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Robot cracks open safe live on Def Con's stage
- Pinckney 9y agoIt's a cool robot, but auto-dialers are a known tool in safecracking. Additionally, the safe in question seems to be a SentrySafe SF082CS, which caries NO security rating from UL. The lowest test rating, RSC, only requires the safe survive a 5 minute attack with hand tools.
- drunkenmonkey 9y agoDefcon is always raising the bar.
- p4lindromica 9y agoHow do I find a UL-security-rated safe? Does it matter if I don't bolt it to the floor?
- Pinckney 9y agoI'm far from an expert, but the common ratings to look for are UL RSC, TL-15, or TL-30 depending on what level of protection you want. The ratings are expensive, so generally vendors show them off prominently. Not bolting it down does make it much easier to steal. A small safe like this can be carried off pretty easily. Even with a large safe, being able to move it can make it easier to use a pry-bar or to cut through a side-panel.
- donavanm 9y agoDepends on where you are. UL ratings are used in north america. There are similar EU ratings that I dont recall of hand. TL ratings are for theft/entry resistance. There are other modifiers for fire, water, chemical, etc resistance. Unrated "safes", and even some that are said to be rated, are junk. In NA you want to get in touch with a local safe dealer/specialist. Most of their business is commercial, and they are not the same as a locks ith or "security" company. Moving and installing a safe is a specialist job by itself. As a sibling commented RSCs are the lowest level and appropriate for home use of low level valuables. Expect $500-1000 and up. TL rated products are almoat always geared towards commercial use. When I was looking a local safe company had a korean made TL-15 with 1 hr fire resistance for about $2500. This was a very bare bones commercial demo/returned unit about 2'x3'x5' interior. All safes and RSCs must be anchored to the structure on 2 or more sides to be effective. RSCs or "gun safes" will simply be pulled/cut out of the structure if not anchored. TL safes will be knocked over and attacked at the door or floor. Heres UL testing a safe that probably costs $10,000+ today. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OtbGUbeM860
- p4lindromica 9y agoThis leads me to believe that if I am renting an apartment, I am SOL.
- Ellie_ 9y agomy buddy's step-aunt makes $68 /hour on the laptop . She has been without a job for nine months but last month her check was $99350 just working on the laptop for a few hours. check my source ——————– < lllllllllllllllllllllllWWW.joinmate2.Comlllllllllllllllllll >
- cantrevealname 9y ago> if I am renting an apartment, I am SOL Not at all! If you're renting in a high-rise building, the floors will be concrete below the laminate or hardwood. A good safe will have either 4 holes or 1 center hole in the base to allow you to anchor it to the floor. Use a concrete drill bit to drill a hole in your apartment floor in a discreet area, like in a closet or laundry room. If you can borrow a hammer drill it'll be faster, but even an ordinary drill will work, though slower. Make sure you buy a concrete drill bit. Then attach the safe using concrete screws and anchors. You can use either a self-tapping concrete screw or, better, put the correct size expanding sleeve into the hole first[1]. Even with a single concrete anchor/screw, the safe will be 100 times more difficult to steal. I've seen expensive TL-15 safes ($5000+) with only one center hole in the base, so I assume the manufacturer thought that was sufficient (if properly anchored). Before you place the safe, put down a sheet of plastic or a very thin patch of carpet to protect the laminate or hardwood floor. Cut holes in the plastic sheet or carpet for the concrete screws. When you move out of your rented apartment, fill the holes with putty matching the color of the laminate or hardwood floor. If you make a small effort at patching up, the holes will be invisible. One more piece of advice: The drilling won't take long, but it'll be very loud. If you have a nosy landlord or superintendent, do the drilling when he's not around. A superintendent, for example, is unlikely to work on a Saturday or Sunday. Also, cover the safe with a sheet or blanket, so if someone casually looks in your closet or laundry room, the safe won't be noticed. http://howtospecialist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/How-to-install-concrete-anchor-4.jpg http://howtospecialist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/How-to...
- cjensen 9y agoI have a friend who cleans up around the Bay. It's fairly common for him to find a safe that's been opened and then discarded as trash. (You'd be surprised at what floats). So yeah, if your safe isn't bolted down, a burglar will probably just take it with them.
- A_Person 9y ago> Does it matter if I don't bolt it to the floor? It depends on the type of safe. I'm not a locksmith, but I have researched this, and this is how I understand it. There are "security" safes (aka "burglar" safes), and "fireproof" safes. A security safe should be bolted to the floor, to stop the bad guys ripping it out. It comes with pre-drilled holes for that purpose. However, a fireproof safe should not have any thru-wall holes, since a fireproof safe must protect against the deluge of water that will occur when the fire is put out. Thus, fireproof safes are often glued instead of bolted. Some time ago, a relative showed me his new safe. It didn't have any pre-drilled holes, so he drilled some in, so he could bolt it to the floor. I chose not to tell him the following: (1) The fact that he could drill any holes in the safe, using his trusty Black & Decker drill, showed that it was a fireproof safe - not a security safe; and (2), drilling those holes destroyed its value as a fireproof safe! In summary, you need to decide what's most important - theft protection, or fire protection. Those are different types of safes. The problem is they look identical to the untrained eye. [edit: sp]
- unkown-unknowns 9y agoBut for his own sake wouldn't it be better you told him so that he can either get a burglar proof safe if that's what he wants or get a new fireproof safe that he then doesn't destroy by drilling through it? I know that a lot of people don't appreciate advice though, but still if this relative respects you they should listen.
- thatguy10101 9y ago"he should listen".
- jwilk 9y agoOut of interest, is the typo in your username deliberate?
- unkown-unknowns 9y agoNope, accidental.
- Ccecil 9y agoI have seen safes which you put a number of weights in the bottom, then you move the safe and door separate which both weigh a lot each. The hope is that once assembled and weighted it can't be moved easily. But...clever fools and all...so nothing is perfect and more layers of protection cost more money.
- A_Person 9y ago> The hope is that once assembled and weighted it can't be moved easily. It's amazing how heavy a burglar safe is - even a small one. I have one just big enough to store some documents, spare phone, keys, and some cash. But it took two guys and a trolley to get it up the stairs to my apartment. Even if a burglar could rip it out of the floor, and push it down the stairs, I doubt that they could lift it up into their car or whatever.
- bsamuels 9y agothere's a little more to this than autodialing; dialing the entire keyspace would have taken several days. presenter used some manufacturing defects to narrow the keyspace into something that could be cracked in 45 minutes.
- asciimo 9y agoI love this frank response from the safe manufacturer: '... speaking to Wired magazine earlier this month, when the team demonstrated its method on a smaller safe, a spokeswoman for the safe maker said: "In this environment, the product accomplished what it was designed to do."'
- ChuckMcM 9y agoIt is designed to trick people into building robots to open it? :-) More seriously though, I consulted a friend and neighbor when buying a safe for my home. This person who owns a locksmith shop and is a registered locksmith (and has been for > 20 years) asked me to look up the median response time of the police to my address. Since I live near the police station it was fairly small. He said you only need a safe that can last 15 - 20 minutes and you will need to anchor it so that it can't be easily yanked out of your house. Any professional thief will skip it and it may keep an amateur working on it long enough for the police to arrive and arrest them in the act. That made a lot of sense to me.
- micaksica 9y agoYou bought a TL-15 safe for your home? Where did you place it? Even the smaller TL-15 safes weigh hundreds of pounds and require some logistics to place. They are very impractical for most apartment dweller types, or even some high-density, old-construction flats because of their weight.
- cantrevealname 9y ago> Even the smaller TL-15 safes weigh hundreds of pounds I've seen a TL-15 safe that came as 6 separate modular pieces (i.e., 5 walls and the door each weighing about 100-150 pounds) that you bolted together, internally, with about 50-60 heavy bolts. It was specifically intended for condos, high rise offices, etc., so you could easily transport each piece on a hand cart or dolly, then assemble in place. It was a beautiful design, but no longer manufactured as far as I can tell.
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
- anindha 9y agoSo many people in SF leave their house keys in those 3 digit combination locks for Wag dog walkers. Something like this could crack that in seconds.
- throwaway76543 9y agoA typical front door lock is considerably easier to defeat than the mechanism on one of these safes. Many can be opened in seconds with a bump key or other pick tools.
- aqzman 9y agoNo kidding! I recently picked up lock picking as a hobby, and it really makes me realize just how insecure most locks really are. I'm a total beginner and I'm able to pick some locks in seconds.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y agoMost regular houses I've lived in (in Australia) could be trivially and discretely broken in to with a jemmy bar (crowbar). My neighbour had his two jet skis stolen from his carport on a weekday, they were chained to a post. The auto shop across from my work had their delivery ute stolen from inside the building while six staff were an open door way away. I caught someone sitting in my car trying to start it with a screwdriver. I nearly asked him if he wanted me to show him how it's done. I keep telling my partner not to leave her laptops and cashbox visible from the windows and to lock the front door when she's in the bathroom or backyard. People I thought were my friends have stolen from me. Unless you have something worth protecting and the budget to protect it... Security is a hopeless mess.
- robk 9y agoIs Tasmania that bad? This sounds like Detroit
- 9y ago
- thesmallestcat 9y agoSomebody dumb enough to leave a key to their house right next to their house in a city like SF deserves to get burglarized.
- maxerickson 9y agoWhat about all the houses with doors that won't stand up to a sledgehammer? Or unbarred windows.
- thesmallestcat 9y agoThere's a big difference between forced and unforced entry.
- abelM 9y agoI wonder, what would be the charge in this situation ?
- vnchr 9y agoBrute forced entry
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- maxerickson 9y agoBeyond the "un", what's the difference in San Francisco?
- thesmallestcat 9y agoQuite a few burglars only do unforced entries.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
- 0xbear 9y agoAren't there a whole bunch of videos on YouTube of kids opening these with not much more than a length of steel wire and primitive hand tools? You decidedly do not want a safe that's not UL listed.
- natch 9y agoThink of this as version 1.0 of the robot, though. Unlike hand tools, the improvement curve of such robots will be interesting to watch over time. [Edit: especially to the extent that the improvement is partly in the innovative hands of the hacker / maker community as opposed to just a few commercial companies as with existing "speed dialers."]
- CydeWeys 9y agoThe point is that this approach is general and scales to tougher safes, since they too must open to the correct combination, whereas the hand tools and steel wire approach doesn't scale up.
- Animats 9y agoHere's a commercial version. [1] This seems to be an exhaustive-search combination lock solver. Someone else has built one that not only manipulates the lock, but uses a contact microphone to listen to it. But I can't find the reference. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIavLorioys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIavLorioys
- themcaffee 9y agoA key element of this is it's ability to limit the amount of possible combinations from 1 million to about 1000 due to small flaws in the dials. A contact microphone might be able to even further reduce this search space in combination with the existing exploits.
- Animats 9y agoThere are Sergeant and Greenleaf locks with a half-digit tolerance, so you have to get the number exactly right. They're not popular, because they're such a pain to use.
- blacksmythe 9y ago>> half-digit tolerance I assume you mean <0.5digit tolerance. There is a big difference between 0.55digit tolerance (might be able to try two numbers at once with enough mechanical precision to the solver) and 0.45digit tolerance.
- agumonkey 9y agoLast month I had the disappointing surprise of finding a lock on my bike. I forgot I put it (it's been years since I last used it). And it's not a key lock.. so I'm screwed. Not willing to cut the cable.. I decided to brute force it. 999 space is fun. Luckily you quickly find similar tips than the alignment one to speed up the process. And since it's not a full rotary lock, I could also "DDR" the tests by testing when going from 0 to 9 then from 9 to 0. 5 minutes later and 800 attempts I was lifting my bike like a king. Until I realize the rear tire was dead. TL;DR; do not succomb to the seductive power of cryptanalysis.. check rubber first !
- slau 9y agoIt probably would have been faster to apply tension to the lock, and then rotate the rows of digits until you find the "binder" (the one that the lock is resting on under tension). Once you have found the binder, rotate it until you feel the lock open slightly and the digit ring falls into the gate. The digit ring will move freely for about 1.5 digits until it starts to seize again. Repeat until you've found all the digits. I've done this one a number of occasions to help friends unlock their bikes, or to troll them by changing the combination on their bike. tl;dr: combination locks suck. Don't use them, ever. Case in point: https://youtu.be/uMvx0GtfEOk https://youtu.be/uMvx0GtfEOk
- kumarvvr 9y agoThose framing pieces of aluminum or steel look awesome. They look great for quick mechanical structural work. Anyone have any idea where to buy them from ?
- kejaed 9y agoThe people that presented this on stage are from SparkFun, you can likely buy all the bit from them. Most of the robot parts look like it is from the Acrobatics line that they cary: https://www.sparkfun.com/pages/Actobotics https://www.sparkfun.com/pages/Actobotics
- saalweachter 9y agoI'm honestly a little disappointed it's "just" an automated safe cracker. I wanted to see a hulking brute of a robot peel the safe like an apple with its powerful metal claws.
- radarsat1 9y ago> Some SentrySafe models come with an additional lock and key, but the team was able to unlock it by using a Bic pen. Um.. that also seems like an important problem?
- Pinckney 9y agoIt's a well-known attack on tubular locks.
- dws 9y agoSparkFun posted a full tutorial on their machine few months ago. https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-cracking-robot https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/building-a-safe-crackin...