25 ms·
Concrete-free washing machines are lighter to transport, just as good in a spin
- the-dude 9y agoThis seems to be such an incredible innovation, the questions arise : is it really feasible and why has it not happened before?
- vbuwivbiu 9y agoit's one of those ideas that seems so obvious and sensible in retrospect it makes you wonder how many other stupid designs are hidden in plain view, and why did this problem not get solved until 2017, when there are robots on Mars and probes orbiting Jupiter and Saturn ?
- DiThi 9y agoI got this idea long ago but I couldn't think of a way of using this idea. Then I thought it was obvious and that it was not implemented for some non obvious reason I didn't know.
- amelius 9y agoSame here.
- 21 9y agoA block of concrete is cheap and zero maintanance. And the machine typically is carried only twice in it's lifetime. A water reservoir needs some way of filling, thus extra work for the buyer (typical ad: our washing machine doesn't need filling as those clunky reservoir ones!!!), maybe requires some maintenance. If you leave water in it for years it will rot, so probably you also need to put some disinfectants in. So basically this idea is more environmentally sane, but more expensive. But there could be a market here, people care and are willing to spend more these days to save the env.
- DiThi 9y ago> thus extra work for the buyer The soap water inlet can be a flexible tube that one can put inside the reservoir, then push a button and the exact amount of water is added (or some more and have it overflow to the drum). > maybe requires some maintenance Not if done correctly. And if it wasn't done correctly it seems easy to fix. > so probably you also need to put some disinfectants in They can just come with a bleach tablet inside.
- agumonkey 9y agoI'm already trying hard not to fall into full alankayism [1] and this only reinforces my view. Jobs said that many people in companies are clueless... [1] for people that never watched his talk where he demonstrates how pretty old and forgotten software can be, enjoy this fully https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LZLYcu_JY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LZLYcu_JY
- Matt_Mickiewicz 9y agoJust think about the time gap between the invention of the wheel and until the 1970's when someone finally thought of attaching them to a suitcase!
- dsfyu404ed 9y agoBecause it wasn't a priority. Plastic is more expensive than concrete. It's only now that "look how green we are" is able to tip the balance to where it's worth implementing. If someone really wanted they could come up with a more complicated counterbalance solution and probably eliminate the dead weight entirely. I really want to see how they came up with their numbers. I suspect that they're overly optimistic. +/-100lb isn't going to matter for fuel consumption in the last mile and the CO2 cost of picking up and replacing one that failed under warranty would likely negate many hundreds of machines worth of reduced fuel consumption before the last mile.
- omtose 9y agoI somewhat doubt that a hollow plastic tank is significantly more expensive than a concrete block. Factor in the added cost of shipping the much heavier concrete block, and it seems like the manufacturer would also save money in the process.
- jon-wood 9y agoIs it that much more expensive to ship something in bulk with additional weight? I honestly don't know how distance shipping by the container works, but I always thought it was just a case of being billed based on volume.
- Retric 9y agoIn bulk you basically per 40' container which are usually kept under ~45,000lbs* and have 67.7 m3 volume. So, you are either volume or weight limited, but not really both. Note: there are a few different container sizes, but 40' is by far the most common. Weight limits also very by location.
- jaclaz 9y agoThe cost hasn't been cited in the "invention", but concrete is something that weights roughly 2,200 Kg per cubic meter, and has a cost (of course it depends on where it is produced) of less than 100 US$ per cubic meter, the 25 Kg counterbalance costs between 1 and 2 dollars, and is probably just barely comparable to a mass produced injected plastic tank, but I doubt that there will be any actual savings by the manufacturer. And there is no real "visible" added cost of transport. A 70 kg washing machine is typically 0.60x0.60x0.90=0.324 cubic meters, let's say 0.7x0.7x1,00=0.49-0.50 including packaging, it has a a very low "density" of 70/500=0.14. On a truck with a platform of 2.40 m x 13.00 m (a normal large truck with a loading accepted of around 30,000 Kg ) you can usually put (in two levels) between 100 and 110 washers (2.40/0.7=3 13/0.7=18 2x3x18=108). So you have this big truck, designed to carry 30,000 Kg and you load it with 8,000 Kg instead. Do you think you will get a discount from the trucker? And do you think that you will get a further discount if the load is 5,000 instead? As well, do you think that you will get a discount from the delivery (and installing) guy if it weights 20 Kg less (but the guy needs to remove the top cover, fill the tank, re-assemble the cover)? From an environmental viewpoint there are undoubtedly savings but the manufacturer (or the customer) won't be able to appreciate them in practice.
- joezydeco 9y agoWell, it has, in other places. My kid had a basketball net playset that used a hollow base you would fill with water. https://www.littletikes.com/item/612329/totsports-easy-score-basketball-set/1.html https://www.littletikes.com/item/612329/totsports-easy-score... Now they recommend sand which probably would be less inclined to grow mold and bacteria in a warm enclosed environment. My bigger question is: why do U.K. front loaders need a large counter vibration mass? My 10 year-old LG direct drive unit has no weights at all.
- jaclaz 9y agoWell, concrete is solid and water is liquid. I know it sounds obvious, but have you ever seen in your life a plastic flask or tank or jerry can that after several years leaked? It is of course doable, but how durable will it be? Imagine the kind of vibrations and shocks a jerry can used as a counterbalancing device in a relatively hot environment needs to bear. A good, environment-friendly idea would be to make the concrete counterbalances a "standard" (in size and holes/bolting) and re-use them. Nowadays in most countries (excluded the developing ones) the market for washing machine is almost exclusively a replacement one. You get the new washing machine (without counterbalance) and you bolt on it the one from the old machine, and you save also the cost of the plastic water container.
- LoSboccacc 9y agomake it metal, fill with sand
- jaclaz 9y ago...with an added cost of some 10-15 US$ for a steel tank that being just over something generating hot, humid air all the time will rust in no time or 40-60 US$ in the case of stainless steel. Then everyone has 20 Kg of sand at home (if you have to transport the 20 Kg of sand all the theoretical transport savings are gone).
- LoSboccacc 9y agoright, didn't think of rust - but sand can be easily obtained, beside most people use installers around here, so they'd be the one with the sand.
- GilbertErik 9y ago...but most people, whether using an installer or not, don't have multiple faucets that can dispense sand. Nearly everyone _does_ have access to water though.
- andy_ppp 9y agoFor those on the lazy web like me; the answer is fill a hollow plastic counter weight with water when the machine is installed rather than lug great slabs of concrete round the world.
- rplst8 9y agoThat's like a huge "duh, why didn't they do that" sort of thing. Wow. Theoretically, they could probably make all of the free space in the washer part of a giant tupperware style container and allow filling of different compartments to precisely balance the machine.
- ynniv 9y agoAnd the answer is... cheap computing power. If the plastic balance isn't full or leaks out, the spin cycle becomes extremely dangerous. Traditionally we used a system that was not prone to this kind of failure, but now that the cycle is computer controlled and we have cheap accelerometers we can use a more complicated but lighter alternative safely.
- cm2187 9y agoWhy do you need a precise weight? Isn't it mass just there to keep the machine from vibrating, like the heavier the better? As opposed to some weight on a propeller that are carefully calibrated to offset any asymmetry.
- 9y ago
- blkhawk 9y agoNewer washing machines have less concrete in them that before - My guess would be that in the past the water tank would have been to large to actually fit the machine. I also wonder how the plastic will stand up to the vibrations. You might get leaks because the plastic will flex and eventually rupture from stress. The reason why newer machines have less counterweight is that the motors are electronically regulated these days. That means you can partly dampen vibrations with the motor instead of with weights.
- yoz-y 9y ago3.5 kg of plastic is quite a lot though, I suppose it is because the tank is very thick.
- chillingeffect 9y agoHell why not use rocks on a shelf? p.s. have you heard of new washing machine motors that re-magnetize the stator between cycles? One high-torque config for agitation, then a high-speed config for spinning!
- ratherbefuddled 9y agoI find innovations like this wonderfully elegant when they're so obvious in hindsight. It boggles the mind nobody thought of this before. There must be other problems with radically better obvious-in-hindsight solutions out there too.
- avip 9y agoWhat makes you think nobody thought of this before?
- ratherbefuddled 9y agoTo my knowledge nobody did it, and I can't see a reason why having had the idea it wouldn't be used.
- rasz 9y agoThere are patents for this from 1989.
- GuB-42 9y agoI think that many people thought of it. Water filled counterweights are used everywhere. That a washing machine uses water certainly helps making the connection. But ideas are easy, implementation is hard. How to deal with the lower density of water, its tendency to slosh around, how is the tank filled, how is it emptied, how to prevent leaks, staleness, what if it is improperly filled, the costs and benefits. These are all questions manufacturers have to answer. The University of Nottingham made a small step towards the solution by having a working prototype. But as hundreds of failed Kickstarter project show, there is a world between a prototype and mass production.
- diroussel 9y agoI wonder when active damping systems will come to washing machines. You'll need sensors to measure vibrations, a control unit and some small but fast actuator coupled to a small counter weight. The technology shouldn't be much different to the noise cancelling earphones I'm wearing right now. But with a larger actuator.
- ynniv 9y agoMy current LG washer spins the drum at startup to detect balance and load, so it probably accomplishes some active balancing by modulating the drive motor during the spin cycle. This one still has a regular concrete balance though.
- taneq 9y agoSame, but I figured it was doing something more like: int speed = 0, retries = 0; for (int time = 0; time < SPIN_LENGTH; time++) { speed += speed < MAX_SPEED ? 1 : 0; if (read_shake_sensor() > TOO_MUCH_SHAKING) { time = speed = 0; if (++retries > MAX_RETRIES) break; } set_spin_speed(speed); sleep(1); }
- ynniv 9y agoWhile it's possible that it is this simple, spinning the drum back and forth to detect load shows a significantly more advanced understanding of control theory.
- joezydeco 9y agoI have an LG and noticed that it takes a very measured approach to spin cycles, as if it's taking a bunch of measurements at certain speeds before going into the high speed final spin. It can also reverse the drum to try and loosen loads that have fixed together in one lump. That has to be a huge advantage of the direct drive system and most likely something that concrete-filled belt-driven UK banger can't do.
- 9y ago
- agumonkey 9y agogod dammit, yet another stupid idea I thought nobody would ever like. ps: same goes for almost every dead weight transport. Road blocks, you name it. Someone computes the wasted energy ? pps: what about vertical axis spinning models ? I remember people saying they were inneficient. Anyone can explain ? ppps: I remember a guy in africa coupling a dead bike to a vertical spinning container. sigh
- Gracana 9y agoHorizontal axis is better because it tumbles the clothes through a small puddle of water at the bottom. Vertical axis requires lots of energy to agitate, and a lot of water.
- agumonkey 9y agoYeah I just read about the need for swapping clothes in vertical axis, although people added fins to move them around. Interesting.
- creeble 9y agoNeed? Like, there are people going around complaining that their clothes never get clean enough unless they swap them around in the washer? I have found most washer "innovations" are simply ways for companies to sell new washers, rather than having people fix old ones.
- athenot 9y agoMy vertical axis washer uses probably as much as a horizontal one. The trick is in an improved impeller to properly agitate a full load in what's merely a puddle of water. Also the cycle starts with a pump spraying (recycled) water back into the basket so that all the clothes reach the same wetness therefore can have the same density and get impelled uniformly.
- dpark 9y agoI always felt like vertical washers had to be harder on clothes. Horizontal washers are just flopping clothes around so the worst wear is probably on buttons. Vertical washers are scraping and stretching the fabric itself when they agitate. Especially if there's not much water to lubricate, seems like it would be tough on the fabric.
- Yakkety1610 9y agowww.which.co.uk/reviews/washing-machines/
- taoufix 9y agoI never knew washing machines had concrete in them :(
- tim333 9y agoYeah, check out Secret Life Of Machines 104 The Washing Machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baFaEvBywGc&feature=youtu.be&t=7m30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baFaEvBywGc&feature=youtu.be... they show what happens if you take the block out. Also how comercial machines do without it by balancing the load.
- rsynnott 9y agoSome very high-end ones use iron counterweights.
- namdnay 9y agoOnly the cheaper ones use concrete I believe. High-end models use cast iron, because concrete will start to crack/crumble after 10 years
- lumberjack 9y agoI thought you were always supposed to take out the concrete block before moving the thing. It's usually very easy to do.
- jmkd 9y agoSomewhat tickled to say I thought of this about 10 years ago, told everyone who would listen, and many who wouldn't. As I was not remotely interested in developing it myself I was happy to tell anyone. Got an audience with a designer at Dyson, gave it to him straight in the clearest most open terms imaginable, to be met by nonplussed disinterest. Just kept it for cocktail parties since then.
- amelius 9y agoI've been telling this for years every time I helped people move. The thought of patenting it crossed my mind, but I always assumed this would be "too simple" an invention, that companies probably already had figured out, but couldn't use because of some patent troll or something like that. Also, as a student, I didn't have the money for a patent application.
- dingaling 9y ago> Also, as a student, I didn't have the money for a patent application. That's the big probem for individuals. Patenting as an individual is expensive and as a friend learned the big companies can just sit-tight until the renewal fees become too much to bear. He had designed a self-assembly glassfibre astronomical observatory on the Buckmeister principle, with a wide-opening orifice using petal segments, and toured the major manufacturers in the field. None wanted to license the patent. Shortly after he let the patent lapse due to cost, several of the manufacturers brought out their variants. That's just the way the game is played.
- Max_Mustermann 9y agoMaybe a space for crowdfunding? or a dreaded ICO...
- petra 9y ago>> None wanted to license the patent. Where did it fail? no interest at all? weak patent ? terms negotiation ?
- 9y ago
- resedit 9y ago>"We found it worked as good as a concrete counterweight, stopping the spinning drum from heavily vibrating the machine," Sorry to be off topic, but shouldn't it be "worked as well"? Not a native speaker, but it sounds strange. Very interesting idea, though as many have pointed out, I'd be worried of leakage in the long run. A plastic container should be cheap to replace, however.
- chrisseaton 9y agoI think this is a UK article, but I think people in the USA often say 'good' when they mean 'well'. Maybe that's crossing the Atlantic now.
- csydas 9y agoThis is likely correct - it's a common mistake in English on both sides of the Atlantic, and you are right that it should be "well". My clients from the UK use it about as frequently as my US clients.
- mturmon 9y agoYou are right, proper usage is "well" there. It's an adverb, describing the way that the machine worked. "Good" is for adjectives, describing people, places or things. Sometimes you will hear this mistake in speech (as opposed to written), and this was a quote. Even in speech, unless used for effect, that usage would (for better or worse) mark the speaker as less educated. But if delivered with a bit of a foreign accent, all is forgiven ;-).
- overcast 9y agoJust remember Superman does good, you're doing well.
- s-berwick 9y agoWas posted on BBC a few weeks back and in the comments sections this was posted. https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0326502A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0326502A1/en
- lathiat 9y agoHe has another one where it seems it pumps water through a second reservoir. Looks like that expired recently so possibly why we are seeing this? (Far from a patent expert) https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0707670B1/en?q=D06F37%2f265&assignee=Georges+Martinez https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0707670B1/en?q=D06F37%2f...
- chr4004 9y agoHaving a "dead weight" has it's advantages - passive, no bacteria, mold, flex, resistant to shock etc. Pretty sure billion dollar companies like Siemens have thought this through and came to the conclusion that concrete is best. The negative externality of a disappointed customer seems to be larger (medium term) than the damage being done by producing the concrete.
- rsl7 9y agothen fill it with concrete..
- joezydeco 9y agoManufacturers really don't care too much about shipping costs (and the secondary CO2 burden) once the machine leaves their loading dock. Their concern is to make the machine as cheaply as possible for the features involved and maximize the margin.
- dx034 9y agoCosts are probably not that high anyway. For most logistic companies, volume determines capacity for trucks, not weight. Transporting a washing machine amongst other deliveries will not cost much more than other deliveries of that size (except for the additional fuel which is probably low). Carrying it in place can be done within minutes, not much longer than other deliveries. That's probably also the reason why machines are cheap to buy online. If shipping was a constraint, buying at big stores would be cheaper. Therefore, concrete can save some CO2 but probably not much cost. The cost of replacing faulty water tanks could be higher than the saved cost.
- PatentTroll 9y agoThis. The problem is that the costs of transportation are externalized to a shipper, and the environmental costs the shipper incurs are externalized to ... future generations? And the cost of the eventual replacement is externalized to the consumer ten years from now. It may be wise for us as a society to find ways to fully account for all costs of products to use market forces to make better decisions for society as a whole, rather than enriching a segment at the expense of another.
- jakobegger 9y agoWater has a density of 1000kg/m3 whereas concrete has a density of 2300kg/m3. Your washing machine will end up a bit bigger if you want the same counterweight. Some washers even have cast iron counterweights (7000kg/m3).
- lathiat 9y agoBecause of better electronic regulation can probably get away with this easier now. Also front loaders seem to have taken over a lot of the market which maybe affects things?
- rtkwe 9y agoThe current concrete counterweights don't take up the full extra volume available in machines so switching to a less dense counterweight doesn't mean they'll have to increase the size of the machine overall.
- trias 9y agowhat about sand? comes close to concrete but is easily (re)fillable.
- s0rce 9y agoand never gets moldy
- Bjartr 9y agoMy top loader has damping springs at the bottom and a plastic "balance ring"[1] around the top of the basket that's filled with fluid to reduce vibrations. Certainly no concrete anywhere in it, that I could see when I took the cover/case off anyway. Though I've been having problems with it shaking too much during the spin cycle, so I wish it did have concrete. [1] http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-balance-ring-asm-wp3956205-ap6008969.html http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-balance-ring-asm...
- ars 9y agoOnly front loaders have it. Top loaders don't spin fast enough to need it.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoI was of the understanding top loaders don't require it because the axis of spin is oriented such that, so long as the load is sufficiently balanced, it doesn't matter how fast it spins. Front loaders have a harder time balancing the load due to the orientation of the drum, so require greater inertial mass to stabilise them.
- ars 9y agoNo, I don't believe that's true. An imbalanced top loader will "walk" across the room if it's not heavy enough to stay put. No, it's simply that top loaders just don't spin very fast. > Front loaders have a harder time balancing the load due to the orientation of the drum The opposite - it's easier for a front loader to balance the load, not harder (that's why they are able to spin faster). A top loader has no ability to move the clothing into balance. But a front loader can - it spins slowly so that the clothing moves around, and then when it detects balance, it speeds up and locks the clothing into position. A front loader is a better washing machine in every single way, except for one: it needs to be water tight, which means air tight, so it can grow mildew if the door is not left open when it's not in use.
- 9y ago
- italicbold 9y ago"The plastic counterweight (right) could save around 45,000 tonnes of CO2 each year in the UK..." How about we just make machines that last instead of having to be replaced all the time.
- rsynnott 9y agoBecause no-one wants to pay for that. Washing machines which last exist, but they're expensive. They use sturdier, more easily replaceable parts, higher quality motors and control systems, etc. And sometimes _iron_ counterweights (even more CO2 there). You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people.
- Mister_Snuggles 9y ago> You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people. The other side of the coin is that the Miele will possibly do a better job than the cheaper model. I used to buy $100 vacuum cleaners and just replace them when they break, which they usually did after a year or two. The last time one died on me I decided that I had had enough and bought a Miele. Not only will it last longer (the 10 year warranty guarantees that it will), it also does a much better job.
- rsynnott 9y agoOh, yep, it'll do a better job than the cheap stuff. Most people just aren't willing to spend this sort of money on an appliance, though.
- jjeaff 9y agoI like my Miele vacuum. But I bought it because it did a noticeably better job and was more quite than a cheapo. But I doubt the Miele dishwasher would do a better job since mine does fine. Clean is clean for a plate.
- 9y ago
- code4tee 9y agoThis is one of those things where I'd have to think the washing machine companies have certainly thought of this and there's a reason they don't do it that's being left out of the article. It does seem like a good idea, but curious why it's not done already.
- egeozcan 9y agoCan't we just fix the damn things to the walls or floor? Maybe sell a separate, universal "base"?
- lfowles 9y agoI'd rather my _entire_ house not rumble when my washing machine has a heavy load :)
- joezydeco 9y agoThey'll eventually tear themselves apart, especially in a damp corrosive environment. It's better to just find a solution to the vibration (which other machines have done).
- Turing_Machine 9y agoCommercial laundry equipment is generally bolted to a concrete pad full of rebar.
- creeble 9y agoIs this a British thing? I'm pretty sure my 22-year-old Kenmore washer doesn't have any concrete in it. I have it apart three or four times in 22 years for different maintenance (never costing more than $50 in parts) and it's not particularly heavy.
- ars 9y agoNo, not a British thing. But only front loaders need it, since old top loaders don't spin very fast.
- Salamat 9y agoSo it is an old idea in a new usage.Water filled road barriers have been there for ages."The Jersey barrier, also called New Jersey wall, was developed in the 1950s (introduced in current form in 1959), at the Stevens Institute of Technology,[1] New Jersey, United States, under the direction of the New Jersey State Highway Department to divide multiple lanes on a highway". Wikifelia.
- KGIII 9y agoInterestingly, they first used movable concrete barriers in the late 1940s, in California. The plastic ones came out in the late 60s. Some of them contain sand or concrete. Err... I modeled traffic. I spent as much time as I could being on-site for data collection. I've also spent way too much mental energy on learning about roads. This is because I am still largely a child, even though I'm old.
- rplst8 9y agoHow about we just reuse the concrete blocks? They don't wear out do they?
- KGIII 9y agoThat seems rather inefficient and as though you'd want a standard across many models. I suspect it's worse than just crushing it up for reuse.
- ouid 9y ago"Concrete is bad for the environment due to the amount of CO2 released in its production" While this might be true for very large scale pours, is it really true of washing machines? burning 1 kg of gasoline produces about 3 kg CO2. Producing 1 kg of cement produces < 1kg of CO2.
- louithethrid 9y agoOnly slightly related- but is there research into genetic modified wood growth? As in - directly from a cell culture in a tank?
- nextweek2 9y agoBad idea, you are shifting a problem at the transportation side to a repair nightmare. How is having a bucket of water on top of electronics being violently shaken on a daily basis a good design?
- londons_explore 9y agoI'm going to guess this will go nowhere. There is the human time to take the cover off and fill two massive water tanks, the cost of having plugs and caps for said tanks, the risk that they leak, the risk that they don't get filled and the machine vibrates to pieces, the fatigue risk (try designing a thin plastic tank to take >200 lbs of vibrational force), the risk of a new and unproven design, etc. All of that only saves a few cents of extra gas for shipping the machines. Probably not worth it. Probably the plastic tank cost is more expensive to manufacture than blocks of concrete anyway. Concrete is damn cheap.
- avar 9y agoWhy not force companies to standardize the size and shape of the concrete counterweight, and mandate that it must be easily removable and you can't sell them bundled with the machines themselves? Then you could simply remove it for transport, and it many cases reuse the one from your old machine, or buy a really cheap second-hand counterweight from your local hardware store.