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Juicero Is Shutting Down
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- TillE 9y agoThe fundamental problem with Juicero (at least as an ambitious startup) is that juice isn't a product with broad appeal, especially after the recent trend against sugary drinks. You could overcome price barriers and other issues if there were some real demand, but I just don't see it.
- teej 9y agoI thought the fundamental (and well documented) problem with Juicero is that they over-engineered themselves into a product that was far beyond what a consumer would ever pay for a kitchen appliance. Kinda like exactly what the article says.
- chiph 9y agoAvE tore one down. It really was well-built. Too much so, really. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ (possibly NSFW for language - use headphones)
- dragonwriter 9y agoConsumers will (and do, all the time) spebd $700 or more for kitchen appliances, provided the use of the appliance is expected to provide adequate value to warrant that. The fact that it's a juicer, and that you are locked-in to Juicero packs, is what limits the market, not the fact that it is a “kitchen appliance”.
- Steko 9y ago> The fact that it's a juicer The biggest problem is Juicero isn't a juicer. Juicero's market was limited because the average customer doesn't want to pay a premium for juice press theater. Shoving juice into packs that are hard for the consumer to access is simply a worse experience than the status quo containers of juice.
- _rpd 9y ago> juice press theater Yes, this should be their epitaph. It's actually hopeful in a way. Substance still has sway over style.
- ghaff 9y agoYep. You can buy a Vitamix for about the same amount of money which is great for making smoothies but also certain soups, adult beverages, etc.
- andreasgonewild 9y agoDid you just call pressed veggies and fruits sugary drinks? As in more or less the same as Pepsi? The problem with Juicero is that it was a scam, pure and simple. Overpriced bullshit and awesome profits, at least that was the plan. Thank god it's over. Now we're just waiting for Uber to fold and then maybe we can start actually making a difference, as opposed to spewing bullshit until no one can tell the difference.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> The problem with Juicero is that it was a scam, pure and simple. I'm not sure how you can even make an argument that it was a scam. A stupid business model isn't the same thing as a scam - it was a real product, however ill conceived.
- andreasgonewild 9y agoI am fully aware that this is business as usual these days, but that doesn't make it any less destructive to society or any less a scam. What you're saying is basically that as long as people fall for it and you don't go to jail it's ok, I don't agree.
- ceejayoz 9y agoThere wasn't much fraudulent or dishonest about Juciero. It was overpriced, stupid, and a totally unnecessary luxury item, but that's not the same thing as scamming people.
- gubby 9y agoApart from the fact that the founders clearly didn't intend to fold the company (removing the malice part of a scam), as a consumer, spending $700 on something that stops functioning nearly immediately is pretty indistinguishable from a scam.
- The_Sponge 9y agoThey are though, Juicero being a scam or not (it's not, they shipped at straight forward pricepoints). Even "traditional" pressed juice companies are starting to see a crunch, as their evangelical customers ("health nuts") are realizing that eating an apple is healthier than pressing 4 of them.
- Finnucane 9y agoNo, the fundamental problem with Juicero is that the product was bullshit.
- joegosse 9y agoOne of the VC-funded businesses we all knew would fail has finally failed, is this an early indicator of a market correction?
- xenity7 9y agoI don't think so, because an idea this obviously silly should fail under almost any market conditions.
- arzt 9y agoIt's an indicator that the market needs to be more discerning about consumer needs. There is a lot of dry powder waiting to be deployed in the VC industry, so expect to see more specious stuff get funded until LPs decide that they can generate returns elsewhere.
- rhinoceraptor 9y agoEven if the machine was $50, I don't think many people would want to spend that much for the privilege of being locked in to Juicero proprietary juice packs, letalone spend kitchen counter space to a dedicated juice squeezer machine. And everyone who did now has an exquisitely engineered $700 paperweight.
- rrdharan 9y agoApparently as per the article they're at least offering refunds to some subset of their customers. Also, I think at $50 a lot more people would consider it. Keurig coffee makers seem to have done pretty well and I'm sure the $100 cost was a big part of that (as opposed to charging say > $200).
- hwillis 9y agoUltra expensive juicers aren't new[1]. Even "normal" juicers are quite expensive[2]. Juicero was just trying to jump on a fairly well-established gravy train catering to the juice woo crowd. [1]: https://www.acemart.com/equipment/beverage/juicers/zumex-essential-pro-essential-pro-juicer/ZUXESSENTIALPRO https://www.acemart.com/equipment/beverage/juicers/zumex-ess... [2]: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EXF4PLC/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01EXF4PLC/
- dingo_bat 9y agoHas there ever been a juicer before this that has forced you to buy all your fruits from one company? I think that's the key. People are ready to pay big bucks for premium appliances, but lock-in is another matter.
- hwillis 9y agoPeople love being locked in. Applying the keurig model to the juicing trend was a very solid business idea- it rocketed keurig to the top of all coffee makers, and juice fanatics make coffee fanatics look positively sane. I'm pretty cynical about it, but it is still a real and good thing. A half second of convenience makes you feel good and selecting, storing, washing and prepping produce is not trivial. A few extra clicks in one area of UI makes it a terrible design. The same thing translates into the real world, although at extreme cost (to the environment, primarily). Negative press, overengineering, the smaller market group, and underdelivering convenience (the bags are just way too big compared to coffee) killed juicero. It was such a high-profile and brutal lambasting that it will be a scarlet letter for quite a while, but the core idea is solid enough that I wouldn't be surprised to see the idea re-emerge in 2-3 years. I still can't get over how much people viscerally hate the idea. You'd think apple, google and microsoft had partnered to make a juice press because of how much juicero represented silicon valley-ness.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Powerofmene 9y agoIt is a shame that Juicero could not develop a product with a lower price point that could reach a much broader marketplace. With the initial price point they should have clearly seen that their customer pool was going to be smaller than that of a lower cost product. It seems that they did not have enough time and money to right their ship. It is sad to see a dream die even if you don't agree with the product or business plan.
- eropple 9y agoI think it's more a shame that they didn't actually make a product anyone needed. Just remember that this was a thing actually said about real life humans who can walk and talk and dress themselves: > One of the investors said they were frustrated with how the company didn’t deliver on the original pitch and that their venture firm wouldn’t have met with Evans if he were hawking bags of juice that didn’t require high-priced hardware. Juicero didn’t broadly disclose to investors or employees that packs can be hand squeezed, said four people with knowledge of the matter. This was a dumb thing from the jump. Maybe all that money spent on an evenly-pressing juice-o-tron would have been better used almost anywhere else.
- Powerofmene 9y agoI agree they should have done what they said they would do and should have talked to potential customers before making something that was not wanted or needed. And I do not dispute what you say about the product not being needed. I also agree that the money would have been better used on other companies but personally I think that the employees are the losers here (as are the investors). If the employees truly believed in their product then the employees have worked on something that has gone nowhere. All their work and effort is gone. That cannot be regained. These people are out of work. And for that reason, it is sad.
- adwn 9y ago> It is sad to see a dream die even if you don't agree with the product or business plan. Why is that sad? They were trying to solve some made-up problem in a way that would have wasted resources and created a lot of waste. They didn't do this to make the world a better place, their goal was to get rich (which isn't immoral by itself), so why should we – as a society or as individuals – be sad that they failed?
- fsckin 9y agoAvE tore one of their machines down awhile back[0]. It's so over engineered, I was wondering how they'd ever make money back with their business model. [0] https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://youtu.be/_Cp-BGQfpHQ
- x0x0 9y agothis is another teardown with a similar conclusion https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensive-6add74594e50 https://blog.bolt.io/heres-why-juicero-s-press-is-so-expensi...
- trendia 9y agoI love how Bolt.io tore down a pair of Beats headphones and came to the opposite conclusion -- that they were a ripoff and that the components inside in no way justified the pricetag. But, take a look at the quality of the internals of Juicero vs. Beats headphones and realize that one of the companies is worth $1.5B while the other is shutting down.
- to3m 9y agoI think you mean "so", not "but" :)
- JimDabell 9y agoThat "Beats" teardown was with a counterfeit pair of headphones. Even so, I don't think a large difference between the BOM and the price the consumer pays is necessarily a ripoff. There's more to a product than simply how much it costs to manufacture.
- alva 9y agoSeems like they felt the squeeze after that expose
- BrentOzar 9y agoAnd now it's time for a liquidation
- eelkefolmer 9y agoThe early investors are left holding the bag!
- Slartie 9y agoThey should have scanned the QR code on it first, it would have told them something's rotten in there.
- knieveltech 9y agoWTF? HN is allowing humor now?
- et-al 9y agoThere's a Hacker News subreddit. We should keep all the puns there.
- sw00pur 9y agoI don't think the expose changed much. They would've died anyway. The product was a joke.
- eelkefolmer 9y agoTheir grapes have soured, but I'm glad I didn't buy one of their lemons ;-)
- codeulike 9y agoIts been a pressing time for them
- jpao79 9y agoI think they went about getting to market wrong. They should not have targeted end consumers with their equipment. They should have went after the convenience store market using the soda dispenser/automated latte/vending machine/icee making business model. Basically convince the store owner to have some refrigerated space dedicated to the pouches and then put the machine nearby for the customer to make their own juice in real time. I see a Juice company in the SF Ferry Building selling fresh squeezed juice for over $8. If they could have positioned themselves somewhere between that and $2 pasteurized/packaged juice from the grocery store, they could have done very well. https://www.yelp.com/biz/sow-juice-san-francisco https://www.yelp.com/biz/sow-juice-san-francisco
- mikesickler 9y agoAlong those same lines, I think spas, fitness centers, salons would have been good segments for them.
- reubenswartz 9y agoSeems like the perfect thing for an airport. :)
- samstave 9y agoFor Virgin Galactic and SpaceX
- reubenswartz 9y agoAirports are full of $6 lattes and smoothies, $4 bottled water, etc. I would imagine their might be enough folks who want something "healthy" who'd be willing to pay.
- samstave 9y agoI was joking about the aesthetics only
- nickparker 9y ago
- scottkduncan 9y agoI'll pick one up in the liquidation sale.
- azm1 9y agoLike for what?
- bpg_92 9y agoI guess the components. I think the sold the machine at a loss and maybe you could make some profit reselling some components, yet I am not quite sure.
- Retr0spectrum 9y agoI think it was a joke, maybe.
- solatic 9y agoYeah, it's a pun on the word 'liquidation'.
- scottkduncan 9y agoYes, it was what passes for a joke attempt on a Friday afternoon.
- VLM 9y agoThere are amateurs successfully manufacturing ancient Kodak photographic processes; given that, "insert apples into bag" sounds pretty easy in comparison. The problem is my real juicer juices better than I can likely make this machine juice with homemade bags, and to keep my carb load low, I generally eat pieces of fruit not juices so I'd not use it personally, although its an interesting challenge.
- adamnemecek 9y agoWhat are you gonna do with it with the the packs? Or you can use it without them too?
- DannyBee 9y agoAre they shutting down using a super-complicated completely over engineered method of shutting down, or the regular way?
- hasenj 9y agoLike hiring an expensive PR firm to write your shutdown notice?
- samstave 9y agoIf I were to create a PR firm to do such a ting, I would call it "The Amazing Journey"
- ProAm 9y agoI heard someone was able to shutdown about 98% of a similar company using their bare hands.
- TomK32 9y agoBut they'd have squishy stuff on all over their hands, wouldn't they?
- jerf 9y agoOnly if you accidentally pierce the corporate veil [1], but that's pretty hard for one person to do with their bare hands. [1]: Much as I hate to explain a pun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil
- DonHopkins 9y agoThe ancient Babylonians would shut down companies by burying their executives and employees with clay tablets, which were much more accurate and humane than modern methods.
- 9y ago
- snake117 9y agoThis will serve as a good example for future startups where taking one concept from one market does not always work in another market. Keurig managed to make a great product at an affordable price range, both the machines ($80-$250) and the K-Cups (~$0.85 per pod). However, a $400 machine, that just squeezes the pack for juice, and each juice pack running several dollars is enough to kill anyone's wallet. I liked how they made an attempt to promote a sustainable healthy lifestyle, but ultimately there are cheaper alternatives.
- aoenht2nte8 9y agoBut how is it sustainable to grow fruit, pick it, wash and peel it, then cut it up and put it into some sort of disposable bag, then ship it to each individual who wants it, then require them to own an appliance that likely runs on fossil fuels to get the product out? They could have just shipped bottle of juice to the local supermarket and cut out the machine entirely. The waste would have been less because the bottles would have been recyclable, and they'd own the machines and use them in place in bulk. The shipping would be more sustainable because of the scale of doing all shipping to fewer grocery stores than all their customers (or at least all they hoped to reach eventually). The whole thing is wildly wasteful.
- snake117 9y agoTo clarify, I meant sustainable in the context of maintaining a healthy lifestyle, not in their overall manufacturing process and waste output.
- madeofpalk 9y ago> I liked how they made an attempt to promote a sustainable healthy lifestyle, but ultimately there are cheaper alternatives. That was always a bullshit reverse-engineered marketing spin on their device.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Twirrim 9y agoIt was a product solving a problem few people had, at a price point few people could justify for a one-purpose device. That the founders and the dialogue around it were all aspirational BS just exasperated the problem. It felt like it was constantly pitching a lifestyle very few people have, want or care about.
- TaylorGood 9y agoThose who funded this will only squeeze their portfolio companies still remaining for a juicier return.
- auvi 9y agoI think this will be a wake-up call for companies like uBeam. For uBeam's case, you can send mechanical energy via ultrasound: true, with very little efficiency. But very few will be interested to buy the device.
- petra 9y agoThe thing i'm curious about: why did this raise $120M? And how much has already been spent, on what ???
- rdl 9y agoFounding team were serial successes in an adjacent/directly-related industry. "Because they could" is probably the best explanation of why they did.
- ChemicalWarfare 9y agonot sure how they managed to convince the investors. as far as the money spent - setting up physical manufacturing of anything, especially at scale is orders of magnitude more expensive than setting up an "IT" shop. here we're talking the actual (apparently worthless) juicers and the packs.
- tommynicholas 9y agoI could be extremely wrong about this, but I doubt they've spent the majority of that money. I think they're likely to be giving it back to avoid shareholder unpleasantness and seeking a buyer to try to neutralize the overall outcome. They raised $98m of the money in the last 18 months, I would bet 2/3rds of that is still there if not more.
- napolux 9y agoCome on. Juicero was pure Silicon Valley craziness. It’s strange they didn’t fail from the very beginning. Tried it in a bar in San Francisco: slow as fuck, avg juice.
- 5_minutes 9y agoSo they got squeezed.
- desireco42 9y agoNoooo!!! :)
- wheeler4x4 9y agoJuicero is shutdownero.
- dreamcompiler 9y agoMagnificent engineering to solve a stupid non-problem. Sigh.
- abhi3 9y ago120 million USD in funding and such a spectacular failure because of one article. This whole episode goes on to show the power journalists have. I know the sales number were bad but with so much money the founder could have bought the market or pivoted but with no coming back from the PR disaster the investors most likely just wanted their money back.
- empath75 9y agoShoot the messenger?
- johnhenry 9y agoUnless their was a serious problem with their product or their team, with 120 million USD, they should have been able to avoid a PR disaster set off by a single article. Obviously, there are numerous issues with the product itself: no one wants to subscribe to packets of fruit, especially if those packets are perishable, especially if they have to buy a six-hundred dollar machine to properly use the packets and to know if they are fresh, even if you later find out you can just squeeze them with your hands. I suspect if you dig, and probably not too deep, you'd find issues with the team that tried to make money with this product as well. There are problems that even $120 million can't fix.
- interstitial 9y agoWhy oh why hasn't Mike Judge parody this yet.
- swamp40 9y agoTheir failure was in trying to "squeeze" a hardware-as-a-service/recurring revenue model into a device that was better suited as a single purchase appliance. If you could have just shoved fresh fruit into it, they would have been ok. But whoever talked investors out of $118M probably also sold everyone on the H-A-A-S model, which didn't quite fit for this product.
- gggboxing 9y agoDear Lord. Dear. Lord. We have become a parody of ourselves. Juice? Someone actually spent their money to fund a J-U-I-C-E startup? Oh boy.
- theDoug 9y agoFounder seems to be having a good time at Burning Man the day his company shuts down.[1] [1] https://www.instagram.com/p/BYaIlV4jFb5/?taken-by=dougevans https://www.instagram.com/p/BYaIlV4jFb5/?taken-by=dougevans
- weston 9y agoEven founders of failed startups deserve a chance to relax.
- theDoug 9y agoNever claimed otherwise, just unfortunate or perhaps obtuse timing. People around here sure wouldn't dare miss the Burn, even as their company burned out.
- arkitaip 9y agoThey have probably been preparing for this for many months now and now that it's over, I think the founder deserves some time to relax and reflect. I only hope the employees get good severance packages.
- cabaalis 9y agoI suppose I'm not the target demo. But I'm not too interested in buying anything from the man in this video.
- GuiA 9y agoYou most likely have put money in the pockets of many people who have behaved just like the man in this video.
- Meekro 9y agoJuicero has been quoted as saying that they sold "over a million Produce Packs." [1] Does anyone know who bought so many of them? Or how many they would've had to sell to stay in business? [1] https://www.juicero.com/company-news/ https://www.juicero.com/company-news/
- blizkreeg 9y agoThis will be one for the (forgotten) history books!
- nandreev 9y agoRumor has it that their engineers couldn't concentrate...
- amichal 9y agoThis video is one of my favorites https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ Edit: Most like contains strong language...
- Upvoter33 9y agoJuice is bad for you anyhow, no matter the price. TOO MUCH SUGAR!
- trowawey 9y agoThat Thrive Capital magic touch. Another useless consumer company bites the dust.
- johnhenry 9y agoI simply do not understand the mindset of silicon valley investors. I used to think that perhaps they had some edge that helped them to get behind successful companies, but looking at this -- how much money they raised and from whom -- I think that there are just a bunch of people who have so much money that they can afford to risk throwing it away on something that will not likely succeed. Can someone watch the video in the article and explain what sort of mindset you have to be in and think that this is a good idea? Perhaps the initial vision was different somehow and the final product does not align with what you thought you were putting your money behind? Is it possible that you see the issues, but have so little faith in consumers not to buy crap that it seems like you'll make a reasonable profit? Maybe there's something you see or know that I don't -- perhaps some sort of shake up in the fruit industry was set to make this a hit only to not meet expectations? I am now more deeply concerned than ever about the effect that an exploding tech bubble is going to have on our economy.
- palakchokshi 9y agoThis investment seemed to me to be in search of the next Dollar Shave Club.
- johnhenry 9y agoThe idea of getting people to subscribe to your product looks really good to your investors these days -- once you get people to start the subscription, they are likely to keep giving you money, even when they don't really want the product anymore because there is some effort in canceling it. I am NOT saying anything bad about the DSC, I love the commercials, but you have to wonder about a company who's business model is intertwined with subscribing to a product.
- palakchokshi 9y agoSubscription model businesses are actually pretty good businesses if you can service a genuine recurring need with a genuinely good product at a reasonable price point. I order diapers for my kid on a subscription. As a consumer it works great for me since I didn't have any upfront one time cost like $700. The problem I see with Juicero and its investors is that the machine is not unique, it is redundant, the investors were clearly blinded by the founder's pedigree to overlook the simple clear fact that the machine was not needed and the founder was delusional to think the machine was needed.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Xorlev 9y agoI guess the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze.
- zilchers 9y agoThe Bloomberg article described Juicero as "one of the most lavishly funded gadget startups in Silicon Valley" and founder Doug Evans once said he planned to do for juicing what Steve Jobs did for computers. With vision like that, it's hard to believe there were any issues.
- palakchokshi 9y agoCan we agree that if any founder makes a statement comparing themselves or their vision for their product with Steve Jobs and Apple, that they are automatically disqualified from being funded? Steve Jobs was one of a kind. If you are like Steve you don't have to say it, people will figure it out.
- userbinator 9y agoMeanwhile, the Chinese clone with what is likely a very similar mechanism, but no DRM or other IoT crap, seems to be still alive: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793272089/juisir-juicing-without-the-cleaning https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1793272089/juisir-juici... ...and Juicero even tried to sue them a few months ago: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juicero-has-sued-another-juicer-maker-for-patent-infringement/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/04/juice-wars-juice...
- dingo_bat 9y agoAt least some people have common sense. This is so much better!
- samstave 9y agoI just secured the purchase of two of these... for $200 to tinker with... Anyone have any ideas on the DIY project to make from them?
- samstave 9y agoThese remind me of the CUE::CAT
- ioquatix 9y agoOh noooo!! Think of the Juice(ro). What will happen to existing machines once the servers are shut down!? Are we destined return to the days of squeezing juice by hand?
- pmarreck 9y agoColor me not shocked? The whole premise of this was ridiculous from the start
- hota_mazi 9y agoIf anything, I'm surprised they're only laying off 25% of their staff. I have a feeling more lay offs are around the corner.
- epipping 9y agoAfter watching their promo video at the top of the page, I'm left wondering two things: - If the machine takes away all my liberty (I cannot use it on my fruit and vegetables) and even their packs need to be refrigerated and stay good only for 8 days, can't I just buy the resulting juice and put it in my fridge? (If I left the bottle closed, that would last equally long). So what do I gain? - They're using QR codes to check that I'm not using their packs beyond the "best by" date or try to trick the machine into squeezing a competitor's cheaper packs. And for that, they need a camera on the inside. And WiFi. Didn't somebody at some point notice that the way they're treating their customers is really disrespectful? This is the whole printer-cartridge-thing all over again. EDIT: layout/typos
- nikanj 9y agoYou gain the prestige of saying "you want a fresh-squeezed juice?" to your guests. Keurig grew HUGE in large part thanks to the appearance of higher class it brought to ordinary homes and offices. Instead of fooling with tools, you click a button on a sleek looking SV futuremachine, and presto. Humans are weird, and this is a very good marketing strategy.
- jakobegger 9y agoI'm not familiar with Keurig, but I assume it is similar to Nespresso? Nespresso became extremely popular because: 1) The machines are very cheap (compared to other espresso makers) 2) They take a fraction of the time to prepare coffee (compared to other methods) 3) They are extremely easy to clean 4) Capsules have a long shelf life, you can get them in small quantities, so it doesn't matter if you drink 3 cups of coffee per day or 3 cups of coffee per month. 5) They have really fancy stores in top locations where they sell their capsules Everything about Nespresso is convenient and feels great. There is no DRM, because that would not be convenient. The only thing that's convenient about the Juicero machine is that it is easy to clean. Everything else about it, from the short shelf live to the subscription pricing, to the long time it takes to make juice, is just inconvenient. The DRM and Wifi requirement is just stupid.
- 9y ago
- _ph_ 9y agoI am a big fan of kitchen gadgets - and there are a few really useful ones around, this product is just odd. Besides the price for the machine and the pods, I fail to see how it adds any value to the process. If you want really fresh and nutritious drinks, get a high-power blender. Not only do they operate on any fresh fruit and vegetable, they keep all the fiber in the produced drink. So less sugar percentage (especially if you have lots of vegetables in the mix) and vs. eating the fruit directly, the high power mixing helps digesting all nutritients much better than just chewing can. As a bonus, you can use it for many other cooking tasks (soups, sauces) but also you can do things like blending a good amount of ice with the fruit to get a cold and icy drink and my favorite is just to mis a scoop of natural yoghurt with frozen berries (add sugar, cream, a shot of bourbon to your taste) to instantly get a nice ice-cream like dessert. (Disclaimer: there are a very few vegetables which should be eaten cooked only, so don't use those for a smoothie, others only in reasonable dosis, so some very basic reading is recommended)
- msyea 9y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cp-BGQfpHQ breakdown of juicer. So fantastically overengineered. Beautiful.
- jonnathanson 9y agoI hope the writers of "Silicon Valley" were paying attention to this saga. There's some juice left to be squeezed from it.