13 ms·
One of the most complex wristwatches ever made
- twiceaday 9y agoIsn't the complexity here trivial when compared to the complexity of the cpu in smart watches?
- robertlagrant 9y agoPerhaps, but the ratio of number of people involved to complexity is much higher in making a watch like this.
- LeifCarrotson 9y agoI am inclined to agree with twiceaday on this, even with the qualifier of people involved to complexity. Obviously, if you factor in the entire supply chain for the whole industry, the semiconductor/electronics/plastics industry is higher, but I expect there are several ties in the quartz watch system where there are few people involved but huge amounts of complexity. The layout and routing of the microcontroller and the hard real-time operating system that runs on a moderately feature-rich watch have orders of magnitude more lines of code (not a precise measure of complexity, but it's close) than even the entire count of teeth on the gears of this watch. In fact, the argument that this involves fewer people seems to point to it being less complex. If one guy with a CNC micro lathe and some metal stock could make a precision clock like Chris of Clickspring, and a quartz watch takes huge industries with thousands of people, isn't the latter definitely more complicated?
- 21 9y agoThe way this article is written suggests that the whole clock was modeled on a computer, and that they even used a constraint solving system to figure out the gearing: "I rely on these equations and the powerful software to find a solution with our input. It's a question of using these tools to find new solutions." Also notice the quote towards the end that they were able to redesign the whole drive train just to make it a bit thinner. What I'm trying to say is that this watch has little in common with what people assume is a "hand made and designed watch". So this watch feels more like your later example, where you have the huge (computer) industry behind it.
- dsacco 9y agoIt's not a secret that the industry uses software for modeling. But it still has skilled staff operating that software. When people emphasize the artistry and craftsmanship of mechanical timepieces at this price point, they're talking about two facts: 1. Most such watches are designed in-house according to rigorous specifications and long R&D cycles, with the majority of tooling and manufacturing processing being wholly original and unique to the firm, 2. The watches are assembled and serviced entirely by hand with a sophisticated precision that takes watchmakers years to learn. On the upper end of the spectrum you have independent watchmakers like F.P. Journe who singlehandedly design and build entirely new systems in their movements.
- KGIII 9y agoFor those wondering about Clickspring, here is a link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZioPDnFPNsETq9h35dgQq80Ryx-beOli&v=B8Y146v8HxE https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLZioPDnFPNsETq9h35dgQq80Ry... I advise you not to click on it. It will eat up your time and it takes your complete attention.
- LeoPanthera 9y agoKinda missing the point, I think.
- bdamm 9y agoA hand crafted digital watch could be a thing of beauty. Especially if the circuitry of the CPU was visible under a magnifying face.
- Nition 9y agoNot QUITE the same but this guy[1] makes Nixie Tube watches. Steve Wozniak has one. [1] http://cathodecorner.com http://cathodecorner.com
- themihai 9y agoI'm sure the complexity is not what drives the price so high...if you would replace Vacheron Constantin with Foxconn you wouldn't sell it for $1000 regardless of its complexity. Many luxury brands place ridiculous prices on specific items so that they can increase the sales of less expensive models.
- handedness 9y agoA five-year-long project involving some of the finest watchmakers in the world surely cost far more than $1m, and that watch will sell for much more than that at auction some day. If it was priced to reflect its complexity it would be probably more on the order of $10m or more. Much simpler movements frequently cost $1-2 million to develop, often higher.
- KGIII 9y agoYup. They will be rare and fetch good auction prices. I gave my watch collection to my son, keeping just a Citizen. He had them appraised and they have all pretty much retained or increased in value.
- stephengillie 9y agoIs there value to these devices beyond timekeeping and resale?
- gerdesj 9y agoBy smart watch I take it you mean one of those gas guzzling things that doesn't quite manage to do anything particularly useful that the phone you probably carry as well does rather better 8) I strapped a Citizen Eco watch on my wrist about 12 years ago. It charges itself via four solar panels behind the hands - they simply look black. The only pains are I have to do BST/GMT adjustments and worst of all: "30 days hath September ..." Oh, and its not water proof. The time keeping is good enough. I am surrounded by more ntp daemons than you can shake a stick at if I need millisecond accuracy, eg this laptop: $ ntpq -p remote refid st t when poll reach delay offset jitter ============================================================================== +server1.webster 193.190.230.65 2 u 237 256 377 15.144 0.081 0.713 *85.199.214.100 .GPS. 1 u 11 64 377 12.541 -1.346 0.698 -ntp3.ds.network 203.135.184.123 2 u 196 256 377 334.847 4.998 23.715 +babbage.betadom 80.94.65.10 2 u 177 256 377 10.992 -0.505 1.023 Tut! one of the servers I'm using is showing an offset of nearly 5ms but it's OK: that system has a - against it. In a few days time I will be firing up a new member for the general ntp pool(s). I've been using it for many years and its time to give back. I'll be following this guide: https://www.ntpsec.org/white-papers/stratum-1-microserver-howto/ https://www.ntpsec.org/white-papers/stratum-1-microserver-ho... Depending on how that goes, I may be able to fire up quite a lot of them scattered across the UK. Some internet links I look after are only for failover and are largely idle most of the time.
- brightball 9y agoI recently purchased an Eco that has an atomic clock receiver to self correct every night. Auto charging and auto setting is very helpful. Even the dates are always right. It's a beautiful thing and I've gotten so used to having perfect time on my wrist that I actually feel strange when I don't have it.
- kqr 9y ago> doesn't quite manage to do anything particularly useful that the phone you probably carry as well does rather better I don't have a full fledged smartwatch, but a running watch with some smart features. Its killer feature is not to pretend to be a phone. It's much simpler than that. Its receiving (only high priority) notifications on my wrist. Incredibly convenient when I can't pick up my phone. Edit: apparently my phone strongly prefers "it's" over "its".
- MereInterest 9y agoI think I would view this as the watchmaker equivalent to making Commodore 64 demos in present day. It is utterly pointless, serves no practical purpose, and achieves effects that would be tremendously easier if obtained through a different method. But, it isn't there for the purpose of achieving those effects, but rather for showing off one's mastery of a craft.
- basicplus2 9y agoFor me it's about the human experience being an analogue one, and having a watch that works and expressed in an analogue way is a beauty in itself and is instantly relatable, and has a meaning in itself. So this is its value that is not just about showing off craft
- asjdfjasfjsfe 9y agoI think the main selling point for the people actually buying the watches is the exclusivity and display of wealth they represent. To get a sense, you could have a look at this amusing parody article. It is a parody, but there are nonetheless a lot of people who think this way. http://www.businessinsider.com/gselevator-on-wall-street-watches-2016-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/gselevator-on-wall-street-wat... I mean, I dig the notion of the human experience being "analogue." But the human experience doesn't normally include spending twenty-plus years worth of a normal person's wages for a useless trinket to wear on your wrist. I'm really torn about this. The device is something amazing, but the cost is extravagant in the extreme.
- dsacco 9y agoI can understand why you're torn, but - speaking here as someone who owns such a watch - people vastly overestimate the Veblen status potential of expensive watches, which is unfortunate because that can lead them to be quick to judge their owners. I have met wealthy people in the sort of industries you might typically associate with this kind of pedigreed excess (Wall St, Big Law), and those folks don't appear to recognize what I'm wearing at all. Often they're wearing smart watches these days. The truth is that extremely expensive watches are a poor form of wealth signaling unless they're loud (think of a Hublot encrusted with diamonds, or something extremely iconic like a Rolex). If you walk into nearly any room wearing a Patek, Lange, Vacheron, etc. I can virtually guarantee that your watch will simply go unnoticed. I actually like Rolex watches quite a lot for the real engineering work that goes into manufacturing them, but I don't own one specifically because I'd rather not broadcast an expensive item on my wrist. I consider watches like these to be a form of art that emerges from the idea of practicality but also frees itself from it (as do most collectors I've personally spoken to).
- Turing_Machine 9y agoThe chips in the smart watch aren't made by hand :-) Seriously, what you're paying for here is the labor (mental and physical) of a highly-skilled artisan. It's the same thing as paying more for a painting by a skilled artist than you do for an inkjet printout of a digital photo.
- robertlagrant 9y agoAwesome watch. But they are anachronistic, if you'll pardon the pun. Any $0.50 quartz watch keeps better time!
- LeoPanthera 9y agoI don't think anyone would buy a watch like this because they wanted to keep accurate time. There are in fact high-end luxury watches that keep unusually accurate time. I own one - an Omega Speedmaster Skywalker X-33. It has a thermocompensated quartz movement (TCXO) and so is accurate to ~10 seconds a year, compared to the ~15 seconds a month of a normal quartz movement.
- sdrothrock 9y agoThe Bulova Accutron is also very accurate, as the name suggests -- around five seconds a year -- and is much less expensive than the Omega. The fact is that most luxury watches are mechanical; the Skywalker X-33 is an oddity in that it's a luxury quartz, which barely exists as a market segment. Mechanical watches are not as accurate, with standard COSC deviation being -4 to +6 seconds... per DAY.
- lb1lf 9y ago-Other luxury watch companies also made forays into quartz back in the day - say, Rolex Oysterquartz for a prime example. I believe Vacheron Constantin also made one at some point. Modern mechanical watches can do significantly better than COSC, by the way - I have owned an Omega Planet Ocean (c.2500C) for a decade now, for the first seven or eight years it ran consistently 0.7 seconds/day fast - so I just adjusted it back a minute or two every time I unscrewed the crown to correct the date. Now it is due for a service soon - but still within a couple of seconds a day.
- sdrothrock 9y agoBack in the day, when quartz seemed like it would take over the world... how many people nowadays know about or want an Oysterquartz? ;) The point I was trying to make is that probably one of the LOWEST selling points of a luxury watch is accuracy -- there are far more accurate, electronic solutions in the watch space. I love mechanical watches, but I hold no illusions as to how they compare to more modern technology as timepieces. :)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- amelius 9y agoI chose the wrong profession. Whenever I write complex code, it is worth less instead of more.
- brianwawok 9y agoNot always. See hand rolled assembly loops in the right place.
- nevi-me 9y ago(S)he is a TypeScript developer. We've forgotten who wrote the code by the time it reaches the Assembly line
- BoorishBears 9y agoI'm sure on the level where it counts these wristwatch makers/designers are rewarded for achieving their goal in the least complex way. In the same way, when viewed at from a high enough level, developers are generally paid more as the systems they work on get more complex
- damnfine 9y agoBut you don't "see the gears behind the code turn". I remember fondly the old computers that flashed their memory at you, floppy access, or later memory addresses, then later cpu and hdd activity, then just hdd, and now nothing. The feedback, the pulse, of our devices is now so small to be hidden entirely. I find I prefer physical switches and buttons over virtual "smart" buttons almost every time. I miss knowing what a button does without having to examine software. These watches speak to that in a way even good code can not (and I can enjoy some good code). Its simply less abstracted.
- dreamcompiler 9y agoIt is an interesting phenomenon. Everything this watch does could easily be done by a $1.99 smartphone app. But of course that's not the point.
- 9y ago
- eps 9y agoThere's one complication that I've seen in another watch and that puzzles me a lot. On its back this watch has sunrise/sunset times. These times are derived from a so-called sunrise equation [1] which depends on the day of the year and the latitude, and is expressed via trigonometry functions. I can see how this can be translated into some sort of irregularly shaped gear(s) if there were a single variable (the day of the year), but I have no idea how one could also allow for different latitudes. Does anyone know or care to guess? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation
- xtagon 9y agoI don't know what watch you have seen, but here is an explanation of a similar watch: http://newatlas.com/krayon-everywhere-watch-sunrise-sunset/50150/ http://newatlas.com/krayon-everywhere-watch-sunrise-sunset/5... TL;DR: The factors such as latitude are user-programmable.
- eps 9y agoThanks, haven't seen this one. There is no explanation per se, but this confirms that it's doable. Knowing the answer exists is half of the solution :) PS. And it's only 6.5 mm thick!
- seedie 9y agoThis clock is really impressive, but it took me nearly 10 minutes to find out what time it is on the pictures. The graphical display of sunrise and sunset on the other hand is genius.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- andmarios 9y agoThe watch is build to function at the desired latitude of the buyer. These aren't mass produced models, so it's feasible. Especially considering the price tag. :)
- yourapostasy 9y agoThis watch reminds me a lot of the Antikythera mechanism [1]; exquisite mechanical engineering and design, most advanced materials science of the day, implementing the astronomical theory of the day, but never to be disseminated as a mass-manufactured product. If one of these watches survives a couple thousand years, then if our future descendants guess (like we did for the Antikythera) that it was for a wealthy patron, then they'll be right. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
- PoachedSausage 9y agoYet those future archaeologists will be really confused when they find landfill sites full of even more complex smart phones and other electronics.
- jmclnx 9y agoAwesome, anyone want to buy me a Birthday present :)
- jchanimal 9y agoThe Clock of the Long Now has a gear machined to match the earth's 26k year precession cycle: http://longnow.org/clock/prototype1/ http://longnow.org/clock/prototype1/
- ranit 9y agoFascinating. The article mentions that they use some kind of software to help with the design. I wonder who developed it, is it in house, or there are companies in this niche market?
- IronBacon 9y agoI can only make a wild guess, but when I hear of constraints I immediately think about linear programming, so I suppose they used some general purpose tool like GLPK (GNU Linear Programming Kit) or a commercial equivalent.
- dheera 9y agoExcuse me if I'm ignorant; I get that it's a complicated watch but how are complications a countable concept? They list "57 complications". If I just added a 6 gears to the mechanism that do nothing, does that make it 63 complications? If I change the circle to a complicated shape with 25 vertices, is that counted as one complication or 25 complications upon the simplicity of the circle? If I tell time in binary, how do you count the added complexity?
- kraig 9y agoa complication is each thing the watch does, so a date would be a complication, a moon phase, etc
- dheera 9y agoWhy don't they just call it a feature?
- chadash 9y agoComplication is just a watchmaking term for what others might call features
- stephengillie 9y agoThe use of domain-specific language signals membership in the domain. Such as "pushing to origin" instead of "uploading to the remote Git instance".
- iaw 9y ago
- unexistance 9y agoit seems modern smartphone/watch still can't compete with most complications[0]... Or am I not looking hard enough? [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complication_(horology) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complication_(horology)
- microcolonel 9y agoGiven that a modern smartwatch has on the order of millions of times as many components, arranged very close to the theoretical physical limits of the materials, I don't know how any watchmaker could compete with a silicon lithographer on complexity. Aside: I don't really care for either smartwatches or complex mechanical watches. I want my wristwatch to tell time, and all else being equal, to look good on my skin along with clothing I wear. To me, complexity should drive function and performance, and on that front, nothing competes with a quartz watch with a standard battery (or solid electromechanical drive) in a hand-opening case.
- kwhitefoot 9y agoComplexity and complication are not the same thing.
- sdrothrock 9y agoI'm not following you... what complications do you think an app on a smartphone couldn't replicate? I love mechanical watches, but a smartphone could perform the same work as any complication, as far as I know.
- userbinator 9y agoAs someone with a natural attraction to stuff like this, it would be very interesting to see a parts diagram or even a service manual for one of these.
- DontSueMeBro 9y agoAre the photos swapped? The face of the watch is shown with a caption describing the back.
- shubhamjain 9y agoThis cynicism in this thread is disappointing. Of course, the things that this watch shows can easily be achieved by the most rudimentary computer but imagine the patience and skill needed to mechanically move sunrise and sunsets. Doing complex calculations all through gears and fitting it in a tiny wristwatch. It can be regarded as a pinnacle of human engineering. I am sure it's possible to draw parallels with equally complex software but thinking of the effort involved in making this, there would hardly be any equivalent.
- ggreer 9y agoIt's a pinnacle of engineering in the same way that a vehicle made entirely of jello is. Impressive? Extremely. Interesting? Very! Practical? Not so much. I think most of the detraction comes from people who think that impressive things must also be useful or practical.
- shusson 9y ago> It can be regarded as a pinnacle of human engineering I would argue it is pinnacle of art and not of engineering.
- Insanity 9y agoOr a bit of both really. I am impressed by the work put into it and the actual engineering, though it does feel like a piece of art as well.
- justinjlynn 9y agoI think their point was that engineering is the process of finding the most efficient way to accomplish a given goal given the whole of science and technology with which to accomplish it. In this way, a purely mechanical watch attempting such complex calculations is suboptimal. As such, it's existence is a form of art -- it is engineering only in the sense that the restrictions imposed are themselves non-optimal (for instance, the requirement that purely mechanical mechanisms be used). Something at the pinnacle of engineering would seek to optimise not only the solution, but also the requirements.
- SergeAx 9y agoMaaan, it's so XX century)
- blubb-fish 9y agoA mechanical watch is a beautiful little creature living on my arm. I love to take off my automatic Seiko and enjoy looking at the pulsating balance wheel through the transparent back. It reminds me of a heart beating. If I don't feed it enough by moving my arm it goes into sleep. Then I have to wake it up by shaking it or by operating the manual wind. I am a reasonable person - I wouldn't spend excessive amount of money on a watch. Mine did cost 300 Euro - that's the right price and you can get a very nice one if you look around. I even took the hassle of importing it from Japan.
- fairpx 9y agoThere are a couple of fantastic documentaries that follow some high level wristwatches craftsmen. It's absolutely amazing to see the dedication, precision and care they put into the tiniest of details.
- ryanwaggoner 9y agoRecommendations?
- semi-extrinsic 9y agoOn a larger scale, you have Clickspring on Youtube who does wall clock machining. He's doing a series now on building the Antikythera mechanism. Even that's bloody impressive; then you can imagine squeezing the same into a 45x45x10 mm cylindre... http://www.clickspringprojects.com http://www.clickspringprojects.com
- qrbLPHiKpiux 9y agoI read this article, and comments in this thread, in the voice of Archie Luxury. A previous watch snob on YouTube, his videos are hilarious.
- urza 9y agoI want something like this, beautifully designed, as gadget for my Always On Display.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y agoIt's a neat watch, but the display of opulence is rather disgusting. There are people literally starving, social mobility is declining, yet there are people willing to spend enough money that most people could retire for life for a status symbol. That's money that could be invested in the local economy to build industries and create opportunities for the people in the area, yet they've chosen instead to buy a shiny toy. The disconnect between rich and poor must be real, or else there wouldn't be a market for such things.
- Mikeb85 9y agoCouldn't this be argument be taken further? There's starving people, why do we spend money on Tesla autos? There's starving people, why do we take vacation instead of sending them money? And so on... > That's money that could be invested in the local economy to build industries and create opportunities for the people in the area, yet they've chosen instead to buy a shiny toy. They're literally supporting the watch industry, which does employ people, and is part of a local economy. Watchmakers are artisans, and deserve to be paid for their craft.
- Joeri 9y agoWell, obviously the line of disgusting opulence is drawn a bit higher up the food chain than us, for whatever definition of us you like. ;)
- BearGoesChirp 9y agoCounting the electronics I own, it adds up to 10s of thousands of dollars. Even if I subtract what I would require to do my job, continue my career, and to keep contact with others, I still have vast amounts of electronics often for the purpose of entertaining myself. That amount of money could've saved many lives, even provided education so that someone could not just survive but make a living for themselves. Yet I seem to lose no sleep over this. Or consider the case where clothes manufacturers, giving in to public pressure, ended child labor in some third world countries. Those children ended up in even worse 'jobs' if you could call them such. Not only did people behind this not feel bad about it, they saw it as having done a good thing. On take all the time I devote to entertainment. While some relaxation is necessary to keep a good work life balance, I likely far over indulge in it. That time could've been spent making the world better in some way. I really don't feel I'm in a place to criticize someone for building their a masterpiece of their craft.
- samstave 9y agoWhere exactly does one go to school to be a watchmaker? Is there a place to read up on gear ratios/design patterns for complications, and for linking complications together to form the mechanical watch? Is there a watch designing application that would allow you to drop in a complication (however simple) and learn how all the gears perform the calculations needed for a complication? I find elite watch designers to be fascinating. Edit: Never-mind this looks amazing and was posted lower in the thread: http://www.clickspringprojects.com/ http://www.clickspringprojects.com/
- LyndsySimon 9y ago> Where exactly does one go to school to be a watchmaker? I'm not a part of that world, but I hang around the periphery of the high-end European firearms community. Most of the master gunmakers and engravers didn't go to school to do that; they apprenticed under a master. I imagine watchmakers do the same.
- wahern 9y agoWhere exactly does one go to school to be a watchmaker? Here's a fun interview with Anthrax guitarist Dan Spitz, a master watchmaker: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/interview-meet-dan-spitz-anthrax-guitarist-turned-master-watchmaker https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/interview-meet-dan-spitz-a... The article mentions the Bulova School (closed since 1993 according to Wikipedia), and WOSTEP.