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'One of my favorite things you can do is plan a “device-free dinner.”' _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make

'One of my favorite things you can do is plan a “device-free dinner.”' _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. We have a landline expressly to give out to emergency contacts. And dinner is tech free. Every night. I think the main problem is tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, and parents just aren't prepared to fight the battles / put in the work. A parent who is staring at Instagram when they're at the park shouldn't be surprised that their kids wants screens, too.

careersuicide 9y ago
I think this is the one thing about technology I'm old fashioned about (I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off."). If I'm eating food with someone else the phone goes away. The only exception is if in the course of conversation an easily googleable question is asked and both the other person/people and I are actually interested in the answer instead of just guessing. But after that the phone goes right back in my pocket. It's not a hard rule, but it's one I do make a conscious effort to follow. I've noticed that others are a lot less likely to pull out their phones and stare while at the table if I don't do it myself. There's just something kinda sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter and there's still food on their plates. I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess.
- dannysu 9y ago
  It's true. I was having hot pot with my wife the other day. Sitting near us was a couple, both on their phones the whole time and not looking at each other. When I first played with smartphone, it was before most people had phones with Internet (it was pre-iPhone). Someone commented on how I was on the phone all the time and the lesson stuck with me ever since. Now I don't do that to people.
  - joezydeco 9y ago
    Look around in any restaurant these days and you'll easily see half of the adults in the room engaged with their phones at some part of the evening, if not most of it.
    - posguy 9y ago
      The occasional check of your phone is very different than staring at your glowing rectangle through the entire dinner, ignoring those you are with entirely.
      - eric_h 9y ago
        Like literally every human quality and habit, it's a spectrum, and people arbitrarily stake out a line on that spectrum (as we do with all the other spectrums). Not intended as a judgement, just an observation.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        Hey, imagine when that "glowing rectangle" exists privately in the visual cortex ;)
    - heartbreak 9y ago
      Be sure to judge them for that, too. This forum exists because of money spent by people on their phones all day.
      - imnotlost 9y ago
        The judging is for his/her own benefit and doesn't really have anything to do with the object. "I'm a little bit better than that person because I can take an elevator ride without looking at my phone" "Our relationship is better than theirs because we can get through dinner without looking at our phones" On and on it goes... it's comforting, isn't it?
      - joezydeco 9y ago
        It was an observation of a trend. Nothing more. If are going to discuss how to instill values in our children regarding smartphones, we need to look at ourselves first.
- jancsika 9y ago
  So the question that I don't know the answer to: would those couples have engaged each other in meaningful conversation (meaningful to them) had cellphones not existed? Or does the presence of cellphones reveal that a large number of people were never particularly interested in engaging meaningfully with others but would only feign interest when the alibi of the cellphone isn't available?
  - posguy 9y ago
    Sometimes conversation may occur that otherwise would have been avoided thanks to cellphones, other times you get calming silence instead. Its a definite risk, but the whole equation is ignored usually.
    - nulagrithom 9y ago
      > other times you get calming silence instead I always like that Pulp Fiction line: "That's when you know you've found somebody special. When you can just shut the fuck up for a minute and comfortably enjoy the silence." I don't think a moment of silence is any excuse to pull out the cellphone. In fact, I think this highlights part of the problem we have with cellphones. We expect constant entertainment, action, and info. It's really rare anymore to just sit for a minute and do nothing -- and it could be that doing nothing is pretty important.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - i_cant_speel 9y ago
        This morning I was in the elevator with three other people. All three of them were looking at their phones. Strangely, I felt weird just standing there waiting. I feel like the world transformed so quickly.
        mirimir 9y ago
        I remember when I was the only one carrying a laptop. And then a cellphone. And then a smartphone. Then I zoned out on privacy and anonymity zealotry. And the next thing I knew, everyone and their little yellow dog had their face in a smartphone 24/7. WTF? Seriously, WTF?
- s3nnyy 9y ago
  > sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter Is that like a Bay Area thing? Sounds really terrible to me (I live in Europe)
  - careersuicide 9y ago
    I live in Texas. I've seen it all over here and pretty much every other state I've visited in the last few years. Maybe it's an American thing?
    - arghIdontwantto 9y ago
      You see it all around Europe as well. I live in a touristy area and Germans, English, French and Spanish are guilty of this as well. Right now I'm working from a restaurant and would say 1/4 of the people are looking at a phone (give or take, didn't count!)
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - EADGBE 9y ago
      I'd venture to guess you'd see it wherever data is cheap.
  - PascLeRasc 9y ago
    It's definitely an affluent US city thing. When I was in Spain for three weeks this summer zero of the locals had their phones out in a restaurant.
    - bonesss 9y ago
      Come visit Scandinavia: we're predicting lots of back and neck problems for this generation later in life based on constant hunched-over phone swiping :) For realsies though: it's all about the connectivity of the area you are in combined with local social norms. Sweden, Denmark, and Finland are filled with phones, 4G connections, and quiet dining tables as people read the news.
- int_19h 9y ago
  You seem to be assuming that the function of the multi-person dinner is always to engage each other. Have you considered that, for some couples at least, it's simply not the case, and there are other times when they talk? Personally, I would rarely bother with anything other than random social chit chat in a place as public as a restaurant. More involved conversations take place somewhere else more private. But why would I do random social chit chat with my spouse? It's the kind of stuff reserved for strangers and casual acquaintances.
  - rhn_mk1 9y ago
    I consider the assumption correct in most circumstances, and almost always when visiting a restaurant. Otherwise, why bother with the logistics of getting people all in the same place at the same time? I would only agree that engagement is irrelevant when leaving the table with one's food is acceptable. Otherwise there's the implication that you're there for some purpose, other than getting yourself some nutrition.
    - int_19h 9y ago
      > Otherwise, why bother with the logistics of getting people all in the same place at the same time? It's hardly a logistical problem to get two people who live together (and therefore already have largely intertwined schedules) to a restaurant. And the reason is fairly obvious: to enjoy the food.
- enobrev 9y ago
  When my wife and I first started dating, I had to nudge her out of the habit. She wouldn't sit through a whole meal staring at her phone, but if she looked something up that had to do with our conversation, she'd then end up swiping through her various addictions and end up getting caught up (as I certainly do when on my own)†. It wasn't a big deal to politely point it out and in time it almost never happened, or she would at least excuse herself to handle something quickly. I think there can be a balance. After seven years, we will sometimes go out to eat and not really have much to say. Sometimes we'll sit in silence and watch the world around us or simply enjoy our meals and quiet company. Sometimes we'll eavesdrop on our neighbors. Sometimes we'll whip our our phones and read whatever it is we read, even showing each other what we see... "Did you see so-and-so's new dog? What a cutie! Here, look" or "Take a look next time you're on Instagram". This might spark conversation about said dog, or our cat, or our workdays, or some other completely unrelated subject, or it may continue in silence. And then there are plenty of other times when neither of us can shut up for hours, carrying on, barely eating, and forgetting we even have phones. Our devices can obviously be unhealthy, especially the more addictive parts. But I think they can also be a healthy portion of our lives and relationships, provided our interactions are managed. We don't have kids yet, but I definitely think it will be an interesting challenge to help them find that right balance. † At our wedding, I urged my wife against writing her vows on her phone so she wouldn't end up swiping to buzzfeed in the middle of it.
- alaaibrahim 9y ago
  For me it's not even a conscious effort, as it feels rude to be on your phone, when you are having a meal with someone. Is it not rude to start reading a book while you are having a lunch with someone, why is the phone any different. When there is a need to look at your phone (Important message, a call, or even to look up something), I think the polite thing is to excuse yourself, do the thing really quickly, and get back to your meal.
  - hycaria 9y ago
    >Is it not rude to start reading a book while you are having a lunch with someone In my world it is though.
    - jstanley 9y ago
      You're agreeing
      - hycaria 9y ago
        You're right ! I kept reading it inverting the two first words. I even double-checked when posting because that seemed illogical. Funny how I somehow needed someone to point it out to be able to read it right.
        EADGBE 9y ago
        English grammar is pretty crazy. Does this happen in other languages, too? As often?
        wott 9y ago
        It happened to me in French a couple of months ago. I read the sentence 5 to 6 times to be sure, I even quoted it in my reply, to express how illogical the proposition was. And then the guy replied that I misunderstood. I was like: " impossible, I double-triple-quadruple-checked and quoted the relevant part". And then, blast! I saw that I got lost in the position of the negative part (it wasn't even a very complex case where negations are chained, as it happens sometimes). Worst thing is that the way I understood it, it didn't have much grammatical sense, whereas the real sentence was correct. And the fact that I had quoted the sentence proved that he hadn't edited in between. Else I would certainly have blamed him for that: I was so sure of my cautious multiple checks... I was ashamed of myself. (I had troubles with "is it"/"it is" in the present case too, I had to re-read the sentence 3 times to be sure. What confuses me in English is not really the grammar, it is the abundance of very short words, they scramble the structure of the sentence, for they are less recognizable and distinguishable from each other.)
- AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
  I deleted my Facebook account two years ago, and I am much happier as a result.
  - bdamm 9y ago
    I haven't logged on to Facebook since March, and frankly I don't miss it. I'm not happier since I've instead filled that time with vapid alternatives such as HN.
    - EADGBE 9y ago
      Much easier to trade one vice for another, than to remove the vice altogether.
  - EADGBE 9y ago
    I've deleted my Facebook and Instagram apps from my phone since last Tuesday. Much happier. I like the potentiality of being able to log into it with the Browser, but giving myself just enough resistance to not go through with it. I feel like it gives me more power to my decisions. Also, I have lots of good friends and family who user Messenger frequently and I'd hate to miss their messages on that. Also, related, I've removed notifications from nearly all my apps. That's nearly the same effect as removing the app altogether from my phone.
- irishasaurus 9y ago
  I'd say 9 out of 10 of those couples you see on their screens in a restaurant are on a first date.
  - jussij 9y ago
    Would that not be the one time you have your phone off, with you paying full attention? Or are you describing a first and last date situation?
  - maccard 9y ago
    I regularly go out for dinner with my partner, and sometimes we sit and talk for 3 hours, not noticing where the time goes. Other times, we sit in silence, enjoy our food, and head home together. And other times, we will sit, chat, and maybe take our phones out for a little while. Don't judge a relationship based on a single observation.
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >(I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off.") Your mortgage might be more expensive than it should be because of your facebook account. https://www.ft.com/content/e8ccd7b8-6459-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa https://www.ft.com/content/e8ccd7b8-6459-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef0... If the cost of your home increases by $10,000 in extra interest over the lifespan of the mortgage due to things your friends post on your facebook wall and you use facebook for 80 years of your life, will you still be happy with your $125 per year facebook subscription?
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    Doesn't it follow that it might be cheaper as well? Especially for this audience
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      >Doesn't it follow that it might be cheaper as well? Especially for this audience That's not up to you, credit score systems based on your social media profile examine your friends as much as they do you. Job prospects are also affected by how your friends post and present on facebook: http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/facebook-friends-matter/ http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/facebook-friends-matter/ Remember: How your friends express themselves affects your financial future, so work hard to keep them in line citizen!
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    So set your account to friends-only. It's easy and you should be doing it anyway.
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      Dude, Facebook is the one exporting the data. The friends only flag doesn't do shit.
      - Sargos 9y ago
- EADGBE 9y ago
  > I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess. It's important to remember this fact. Too many people judge others based on their own ideologies. It's their life; not your own. I'm just as guilty as everyone else to judge, but I'm working on it.
- importantbrian 9y ago
  My friends and I will often play this game where everyone puts their phone face down in the middle of the table. If you touch your phone before the check comes you get to pay the bill.
- vidarh 9y ago
  I make a difference between a date or other explicitly agreed "dinner as a shared experience" and a random meal. At a date or family dinner, the phone stays away. But meals can be purely functional too, and then I may sit there with my whole laptop for that matter. What's important to me is that there is sufficient device free time whether over a meal or otherwise. Then it's fine if some meals aren't amongst those times. But eating out at anything above a fast food place certainly are amongst the device-free times... And often fast food meals are too.
forinti 9y ago
All my family's meals are device-free. My kids don't even question it: they turn the TV off themselves when we call them. We have one TV in the house and it can't be turned on in the morning. The kids don't seem to suffer at all.
- socialist_coder 9y ago
  My house is the same way, but I think you have to realize that we're in the vast minority though. Whenever I'm visiting with family in the US, their TV is usually on. It's constantly on. The kids run around with devices with very little oversight or limits. It's absolutely terrible, but's also super common. Sigh.
  - Frank2312 9y ago
    My sister does that. She just keeps the TV on at all times. Watching a show on Netflix on her tablet? TV on. Takes a shower and is in the bathroom for 30-45 minutes? TV on. Leaves the house and someone is there, though not watching TV? Let's TV on. I have to shut it down myself. I have absolutely no idea how she picked up that habit. No one in the (immediate) family does it.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Some people like background noise, not a fan myself.
      - Nition 9y ago
        If pure background noise is the goal, a radio would waste a lot less electricity.
        TomMarius 9y ago
        You're of course true, but nowadays the consumption of a TV isn't that tragic.
        9y ago
libria 9y ago
> _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. Why should all dinners be distraction[1] free? I understand dinner is a social event for many cultures/families, but not every person wants this nor am I convinced it must be this way. I'm efficient with my eating and when the family wants to socialize we play Catan or sit around the couch and talk. Besides that, when the dinner conversation reaches an impasse, Alexa has occasionally been helpful in resolving it. It's fine if people enjoy socializing over dinner, but let's not arbitrarily assume it's morally superior. Nor should we mistakenly compare it to our own childhoods, when devices weren't as ubiquitous. We should question old habits/traditions especially when the environment has changed. [1] I'm subbing in "distraction" for "device", my kids have brought non-powered distractions to the table before.
- citizenkeen 9y ago
  > Why should all dinners be distraction[1] free? Sure, fine. I was mostly critiquing the notion that a "distraction" free dinner was an event that needed to be planned, as opposed to something approaching a default.
- sndean 9y ago
  > [1] I'm subbing in "distraction" for "device", my kids have brought non-powered distractions to the table before. This is a good point. I remember my mom getting mad when I'd bring a book to the table (c. 1995). If it's not a phone, it's something else.
  - OJFord 9y ago
    I do think you might talk to me, Charles. I've had a very exhausting day! Take me out of myself!
  - flukus 9y ago
    Same for me, a book or a gameboy at the dinner table would result in a clip around the ears. My parents weren't strict in the slightest, but dinner time was the 10-20 minutes where we all sat down together as a family and put up with mums political views.
nsxwolf 9y ago
I agree but some of these things sound like moral panics about black rectangles. I don't remember people shaking their heads at parents reading a paperback book at the park, or commuters reading broadsheet newspapers on the train.
- forinti 9y ago
  But cellphones and these endless scrolling social apps that get our attention aren't really the same thing as books or even newspapers. They just seem to suck your ability to focus out of you and don't really give you back anything.
  - heartbreak 9y ago
    I for one read books on my phone at the park. How’s that any different from reading a paperback book at the park?
    - macNchz 9y ago
      There's no real difference in that situation, but people don't generally read paperback books when out to dinner with friends, while driving on the highway, while walking on a crowded sidewalk, during a movie at the theater, during class at school or in a meeting at work... which are all common situations where I regularly see people glued to their phones.
      - heartbreak 9y ago
        Why do you assume that people are wasting their time when they’re on their phones?
        macNchz 9y ago
        I wasn't necessarily implying that what people are doing on their phones in those various situations is a waste of time, but trying to showcase the sheer distractive power of smartphones vs traditional media.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ProAm 9y ago
> Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. Fairly judgemental on how people should live their lives no?
- chki 9y ago
  How is this judgemental or, to be more concise, how is this inappropriately judgemental? The parent comment is explicitly talking about how they "feel" about people using their phones and then continues to explain their situation. It is not forcing it's opinion on anyone and not ruling out other ways to handle phone usage. I'm not sure how the comment should have presented the opinion in a different way so that it wouldn't be "judgemental" but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.
jessaustin 9y ago
We have a landline expressly to give out to emergency contacts. So the calls you get on that line are 98% telemarketers?
clean_send 9y ago
"I think the main problem is tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, and parents just aren't prepared to fight the battles / put in the work. A parent who is staring at Instagram when they're at the park shouldn't be surprised that their kids wants screens, too." As a technologist who is in their early career, I love this sentiment. Too often do I see people blaming younger generations for an addiction to screens. The reality exists that parenting with the intention for balance will be what ultimate keeps children away from screens not blaming the industry as a whole.
- Markoff 9y ago
  well I can tell them I was not staring at display when I was young so they can wait until same age as I started to stare to be on par
JKCalhoun 9y ago
> tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, Nicely put.
rconti 9y ago
It seemed pretty clear from the context that she was referring not to a solitary instance, but a dinnertime prohibition on electronics. And if not, it's a good place to start.
JoshMnem 9y ago
That is mind-boggling. When I grew up in the 80s (before mobile devices), the rule was "don't read at the table." Generally, no TV during meals either. Life is short -- meals with devices seem like a waste of prime time together.
avip 9y ago
You nailed it. The problem is not "kids with Tech". The problem is parents giving away their attention to "a device" instead of "a child". And make no mistakes - it is instead of.
hammock 9y ago
Eh.. I still remember growing up, friends would call during dinner and you'd go answer it (landline). And at a certain age, my parents realized how important social stuff was they'd let me talk to them Also for the longest time we weren't allowed to watch TV, however in later years of my childhood this rule was relaxed. Of course it was never in the room we ate in, that would be terrible although I know many families are in front of the TV).
sigkill 9y ago
I'm copy-pasting my own comment that I wrote 1087 days ago. Seems relevant even today. * Begin paste * The common factor in all these time-sinks is not the phone, but it's the internet. I have a smartphone and although I could definitely live without it, the only thing I've done is disable data. Rather, I'm too cheap to pay for data. What difference does that make, you ask? One, on messaging, people would use text to contact me or each other if they notice that WhatsApp/Talk message hasn't reached for a couple of minutes. And a call is very helpful to transmit high density info in short time. Two, I can still use my very nice phone with a large screen to watch videos, read ebooks on the go like if I'm in a bus or something. The difference here is that these things are not infinity-sinks in my experience - I can go 1 hour or so reading a book on a cellphone but then need to take a break which is when you look up and around. Also, subconsciously, the permanence of the book/video prioritizes real world interrupts (in an embedded programming context) rather than blocking them. Then, you always have music that you can copy to the phone and listen to if you don't want to put your face to the screen. This enables you to move your head around everywhere and still not be all that bored because you still have that music going on. If I absolutely want, which is almost never, I play games but I find that mobile games are not something that I like so it never comes up at all. But a lot of time, I've just noticed myself looking around, just absorbing the world around me and being in my own thoughts rather than a forced stimulus and I find that relaxing unless I'm stuck in a very noisy environment in which case the earphone doubles up as a noise blocker. And the general trend I've heard here is that you need to be on email. But work already has wifi and if you're at work your computer is right in front of you. Secondly, aren't you making a big mistake by configuring work email on your phone? Maybe I'm the second coming of RMS but I do not install Facebook and Twitter apps on my phone for privacy reasons. Checking at most once everyday seems to be enough for me but I know that's not the case with everyone. It seems a lot of plans are made over fb for you guys, which is understandable - we use hangouts and whatsapp over here, but primarily whatsapp. But more importantly, for immediate plans we generally use SMS and phone calls which might be why we're not as reliant on facebook. FB is considered more of a public 'show-off' billboard than a private friend group. So yeah, maybe this was worthy of its own blog-post but my gist here is that turning off the data does wonders. You still get to retain those handy unit converters, two factor authenticators, password wallets and other things that are yours without the Skinner box annoyances of the infinity-sinks. Of course, before someone rants "You don't know how important it is to have internet on my phone", I'd say you're obviously right. However, maybe after reading my post, you realize that it isn't all that important then kudos to you. You should atleast try it once before knocking it right? A lot of times we think "It's impossible to get through without X" but humans are surprisingly adaptive and can cope without X just fine. I'm just sharing my experience, hoping that it's useful to you. * End paste
saurik 9y ago
When you eat with someone multiple times a day, every single day, for decades, sometimes eating is just a utilitarian task you are performing to fuel your body and to not be hungry. Why does it always have to be social? When I was a kid in the 80s, we often would just get plates of food and go back to whereever we had been doing whatever we had been doing. I am someone who grew up to hate notifications: my phone is on silent; and when I am present with you having an actual meal, you have my 100% attention in a way no one else I know does anymore. I say this to make it clear that I didn't grow up to dislike social dinners: if anything, I grew up to love them as they were never forced on me.
- tannhauser23 9y ago
  Do you have kids? Dinner might be the only 30-60 minute block of the day when you have the entire family in the same place, enjoying each other's company. Almost certainly so on weekdays.
  - criddell 9y ago
    Built into that statement is the assumption that the members of the family want to spend time with each other. That's often not true, especially with teenagers.
  - Markoff 9y ago
    I dunno, having family I would actually prefer to have my own time for at least 30-60 minutes per day without disturbing.
nugga 9y ago
One thing I've noticed is that when I'm distracted (e.g. using a device) and not mindfully eating I fail to fully taste and appreciate the food. It's as if most of my conscious focus is shifted elsewhere than my mouth and tongue. It's like you probably weren't aware of the feeling of your left elbow before reading this sentence. Because of this I try to eat at least some of my meals, especially breakfast, without doing anything else.
peter303 9y ago
Go to any Millennial or iGen feeding space and you'll see a bunch of zombies lost in their screens and rarely interacting with each other. Very sad.
NoGravitas 9y ago
Yeah, the dinner table at our house is always device-free (and book-free). Breakfast and lunch usually are, too, with the caveat that if there are only two people at the table and both of them want to read, then fine.
deepGem 9y ago
Tech has made real interactions hard, not just parenting. How many times have we sat for dinners or lunches with friends staring at our phones. I say we because I am guilty of this behaviour. It is not hard to fathom a future dystopian world in which most human interaction is through a tech medium.
zamalek 9y ago
My brother uses an app to restrict what time his kids can use their devices. During dinner every night they are only allowed to call (and there is a no phone policy for everyone else, even guests). They complained and complained for more than a year. Now they complain about their friends never getting off their phones. Irresponsibility with tech is a new danger that we have to teach our kids about.
ddacunha 9y ago
Isn't the problem the same but with different technology? I remember families that had a no TV policy while other spent diner watching soap operas. I was surprised the first time I had diner at a friends place with his parents and there only was music in the background.

careersuicide 9y ago

I think this is the one thing about technology I'm old fashioned about (I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off."). If I'm eating food with someone else the phone goes away. The only exception is if in the course of conversation an easily googleable question is asked and both the other person/people and I are actually interested in the answer instead of just guessing. But after that the phone goes right back in my pocket. It's not a hard rule, but it's one I do make a conscious effort to follow. I've noticed that others are a lot less likely to pull out their phones and stare while at the table if I don't do it myself. There's just something kinda sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter and there's still food on their plates. I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess.

dannysu 9y ago
It's true. I was having hot pot with my wife the other day. Sitting near us was a couple, both on their phones the whole time and not looking at each other. When I first played with smartphone, it was before most people had phones with Internet (it was pre-iPhone). Someone commented on how I was on the phone all the time and the lesson stuck with me ever since. Now I don't do that to people.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  Look around in any restaurant these days and you'll easily see half of the adults in the room engaged with their phones at some part of the evening, if not most of it.
  - posguy 9y ago
    The occasional check of your phone is very different than staring at your glowing rectangle through the entire dinner, ignoring those you are with entirely.
    - eric_h 9y ago
      Like literally every human quality and habit, it's a spectrum, and people arbitrarily stake out a line on that spectrum (as we do with all the other spectrums). Not intended as a judgement, just an observation.
    - mirimir 9y ago
      Hey, imagine when that "glowing rectangle" exists privately in the visual cortex ;)
  - heartbreak 9y ago
    Be sure to judge them for that, too. This forum exists because of money spent by people on their phones all day.
    - imnotlost 9y ago
      The judging is for his/her own benefit and doesn't really have anything to do with the object. "I'm a little bit better than that person because I can take an elevator ride without looking at my phone" "Our relationship is better than theirs because we can get through dinner without looking at our phones" On and on it goes... it's comforting, isn't it?
    - joezydeco 9y ago
      It was an observation of a trend. Nothing more. If are going to discuss how to instill values in our children regarding smartphones, we need to look at ourselves first.
jancsika 9y ago
So the question that I don't know the answer to: would those couples have engaged each other in meaningful conversation (meaningful to them) had cellphones not existed? Or does the presence of cellphones reveal that a large number of people were never particularly interested in engaging meaningfully with others but would only feign interest when the alibi of the cellphone isn't available?
- posguy 9y ago
  Sometimes conversation may occur that otherwise would have been avoided thanks to cellphones, other times you get calming silence instead. Its a definite risk, but the whole equation is ignored usually.
  - nulagrithom 9y ago
    > other times you get calming silence instead I always like that Pulp Fiction line: "That's when you know you've found somebody special. When you can just shut the fuck up for a minute and comfortably enjoy the silence." I don't think a moment of silence is any excuse to pull out the cellphone. In fact, I think this highlights part of the problem we have with cellphones. We expect constant entertainment, action, and info. It's really rare anymore to just sit for a minute and do nothing -- and it could be that doing nothing is pretty important.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - i_cant_speel 9y ago
      This morning I was in the elevator with three other people. All three of them were looking at their phones. Strangely, I felt weird just standing there waiting. I feel like the world transformed so quickly.
      - mirimir 9y ago
        I remember when I was the only one carrying a laptop. And then a cellphone. And then a smartphone. Then I zoned out on privacy and anonymity zealotry. And the next thing I knew, everyone and their little yellow dog had their face in a smartphone 24/7. WTF? Seriously, WTF?
s3nnyy 9y ago
> sad to me when I see couples at a niceish restaurant and neither person is talking and both are looking at Facebook or Twitter Is that like a Bay Area thing? Sounds really terrible to me (I live in Europe)
- careersuicide 9y ago
  I live in Texas. I've seen it all over here and pretty much every other state I've visited in the last few years. Maybe it's an American thing?
  - arghIdontwantto 9y ago
    You see it all around Europe as well. I live in a touristy area and Germans, English, French and Spanish are guilty of this as well. Right now I'm working from a restaurant and would say 1/4 of the people are looking at a phone (give or take, didn't count!)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - EADGBE 9y ago
    I'd venture to guess you'd see it wherever data is cheap.
- PascLeRasc 9y ago
  It's definitely an affluent US city thing. When I was in Spain for three weeks this summer zero of the locals had their phones out in a restaurant.
  - bonesss 9y ago
    Come visit Scandinavia: we're predicting lots of back and neck problems for this generation later in life based on constant hunched-over phone swiping :) For realsies though: it's all about the connectivity of the area you are in combined with local social norms. Sweden, Denmark, and Finland are filled with phones, 4G connections, and quiet dining tables as people read the news.
int_19h 9y ago
You seem to be assuming that the function of the multi-person dinner is always to engage each other. Have you considered that, for some couples at least, it's simply not the case, and there are other times when they talk? Personally, I would rarely bother with anything other than random social chit chat in a place as public as a restaurant. More involved conversations take place somewhere else more private. But why would I do random social chit chat with my spouse? It's the kind of stuff reserved for strangers and casual acquaintances.
- rhn_mk1 9y ago
  I consider the assumption correct in most circumstances, and almost always when visiting a restaurant. Otherwise, why bother with the logistics of getting people all in the same place at the same time? I would only agree that engagement is irrelevant when leaving the table with one's food is acceptable. Otherwise there's the implication that you're there for some purpose, other than getting yourself some nutrition.
  - int_19h 9y ago
    > Otherwise, why bother with the logistics of getting people all in the same place at the same time? It's hardly a logistical problem to get two people who live together (and therefore already have largely intertwined schedules) to a restaurant. And the reason is fairly obvious: to enjoy the food.
enobrev 9y ago
When my wife and I first started dating, I had to nudge her out of the habit. She wouldn't sit through a whole meal staring at her phone, but if she looked something up that had to do with our conversation, she'd then end up swiping through her various addictions and end up getting caught up (as I certainly do when on my own)†. It wasn't a big deal to politely point it out and in time it almost never happened, or she would at least excuse herself to handle something quickly. I think there can be a balance. After seven years, we will sometimes go out to eat and not really have much to say. Sometimes we'll sit in silence and watch the world around us or simply enjoy our meals and quiet company. Sometimes we'll eavesdrop on our neighbors. Sometimes we'll whip our our phones and read whatever it is we read, even showing each other what we see... "Did you see so-and-so's new dog? What a cutie! Here, look" or "Take a look next time you're on Instagram". This might spark conversation about said dog, or our cat, or our workdays, or some other completely unrelated subject, or it may continue in silence. And then there are plenty of other times when neither of us can shut up for hours, carrying on, barely eating, and forgetting we even have phones. Our devices can obviously be unhealthy, especially the more addictive parts. But I think they can also be a healthy portion of our lives and relationships, provided our interactions are managed. We don't have kids yet, but I definitely think it will be an interesting challenge to help them find that right balance. † At our wedding, I urged my wife against writing her vows on her phone so she wouldn't end up swiping to buzzfeed in the middle of it.
alaaibrahim 9y ago
For me it's not even a conscious effort, as it feels rude to be on your phone, when you are having a meal with someone. Is it not rude to start reading a book while you are having a lunch with someone, why is the phone any different. When there is a need to look at your phone (Important message, a call, or even to look up something), I think the polite thing is to excuse yourself, do the thing really quickly, and get back to your meal.
- hycaria 9y ago
  >Is it not rude to start reading a book while you are having a lunch with someone In my world it is though.
  - jstanley 9y ago
    You're agreeing
    - hycaria 9y ago
      You're right ! I kept reading it inverting the two first words. I even double-checked when posting because that seemed illogical. Funny how I somehow needed someone to point it out to be able to read it right.
      - EADGBE 9y ago
        English grammar is pretty crazy. Does this happen in other languages, too? As often?
        wott 9y ago
        It happened to me in French a couple of months ago. I read the sentence 5 to 6 times to be sure, I even quoted it in my reply, to express how illogical the proposition was. And then the guy replied that I misunderstood. I was like: " impossible, I double-triple-quadruple-checked and quoted the relevant part". And then, blast! I saw that I got lost in the position of the negative part (it wasn't even a very complex case where negations are chained, as it happens sometimes). Worst thing is that the way I understood it, it didn't have much grammatical sense, whereas the real sentence was correct. And the fact that I had quoted the sentence proved that he hadn't edited in between. Else I would certainly have blamed him for that: I was so sure of my cautious multiple checks... I was ashamed of myself. (I had troubles with "is it"/"it is" in the present case too, I had to re-read the sentence 3 times to be sure. What confuses me in English is not really the grammar, it is the abundance of very short words, they scramble the structure of the sentence, for they are less recognizable and distinguishable from each other.)
AndrewUnmuted 9y ago
I deleted my Facebook account two years ago, and I am much happier as a result.
- bdamm 9y ago
  I haven't logged on to Facebook since March, and frankly I don't miss it. I'm not happier since I've instead filled that time with vapid alternatives such as HN.
  - EADGBE 9y ago
    Much easier to trade one vice for another, than to remove the vice altogether.
- EADGBE 9y ago
  I've deleted my Facebook and Instagram apps from my phone since last Tuesday. Much happier. I like the potentiality of being able to log into it with the Browser, but giving myself just enough resistance to not go through with it. I feel like it gives me more power to my decisions. Also, I have lots of good friends and family who user Messenger frequently and I'd hate to miss their messages on that. Also, related, I've removed notifications from nearly all my apps. That's nearly the same effect as removing the app altogether from my phone.
irishasaurus 9y ago
I'd say 9 out of 10 of those couples you see on their screens in a restaurant are on a first date.
- jussij 9y ago
  Would that not be the one time you have your phone off, with you paying full attention? Or are you describing a first and last date situation?
- maccard 9y ago
  I regularly go out for dinner with my partner, and sometimes we sit and talk for 3 hours, not noticing where the time goes. Other times, we sit in silence, enjoy our food, and head home together. And other times, we will sit, chat, and maybe take our phones out for a little while. Don't judge a relationship based on a single observation.
Sir_Substance 9y ago
>(I roll my eyes hard when people say stuff like "You should delete your Facebook account, you'll be better off.") Your mortgage might be more expensive than it should be because of your facebook account. https://www.ft.com/content/e8ccd7b8-6459-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef00aa https://www.ft.com/content/e8ccd7b8-6459-11e6-a08a-c7ac04ef0... If the cost of your home increases by $10,000 in extra interest over the lifespan of the mortgage due to things your friends post on your facebook wall and you use facebook for 80 years of your life, will you still be happy with your $125 per year facebook subscription?
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  Doesn't it follow that it might be cheaper as well? Especially for this audience
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    >Doesn't it follow that it might be cheaper as well? Especially for this audience That's not up to you, credit score systems based on your social media profile examine your friends as much as they do you. Job prospects are also affected by how your friends post and present on facebook: http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/facebook-friends-matter/ http://theundercoverrecruiter.com/facebook-friends-matter/ Remember: How your friends express themselves affects your financial future, so work hard to keep them in line citizen!
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  So set your account to friends-only. It's easy and you should be doing it anyway.
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    Dude, Facebook is the one exporting the data. The friends only flag doesn't do shit.
    - Sargos 9y ago
EADGBE 9y ago
> I know you can't extrapolate that to a person's entire relationship, but it just seems kinda... unfortunate I guess. It's important to remember this fact. Too many people judge others based on their own ideologies. It's their life; not your own. I'm just as guilty as everyone else to judge, but I'm working on it.
importantbrian 9y ago
My friends and I will often play this game where everyone puts their phone face down in the middle of the table. If you touch your phone before the check comes you get to pay the bill.
vidarh 9y ago
I make a difference between a date or other explicitly agreed "dinner as a shared experience" and a random meal. At a date or family dinner, the phone stays away. But meals can be purely functional too, and then I may sit there with my whole laptop for that matter. What's important to me is that there is sufficient device free time whether over a meal or otherwise. Then it's fine if some meals aren't amongst those times. But eating out at anything above a fast food place certainly are amongst the device-free times... And often fast food meals are too.

forinti 9y ago

All my family's meals are device-free. My kids don't even question it: they turn the TV off themselves when we call them. We have one TV in the house and it can't be turned on in the morning. The kids don't seem to suffer at all.

socialist_coder 9y ago
My house is the same way, but I think you have to realize that we're in the vast minority though. Whenever I'm visiting with family in the US, their TV is usually on. It's constantly on. The kids run around with devices with very little oversight or limits. It's absolutely terrible, but's also super common. Sigh.
- Frank2312 9y ago
  My sister does that. She just keeps the TV on at all times. Watching a show on Netflix on her tablet? TV on. Takes a shower and is in the bathroom for 30-45 minutes? TV on. Leaves the house and someone is there, though not watching TV? Let's TV on. I have to shut it down myself. I have absolutely no idea how she picked up that habit. No one in the (immediate) family does it.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    Some people like background noise, not a fan myself.
    - Nition 9y ago
      If pure background noise is the goal, a radio would waste a lot less electricity.
      - TomMarius 9y ago
        You're of course true, but nowadays the consumption of a TV isn't that tragic.
      - 9y ago

libria 9y ago

> _A_ device free dinner? Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. Why should all dinners be distraction[1] free? I understand dinner is a social event for many cultures/families, but not every person wants this nor am I convinced it must be this way. I'm efficient with my eating and when the family wants to socialize we play Catan or sit around the couch and talk. Besides that, when the dinner conversation reaches an impasse, Alexa has occasionally been helpful in resolving it. It's fine if people enjoy socializing over dinner, but let's not arbitrarily assume it's morally superior. Nor should we mistakenly compare it to our own childhoods, when devices weren't as ubiquitous. We should question old habits/traditions especially when the environment has changed. [1] I'm subbing in "distraction" for "device", my kids have brought non-powered distractions to the table before.

citizenkeen 9y ago
> Why should all dinners be distraction[1] free? Sure, fine. I was mostly critiquing the notion that a "distraction" free dinner was an event that needed to be planned, as opposed to something approaching a default.
sndean 9y ago
> [1] I'm subbing in "distraction" for "device", my kids have brought non-powered distractions to the table before. This is a good point. I remember my mom getting mad when I'd bring a book to the table (c. 1995). If it's not a phone, it's something else.
- OJFord 9y ago
  I do think you might talk to me, Charles. I've had a very exhausting day! Take me out of myself!
- flukus 9y ago
  Same for me, a book or a gameboy at the dinner table would result in a clip around the ears. My parents weren't strict in the slightest, but dinner time was the 10-20 minutes where we all sat down together as a family and put up with mums political views.

nsxwolf 9y ago

I agree but some of these things sound like moral panics about black rectangles. I don't remember people shaking their heads at parents reading a paperback book at the park, or commuters reading broadsheet newspapers on the train.

forinti 9y ago
But cellphones and these endless scrolling social apps that get our attention aren't really the same thing as books or even newspapers. They just seem to suck your ability to focus out of you and don't really give you back anything.
- heartbreak 9y ago
  I for one read books on my phone at the park. How’s that any different from reading a paperback book at the park?
  - macNchz 9y ago
    There's no real difference in that situation, but people don't generally read paperback books when out to dinner with friends, while driving on the highway, while walking on a crowded sidewalk, during a movie at the theater, during class at school or in a meeting at work... which are all common situations where I regularly see people glued to their phones.
    - heartbreak 9y ago
      Why do you assume that people are wasting their time when they’re on their phones?
      - macNchz 9y ago
        I wasn't necessarily implying that what people are doing on their phones in those various situations is a waste of time, but trying to showcase the sheer distractive power of smartphones vs traditional media.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ProAm 9y ago

> Why aren't all of them? These weird little "small gestures" make me feel like people have lost control of their homes. Fairly judgemental on how people should live their lives no?

chki 9y ago
How is this judgemental or, to be more concise, how is this inappropriately judgemental? The parent comment is explicitly talking about how they "feel" about people using their phones and then continues to explain their situation. It is not forcing it's opinion on anyone and not ruling out other ways to handle phone usage. I'm not sure how the comment should have presented the opinion in a different way so that it wouldn't be "judgemental" but I'd be interested in your viewpoint.

jessaustin 9y ago

We have a landline expressly to give out to emergency contacts. So the calls you get on that line are 98% telemarketers?

clean_send 9y ago

"I think the main problem is tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, and parents just aren't prepared to fight the battles / put in the work. A parent who is staring at Instagram when they're at the park shouldn't be surprised that their kids wants screens, too." As a technologist who is in their early career, I love this sentiment. Too often do I see people blaming younger generations for an addiction to screens. The reality exists that parenting with the intention for balance will be what ultimate keeps children away from screens not blaming the industry as a whole.

Markoff 9y ago
well I can tell them I was not staring at display when I was young so they can wait until same age as I started to stare to be on par

JKCalhoun 9y ago

> tech has made everything _else_ easier, but parenting harder, Nicely put.

rconti 9y ago

It seemed pretty clear from the context that she was referring not to a solitary instance, but a dinnertime prohibition on electronics. And if not, it's a good place to start.

JoshMnem 9y ago

That is mind-boggling. When I grew up in the 80s (before mobile devices), the rule was "don't read at the table." Generally, no TV during meals either. Life is short -- meals with devices seem like a waste of prime time together.

avip 9y ago

You nailed it. The problem is not "kids with Tech". The problem is parents giving away their attention to "a device" instead of "a child". And make no mistakes - it is instead of.

hammock 9y ago

Eh.. I still remember growing up, friends would call during dinner and you'd go answer it (landline). And at a certain age, my parents realized how important social stuff was they'd let me talk to them Also for the longest time we weren't allowed to watch TV, however in later years of my childhood this rule was relaxed. Of course it was never in the room we ate in, that would be terrible although I know many families are in front of the TV).

sigkill 9y ago

I'm copy-pasting my own comment that I wrote 1087 days ago. Seems relevant even today. * Begin paste * The common factor in all these time-sinks is not the phone, but it's the internet. I have a smartphone and although I could definitely live without it, the only thing I've done is disable data. Rather, I'm too cheap to pay for data. What difference does that make, you ask? One, on messaging, people would use text to contact me or each other if they notice that WhatsApp/Talk message hasn't reached for a couple of minutes. And a call is very helpful to transmit high density info in short time. Two, I can still use my very nice phone with a large screen to watch videos, read ebooks on the go like if I'm in a bus or something. The difference here is that these things are not infinity-sinks in my experience - I can go 1 hour or so reading a book on a cellphone but then need to take a break which is when you look up and around. Also, subconsciously, the permanence of the book/video prioritizes real world interrupts (in an embedded programming context) rather than blocking them. Then, you always have music that you can copy to the phone and listen to if you don't want to put your face to the screen. This enables you to move your head around everywhere and still not be all that bored because you still have that music going on. If I absolutely want, which is almost never, I play games but I find that mobile games are not something that I like so it never comes up at all. But a lot of time, I've just noticed myself looking around, just absorbing the world around me and being in my own thoughts rather than a forced stimulus and I find that relaxing unless I'm stuck in a very noisy environment in which case the earphone doubles up as a noise blocker. And the general trend I've heard here is that you need to be on email. But work already has wifi and if you're at work your computer is right in front of you. Secondly, aren't you making a big mistake by configuring work email on your phone? Maybe I'm the second coming of RMS but I do not install Facebook and Twitter apps on my phone for privacy reasons. Checking at most once everyday seems to be enough for me but I know that's not the case with everyone. It seems a lot of plans are made over fb for you guys, which is understandable - we use hangouts and whatsapp over here, but primarily whatsapp. But more importantly, for immediate plans we generally use SMS and phone calls which might be why we're not as reliant on facebook. FB is considered more of a public 'show-off' billboard than a private friend group. So yeah, maybe this was worthy of its own blog-post but my gist here is that turning off the data does wonders. You still get to retain those handy unit converters, two factor authenticators, password wallets and other things that are yours without the Skinner box annoyances of the infinity-sinks. Of course, before someone rants "You don't know how important it is to have internet on my phone", I'd say you're obviously right. However, maybe after reading my post, you realize that it isn't all that important then kudos to you. You should atleast try it once before knocking it right? A lot of times we think "It's impossible to get through without X" but humans are surprisingly adaptive and can cope without X just fine. I'm just sharing my experience, hoping that it's useful to you. * End paste

saurik 9y ago

When you eat with someone multiple times a day, every single day, for decades, sometimes eating is just a utilitarian task you are performing to fuel your body and to not be hungry. Why does it always have to be social? When I was a kid in the 80s, we often would just get plates of food and go back to whereever we had been doing whatever we had been doing. I am someone who grew up to hate notifications: my phone is on silent; and when I am present with you having an actual meal, you have my 100% attention in a way no one else I know does anymore. I say this to make it clear that I didn't grow up to dislike social dinners: if anything, I grew up to love them as they were never forced on me.

tannhauser23 9y ago
Do you have kids? Dinner might be the only 30-60 minute block of the day when you have the entire family in the same place, enjoying each other's company. Almost certainly so on weekdays.
- criddell 9y ago
  Built into that statement is the assumption that the members of the family want to spend time with each other. That's often not true, especially with teenagers.
- Markoff 9y ago
  I dunno, having family I would actually prefer to have my own time for at least 30-60 minutes per day without disturbing.

nugga 9y ago

One thing I've noticed is that when I'm distracted (e.g. using a device) and not mindfully eating I fail to fully taste and appreciate the food. It's as if most of my conscious focus is shifted elsewhere than my mouth and tongue. It's like you probably weren't aware of the feeling of your left elbow before reading this sentence. Because of this I try to eat at least some of my meals, especially breakfast, without doing anything else.

peter303 9y ago

Go to any Millennial or iGen feeding space and you'll see a bunch of zombies lost in their screens and rarely interacting with each other. Very sad.

NoGravitas 9y ago

Yeah, the dinner table at our house is always device-free (and book-free). Breakfast and lunch usually are, too, with the caveat that if there are only two people at the table and both of them want to read, then fine.

deepGem 9y ago

Tech has made real interactions hard, not just parenting. How many times have we sat for dinners or lunches with friends staring at our phones. I say we because I am guilty of this behaviour. It is not hard to fathom a future dystopian world in which most human interaction is through a tech medium.

zamalek 9y ago

My brother uses an app to restrict what time his kids can use their devices. During dinner every night they are only allowed to call (and there is a no phone policy for everyone else, even guests). They complained and complained for more than a year. Now they complain about their friends never getting off their phones. Irresponsibility with tech is a new danger that we have to teach our kids about.

ddacunha 9y ago

Isn't the problem the same but with different technology? I remember families that had a no TV policy while other spent diner watching soap operas. I was surprised the first time I had diner at a friends place with his parents and there only was music in the background.