31 ms·
Sperm Count Dropping in Western World
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- carsongross 9y agoTurns out it wasn't commies that were going to corrupt our precious bodily fluids, but rather post cold war end-of-history ennui.
- jlebrech 9y agobasic biology, plenty of hormones floating around so you're not so essential to the survival of the species.
- jordache 9y agoyeah right.. evolution observed in the tiny span of time that is recorded modern science?
- jlebrech 9y agolike i said, basic biology https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradise-into-a-terrifyin-1687584457 http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradis...
- jlebrech 9y agogenetics doesn't have to observe anything for millions of years to observe to results of evolution.
- JPLeRouzic 9y agoYou are downvoted, but I believe science is on your side. Just one recent article on the "Island rule": http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1857/20171065 http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/284/1857/2017...
- Sleeep 9y agoThe Atlantic tomcod in the Hudson River has evolved immunity to the PCBs dumped in the river by General Electric. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/110217-hudson-river-pcb-fish-evolution-water/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/02/110217-hudso...
- gozur88 9y agoThere was an article linked on HN awhile back about getting bacteria to evolve resistance to antibiotics in just a few days.
- marchenko 9y agoThat is possible because the generation time of many bacteria can be measured in hours or minutes. The generation time in humans is ~25 years (possibly a bit higher in the western countries mentioned) So there could be hundreds of bacterial generations in a few days, but only ~2 human generations in the time period covered by this study. Selection would have to be extremely strong (the strongest ever observed by far) for the sperm count decrease to be primarily related to selection.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- kaybe 9y agoThe record of human evolution we know of is ~3000 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_humans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_adaptation_in_hu...
- jlebrech 9y agoand yet my initial comment makes no mention of evolution, i'm talking about hormones being released or not being released because they are too many of us.
- bantunes 9y agoInterested in potential causes for this. Our polluted cities? Just stress? Bad diet?
- chime 9y agoNot sure if this study was replicated again but it could be one potential reason: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39888170 http://www.nbcnews.com/id/39888170
- Reason077 9y agoEnvironmental pollutants? Endocrine disruptors? Internet porn?! Most of us are probably eating healthier than 40 years ago (Heart disease is way down), so not sure it's diet. Unless of course its all the chemicals and contaminants that we're getting with our food...
- Fishman343 9y agoYou say eating healthier, but obesity and diabetes are at all time highs in most of the western world, I don't think it's that cut and dry.
- andreime 9y agoWe're also a lot more sedentary. I am convinced without being able to produce proof, that this is the biggest problem - the lack of physical work. I used to believe we eat shit, but my ancestors were really poor and basically ate just a few food types most of their life. I think I've come a long way and am convinced that, even if I were to eat a very occasional McDonalds, it'd still be eating a lot better. It's a lot more diverse and that really makes a difference. Don't know about you but I very rarely eat the same thing two days in a row.
- Fishman343 9y agoNutritionally I see what you mean and definitely agree, people are taller than they used to be and until recently have lived longer. But all of the benefits a nutritionally diverse and rich diet brings are easily undone (and more) by also consuming enough sugar to become obese. This is why the current generation of obese kids at school have a lower life expectancy than their parents despite better healthcare and nutrition in their early years. This is why I think that jumping on the "BPA must be the problem!" answer to low count question is a bit ridiculous, especially when people are becoming more unhealthy by the day. People who eat more processed sugary foods and drinks that come in BPA containing packaging are also more likely to be obese and unhealthy too. Lacking physical work also does not account for all of the weight gain we are seeing at the moment - obesity rates remained stable in the '60s and '70s when we lived similarly lazy lives. (1) 1. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr043743#t=article http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsr043743#t=article
- LightskinKanye 9y agoIts due to SJWs taking away our pride and what it means to be a man
- sctb 9y agoPlease stop trolling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sjs382 9y agoI guess it's time to finally finish watching The Handmaid's Tale...
- petepete 9y agoBlessed be the fruit.
- mgberlin 9y agoI've personally become concerned recently with the abundance of BPA and it's effect on the endocrine system of men. Between disposable water bottles, aluminum can liners, and food stored in plastic containers, there's a huge amount of exposure to this endocrine disruptor. The article doesn't mention it in particular, but I think it's worth being cautious over.
- eternauta3k 9y agoGot any links to research?
- mgberlin 9y agoThe wikipedia article is extensive and well cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A
- corpMaverick 9y agoTIL about BPA. http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-answers/bpa/faq-20058331 http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-he...
- secstate 9y agoMy favorite part about the BPA fiasco is how it is mitigated on an industrial level by introducing BPS. BPS is totally safe for food-grade products because it's more stable at high temperatures. Also, it hasn't been shown to be actively deleterious to our health. And as in law, food-grade plastics are innocent until proven guilty. So done with industrial food ...
- jostmey 9y agoI don't think it is juts about BPA, but a whole myriad of "chemicals" that we're surrounding ourselves with each day.
- 9y ago
- marze 9y agoIt'd be interesting to take those with the highest levels today and look for any lifestyle differences.
- merkaloid 9y agoIsn't this good anyway? Because of overpopulation?
- swsieber 9y agoNo. Birthrates have been dropping, but this makes getting pregnant less predictable. There are other forces at work reducing the birthrate, and I think those would be enough without complicating people's lives.
- justadeveloper2 9y agoI would say the biggest issue with declining birth rates are social and psychological in nature and NOT physiological. People simply work too much, for just one example.
- grenoire 9y agoNo! Low population growth leads to a smaller labour force, and a growing elderly demographic. It's not a solution to overpopulation.
- ionised 9y agoHaving an increasing number of kids to ensure pensions are paid doesn't seem good for overpopulation issues either.
- rorygreen 9y agoI'm inclined to agree with you, despite everybody else seeming to fundamentally disagree. I'm not convinced by either of the arguments in response to your comment. We have huge amounts of unemployment in the west and an economy that is tending towards more automation and fewer jobs for humans, so why would a decrease in the size of the labour force matter? It's clear that people will continue to live longer and that birth rates will continue to fall, either by necessity (overpopulation) or due to factors like this. I hold the view that far too many people unnecessarily have children due to societal norms, family pressure, a bizarre and slightly narcissistic desire to have their genes passed down to future generations (adoption is incredibly important.) Obviously I'm not saying having children is wrong, just far too many people see it as a necessary part of their life when it really shouldn't be. Having children is an inherently selfish decision and unless you're prepared to sacrifice a huge amount of freedom to afford your children the best upbringing, then maybe having children isn't for you. Maybe I have too much faith in modern medicine (I doubt it, modern medicine is incredible) but I fully believe a trend of dropping sperm count is not apocalyptic. It'll probably result in benefits such as fewer undesired pregnancies. The important thing is to ensure that people of any economic status have access to fertility clinics, and for IVF and related procedures to not be cost prohibitive for non-wealthy people.
- dreamdu5t 9y agoI think it's simple: fat unhealthy men have lower sperm counts and America has way more fat unhealthy men over the last 40 years. Doesn't look like the meta analysis dealt with this.
- iak8god 9y agoFTA: "The results, published in the journal Human Reproduction Update, showed a 52.4 percent decline in sperm concentration and a 59.3 percent decline in total sperm count among North American, European, Australian and New Zealand men."
- izzydata 9y agoWe can only hope. This would be a great example of natural selection at work if fat unhealthy people couldn't reproduce and thinner healthy people could.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- nateconq 9y agoOnly in our current environment. If food was scarce, wouldn't those who can store energy better be more likely to survive?
- izzydata 9y agoI get what you are saying, but I don't think being fat is evidence of being able to survive in an environment of food shortages.
- dragonwriter 9y agoPolycystic ovarian syndrome, which contributes to obesity in women, seems to have adaptive advantages in famine of the type speculated upthread (and also including increased fertility then, though decreased fertility in abundant food situations.) It's not too much of a stretch to consider that there may be metabolic conditions in men linked to obesity risk that have the same kind of advantages in reduced-food-supply situations.
- tmat 9y agoi blame skinny jeans. stop wearing skinny jeans if you want to save humanity.
- jostmey 9y ago-- Sorry for the comment -- I've deleted it
- tannerc 9y agoHaving children is just one of many ways you can make an impact and "leave something behind" for the future.
- abainbridge 9y agoIndeed. The excessive number of people on Earth is currently causing a major extinction event (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction). Some might say that not having a kid is the best way to "leave something behind" for the future. It's probably preferable to have some negative feedback in the human population explosion, without having to resort to wars.
- it_learnses 9y agoAnd if you do leave something behind in the future, to what end are you doing it? You are still dead.
- colanderman 9y agoYeah, really sucks to be someone who can't or chooses not to have children, or who chooses to adopt. Dead ends on the tree of life, the lot of us. /s Please reevaluate your respect for others, if you view childrearing from your own loins as the only means of being a valuable human being.
- kevlar1818 9y agoAs someone watching The Handmaid's Tale right now, this is especially scary stuff.
- whalesalad 9y agoAre cell phones in our pockets to blame? The effects of radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation on sperm function. – https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601711 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27601711 More info here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27076112 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27076112 Also here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26949865 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26949865 And here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26206279 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26206279 Here too: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24982785 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24982785 More fuel for the fire: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24927498 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24927498
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- scottLobster 9y agoGiven that this decline apparently started in 1973, I'd say they're probably not the deciding factor.
- AndrewKemendo 9y agoI feel like something happened in the early 70s that just made progress slow way down. I keep seeing bad trends start in the 1970s - like stagnant wage growth (1971), increased inequality (1971) etc...
- bcg1 9y agoWhy are we to assume this is a bad thing, or that it is even something that won't be sorted out by natural selection?
- nashashmi 9y agoI'm upset with your question. Technology is moving faster than the pace of evolution! We know very little of how evolution works to be certain we will adapt. Besides, why are you so keen on rendering the people who were not born before the age of current tech as a class unfit in our current context?
- rustynails 9y agoYou're upset with the question? That thought process is at odds with knowledge seeking. Why not ask the question? What ever happened to discussion? Good discussion can come from bad ideas. I think it's a good question and I loosely answered it elsewhere in this thread.
- samdoidge 9y agoWhy would you not assume this is a bad thing? Sperm are needed for the survival of our species; a significant drop will cause problems to that survival, a drop to zero will cause extinction.
- ak39 9y agoIt's not about just the number of sperms males produce. It is about the most crucial male hormone: testosterone. It's strange that the article doesn't speak about it. If you read up on the importance of healthy testosterone levels in both males and females you'll see why we should all be very worried about disrupting that endocrine balance.
- rsync 9y agoUnless this is adjusted for activity levels (western folks are extremely sedentary - especially in the US) and weight I am not sure it is interesting. Obesity is negatively correlated with male fertility[1] and 3/4 of the US is obese or overweight[2]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521747/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521747/ [2] https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...
- felixbraun 9y agoCountries with low obesity levels show the same trend [1]; just look at e.g. Denmark (18.2%) [2]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10655308 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10655308 [2] (PDF) http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/243294/Denmark-Who-Country-Profile.pdf http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/243294/D...
- AstralStorm 9y agoThis suggests an environmental factor or a different dietary one. Probably not BPA or such, there would be more of a difference between western countries. Plus Asia would show it too. (Heck, they make and use a lot of these plastics.) Not atmospheric pollution either apparently (see French result). Electromagnetic wave pollution perhaps?
- schiffern 9y ago>Probably not BPA or such, there would be more of a difference between western countries. Why do you say that? Most western countries use plastic and receipts (thermal paper), which are the main sources. And BPA isn't the only xenoestrogen. PCBs, dioxins, and many agricultural biocides are too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen#Common_environmental_estrogens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen#Common_environmen... http://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/xenoestrogen http://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/xenoestroge...
- euyyn 9y ago
- smrxx 9y agoThis could be due to population size. Isn't there a species of fish where a male becomes a female when there are no other females left? It seems plausible that some mechanism is in place to self regulate.
- meerab 9y agoIf this theory was correct the males in India and China would be affected more than males in the western world.
- djtriptych 9y agoNot if population density is the trigger. How could the body evolve to be aware of national boundaries?
- maxerickson 9y agoNorth America has low population density relative to most of the world. Probably even more so if you do some sort of aggregation of the density that people live at rather than averaging population across land area. Suburbia and such.
- dom0 9y ago> North America has low population density relative to most of the world. Well the quotient N(north america) / A(north america) is low, but this value does not have to match the average or median population density in areas around samples. In other words, yes, America is a big country, but it's big cities are just as densely populated as big cities anywhere else.
- maxerickson 9y agoWell the quotient N(north america) / A(north america) is low, It's infuriating that you choose to reply like this without accounting for both paragraphs of my comment. I mean, I'll just let it go, but c'mon. I would say that US cities tend to be less dense and that Americans don't tend to live in urban centers as much as people in other countries.
- cameldrv 9y agoMy belief is that the primary cause is environmental chemicals, specifically Phthalates and BPA (and related chemicals). The science on this is fairly conclusive. We can show that these chemicals bind to estrogen receptors, that they're present in everyone's body, and that if you're acutely exposed to a higher dose, your testosterone goes down. In my opinion, these chemicals are having social and cultural effects beyond sperm counts. As individuals, there are some things you can do, but some studies have shown that about the best you can do with personal actions is a 50% reduction. The most effective things are to try not to handle store receipts on thermal paper, and wash your hands after you do, and avoid anything that has been microwaved in plastic. Generally reducing heavily processed and fast food is next, because you can't know about things like ingredients flowing through PVC tubing that leaches Phthalates. Ultimately we are in dire need of regulation of these substances, especially where there is food contact. I'm not very optimistic under trump. Someone clever though might be able to come up with a campaign about chemicals stealing your manhood that might resonate with conservative voters.
- dekhn 9y agoThe linkage between consumption of these chemicals, and their exact nature of harm, is not well established- it's not "fairly conclusive" at all. What we have is a bunch of in vitro and in vivo studies, but not actual epidemiological evidence of the quality required to make rational policy decisions. If you believe otherwise, I'm happy to ready any high quality studies you can find. Pleaes don't just cherry pick a few studies, be careful in doing your review.
- kindadumb 9y ago"be careful in doing your review." Says the lazy poster who just made a bunch of claims himself and didn't cite anything!
- xiaoma 9y agoWelcome to HN. As someone who's been here for over a decade (and had this account nearly that long), I can assure you this is normal behavior for the forum.
- simonsarris 9y agoPeople offering human-centric explanations like cell phones: Note also that the sperm quality of dogs has decreased 30% since 1988. https://elpais.com/elpais/2016/08/09/ciencia/1470755907_243246.html?rel=mas https://elpais.com/elpais/2016/08/09/ciencia/1470755907_2432... https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31281 https://www.nature.com/articles/srep31281 This suggests its more environmental, chemical, diet-based, etc.
- themodelplumber 9y agoI dunno. Just on the face of what you're saying, it's probably worth pointing out that dogs also spend a lot of time around devices used by humans. So what about e.g. wild dogs?
- Passthepeas 9y agolaptops can make your balls overheat and cause problems, I remember that being an actual problem.
- jermaustin1 9y agoDo people actually put laptops in their laps? My 12" ultra-portable sits on my desk at home/office. When commuting if I'm using it, it will sit on my backpack on my lap. My 17" laptop that is heavier than my desktop, stays on the kitchen table.
- bitmadness 9y agolol, the reason is simple: increased access to porn has led to an increased amount of semen in tissue paper with a corresponding decrease in the amount of semen in the testes.
- khana 9y agoGood news. Just in time to walk away from real-world and live in a virtual one (you know like the Matrix). that's the end game right?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Bearwithme 9y agoI'm sure the chemicals have a lot to do with it. But, I also think the lack of exercise with most Americans could have something to do with.
- debacle 9y agoIt would be interesting to see a study that compares the drop in sperm count to the drop in testosterone, to see if the drop is statistically significant or just a symptom of the drop in testosterone.
- jxramos 9y agoI just had some funny dark humor thought that men today and increasingly moving forward on average just ain't as manly as those of the past.
- Zarath 9y agoTurns out modernity is an extremely unhealthy environment for humans, especially men. Despite the narratives being thrown at you, we live in an incredibly "feminized" society where social stigma/violence/shaming are more powerful for the average person than plain old physical violence.
- livingparadox 9y agoWhy is social pressure necessarily feminine and violence necessarily masculine?
- rublev 9y agoMen are generally physically stronger than women.
- PeterisP 9y agoThe propensity to aggression, violence and excessive risk taking are biologically related to sex hormone levels, and "masculine/feminine" seem to be quite accurate words to use since e.g. feminine men would actually express this less than average men, and masculine women would express this more than average women.
- isodude 9y agoA bit of rambling but anyway. We are used to way better standard now and I assume that leads to differences being measured differently, like what brand of clothes you have. I am no expert in the building blocks of larger societies, but it sure feels like the feminine side of things (looks, feelings) is the much more differe ting fact instead of how many logs you brought home from the forest. ( comparing very small cities and larger ones ) All the concrete manhood measuring seems to be more and more meta. If we don't have that to measure if we indeed are men, then what are we? Maybe men as a protector has seen it's purpose through and is automatically being rid of, subdued to an example of what happens when success rate was too good. What we need now is engineers to build the machines and not masculine prepped men.
- awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
- stillhere 9y agoI would not call modern society "Western". It has deviated far too much from its traditions.
- stillhere 9y agoThis is a good thing.
- rustynails 9y agoI'm playing devil's advocate here. I'm glad the testing has been done and hope to see robust discussion. Some people are deliberating over 1973. It doesn't appear to be a magic year for when problems started. It appears to be the earliest date that was analysed. The question of "so what" is important (even if people are being downvoted for asking it). At least one expert has said "despite the decline found in the study, average sperm counts still remain in the normal range."[1]. I won't claim to understand "normal" in this context. What is even more fascinating is that every western country has negative population growth and has for quite some time [2]. In spite of testosterone levels being within normal range, western population numbers are going backwards across all countries. Why? There are some historical lessons that some people are looking to (eg. The decline of the Roman Empire). I would add that there are other factors that are having a bigger impact than sperm count, namely the pill and career vs motherhood [3]. I greatly respected Kate Ellis (a local MP in South Australia) for publicly resigning and stating just how hard it is to be a committed mother and a woman with a full time career. The "career woman" is the principal type of woman represented by the media today and Kate's voice was very important to some women I spoke with who were relieved that somebody finally spoke out. We don't even know if sperm count will have a significant impact compared to population decline. I support the investigation but it's part of a much bigger issue. Is the issue principally chemicals? The data said Asia doesn't appear to be impacted and Asia has plenty of chemicals (and microwaves to respond to another poster). Is the media contributing to the problem by downplaying the significance of motherhood for women? Are we undermining our collective strength by pretending that every human being is equal rather than recognising and accepting we are different? Should we focus on opportunity rather than outcome when we talk about equality? Our population decline is a major issue and it apparently isn't linked to sperm count. Migration may be an answer to population decline, or, maybe it's a stop gap. Maybe, the answer can be found in our attitudes. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2141784-sperm-count-has-fallen-by-nearly-60-per-cent-in-richer-countries/amp/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2141784-sperm-count-has... [2] https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=25 https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=25 [3] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complete-without-kids/201108/more-women-are-choosing-career-over-motherhood-what-s-leading?amp https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/complete-without-kids/2...
- candles12345 9y agoCould this just be due to maturation in an environment that prohibits and goes against masculinity to large extent?
- remir 9y agoWe would have to define what is considered "masculinity", but I would say society definitely prohibit aggressivity, especially as more people are educated and can communicate better, more women entered the work force but also the working conditions today are more comfortable. It would be interesting to compare testosterone levels of inmates versus men of the "outside" population. Inmates live in a much more aggressive environment, and I bet that influence their testosterone level.
- Candles123 9y agoIsn't it more than just aggressivity? Isn't even the normal attraction and pursuit of attractive females now more or less negated/disincentivized or worse?
- remir 9y agoNot really. At least, that's not my perception. I would say, however, that the macho attitude is clearly out of date.
- artur_makly 9y agoits the drugs in our drinking water : http://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/health/03iht-snwater.1.5126782.html http://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/health/03iht-snwater.1....
- trhway 9y agoit is biologically connected and nicely correlates with the falling testosterone levels. In addition to environmental chemicals, testosterone levels are very significantly affected by behavioral/social factors. Given that society becoming more civil is at the same time a result and a cause of lowering testosterone levels, i think that despite temporary setbacks, like the recent success of the "Make the sperm count great again" campaign, the writing is on the wall here. Anyway, given the power of current and future technology, the count of 1 is enough, and may be even that would become too unnecessary big.
- DonHopkins 9y agoWhy not just compensate by ejaculating more often? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk
- jessaustin 9y agoIt's tempting to decry how we've disrupted the environment in which we live. (Apparently, since there are roughly 200 comments on that theme...) A more interesting potential cause of the sperm drop would be the human environment changing in a beneficial way. That is, it might be that sperm production is negatively correlated with other competitive traits. If that were the case, then we would expect the availability of modern medicine to drive a reduction in sperm count, as competitive-but-previously-infertile individuals are now better able to reproduce. After all humans are a K-selected species. Of course this is silly, because not enough time has passed for these effects to emerge in the human population. However, we do see these effects in livestock. Thoroughbred horses released into the wild would quickly die off, since female fertility has dropped precipitously in a breeding context of "if the mare runs fast enough, we'll spare no expense getting her pregnant".
- onecooldev24 9y agoI think feminism is responsible for this. A man's mental health can drastically affect his testosterone levels.