15 ms·

Japan’s labor market is tight, and higher wages may be needed to retain workers

120 points by SirLJ 9y ago

patio11 9y ago
Partly this is a recognition that Japan Inc. has historically awarded a blended compensation package which includes salary, benefits similar to most first-world countries, and a host of non-pecuniary terms which are not broadly enjoyed across all W-2 employees in the US. ("Expectation of lifetime employment" is a biggie; there are substantially more subtle terms, too, like "We're going to take care of you, and we sincerely mean that, and you trust us to sincerely mean that. This will manifest itself in behaviors which American companies would describe as quixotic to irrational to outright disturbing[+].") The non-pecuniary terms have been weakening in recent years but salaries have not been increasing at anything approaching parity. The non-pecuniary terms are not small relative to the total notional compensation package. One reason that Japanese companies are having difficulty hiring folks is that their candidates have marked-to-market the non-pecuniary terms. There is a totally defensible reason to value Toyota's standard offer as of 1975 at being worth an integer multiple of the salary part of the package. It is very, very difficult to make the case that a traditionally managed Japanese company's non-pecuniary terms are presently worth $50~$100k per year given that one will be taking advantage of them in 2017 to 2062 as opposed to 1975 to 2020. [+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride.
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- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  > my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. Yikes.
  - cgarrigue 9y ago
    The image you have is probably close to how in some societies 2 families decide their children are betrothed to each other. The reality is closer to match making: some colleagues might introduce you to somebody who could be a match. Or maybe they will invite you to what is called a goukon, a group date where one of the male participants invite a few colleagues or friends of his who are single while his girlfriend invite the same number of female colleagues or friends of hers who are single.
    - mikekchar 9y ago
      Though to be fair, arranged marriages are pretty common in Japan. Several of my friends have arranged marriages and are as happy as any other couple I know. I suppose you can think of it like online dating, where there is also an expectation that both parties are looking to get married. It would not surprise me at all that a company would pay the fees for a match maker if being single was causing a valued employee emotional distress. Especially foreign workers don't have family to take care of this kind of thing (sometimes parents will intervene and contact a match maker if they feel that their child is taking too long to get married). I've never been a full time worker in Japan, except in my own consulting company (obviously -- otherwise I would still be there ;-) ). But with a 1 year renewable contract (the normal way to work if you are not a full time employee), I was surprised at the extent to which the company takes care of you. It's nice if you are like me where you want to concentrate on work, but I've known people who get frustrated by what they see as an intrusion on their personal affairs. When I was working at the high school where I taught English, several times I had conversations with the vice principal who felt that me being single past the age of 40 was a problem. He even sent me to talk to the nurse so that she could explain how Japanese relationships work and impress upon me the importance of taking things seriously. And... well... I listened. And they were right. I got married to a Japanese woman who I was dating (not the nurse ;-) ). Not only has it made my life dramatically happier, but it's helped my job incredibly (even though I'm consulting IT related stuff instead of teaching English ;-) ). But it's kind of beyond weird have that kind of intervention at work...
      - 9y ago
- dcw303 9y ago
  Wow. Choosing your wife for you? Who and where was this company?! My experience with a traditionally Japanese run megacorp/zaibatsu in the heart of Tokyo is much more like a traditional western company. The minutia of HR is very Japanese and hard to get your head around, but the broad strokes of salary/bonus/non monetary benefits (I had to look up what pecuniary means) is basically the same.
  - ramchip 9y ago
    I don’t think “choosing” is the right word, it’s more like providing the opportunity to meet someone with drinking events, goukon etc. At least if his company is like the ones I’ve seen.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      The thread is definitely making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its providing networking opportunities, not selecting an actual person to be married off.
      - srtjstjsj 9y ago
        And it's an invitation to a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit in a USA corporation.
        toomuchtodo 9y ago
        The anecdote in question occurs in Japan.
    - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
      And added social pressure if one doesn't eventually move forward (this would be applied to anyone not marrying). Granted, you can somewhat see this in the US but on a much less official level. I've personally noticed it as I have aged but haven't looked into marrying or having children. Employees who have been around even longer than I have mentioned that I'll be making it harder to move upward, though no one will every officially put that on paper.
- mc32 9y ago
  Context is a bit important. My understanding (erroneous perh) About 30% of the workforce works at the larger companies -The Mitsubishis, Toyotas, etc. Those are the ones who used to typically hire before graduation and offered the "lifetime employment". Most of the workforce work for SMBs (<300 emps) --not the prototypical salaryman employer. Not all salarymen are averse to job hopping --though at low annual percentages, still the typical worker didn't work their whole life at one co. AFAIUI.
- sho 9y ago
  > my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride Are you sure you understood him correctly? That would be highly irregular, to say the least. More likely it was an offer to pay for a matching agency. Arranged marriages between specific people are pretty rare these days, and unheard of outside of family. Unless your boss literally adopted you, he would never take on that responsibility!
  - patio11 9y ago
    I doubt he would phrase it the same way I did, but I am absolutely not materially misremembering the conversation in which he said, and this is a verbatim quote translated from Japanese, "[24 year old coworker], this is Patrick. He just joined, graduated from a good school in America, and has a bright future with the company. Have you ever considered an international marriage?"
    - sho 9y ago
      Oh I'm not doubting you. But that's slightly different. Putting in a good word for you and making introductions to eligible young co-workers isn't quite the same as "here's your bride!", which is what it sounded like. I can absolutely imagine a 50s-ish japanese boss saying exactly the contents of your quote.
      - srtjstjsj 9y ago
        "sourcing" in this context means "identifying and referring candidates" not making an official commitment.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Exactly. If you hire a recruiter to source employees for you, they aren't going to come back and say "Here's your employee. Hope things work out for you." they are going to say "Here's someone who seems like a good fit. Do you want to interview them?".
- raleighm 9y ago
  >> sourcing the bride To be clear, this is not at all normal in Japan either (at least not in Tokyo or Osaka or anywhere other than very small companies with septuagenarian managers). No one prices matchmaking services into compensation considerations. Agree generally with the rest.
  - jsemrau 9y ago
    "Sourcing" might be a bit string, but there are company organised outings for match making
- akg_67 9y ago
  I actually know several instances of how company expects employees to sacrifice everything for the wellbeing of company and how company takes care of employees for life. One example, during 2008 crisis, the company my friend was working for 20+ years already, was in trouble and didn't pay employees for almost a year. My friend continued to work for the company despite it being bankrupt and him not getting paid for so long. Once company turnaround completed and came out of bankruptcy, owners not only made unpaid employees whole but has done much more for the employees that stuck around during bad times. The loyalty runs both ways.
  - Sholmesy 9y ago
    Nice anecdote, and I'm glad your friend was made whole (and then some), but this is crazy. I wonder how many times the same scenario has played out, and the company continued to spiral into bankruptcy. Separating emotion from $$$ is important for this exact reason. He owes the company nothing. Maybe I'm being overly cynical though...
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  - new299 9y ago
    I find all these anecdotes interesting, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from them. I've worked in Japan, and seen the inside of a few Japanese companies. I've seen some weird stuff. I've worked in other countries too and I saw some pretty weird stuff in those companies too. Thing is, I think there's a tendency too attribute weird things that happen in Japan to "Japanese culture" where-as sometimes it's really just a weird thing that happened... I think that's less of a case perhaps in other countries, where you have a better understanding of the baseline culture. I'd love to see more studies/data on what the average experience is like.
  - dugditches 9y ago
    I knew people with 25+ years just gone after 2008 dip. Most people can't afford to be 'loyal'(especially for a year~) and have bills to pay/children to feed. I've been to several factories/shops, and that 'loyalty' is quickly eroding. As worker wages stagnate while Management's increase. Management being under the squeeze of following Gov't Regulations and Outsourcing. So both sides are under this toxic stress.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  >[+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. This was the example I was thinking of when reading the first part of your message. I'm glad you said it because I feared it would've been seen as an exaggeration if I added it as an example I've heard of. So to anyone who is reading about this and doesn't trust a single anonymous source, let this second anonymous source add on that I've read about the same behavior, and even more disturbing behavior happening to unmarried female employees (where do you think they source the brides from?). That said, I've heard about these cases at a few companies. I do not have sufficient evidence to generalize beyond that, only to point out that it does happen (and is tolerated by the legal system, no chance of that in the US), not the rate at which it happens nor if it is a fair generalization of Japanese companies in general.
  - nihonde 9y ago
    Not to trivialize real gender prejudice, but there is no shortage of Japanese women who are in a dire search for a convenient marriage to a busy man who can give her children, financial support, and otherwise leave her alone. Even among my friends, whom I consider to be highly intelligent and evolved people, this is a perfectly normal aspiration.
    - magic_beans 9y ago
      Is this a cultural thing? Do women in Japan not aspire to fall in love?
      - Micrococonut 9y ago
        It is my understanding that "love" (the Western standard of Romantic love) isn't as important as building a stable relationship piece by piece in non-Western cultures.
        fatjokes 9y ago
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> At the same time, baby boomers are approaching retirement It wouldn't have occurred to me that Japan had a baby boom. I suppose soldiers returning home in despair or in triumph are all looking for comfort and stability.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
  The last century of Japanese history looks a lot like that of the Western developed nations. (Probably because Japan made itself into a Western-style empire, then got involved in WW2 big time with the Western powers, then got a Western-style American occupation, so…)
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    I guess I'd always assumed that the Baby Boom was the result of a victorious end to war, but the other makes sense too. Was there a baby boom after WWI, or the American Civil War, or other wars that siphoned off a major part of a country's young men?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
      Quick googling leads to this StackExchange question regarding WWI. Apparently it didn't see a boom (at least, not in the US?): https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/1026/did-ww1-produce-a-baby-boom-like-demographic-effect-in-usa-or-elsewhere https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/1026/did-ww1-pro...
      - protomyth 9y ago
        It was a lot easier to move around the country and commute ranges were greater after WWII due to the enhanced infrastructure and greater number of personal automobiles. This and the improved economy after the war had some big effects on society.
      - bsder 9y ago
        It's funny that nobody mentions the Spanish Flu. Unusually, that took out a lot of child-bearing age individuals around the world. And the flu, in particular, ravaged pregnant women.
raleighm 9y ago
True that Japanese companies should pay more. For what it's worth, it doesn't appear to have started. Nikkei ran a story today noting that summer bonuses (which are a thing) are down for the time in five years.
dcw303 9y ago
The problem is Japan has been in a deflationary environment for so long that they've forgotten how to bump up a price and turned into a nation of misers. I've witnessed first hand the collective hysteria when an ice cream company raised their prices by 10 yen[0] and also had to put up with coworkers banging on in excitement whenever 7-11 has an Onigiri sale dropping from 110 to 100 yen. Not to mention the queues stretching around the block when Yoshinoya cuts a buck and a half off their beef bowls. My anecdotal evidence, based on looking in shop windows, is there's plenty of part time (arubaito) jobs on offer; the problem is young people are too smart to take them up on their pitiful 700 yen per hour offers, which in Tokyo barely cover your transport and lunch costs. And yet the businesses will continue to weep and wail and gnash their teeth because they can't find anyone. It's not rocket science. [0] https://qz.com/656080/a-japanese-ice-cream-maker-deeply-apologizes-for-raising-prices-by-9-cents/ https://qz.com/656080/a-japanese-ice-cream-maker-deeply-apol...
- delhanty 9y ago
  >coworkers banging on in excitement whenever 7-11 has an Onigiri sale dropping from 110 to 100 yen Usually it's an up to 150 yen onigiri for 100 yen, so of course they're going to get excited. Edit: It looks like it is/was an up to 160 yen onigiri for 100 yen! That's a 37.5% discount! [1] [1] http://seven-eleven-mania-blog.jp/gohankei/5617/ http://seven-eleven-mania-blog.jp/gohankei/5617/
  - timr 9y ago
    It's still pretty silly, considering the absolute value of the savings. My personal favorite along these lines is the way that a single building might have 2-3 floors of the same kind of restaurant (say, yakitori), but the one place that is 5 yen cheaper per item will have a line out the door, while the others are half-empty.
    - FussyZeus 9y ago
      Is this a cultural thing? I've never been to Japan so I'm kind of flying blind here but I'd assign that 5 yen as a convenience cost and happily pay that price to avoid the long line. I have a hard time thinking the Japanese people place no value on their time whatsoever...
adventured 9y ago
Japan's primary problem on income is that the economic ground they've lost in the last 20 years is vast. In the late 1980s, their GDP per capita was beyond that of the US. Now it needs to climb 50% to catch up. The last 20 years has taken them back to #16 among major economies in terms of GDP per capita. That gives you an idea of how difficult it's going to be for Japan to bring their incomes back in line with high per capita output economies like the US (or Australia, Denmark, Sweden, etc). They need very substantial, sustained economic growth for a decade or more to start regaining lost ground. Their debt problems will continue to put pressure on the Yen, the debasement of which is a big culprit in the sizable drop in their standard of living over the last decade. While their interest costs are eating up such a large portion of their budget, their ability to properly invest into growth is heavily restricted. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've yet to see a plan for how they're going to deal with that. To make matters worse, their savings rate has dropped to low single digits, as their standard of living has dropped they've been forced to reduce savings to try to maintain (which has further pressured the government's ability to properly fund itself, as they can no longer count on tapping into large new pools of savings via debt issuance, leading to abusing the Yen as a last resort).
- nihonde 9y ago
  Lots of childless old-timers are sitting on hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in liquid assets that presumably will revert to the state. Household savings in the 60+ demographic are exemplary. Of course, that's part of the reason the economy is stagnant.
  - ShabbosGoy 9y ago
    Keynes vs. Hayek in a nutshell.
  - rpazyaquian 9y ago
    Sounds like where the US is headed.
ekianjo 9y ago
Running out of people? Most large corporations in Japan have WAY too much staff doing about nothing productive all day long. This is due to the long standing tradition that started in the 70s to keep hiring most university graduates well before they graduate in April every single year, even though there is no such need for hiring (kind of social contract between the Japanese government and the large corporations). If anything less workforce will be a blessing, they will have to finally focus on what REALLY matters.
- 1_2__4 9y ago
  This makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't the companies expand their output if they have idle workers? I feel like you described 1/10th of the issue and it's up to the reader to fill in the rest?
  - s73ver 9y ago
    You still have to sell that output. And until you do, you have to store that output. And if you can't sell that output, then you have to get rid of it in a fire sale.
0xbear 9y ago
Yeah, I do get contacted by Japanese recruiters, and their comp in my field is pretty laughable by US standards. That said, the same applies to all of Europe as well. People literally seem to be making one third of what they'd be making in the US if they were any good.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  The metric that you have to consider is salary - taxes - costs of living [including health insurance] + expected future revenues [in particular pensions] Can you provide me evidence that, say, Germany, is so much worse than the USA with respect to this metric?
  - Pyxl101 9y ago
    It's also important to factor in the ability to move later. If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. If I earn a large amount in the US in a high cost of living area, then I can still live frugally and move to a low cost of living area later. Cost of living is fungible. If I buy a property in an expensive city, then I have to invest a lot of my money, but I can also recoup that later if I sell the property. In boom cities the property will appreciate and create more wealth. Other costs like food and transportation provide the opportunity to be significantly frugal if you desire to be. But with the high compensation available to top workers in tech, it's possible to not be frugal and still save a large amount.
    - Bartweiss 9y ago
      > If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. Having done this out of school, I found myself literally borrowing money for first/last/security. Not much money, and not for long, but that's of course because I had a signed contract before I settled on an apartment. Cheap living is pleasant, but it can leave you in a serious cash crunch should you try to move - especially as a young person.
  - 9y ago
mathattack 9y ago
Japan has one of the lowest birthrates in the world. This is inevitable as demand from the elderly outpaces young people to fulfill it.
- onion2k 9y ago
  Presumably though, as tax revenue falls due to citizens retiring, that will lead to more privatization of services as the government won't have the money to buy them, and a consequential push towards automation as service providers try to lower costs. If automation happens quickly enough it's not outside the realms of possibility that Japan's aging population could lead to fewer jobs in some sectors.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    > that will lead to more privatization of services as the government won't have the money to buy them, Governments can be funded by their central banks printing money. > and a consequential push towards automation as service providers try to lower costs. Governments can put that same automation in place to provide services with no profit motive.
  - mathattack 9y ago
    This is a lot of automation. :-) When you have 1.46 births per Mom [0] you are effectively automating a quarter of the jobs. On the surface this seems achievable, but generally automation winds up creating new needs. (The advent of tractors meant farmers were more productive, and other jobs wound up absorbing hte workers) [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+birth+rate&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS568US569&oq=japanese+birth+rate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.2328j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+birth+rate&rlz=1C5C...
SirLJ 9y ago
Just remember in the end of the 80s and the begging of the 90s, Japan was on the verge to become the world most powerful economy and market crash after that... 25+ years later the market is still almost in half - so many retirement money lost and a great example why buy and hold for a long time is actually not a good retirement strategy...
- rpazyaquian 9y ago
  What does that mean for things like Vanguard's retirement fund strategy? Isn't that based entirely on long-term improvement in the market?
  - SirLJ 9y ago
    It means that all those robo fintech companies and the Vanguards of the world are making a lot of money, but "buy and hope" is not a good retirement strategy for the little guy, especially if you are close to retirement and you have some money set aside and count on them to live off...
beep_beep 9y ago
Fun fact, the Phillips curve for Japan sure looks a lot like Japan: http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/working_papers/papers/qed_wp_1083.pdf http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/working_papers/papers/qed_wp_1083... See also the wage inflation/unemployment relationship. https://www.boj.or.jp/en/research/wps_rev/lab/lab14e02.htm/ https://www.boj.or.jp/en/research/wps_rev/lab/lab14e02.htm/
Mikeb85 9y ago
Who'd have thought limiting the labour pool would drive up wages?
mcappleton 9y ago
The fundamental problem is that the Japanese population is shrinking. The only real solution is more babies or at least really good robots.

120 points by SirLJ 9y ago

Partly this is a recognition that Japan Inc. has historically awarded a blended compensation package which includes salary, benefits similar to most first-world countries, and a host of non-pecuniary terms which are not broadly enjoyed across all W-2 employees in the US. ("Expectation of lifetime employment" is a biggie; there are substantially more subtle terms, too, like "We're going to take care of you, and we sincerely mean that, and you trust us to sincerely mean that. This will manifest itself in behaviors which American companies would describe as quixotic to irrational to outright disturbing[+].") The non-pecuniary terms have been weakening in recent years but salaries have not been increasing at anything approaching parity. The non-pecuniary terms are not small relative to the total notional compensation package. One reason that Japanese companies are having difficulty hiring folks is that their candidates have marked-to-market the non-pecuniary terms. There is a totally defensible reason to value Toyota's standard offer as of 1975 at being worth an integer multiple of the salary part of the package. It is very, very difficult to make the case that a traditionally managed Japanese company's non-pecuniary terms are presently worth $50~$100k per year given that one will be taking advantage of them in 2017 to 2062 as opposed to 1975 to 2020. [+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride.

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PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. Yikes.
- cgarrigue 9y ago
  The image you have is probably close to how in some societies 2 families decide their children are betrothed to each other. The reality is closer to match making: some colleagues might introduce you to somebody who could be a match. Or maybe they will invite you to what is called a goukon, a group date where one of the male participants invite a few colleagues or friends of his who are single while his girlfriend invite the same number of female colleagues or friends of hers who are single.
  - mikekchar 9y ago
    Though to be fair, arranged marriages are pretty common in Japan. Several of my friends have arranged marriages and are as happy as any other couple I know. I suppose you can think of it like online dating, where there is also an expectation that both parties are looking to get married. It would not surprise me at all that a company would pay the fees for a match maker if being single was causing a valued employee emotional distress. Especially foreign workers don't have family to take care of this kind of thing (sometimes parents will intervene and contact a match maker if they feel that their child is taking too long to get married). I've never been a full time worker in Japan, except in my own consulting company (obviously -- otherwise I would still be there ;-) ). But with a 1 year renewable contract (the normal way to work if you are not a full time employee), I was surprised at the extent to which the company takes care of you. It's nice if you are like me where you want to concentrate on work, but I've known people who get frustrated by what they see as an intrusion on their personal affairs. When I was working at the high school where I taught English, several times I had conversations with the vice principal who felt that me being single past the age of 40 was a problem. He even sent me to talk to the nurse so that she could explain how Japanese relationships work and impress upon me the importance of taking things seriously. And... well... I listened. And they were right. I got married to a Japanese woman who I was dating (not the nurse ;-) ). Not only has it made my life dramatically happier, but it's helped my job incredibly (even though I'm consulting IT related stuff instead of teaching English ;-) ). But it's kind of beyond weird have that kind of intervention at work...
    - 9y ago
dcw303 9y ago
Wow. Choosing your wife for you? Who and where was this company?! My experience with a traditionally Japanese run megacorp/zaibatsu in the heart of Tokyo is much more like a traditional western company. The minutia of HR is very Japanese and hard to get your head around, but the broad strokes of salary/bonus/non monetary benefits (I had to look up what pecuniary means) is basically the same.
- ramchip 9y ago
  I don’t think “choosing” is the right word, it’s more like providing the opportunity to meet someone with drinking events, goukon etc. At least if his company is like the ones I’ve seen.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    The thread is definitely making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its providing networking opportunities, not selecting an actual person to be married off.
    - srtjstjsj 9y ago
      And it's an invitation to a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit in a USA corporation.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        The anecdote in question occurs in Japan.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    And added social pressure if one doesn't eventually move forward (this would be applied to anyone not marrying). Granted, you can somewhat see this in the US but on a much less official level. I've personally noticed it as I have aged but haven't looked into marrying or having children. Employees who have been around even longer than I have mentioned that I'll be making it harder to move upward, though no one will every officially put that on paper.
mc32 9y ago
Context is a bit important. My understanding (erroneous perh) About 30% of the workforce works at the larger companies -The Mitsubishis, Toyotas, etc. Those are the ones who used to typically hire before graduation and offered the "lifetime employment". Most of the workforce work for SMBs (<300 emps) --not the prototypical salaryman employer. Not all salarymen are averse to job hopping --though at low annual percentages, still the typical worker didn't work their whole life at one co. AFAIUI.
sho 9y ago
> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride Are you sure you understood him correctly? That would be highly irregular, to say the least. More likely it was an offer to pay for a matching agency. Arranged marriages between specific people are pretty rare these days, and unheard of outside of family. Unless your boss literally adopted you, he would never take on that responsibility!
- patio11 9y ago
  I doubt he would phrase it the same way I did, but I am absolutely not materially misremembering the conversation in which he said, and this is a verbatim quote translated from Japanese, "[24 year old coworker], this is Patrick. He just joined, graduated from a good school in America, and has a bright future with the company. Have you ever considered an international marriage?"
  - sho 9y ago
    Oh I'm not doubting you. But that's slightly different. Putting in a good word for you and making introductions to eligible young co-workers isn't quite the same as "here's your bride!", which is what it sounded like. I can absolutely imagine a 50s-ish japanese boss saying exactly the contents of your quote.
    - srtjstjsj 9y ago
      "sourcing" in this context means "identifying and referring candidates" not making an official commitment.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Exactly. If you hire a recruiter to source employees for you, they aren't going to come back and say "Here's your employee. Hope things work out for you." they are going to say "Here's someone who seems like a good fit. Do you want to interview them?".
raleighm 9y ago
>> sourcing the bride To be clear, this is not at all normal in Japan either (at least not in Tokyo or Osaka or anywhere other than very small companies with septuagenarian managers). No one prices matchmaking services into compensation considerations. Agree generally with the rest.
- jsemrau 9y ago
  "Sourcing" might be a bit string, but there are company organised outings for match making
akg_67 9y ago
I actually know several instances of how company expects employees to sacrifice everything for the wellbeing of company and how company takes care of employees for life. One example, during 2008 crisis, the company my friend was working for 20+ years already, was in trouble and didn't pay employees for almost a year. My friend continued to work for the company despite it being bankrupt and him not getting paid for so long. Once company turnaround completed and came out of bankruptcy, owners not only made unpaid employees whole but has done much more for the employees that stuck around during bad times. The loyalty runs both ways.
- Sholmesy 9y ago
  Nice anecdote, and I'm glad your friend was made whole (and then some), but this is crazy. I wonder how many times the same scenario has played out, and the company continued to spiral into bankruptcy. Separating emotion from $$$ is important for this exact reason. He owes the company nothing. Maybe I'm being overly cynical though...
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- new299 9y ago
  I find all these anecdotes interesting, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from them. I've worked in Japan, and seen the inside of a few Japanese companies. I've seen some weird stuff. I've worked in other countries too and I saw some pretty weird stuff in those companies too. Thing is, I think there's a tendency too attribute weird things that happen in Japan to "Japanese culture" where-as sometimes it's really just a weird thing that happened... I think that's less of a case perhaps in other countries, where you have a better understanding of the baseline culture. I'd love to see more studies/data on what the average experience is like.
- dugditches 9y ago
  I knew people with 25+ years just gone after 2008 dip. Most people can't afford to be 'loyal'(especially for a year~) and have bills to pay/children to feed. I've been to several factories/shops, and that 'loyalty' is quickly eroding. As worker wages stagnate while Management's increase. Management being under the squeeze of following Gov't Regulations and Outsourcing. So both sides are under this toxic stress.
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
>[+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. This was the example I was thinking of when reading the first part of your message. I'm glad you said it because I feared it would've been seen as an exaggeration if I added it as an example I've heard of. So to anyone who is reading about this and doesn't trust a single anonymous source, let this second anonymous source add on that I've read about the same behavior, and even more disturbing behavior happening to unmarried female employees (where do you think they source the brides from?). That said, I've heard about these cases at a few companies. I do not have sufficient evidence to generalize beyond that, only to point out that it does happen (and is tolerated by the legal system, no chance of that in the US), not the rate at which it happens nor if it is a fair generalization of Japanese companies in general.
- nihonde 9y ago
  Not to trivialize real gender prejudice, but there is no shortage of Japanese women who are in a dire search for a convenient marriage to a busy man who can give her children, financial support, and otherwise leave her alone. Even among my friends, whom I consider to be highly intelligent and evolved people, this is a perfectly normal aspiration.
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    Is this a cultural thing? Do women in Japan not aspire to fall in love?
    - Micrococonut 9y ago
      It is my understanding that "love" (the Western standard of Romantic love) isn't as important as building a stable relationship piece by piece in non-Western cultures.
      - fatjokes 9y ago

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> At the same time, baby boomers are approaching retirement It wouldn't have occurred to me that Japan had a baby boom. I suppose soldiers returning home in despair or in triumph are all looking for comfort and stability.

TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
The last century of Japanese history looks a lot like that of the Western developed nations. (Probably because Japan made itself into a Western-style empire, then got involved in WW2 big time with the Western powers, then got a Western-style American occupation, so…)
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  I guess I'd always assumed that the Baby Boom was the result of a victorious end to war, but the other makes sense too. Was there a baby boom after WWI, or the American Civil War, or other wars that siphoned off a major part of a country's young men?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 9y ago
    Quick googling leads to this StackExchange question regarding WWI. Apparently it didn't see a boom (at least, not in the US?): https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/1026/did-ww1-produce-a-baby-boom-like-demographic-effect-in-usa-or-elsewhere https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/1026/did-ww1-pro...
    - protomyth 9y ago
      It was a lot easier to move around the country and commute ranges were greater after WWII due to the enhanced infrastructure and greater number of personal automobiles. This and the improved economy after the war had some big effects on society.
    - bsder 9y ago
      It's funny that nobody mentions the Spanish Flu. Unusually, that took out a lot of child-bearing age individuals around the world. And the flu, in particular, ravaged pregnant women.

raleighm 9y ago

True that Japanese companies should pay more. For what it's worth, it doesn't appear to have started. Nikkei ran a story today noting that summer bonuses (which are a thing) are down for the time in five years.

dcw303 9y ago

The problem is Japan has been in a deflationary environment for so long that they've forgotten how to bump up a price and turned into a nation of misers. I've witnessed first hand the collective hysteria when an ice cream company raised their prices by 10 yen[0] and also had to put up with coworkers banging on in excitement whenever 7-11 has an Onigiri sale dropping from 110 to 100 yen. Not to mention the queues stretching around the block when Yoshinoya cuts a buck and a half off their beef bowls. My anecdotal evidence, based on looking in shop windows, is there's plenty of part time (arubaito) jobs on offer; the problem is young people are too smart to take them up on their pitiful 700 yen per hour offers, which in Tokyo barely cover your transport and lunch costs. And yet the businesses will continue to weep and wail and gnash their teeth because they can't find anyone. It's not rocket science. [0] https://qz.com/656080/a-japanese-ice-cream-maker-deeply-apologizes-for-raising-prices-by-9-cents/ https://qz.com/656080/a-japanese-ice-cream-maker-deeply-apol...

delhanty 9y ago
>coworkers banging on in excitement whenever 7-11 has an Onigiri sale dropping from 110 to 100 yen Usually it's an up to 150 yen onigiri for 100 yen, so of course they're going to get excited. Edit: It looks like it is/was an up to 160 yen onigiri for 100 yen! That's a 37.5% discount! [1] [1] http://seven-eleven-mania-blog.jp/gohankei/5617/ http://seven-eleven-mania-blog.jp/gohankei/5617/
- timr 9y ago
  It's still pretty silly, considering the absolute value of the savings. My personal favorite along these lines is the way that a single building might have 2-3 floors of the same kind of restaurant (say, yakitori), but the one place that is 5 yen cheaper per item will have a line out the door, while the others are half-empty.
  - FussyZeus 9y ago
    Is this a cultural thing? I've never been to Japan so I'm kind of flying blind here but I'd assign that 5 yen as a convenience cost and happily pay that price to avoid the long line. I have a hard time thinking the Japanese people place no value on their time whatsoever...

adventured 9y ago

Japan's primary problem on income is that the economic ground they've lost in the last 20 years is vast. In the late 1980s, their GDP per capita was beyond that of the US. Now it needs to climb 50% to catch up. The last 20 years has taken them back to #16 among major economies in terms of GDP per capita. That gives you an idea of how difficult it's going to be for Japan to bring their incomes back in line with high per capita output economies like the US (or Australia, Denmark, Sweden, etc). They need very substantial, sustained economic growth for a decade or more to start regaining lost ground. Their debt problems will continue to put pressure on the Yen, the debasement of which is a big culprit in the sizable drop in their standard of living over the last decade. While their interest costs are eating up such a large portion of their budget, their ability to properly invest into growth is heavily restricted. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've yet to see a plan for how they're going to deal with that. To make matters worse, their savings rate has dropped to low single digits, as their standard of living has dropped they've been forced to reduce savings to try to maintain (which has further pressured the government's ability to properly fund itself, as they can no longer count on tapping into large new pools of savings via debt issuance, leading to abusing the Yen as a last resort).

nihonde 9y ago
Lots of childless old-timers are sitting on hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars in liquid assets that presumably will revert to the state. Household savings in the 60+ demographic are exemplary. Of course, that's part of the reason the economy is stagnant.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  Keynes vs. Hayek in a nutshell.
- rpazyaquian 9y ago
  Sounds like where the US is headed.

ekianjo 9y ago

Running out of people? Most large corporations in Japan have WAY too much staff doing about nothing productive all day long. This is due to the long standing tradition that started in the 70s to keep hiring most university graduates well before they graduate in April every single year, even though there is no such need for hiring (kind of social contract between the Japanese government and the large corporations). If anything less workforce will be a blessing, they will have to finally focus on what REALLY matters.

1_2__4 9y ago
This makes no sense to me. Why wouldn't the companies expand their output if they have idle workers? I feel like you described 1/10th of the issue and it's up to the reader to fill in the rest?
- s73ver 9y ago
  You still have to sell that output. And until you do, you have to store that output. And if you can't sell that output, then you have to get rid of it in a fire sale.

0xbear 9y ago

Yeah, I do get contacted by Japanese recruiters, and their comp in my field is pretty laughable by US standards. That said, the same applies to all of Europe as well. People literally seem to be making one third of what they'd be making in the US if they were any good.

wolfgke 9y ago
The metric that you have to consider is salary - taxes - costs of living [including health insurance] + expected future revenues [in particular pensions] Can you provide me evidence that, say, Germany, is so much worse than the USA with respect to this metric?
- Pyxl101 9y ago
  It's also important to factor in the ability to move later. If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. If I earn a large amount in the US in a high cost of living area, then I can still live frugally and move to a low cost of living area later. Cost of living is fungible. If I buy a property in an expensive city, then I have to invest a lot of my money, but I can also recoup that later if I sell the property. In boom cities the property will appreciate and create more wealth. Other costs like food and transportation provide the opportunity to be significantly frugal if you desire to be. But with the high compensation available to top workers in tech, it's possible to not be frugal and still save a large amount.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    > If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. Having done this out of school, I found myself literally borrowing money for first/last/security. Not much money, and not for long, but that's of course because I had a signed contract before I settled on an apartment. Cheap living is pleasant, but it can leave you in a serious cash crunch should you try to move - especially as a young person.
- 9y ago

mathattack 9y ago

Japan has one of the lowest birthrates in the world. This is inevitable as demand from the elderly outpaces young people to fulfill it.

onion2k 9y ago
Presumably though, as tax revenue falls due to citizens retiring, that will lead to more privatization of services as the government won't have the money to buy them, and a consequential push towards automation as service providers try to lower costs. If automation happens quickly enough it's not outside the realms of possibility that Japan's aging population could lead to fewer jobs in some sectors.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  > that will lead to more privatization of services as the government won't have the money to buy them, Governments can be funded by their central banks printing money. > and a consequential push towards automation as service providers try to lower costs. Governments can put that same automation in place to provide services with no profit motive.
- mathattack 9y ago
  This is a lot of automation. :-) When you have 1.46 births per Mom [0] you are effectively automating a quarter of the jobs. On the surface this seems achievable, but generally automation winds up creating new needs. (The advent of tractors meant farmers were more productive, and other jobs wound up absorbing hte workers) [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+birth+rate&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS568US569&oq=japanese+birth+rate&aqs=chrome.0.0l6.2328j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=japanese+birth+rate&rlz=1C5C...

SirLJ 9y ago

Just remember in the end of the 80s and the begging of the 90s, Japan was on the verge to become the world most powerful economy and market crash after that... 25+ years later the market is still almost in half - so many retirement money lost and a great example why buy and hold for a long time is actually not a good retirement strategy...

rpazyaquian 9y ago
What does that mean for things like Vanguard's retirement fund strategy? Isn't that based entirely on long-term improvement in the market?
- SirLJ 9y ago
  It means that all those robo fintech companies and the Vanguards of the world are making a lot of money, but "buy and hope" is not a good retirement strategy for the little guy, especially if you are close to retirement and you have some money set aside and count on them to live off...

beep_beep 9y ago

Fun fact, the Phillips curve for Japan sure looks a lot like Japan: http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/working_papers/papers/qed_wp_1083.pdf http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/working_papers/papers/qed_wp_1083... See also the wage inflation/unemployment relationship. https://www.boj.or.jp/en/research/wps_rev/lab/lab14e02.htm/ https://www.boj.or.jp/en/research/wps_rev/lab/lab14e02.htm/

Mikeb85 9y ago

Who'd have thought limiting the labour pool would drive up wages?

mcappleton 9y ago

The fundamental problem is that the Japanese population is shrinking. The only real solution is more babies or at least really good robots.