurance at market rate? Well yes, I suppose. But the insurance is actually pretty good valuye for union members (we are considered less likely to be unemployed so the premium is much lower) and I'm happy to buy all that stuff as a package deal. I like the idea of someone representing my group and not just me.

downrightmike 9y ago
Which union?