21 ms·

SKYACTIV-X: first commercial gasoline engine to use compression ignition

174 points by interconnector 9y ago

ajross 9y ago
Gah, terribly confusing terminology. This is a Diesel engine. "Compression ignition" is what the Diesel cycle is all about. It's just carefully tuned such that it can run on gasoline instead of kerosene (i.e. "diesel fuel"). And mostly I don't get it. This is just a convenience factor. If you want a high-efficiency diesel right now you can buy one already. Low-volatility fuels are already more energy-dense (i.e. fewer losses carrying the stuff around in the tank) and require less energy to refine. This gives you the advantage of being able to pull into a gas station without diesel available, but otherwise doesn't seem to add much.
- dagw 9y ago
  Diesel seems to be very much on the way out, with several cities discussing diesel bans. If I was to buy a new car today I certainly wouldn't consider a diesel (as opposed to two or three years ago when diesel was the future)
- vvanders 9y ago
  Yes, however common diesel fuels tend to be higher in NOx and particulates. My understanding is that because gasoline is refined to a higher degree it burns a fair bit cleaner in similar environments(and also makes it a PITA to store for more than a few months). [edit] We've got a pair of tractors around the house here, '81 diesel(pre-emissions), and '47 gasser. I can tell you which one I prefer to run from an exhaust perspective, the diesel may have torque and is a dead-simple engine but you don't want to be downwind of it when cutting heavy brush.
  - toast0 9y ago
    NOx emissions from a diesel engine are from atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen, not from the fuel. I welcome further clarifications, but my understanding is that this engine will not produce NOx like a standard diesel because the fuel/air mix will be tightly controlled like in a gasoline engine, and temperature and pressure will be significantly less than a standard diesel. Additionally, it seems the timing of the fuel injection will be much earlier than a diesel, resulting in more complete air/fuel mixture; this is possible because gasoline has a higher ignition temperature, so fuel can be injected early and ignition won't happen until the compression stroke; diesel fuel would ignite during injection regardless of where in the cycle.
    - vvanders 9y ago
      According to wikipedia the fuel can be a large source of nitrogen for NOx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Fuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Fuel
    - ajross 9y ago
      I'm struggling with the same reasoning: NOx is the result of high combustion temperatures, which is a pure function of the compression ratio (and fuel mixture), which is the thing that defines the high efficiencies you can get with a diesel cycle. The argument in the linked wikipedia entry is that combustion temperatures are lower in this cycle because the better fuel/air mixing means it can burn much leaner and thus at a lower temperature. But a leaner mixture means lower power for a given displacement too, which means lower efficiency than a comparable traditional diesel (which are already hard-pressed to see gains like the 40% claimed against well-tuned gas engines). Honestly the whole thing sounds very snake oily to me. I don't deny that it's possible such a thing could be tuned to operate as well as a traditional engine, but... it sounds awfully fiddly. I'd want to see numbers from a production engine in a real car before placing any bets. Electric continues to look like a much better bet to my eyes.
      - tadfisher 9y ago
        I don't buy the wikipedia argument either, but I do believe the homogenous charge mixture will burn at a lower temperature for a given compression ratio than the equivalent stratified charge. Throwing f/a into the mix, the HCCI mode is apparently only active during low-power cruise, so the lean mixture is fine. The Mazda innovation is controlling the changeover from HCCI to SI when more power is demanded.
- pedrocr 9y ago
  This is much more interesting than that. It's a gasoline engine (fuel injected at intake and spark to ignite) that can operate in compression ignition in some of its range and thus get better mileage[1]. It should get efficiencies much similar to diesel but me much cleaner (less NOx). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression_ignition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression...
- silassales 9y ago
  Taken from the article linked above: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO0E7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO... > Its fuel economy potentially matches that of a diesel engine without high emissions of nitrogen oxides or sooty particulates.
- thescriptkiddie 9y ago
  It's not exactly the same as a diesel engine. Diesels use a stratified charge (SCCI), meaning fuel is injected at the end of the compression stroke and burns immediately, without having a chance to mix thoroughly with the air. This engine uses a homogeneous charge (HCCI), meaning fuel is injected at the beginning of the intake stroke but does not ignite until the end of the compression stroke, therefore having time to mix with the air. This subtle difference makes the engine much harder to control, but should yield lower NOx and particulate emissions as well as higher power output. Also, the engine is capable of running in HCCI mode under light-ish load. It still has spark plugs, and can run as a normal gasoline engine (HCSI) when high power is demanded.
IgorPartola 9y ago
So how exactly does this work? And why is it more effective and how does it allow you to run super lean while producing the same amount of power? Also, presumably running lean would mean lower emissions, but is that really true?
- philipkglass 9y ago
  Running lean, highly compressed, and highly efficient reduces expected production of carbon monoxide and residual hydrocarbons. But it significantly increases nitrogen oxide formation, as in diesel engines. So I wonder how the emissions control system deals with the extra NOx -- that has (see Dieselgate and continuing related fallout) proven quite a sticky problem for high efficiency diesel engines in passenger vehicles. The cheap "solutions" were mostly cheats and the actual solutions cost more.
rbanffy 9y ago
How much more R&D can the internal combustion engine pay for?
- _archon_ 9y ago
  How fancy are modern cars compared to the original cars?
stirkac 9y ago
Mazda is one of those companies just don't stop revolutionizing. First they got rotary to be actually usable. Now this.
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  Did they get the rotary to be usable? I thought even at its best, it was finicky and temperamental. I have never owned or driven one, just doing some idle reading online, so asking this as a serious question.
  - quake 9y ago
    More or less usable. They did have a tendency to blow apex seals after 80k miles, which was could end up as a full rebuild of the engine. As far as how finicky a rotary can be, the biggest thing to do is let them warm up before driving, and let them cool right down after you're done. They were never an engine to replace the standard fourbanger, but they weren't any more finicky than say a BMW or Audi at the time of the RX-8
    - IgorPartola 9y ago
      Heh. I mean an engine rebuild at 80k seems kind of crazy. I am both continually amazed at the ICE and at the same time can't wait for it to die out. It's such an archaic technology. Hell, a turbine engine would be so much more fun to have in a car!
      - ynniv 9y ago
        ... as long as it isn't directly connected to the wheels? The rotational inertia would make for a very uncomfortable drive.
        linksnapzz 9y ago
        Chrysler made several generations of turbine cars in the '60s. http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html It was not, in the end, a production car, but there was a lot of data gathered as to performance and reliability in real-world settings. Not too long ago, Jaguar had a concept CX-75, which was a hybrid mid-engined supercar where the piston engine was replaced with two Bladon Jets micro gas turbines. After 2008, they didn't want to commit to an expensive limited production vehicle, too bad. https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/18-october-2010/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/ https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/18-october-2010/jet-pow...
Danihan 9y ago
>Compression ignition and a supercharger fitted to improve fuel economy together deliver unprecedented engine response and increase torque 10-30 percent over the current SKYACTIV-G gasoline engine.*3 Wow. I already have a 2016 Mazda 3 that gets around 40MPG (even though it's not a hybrid) and it's already pretty peppy. Probably the best car I've owned, and I've owned several nice sports sedans. Getting 40MPG is too convenient when you make longer commutes, not to mention the thing cost ~20k at 0% APR. Blows any hybrid out of the water for total COO.
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  I think you are misreading that. The increase of 10-30 percent is in torque, not MPG.
  - Danihan 9y ago
    Gah, you're right, thanks. Edited.
  - ddeck 9y ago
    This is correct, but they're are also predicting an equivalent improvement in fuel consumption: "Compared to the current lineup of SkyActiv-G engines, the SkyActiv-X line should use between 20 and 30 percent less fuel." http://newatlas.com/mazda-skyactiv-x-compression-ignition/50803/ http://newatlas.com/mazda-skyactiv-x-compression-ignition/50...
    - flamedoge 9y ago
      more torque = less rpm @ same hp?
      - toxik 9y ago
        Torque is directly proportional to power, related by angular velocity. So τ Nm of torque at angular velocity ω rad/s will give you power P = τ·ω in watts. In fact this works for three-dimensional τ and ω if · is the scalar product. Oh and an RPM of N is equivalent to angular velocity ω = N·π/30.
ChuckMcM 9y ago
A reuters story on how it works: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO0E7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO... So this is 'gasoline' diesel. Or diesel without the NOx. Which, in theory, would give better fuel economy and possibly better torque. And it will ship in cars in the 2019 model year (so possibly as early as late next year). To me, it sounds like a "Don't pass"[1] bet on electric cars. Which they also are working with Toyota on electric cars so perhaps it is a fall back plan. It will be interesting to see how it fares. There are a lot of products that are built as the other side of an industry change bet. Sun created a workstation on the 68040 in case the SPARCStation didn't meet expectations as an example. [1] In the dice game Craps, the "Don't Pass" bet is against the current player 'winning.'
- bsdetector 9y ago
  Or a bet on hybrids. Hybrids enable new types of engines that for instance operate at constant rate or that are under-powered for acceleration from a stop or going uphill.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    I don't think hybrids have any future except in the heaviest of vehicles, where batteries won't make sense for another few decades. We're already seeing companies being interested in making battery-only buses, tractors, semis, and even airplanes. Not all models of those types of vehicles may work with batteries, but it's a sign of what the future could bring.
    - komali2 9y ago
      Total individual perspective here, but my dad took me on his worksite like 15 years ago to see the big super gorram awesome trucks (seriously those things are HUGE). When I asked about the engines, he said the trucks had massive diesel generators that powered motors, that in turn powered the wheels and hydraulics. So in a way, lots of construction equipment has kind of already been "hybrid."
maerF0x0 9y ago
I think this is a great step forward for ICE . Combining this technology into generators (and cars like chevy volt) will make an extremely convenient and fuel efficient vehicle.
elihu 9y ago
Maybe this is old news to people who pay attention to car news, but the most interesting thing to me is this line from the press release: > From 2019, start introducing electric vehicles and other electric drive technologies in regions that use a high ratio of clean energy for power generation or restrict certain vehicles to reduce air pollution I've been kind of disappointed that Mazda hasn't gotten into the electric car market yet; I'm glad to see they're coming around.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Mazda is kind of small, it would be like expecting an electric vehicle from Subaru. Ya, it will happen eventually, but the big guys are going to have the resources to go first (well, and startups built on the concept itself). Also, hydrogen was supposed to be the big clean fuel in Japan, but that fell by the wayside when the bigger Chinese market decided it would be electric.
- 33W 9y ago
  They have an interesting somewhat-hybrid called i-eloop that uses regenerative braking and a capacitor to power auxiliary systems: http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/ http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/
- btian 9y ago
  Mazda is a small company. They don't have the kind of R&D budget to make EVs.
- skgoa 9y ago
  Keep in mind that the electric section of the overall car marjket is just 1-1.5% right now. It's just not a significant market right now. Making an electric car is only good for building know-how. In the industry, the Chevy Bolt is expected to be the first electric car to end up being profitable. Next year's Audi Q6 e-tron quattro (what a name...) is expected to be the second. They are the first specimen of a new generate of electric cars that are for-profit mass production products from the ground up. By 2025 virtually every car manufacturer will be competing seriously in the electric market. This generational change is happening because as batteries and fuel cells are getting cheaper rapidly. We are coming up on the cross-over point where an electric car can be made profitably right now. But this also means that there was no point for the likes of Mazda to even work on electric cars before now.
pedrocr 9y ago
Technologies are always at their best when they're already being obsoleted. Just as electric cars become practical ICEs are getting great and so are the transmissions, making for great modern powertrains. There were rumors last year in F1 that one of the manufacturers was doing HCCI for it's engine (the same that Mazda has done here). I don't think any actually did but Ferrari did introduce a jet ignition system[1] that allows them to run much leaner. I wonder if anyone is thinking of adapting that to normal road cars. [1] http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/ferraris-formula-1-jet-ignition http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/ferraris-formul...
devy 9y ago
SKYACTIV-X is the world's first commercial gasoline engine to use compression ignition, in which the fuel-air mixture ignites spontaneously when compressed by the piston. Just pure curiosity, I wonder if SKYACTIV-X engine would also also consume diesel or gasoline/diesel mixtures?
- aidenn0 9y ago
  Almost certainly not, as diesel and gasoline have very different self-ignition properties.
  - ticklemyelmo 9y ago
    I wonder whether this engine will specifically require you to fill up with NON-premium gas.
    - tcdent 9y ago
      To elaborate, higher octane fuel exists solely to prevent self-detonation in higher compression engines by slowing the fuel's burn rate.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      I suspect that when operation in compression-detonation mode, it will inject the fuel late enough into the compression stroke that the difference between 87 and 97 octane fuel won't be that big of a deal. If it does make a difference then I would expect they would design for the higher octane rating gas to prevent user-error.
    - _archon_ 9y ago
      I anticipate the engine's control computer will be able to adapt in any case. It's like the Mercedes driver who puts in 87... it'll work, and the gas is cheaper, but the tradeoff is the engine runs in "poor fuel" mode and is less efficient, eliminating any savings.
lini 9y ago
Mercedes Benz introduced something very similar to this ten years ago[1]. The engine was using HCCI at low RPM and conventional spark-plug ignition at higher RPM. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto
- Neil44 9y ago
  That was purely experimental though - Mazda's is going on sale to the public which indicates that this is a much more evolved product. Whilst most other manufacturers have persued downsizing and turbos to get efficciency on paper (at the expense of real world emmissions) Mazda have gone another road with their SkyActiv technology and it seems to be paying off for them.
rsync 9y ago
Can we please get somebody to create: blahblah-notelectric-blahblah.blogspot.com ? Then you can just collect all of these late stage ICE optimization press releases in one place. And we can ignore them.
- linksnapzz 9y ago
  I'd like a similar repository, for all the predictions made by electric-car proponents about when all ICE units will be phased out, and by what date. Especially when predictions are made regarding the viability of this or that gascar company who is seen as being insufficiently hitched to the electric bandwagon, as though powertrain technology was the alpha-and-omega of carmaking.
userbinator 9y ago
I consider the headline slightly misleading, since compression ignition engines that run on a variety of fuels, including gasoline, were relatively popular around the turn of the century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-bulb_engine#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-bulb_engine#Advantages Another big attraction with the hot-bulb engine was its ability to run on a wide range of fuels. Even poorly combustible fuels could be used, since a combination of vaporiser- and compression ignition meant that such fuels could be made to burn. The usual fuel was fuel oil, similar to modern-day diesel fuel, but natural gas, kerosene, crude oil, vegetable oil or creosote could also be used. Also known as "semidiesels".
grondilu 9y ago
A nice YouTube video about what this is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVWZFdb_AGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVWZFdb_AGc

Gah, terribly confusing terminology. This is a Diesel engine. "Compression ignition" is what the Diesel cycle is all about. It's just carefully tuned such that it can run on gasoline instead of kerosene (i.e. "diesel fuel"). And mostly I don't get it. This is just a convenience factor. If you want a high-efficiency diesel right now you can buy one already. Low-volatility fuels are already more energy-dense (i.e. fewer losses carrying the stuff around in the tank) and require less energy to refine. This gives you the advantage of being able to pull into a gas station without diesel available, but otherwise doesn't seem to add much.

dagw 9y ago
Diesel seems to be very much on the way out, with several cities discussing diesel bans. If I was to buy a new car today I certainly wouldn't consider a diesel (as opposed to two or three years ago when diesel was the future)
vvanders 9y ago
Yes, however common diesel fuels tend to be higher in NOx and particulates. My understanding is that because gasoline is refined to a higher degree it burns a fair bit cleaner in similar environments(and also makes it a PITA to store for more than a few months). [edit] We've got a pair of tractors around the house here, '81 diesel(pre-emissions), and '47 gasser. I can tell you which one I prefer to run from an exhaust perspective, the diesel may have torque and is a dead-simple engine but you don't want to be downwind of it when cutting heavy brush.
- toast0 9y ago
  NOx emissions from a diesel engine are from atmospheric nitrogen and oxygen, not from the fuel. I welcome further clarifications, but my understanding is that this engine will not produce NOx like a standard diesel because the fuel/air mix will be tightly controlled like in a gasoline engine, and temperature and pressure will be significantly less than a standard diesel. Additionally, it seems the timing of the fuel injection will be much earlier than a diesel, resulting in more complete air/fuel mixture; this is possible because gasoline has a higher ignition temperature, so fuel can be injected early and ignition won't happen until the compression stroke; diesel fuel would ignite during injection regardless of where in the cycle.
  - vvanders 9y ago
    According to wikipedia the fuel can be a large source of nitrogen for NOx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Fuel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx#Fuel
  - ajross 9y ago
    I'm struggling with the same reasoning: NOx is the result of high combustion temperatures, which is a pure function of the compression ratio (and fuel mixture), which is the thing that defines the high efficiencies you can get with a diesel cycle. The argument in the linked wikipedia entry is that combustion temperatures are lower in this cycle because the better fuel/air mixing means it can burn much leaner and thus at a lower temperature. But a leaner mixture means lower power for a given displacement too, which means lower efficiency than a comparable traditional diesel (which are already hard-pressed to see gains like the 40% claimed against well-tuned gas engines). Honestly the whole thing sounds very snake oily to me. I don't deny that it's possible such a thing could be tuned to operate as well as a traditional engine, but... it sounds awfully fiddly. I'd want to see numbers from a production engine in a real car before placing any bets. Electric continues to look like a much better bet to my eyes.
    - tadfisher 9y ago
      I don't buy the wikipedia argument either, but I do believe the homogenous charge mixture will burn at a lower temperature for a given compression ratio than the equivalent stratified charge. Throwing f/a into the mix, the HCCI mode is apparently only active during low-power cruise, so the lean mixture is fine. The Mazda innovation is controlling the changeover from HCCI to SI when more power is demanded.
pedrocr 9y ago
This is much more interesting than that. It's a gasoline engine (fuel injected at intake and spark to ignite) that can operate in compression ignition in some of its range and thus get better mileage[1]. It should get efficiencies much similar to diesel but me much cleaner (less NOx). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression_ignition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homogeneous_charge_compression...
silassales 9y ago
Taken from the article linked above: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO0E7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO... > Its fuel economy potentially matches that of a diesel engine without high emissions of nitrogen oxides or sooty particulates.
thescriptkiddie 9y ago
It's not exactly the same as a diesel engine. Diesels use a stratified charge (SCCI), meaning fuel is injected at the end of the compression stroke and burns immediately, without having a chance to mix thoroughly with the air. This engine uses a homogeneous charge (HCCI), meaning fuel is injected at the beginning of the intake stroke but does not ignite until the end of the compression stroke, therefore having time to mix with the air. This subtle difference makes the engine much harder to control, but should yield lower NOx and particulate emissions as well as higher power output. Also, the engine is capable of running in HCCI mode under light-ish load. It still has spark plugs, and can run as a normal gasoline engine (HCSI) when high power is demanded.

IgorPartola 9y ago

So how exactly does this work? And why is it more effective and how does it allow you to run super lean while producing the same amount of power? Also, presumably running lean would mean lower emissions, but is that really true?

philipkglass 9y ago
Running lean, highly compressed, and highly efficient reduces expected production of carbon monoxide and residual hydrocarbons. But it significantly increases nitrogen oxide formation, as in diesel engines. So I wonder how the emissions control system deals with the extra NOx -- that has (see Dieselgate and continuing related fallout) proven quite a sticky problem for high efficiency diesel engines in passenger vehicles. The cheap "solutions" were mostly cheats and the actual solutions cost more.

rbanffy 9y ago

How much more R&D can the internal combustion engine pay for?

_archon_ 9y ago
How fancy are modern cars compared to the original cars?

stirkac 9y ago

Mazda is one of those companies just don't stop revolutionizing. First they got rotary to be actually usable. Now this.

IgorPartola 9y ago
Did they get the rotary to be usable? I thought even at its best, it was finicky and temperamental. I have never owned or driven one, just doing some idle reading online, so asking this as a serious question.
- quake 9y ago
  More or less usable. They did have a tendency to blow apex seals after 80k miles, which was could end up as a full rebuild of the engine. As far as how finicky a rotary can be, the biggest thing to do is let them warm up before driving, and let them cool right down after you're done. They were never an engine to replace the standard fourbanger, but they weren't any more finicky than say a BMW or Audi at the time of the RX-8
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    Heh. I mean an engine rebuild at 80k seems kind of crazy. I am both continually amazed at the ICE and at the same time can't wait for it to die out. It's such an archaic technology. Hell, a turbine engine would be so much more fun to have in a car!
    - ynniv 9y ago
      ... as long as it isn't directly connected to the wheels? The rotational inertia would make for a very uncomfortable drive.
      - linksnapzz 9y ago
        Chrysler made several generations of turbine cars in the '60s. http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html http://www.allpar.com/mopar/turbine.html It was not, in the end, a production car, but there was a lot of data gathered as to performance and reliability in real-world settings. Not too long ago, Jaguar had a concept CX-75, which was a hybrid mid-engined supercar where the piston engine was replaced with two Bladon Jets micro gas turbines. After 2008, they didn't want to commit to an expensive limited production vehicle, too bad. https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/18-october-2010/jet-power-bladons-microjets-enable-jaguar-turbine-hybrid/ https://www.theengineer.co.uk/issues/18-october-2010/jet-pow...

Danihan 9y ago

>Compression ignition and a supercharger fitted to improve fuel economy together deliver unprecedented engine response and increase torque 10-30 percent over the current SKYACTIV-G gasoline engine.*3 Wow. I already have a 2016 Mazda 3 that gets around 40MPG (even though it's not a hybrid) and it's already pretty peppy. Probably the best car I've owned, and I've owned several nice sports sedans. Getting 40MPG is too convenient when you make longer commutes, not to mention the thing cost ~20k at 0% APR. Blows any hybrid out of the water for total COO.

IgorPartola 9y ago
I think you are misreading that. The increase of 10-30 percent is in torque, not MPG.
- Danihan 9y ago
  Gah, you're right, thanks. Edited.
- ddeck 9y ago
  This is correct, but they're are also predicting an equivalent improvement in fuel consumption: "Compared to the current lineup of SkyActiv-G engines, the SkyActiv-X line should use between 20 and 30 percent less fuel." http://newatlas.com/mazda-skyactiv-x-compression-ignition/50803/ http://newatlas.com/mazda-skyactiv-x-compression-ignition/50...
  - flamedoge 9y ago
    more torque = less rpm @ same hp?
    - toxik 9y ago
      Torque is directly proportional to power, related by angular velocity. So τ Nm of torque at angular velocity ω rad/s will give you power P = τ·ω in watts. In fact this works for three-dimensional τ and ω if · is the scalar product. Oh and an RPM of N is equivalent to angular velocity ω = N·π/30.

ChuckMcM 9y ago

A reuters story on how it works: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO0E7 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mazda-strategy-idUSKBN1AO... So this is 'gasoline' diesel. Or diesel without the NOx. Which, in theory, would give better fuel economy and possibly better torque. And it will ship in cars in the 2019 model year (so possibly as early as late next year). To me, it sounds like a "Don't pass"[1] bet on electric cars. Which they also are working with Toyota on electric cars so perhaps it is a fall back plan. It will be interesting to see how it fares. There are a lot of products that are built as the other side of an industry change bet. Sun created a workstation on the 68040 in case the SPARCStation didn't meet expectations as an example. [1] In the dice game Craps, the "Don't Pass" bet is against the current player 'winning.'

bsdetector 9y ago
Or a bet on hybrids. Hybrids enable new types of engines that for instance operate at constant rate or that are under-powered for acceleration from a stop or going uphill.
- mtgx 9y ago
  I don't think hybrids have any future except in the heaviest of vehicles, where batteries won't make sense for another few decades. We're already seeing companies being interested in making battery-only buses, tractors, semis, and even airplanes. Not all models of those types of vehicles may work with batteries, but it's a sign of what the future could bring.
  - komali2 9y ago
    Total individual perspective here, but my dad took me on his worksite like 15 years ago to see the big super gorram awesome trucks (seriously those things are HUGE). When I asked about the engines, he said the trucks had massive diesel generators that powered motors, that in turn powered the wheels and hydraulics. So in a way, lots of construction equipment has kind of already been "hybrid."

maerF0x0 9y ago

I think this is a great step forward for ICE . Combining this technology into generators (and cars like chevy volt) will make an extremely convenient and fuel efficient vehicle.

elihu 9y ago

Maybe this is old news to people who pay attention to car news, but the most interesting thing to me is this line from the press release: > From 2019, start introducing electric vehicles and other electric drive technologies in regions that use a high ratio of clean energy for power generation or restrict certain vehicles to reduce air pollution I've been kind of disappointed that Mazda hasn't gotten into the electric car market yet; I'm glad to see they're coming around.

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Mazda is kind of small, it would be like expecting an electric vehicle from Subaru. Ya, it will happen eventually, but the big guys are going to have the resources to go first (well, and startups built on the concept itself). Also, hydrogen was supposed to be the big clean fuel in Japan, but that fell by the wayside when the bigger Chinese market decided it would be electric.
33W 9y ago
They have an interesting somewhat-hybrid called i-eloop that uses regenerative braking and a capacitor to power auxiliary systems: http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/ http://www.mazda.com/en/innovation/technology/env/i-eloop/
btian 9y ago
Mazda is a small company. They don't have the kind of R&D budget to make EVs.
skgoa 9y ago
Keep in mind that the electric section of the overall car marjket is just 1-1.5% right now. It's just not a significant market right now. Making an electric car is only good for building know-how. In the industry, the Chevy Bolt is expected to be the first electric car to end up being profitable. Next year's Audi Q6 e-tron quattro (what a name...) is expected to be the second. They are the first specimen of a new generate of electric cars that are for-profit mass production products from the ground up. By 2025 virtually every car manufacturer will be competing seriously in the electric market. This generational change is happening because as batteries and fuel cells are getting cheaper rapidly. We are coming up on the cross-over point where an electric car can be made profitably right now. But this also means that there was no point for the likes of Mazda to even work on electric cars before now.

pedrocr 9y ago

Technologies are always at their best when they're already being obsoleted. Just as electric cars become practical ICEs are getting great and so are the transmissions, making for great modern powertrains. There were rumors last year in F1 that one of the manufacturers was doing HCCI for it's engine (the same that Mazda has done here). I don't think any actually did but Ferrari did introduce a jet ignition system[1] that allows them to run much leaner. I wonder if anyone is thinking of adapting that to normal road cars. [1] http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/ferraris-formula-1-jet-ignition http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/ferraris-formul...

devy 9y ago

SKYACTIV-X is the world's first commercial gasoline engine to use compression ignition, in which the fuel-air mixture ignites spontaneously when compressed by the piston. Just pure curiosity, I wonder if SKYACTIV-X engine would also also consume diesel or gasoline/diesel mixtures?

aidenn0 9y ago
Almost certainly not, as diesel and gasoline have very different self-ignition properties.
- ticklemyelmo 9y ago
  I wonder whether this engine will specifically require you to fill up with NON-premium gas.
  - tcdent 9y ago
    To elaborate, higher octane fuel exists solely to prevent self-detonation in higher compression engines by slowing the fuel's burn rate.
  - aidenn0 9y ago
    I suspect that when operation in compression-detonation mode, it will inject the fuel late enough into the compression stroke that the difference between 87 and 97 octane fuel won't be that big of a deal. If it does make a difference then I would expect they would design for the higher octane rating gas to prevent user-error.
  - _archon_ 9y ago
    I anticipate the engine's control computer will be able to adapt in any case. It's like the Mercedes driver who puts in 87... it'll work, and the gas is cheaper, but the tradeoff is the engine runs in "poor fuel" mode and is less efficient, eliminating any savings.

lini 9y ago

Mercedes Benz introduced something very similar to this ten years ago[1]. The engine was using HCCI at low RPM and conventional spark-plug ignition at higher RPM. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto

Neil44 9y ago
That was purely experimental though - Mazda's is going on sale to the public which indicates that this is a much more evolved product. Whilst most other manufacturers have persued downsizing and turbos to get efficciency on paper (at the expense of real world emmissions) Mazda have gone another road with their SkyActiv technology and it seems to be paying off for them.

rsync 9y ago

Can we please get somebody to create: blahblah-notelectric-blahblah.blogspot.com ? Then you can just collect all of these late stage ICE optimization press releases in one place. And we can ignore them.

linksnapzz 9y ago
I'd like a similar repository, for all the predictions made by electric-car proponents about when all ICE units will be phased out, and by what date. Especially when predictions are made regarding the viability of this or that gascar company who is seen as being insufficiently hitched to the electric bandwagon, as though powertrain technology was the alpha-and-omega of carmaking.

userbinator 9y ago

I consider the headline slightly misleading, since compression ignition engines that run on a variety of fuels, including gasoline, were relatively popular around the turn of the century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-bulb_engine#Advantages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-bulb_engine#Advantages Another big attraction with the hot-bulb engine was its ability to run on a wide range of fuels. Even poorly combustible fuels could be used, since a combination of vaporiser- and compression ignition meant that such fuels could be made to burn. The usual fuel was fuel oil, similar to modern-day diesel fuel, but natural gas, kerosene, crude oil, vegetable oil or creosote could also be used. Also known as "semidiesels".

grondilu 9y ago

A nice YouTube video about what this is about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVWZFdb_AGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVWZFdb_AGc