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Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?
- nerdponx 9y agoThis is approaching Star Trek levels of medicine. Congratulations to the team who discovered and pull this off, and of course my heart goes out to the family and their child. Drowning is very serious and very scary. Edit: somewhat unrelated since this girl fell into an unattended pool, but it's important to know the signs of drowning, which are not what you see in movies: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-to-spot-signs-of-a-child-drowning/ http://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-to-spot-signs-of-a-child-dro... Edit 2: I get that people have a right to downvote whatever they want, but seriously, did I say something wrong here?
- kyrra 9y agoUseful site to see what drowning looks like. http://spotthedrowningchild.com http://spotthedrowningchild.com
- overcast 9y agoI swear, there is a website for EVERYTHING.
- dna_polymerase 9y ago> “The startling regrowth of tissue in this case occurred because we were able to intervene early in a growing child, before long-term tissue degeneration. Although it’s impossible to conclude from this single case if the sequential application of normobaric oxygen then HBOT would be more effective than HBOT alone, in the absence of HBOT therapy, short duration, repetitive normobaric oxygen therapy may be an option until HBOT is available." It was done for the first time, we have no idea what really did the magic here, we can just assume. In any future medicine scenario I'd expect us to exactly know what we are doing and how it works. Yes medicine is improving but we really are in the dark ages still.
- gumby 9y ago> we have no idea what really did the magic here, we can just assume ...which is true of most of medicine. Most indications (e.g. diseases) are named after their symptoms rather than causes, and a lot of treatment is just creating / improving the environment in which the body can do its job. None of which should be taken as denigration of amazing achievements in the medical field!
- dna_polymerase 9y agoExactly. I recognise all those achievements, yet we still have to learn so much more.
- WhitneyLand 9y ago>we really are in the dark ages still No, we'd be in the dark ages if we were in still the dark ages. Our current level of progress would seem like science fiction or even magic as little as a century ago. I think I understand your point, that we have so much more to learn we're not even able to quantify what we don't know. But this is not some kind of endless quest. We're dealing with a machine in the end with finite complexity and eventually it will be understood fundamentally. I don't think I would be surprised if the most common diseases were eliminated in the next 100 to 200 years.
- gumby 9y ago>But this is not some kind of endless quest. We're dealing with a machine in the end with finite complexity and eventually it will be understood fundamentally. I'm guessing you don't work in the medical field (I have). First their's the emergent complexity of scale (after all the universe consists of a finite number of a small number of fundamental particles). Second, the human body (and all the pathogens etc) are object code highly optimized over billions of years. We understand almost nothing about how it all works. We can transcribe most of a human's genome but barely understand how even a tiny part of it works. > I don't think I would be surprised if the most common diseases were eliminated in the next 100 to 200 years. The most common causes of death have been pretty much eliminated in the wealthy world over the last 50 years. People still die, just of a wider variety of less common reasons. In the limiting case, each person will die of a unique cause.
- dmead 9y agowell, it took a few months. that thing on chekov's head took like 30 seconds.
- agumonkey 9y agoAlso I remember a video about counter intuitive signs of drowning. People except movie drowning with screamings and arm waving but average drowning is silent, like a kid on a floater flipping up and getting stuck upside down. Almost invisible if you don't watch for it.
- Sleeep 9y agoAlso be aware of "dry drowning," it's incredibly rare but worth knowing it exists and it's symptoms if you or anyone you are caring for has a near drowning episode. http://www.parents.com/kids/safety/outdoor/dry-drowning/ http://www.parents.com/kids/safety/outdoor/dry-drowning/ "Any child pulled from the pool needs medical attention," says Dr. Berchelmann. "At the very least, call the pediatrician."
- rayiner 9y agohttps://dockatevaccineblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/dry-drowning-which-is-not-a-thing https://dockatevaccineblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/18/dry-drow.... Our daughter was coughing after swimming in a river a few weeks ago, and my mother in law found the dry drowning stuff on the internet. I was like "dry drowning doesn't exist," but we called a nursing hotline which told us to go to the ER. The doctor checked out the kid, then asked us for the number of the nursing hotline so she could yell at them for sending parents to the ER over a condition that doesn't exist.
- Sleeep 9y agoThat page does not say dry drowning doesn't exist and does not contradict a single thing that was said in the link I posted. No shit swallowing water is not the same as aspirating [breathing] it and nobody said it was! "And I’m pretty sure everyone understands that a child who is down in the water, gets pulled out, and requires resuscitation needs immediate medical attention, even if they seem to recover." - No, they might not!!! And that's the point!!! The takeaway is: If someone has a serious near-drowning episode they should seek medical attention even if they appear fine. If someone exhibits symptoms listed after aspirating water, they should seek medical attention.
- tptacek 9y agoWait, he didn't say "this link says there's no such thing as dry drowning". He said he was told to take his daughter to the doctor over suspected dry drowning, actually did so, and the doctor got upset because there's no such thing as dry drowning. His doctor contradicted you, and the advice you gave at the end of your comment. Are you also a doctor?
- sillysaurus3 9y agoWe are not approaching Star Trek levels of medicine. In Star Trek, they can heal wounds by shining a light on them. They can erase and alter people's memory. They can scan for problems using a handheld device. They can cure blindness with a visor. We are nowhere near any of that. I know this doesn't really matter much, but if we're going to throw in hyperbole, it should at least be somewhat accurate. I think people are boo'ing anyone who brings up this point because it's such an incredible achievement. That's true, it is, and it's amazing that brain damage was reversed. But Star Trek is a useful, iconic yardstick for measuring our progress. Saying we're close to it discounts how much work we have left to do.
- taeric 9y agoI think you have to keep charity in mind on that compliment. It was meant as high praise for the medical achievement of curing someone. Not as reductionism to shining a light and magically curing something. More, that was pretty clear just in the comment. To that end, I'm curious how Star Trek is a useful iconic yardstick? My assertion would be that it is not. It is a common one. But there is nothing useful in it. Precisely because you have to cherry pick what parts you use and how you interpret them. For example, you interpreted it to refer to the method of curing. The comment was taking it for the level of the sickness that was cured. Both are valid places to look.
- sillysaurus3 9y agoI'm curious how Star Trek is a useful iconic yardstick? I suppose it's sentimentality. If you watch TNG (which is difficult nowadays -- it's so far out of time), the writers made some interesting observations. We now have the capability to ask the computer for information (Google), the ability to send each other messages (email), and we can verbally ask the computer questions (Siri). Touch interface (iPhone). These are landmark achievements, and they were all predicted by a show which ended in 1994, before the advent of the internet. The technology predictions have generally been on-point, and it seems like a useful metric for how far humanity can progress.
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- melling 9y agoNo, not really. You're making a hyperbolic statement. I've been watching Star Trek for 40 years. We're definitely still in the Dark Ages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMaGnpVaSGQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMaGnpVaSGQ
- nerdponx 9y agoThis was exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. I could easily imagine the Enterprise having some kind of special oxygen chamber that cures all sorts of maladies.
- toxican 9y agoJust to be pedantic, isn't referring to where we're at now as "the dark ages" equally hyperoblic?
- flamedoge 9y agoI am wishing that we knew more than just "apply more concentrated oxygen in this area" and see what happens.
- bryanrasmussen 9y agoyes, if these are the dark ages then what were the dark ages? The none-more dark ages?
- sp332 9y agoIf you've ever been in a dialysis clinic, you might see how someone from a culture that doesn't have them would view us as being in the dark ages.
- TallGuyShort 9y agoFor those who have no idea why a dialysis clinic makes us look like the Dark Ages - could you elaborate?
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- ilitirit 9y agoDoes drowning not imply death? Is there different definition for drowning (or death) in medicine? EDIT: I'm referring to the fact that the title says the girl drowned, not that she was at some point "drowning".
- nerdponx 9y agoI think the idea is that she was more or less dead for a while.
- whorleater 9y ago> The World Health Organization in 2005 defined drowning as "the process of experiencing respiratory impairment from submersion/immersion in liquid". from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning
- ilitirit 9y agoThat is the act of drowning though, or isn't it? eg. You can be drowning, but still be rescued. It's no big deal, but I've also thought that if someone drowned it implies they died.
- smichel17 9y agoDefine "died". It's not as easy as you might think, because as medical technology improves, the point of no return slips farther away. Per the article, this child's heart stopped beating for 2 hours.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ilitirit 9y agoI know, hence my original question. Although it says the child's heart stopped beating "on its own", which implies that it was still beating through "artificial" means.
- blauditore 9y agoFirst paragraph: > she spent 15 minutes submerged in a swimming pool This seems highly implausible, given she survived. Also, how would they know the moment she dropped in? Further down: > up to 15 minutes Ah ok. From what I know, brain damage starts occurring even after 2-3 minutes without air (for adults), so I suppose it was rather on the lower end. Does anybody know a bit more about this?
- Sleeep 9y agoChildren are known to be able to survive much longer without oxygen than adults. I'm not sure we know the exact reason for it though. Also people are known to be able to survive much longer submerged in cold water than warm water, perhaps due to the mammalian dive reflex - https://youtu.be/00RKh6NRMqc https://youtu.be/00RKh6NRMqc
- mcbits 9y agoThat's fascinating. I had heard people can survive longer submerged in cold water (like falling through ice), but didn't realize there was such a profound and easily induced effect on heart rate. Can be used therapeutically?
- davidiach 9y ago>Concluding, the researchers say that to their knowledge, this is the first reported case of gray matter loss and white matter atrophy (types of brain damage) reversal with any therapy and that treatment with oxygen should be considered in similar cases. “Such low-risk medical treatment may have a profound effect on recovery of function in similar patients who are neurologically devastated by drowning." I always believed that brain damage cannot be reversed. If version 1 means reversing it in toddlers, maybe version 10 will do miracles for many other people. Truly amazing and congratulations to the medical team!
- PetitPrince 9y agoNot to dampen your enthusiasm too much, but please note that infants are exceptionally good at producing new neurons compared to adults; their brain aren't fully developed after all.
- yread 9y agoI guess in a best case it can turn drowned adult's brain into living infant's brain.
- kaybe 9y agoInfants are also good at working around losing half a brain. If one loses it early enough the rest can develop to become a fully functional adult of normal intelligence, which is pretty amazing.
- Cshelton 9y agoYeah, we have a family friend whose child had half her brain removed at the age of 5. She if normal today. You would never know she only has half a brain. The surgery was performed by Dr. Ben Carson. I'll admit, not the best in politics, but one hell of a doctor.
- Pulcinella 9y agoYes. Also I imagine it's easy to "bulldoze and start over" when there are fewer life-worn paths to start with. Even if adults could regenerate large numbers of neurons like we do skin cells, those new neurons would have no idea how the old ones were connected.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- matt4077 9y ago> was in the 5 degree Celsius water for up to 15 minutes before being discovered. as my professor used to say: If you're going to drown, drown in almost-freezing freshwater.
- myth_drannon 9y agoyeah, she was in a cooling state which prevents brain damage. That's what they do to newborns who lacked oxygen during birth.
- brianwawok 9y agoI get the freezing, why the freshwater? Saltwater can be a bit colder before ice, so wouldn't it be better?
- zimpenfish 9y agoI would assume osmosis would probably come into play and perhaps cause additional cell damage and rupture?
- seszett 9y ago> Saltwater can be a bit colder before ice, so wouldn't it be better? I imagine it could actually be worse, as liquid saltwater below 0 would damage tissues very fast by freezing them. While fresh water is guaranteed to be above zero and therefore cannot damage tissues through freezing.
- ars 9y agoI think the salt is an issue with regard to inhaling the water, not about the temperature.
- matt4077 9y agoYes, you and zimpenfish are correct: getting salt in your lungs will almost certainly kill you, because it keeps drawing water from the blood through osmosis, and you'll continue to drown even after leaving the water.
- mrkrabo 9y agoI swear to God, from the three videos I've seen, the drowning kid was always black. Was that luck, or was that an actor?
- gambiting 9y agoDoes it matter in any way? Is it even a fact worth observing?
- graedus 9y agoThere is a stereotype that "black people can't swim". May be local to the US.
- simias 9y agoIt's not, it's a cultural thing, even in Africa. There are probably socio-economic reasons on top of that (swimming is kind of a luxury for many people). A colleague from Senegal (who didn't know how to swim himself) told me there were biological reasons as well (bone structure or something) but I'm highly dubious of that. I can believe that genetics can play a role in swimming proficiency but I doubt that it would prevent anybody from reaching very basic swimming skill levels. It's like saying that black people run faster than whites, looking at the olympics it appears to be true but that doesn't mean that white people fall over when we attempt a brisk stroll.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Insanity 9y agoI have never heard that here in Belgium. I also see black people in the pool quite frequently.
- cr1895 9y agoIn the Netherlands swimming instruction is compulsory for children. Is that also the case in Belgium? It's most certainly not the case in the US.
- TurboHaskal 9y agoHow is nationality relevant?
- Djvacto 9y agoI think it's just because the article title tries to convey that this happened in the U.S. It seems like a word flow thing.
- prawn 9y agoPublisher's audience is presumably American. Might seem more credible to that audience to make it relatable than pitch it as some far-off, unimagined, mystery toddler. Bit like how the death of one local kid gets as much coverage as the deaths of 50-100 foreign kids.
- timcamber 9y agoThis is amazing. Does anyone think the cold temperature of the water (5C) had anything to do with the feasibility of recovery? I don't necessarily have a reason to think it would be beneficial or not, just a thought that crossed my mind. I don't think it was mentioned in the article.
- myth_drannon 9y agoLooks like. Induced hypothermia is a common treatment - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia_therapy_for_neonatal_encephalopathy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia_therapy_for_neonat...
- ryandvm 9y agoIt wasn't mentioned in the article, but it's well documented that the survival rates for drowning, while dismally low, are much better in ice-cold water. Cold water lengthens the survival time by two mechanisms. It triggers the mammalian diving reflex, which halts breathing and conserves oxygen by slowing the heart rate and moving blood to vital parts of the body. This response is stronger in children than adults.(14) An opposing “cold shock response” may predominate, which leads to a faster heart rate with potential fatal rhythm disturbances(15). This response also causes immediate aspiration and swallowing of water, which quickly cools the heart and carotid arteries leading to “selective brain cooling”.(4) A reduction of brain temperature by 10° C decreases energy consumption by 50% and doubles the duration of time the brain can survive without oxygen.(16) This “therapeutic” hypothermia is accelerated by surface cooling in children and small adults with higher surface-area to body mass ratios and less subcutaneous fat. Panic by the victim (breath holding and vigorous attempts at escape) and protective gear worn in cold water work against these principles and may prevent therapeutic hypothermia. http://www.sitezed.com/an-analytical-look-at-survivable-submersion-times/ http://www.sitezed.com/an-analytical-look-at-survivable-subm...
- bluesroo 9y agoI remember reading this story from a couple years ago: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/03/union_county_boy_who_fell_into.html http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/03/union_cou... Apparently if a child is very young, the water is extremely cold, and everyone involved is extremely lucky then crazy stuff can happen. (Un?)Fortunately this isn't something that happens often enough that we can get a lot of data on how the body can recover from stuff like this.
- mechnesium 9y agoThis is really awesome. I am curious if this therapy would have been augmented by cognitive enhancers or nootropic substances such as piracetam. Piracetam in particular exhibits neuroprotective effects and improves cerebral vascular function. Several studies have found it to improve recovery following acute/transient ischemic stroke. It has actually been prescribed in several countries for this purpose. References: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972044 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22972044 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10338105 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10338105 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9412612 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9412612 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9316679 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9316679
- samfisher83 9y agoIt seems like they fed the body a lot of oxygen and the body healed itself. I think the body is pretty amazing at regeneration when we are young.
- madilonts 9y agoWell, this event happens enough that it might be worth studying the benefit of oxygen therapy, but I'd be very careful about the conclusions you draw from this. Maybe the oxygen had a substantial positive effect, or maybe the child would've recovered on her own. We really don't know, since there are other reports of children who have good neurological outcome despite terrible prognosis [1] [2]. I'm suspicious because of the unusual and/or stereotyped responses in the Medical Gas article and the linked YouTube videos: "doctors said she had 48 hours to live" (doctors don't say things like that) and "this demonstrates that we're inducing 8101 genes!" (ummm, OK...), etc. Also, be suspicious when something like this hits all the pseudo-news sites simultaneously. It reminds me of the articles that go something like "16 year-old cures cancer...DOCTORS HATE HIM!". Finally, I'm very happy this little girl has been given a second chance and hope for her continued recovery. However, don't forget that a toddler was left unsupervised and submerged in a pool for 15 minutes. Some people call that an accident; some people call it neglect. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3379747 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3379747 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=10665559 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=10665559
- kaybe 9y agoThe toddler fence proved to be non-toddler-proof. It can happen. It's not like the parents didn't try.
- astalwick 9y ago> However, don't forget that when a baby is left unsupervised and is submerged in a pool for 15 minutes, it's called neglect. Whoa there, slow down. Kids are quick. One moment, your three kids are happily watching Finding Dory on the tv, while you're making dinner. The next, only two are: the third has quietly wandered off. Unless you know the particulars, be very careful about tossing around words like 'neglect'.
- madilonts 9y agoYeah, I realized that would be a controversial statement, and modified it to be a little less so. However, I have a 2 and a 3 year-old. And I would consider it my fault if they wandered into a freezing pool.
- amykhar 9y agoWhat frustrates me is that in the United States, most insurance companies won't pay for hyperbaric oxygen treatment for traumatic brain injuries. My son, 26, was injured in a car accident last November. I would love to be able to get Oxygen therapy for him, but cannot.
- mabbo 9y agoThis is what's nice with a single payer health system. The same cost center has to either pay for disability related costs, or pay for treatments that would potentially end the disability related costs. It's a sane investment by the government here in Canada to make such choices. On the other hand, if your health insurance is through one system and your disability insurance through another, you have everyone optimizing for their personal local minimums rather than the global minimum.
- refurb 9y agoDoes Canada pay for hyperbaric oxygen therapy?
- mabbo 9y agoI have no idea. But if it's proven, available, and makes sense then generally it will be available with prescription for it.
- johnnyb9 9y agoThat's generally the case with US insurance companies as well, which leads me to believe this is more "experimental" and thus not a good example of the merits of a single payer system.
- dmix 9y agoFor treating brain damage? No. Because no doctor would sign off on that as a treatment. There's no scientific evidence that oxygen therapy helps with brain damage. Like most "alternative" medicines this one gets pushed hard as a solution for everything, regardless of evidence.
- sunwooz 9y agoIs there data out there about infants in a similar situation who didn't receive oxygen therapy? Is it possible that the developing child brain is what almost solely caused the improvements?
- slr555 9y agoDrowning is from a medical standpoint more complex than the simple notion I grew up with which was in essence "water fills your lungs so you can't breathe air". In fact drowning does not require filling the lungs completely. Even a volume of a few milliliters/Kilogram of body weight is enough to cause drowning. Additionally, drowning can cause serious damage to the lungs themselves even if the patient survives initial attempts at resuscitation. The alveoli (functional unit of the lungs) are lined with a surfactant that is critical to the exchange of air to the blood stream. Water can severely disrupt the surfactant and impair function not just while the water is present but until the body is able to restore the surfactant layer. Damage to the patient's lungs in this case seems to have been mild enough that the oxygen therapy could do it's job. Also notable is the 5 degree celsius water temperature (41 degrees Fahrenheit). This water temperature compared with the temperature of an olympic practice pool (~76 degrees Farenheit) is cool enough (though not as cold as many other reports) to trigger the so called "diving reflex" where stimulation of thermo-receptors in the skin triggers a vagal response that shunts blood away from the periphery and to vital organs. Minimal surfactant damage and the diving reflex (as well as the patient's age) seem likely to some degree to have facilitated successful treatment of the patient.
- quotha 9y agoHave you heard of dry drowning? It can happen after exposure to water: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_drowning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_drowning
- slr555 9y agoMy primary reference is Auerbach's Wilderness Medicine 7th Edition. It states that a consensus definition of "dry drowning" has been somewhat elusive. While laryngospasm may play a role in some drownings, opinion seems to lean now towards at least some aspiration of water on a consistent basis. The phenomenon is still the subject of debate.
- mabbo 9y agoI was worried this would be a case of neural plasticity, where the brain just rewires itself around the damage (which is a thing, and it's super cool). But then I read this part: > An MRI scan a month after the 40th HBOT session showed almost complete reversal of the brain damage initially recorded. Researchers believe the oxygen therapy, coupled with Eden having the developing brain of a child, had activated genes that promote cell survival and reduce inflammation—allowing the brain to recover. We can reverse brain damage. Wow.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago> We can reverse brain damage. Wow I'm going to tell you that I have never been more glad to read Hacker News first thing in the morning. I am sleeping in my mother's ICU room @ UIUC after she's suffered a subarachnoid hemorrhage causing substantial brain damage. This is coming with me to the ICU team huddle this morning. Side note: if you're in neurological field or specialize in neurogenesis, please get in touch with me
- danso 9y agoBest wishes to you and your mother.
- toomuchtodo 9y agoThank you. This is the hardest, most painful week of my life.
- dumbneurologist 9y agoI obviously don't know anything regarding your mom's condition, but SAH (a form of hemorrhagic stroke) by itself can have very complete recovery. The real question is how much ischemic stroke there was with it. If the answer is "none", then, if she survives (scary caveat, obviously), then her recovery could be very very good. Having said that, ischemic injury is common (as is herniation, which is similarly permanent and very very dangerous). I hope she comes through it ok.
- zeveb 9y agoEgad the JavaScript on that page is terrible! Every time I scroll to read the first paragraph, it hides the video or something, causing it to scroll away.
- rhinoceraptor 9y agoIt would interesting to know if better results could be obtained using even more oxygen, in combination a ketogenic diet/exogenous ketones (which would negate the risk oxygen seizures).
- msie 9y agoThis is cool but will other people try it or will it be another forgotten technique?
- dumbneurologist 9y agoDisclaimer: I am a neurologist The enthusiastic replies on this thread are understandable, but disappointing to see: we all need to be less credulous regarding the lay science press, and especially the lay medical press. I would love nothing more than to have this kind of therapy be a reality for my patients. However, I am deeply skeptical of this report. Why? Because - hyperbaric oxygen therapy has a big industry of quackery behind it[1][2] - oxygen is a standard part of medical care and can just as easily be harmful as helpful - because there is just no way in hell that oxygen is going to reverse cell death. - this is in newsweek, and not a peer-reviewed journal. And if there was no cell death, then the recovery is almost inevitable. Some posters are skeptical because 15 minutes is impossible. On the contrary: the key point is the temperature. The article says the water was 4 degrees C. That is cold enough that you can recover fully. In fact, the most amazing recovery is also one of the best-documented: with a 66-minute submersion in Utah that was followed by complete recovery[3] (this is a far more interesting article than the original post - it was in 1988, and utilized extracorporeal rewarming). This observation was used to pursue hypothermia in other causes of anoxic injury, which is clinically used today. I'm sure the 66-minute case also got oxygen during the recovery, but to say that it was due to oxygen (which is standard of care) rather than the temperature is silly. Sorry to be a wet blanket, but this article is just clickbait junk. 1. https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm364687.htm https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm364687.h... 2. https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/HBOT/hm01.html https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/HBOT/hm01... 3. http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/26/science/the-doctor-s-world-ingenuity-and-a-miraculous-revival.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/1988/07/26/science/the-doctor-s-world...
- enraged_camel 9y agoYeah, generally speaking, when it comes to scientific reporting, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. The fact that the top commenter (as of this writing) sees this as "Star Trek levels of medicine" should clue everyone in.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago> The fact that the top commenter (as of this writing) sees this as "Star Trek levels of medicine" should clue everyone in. Clue in on what exactly? That the current top commenter, and others - including myself - got baited? Hard to blame them, IMO. That's the effect when popular press is literally lying to people. :/. (Also that's why I usually read HN comments even before the original article - in case there's an expert who debunks the story, which happens pretty often.)
- sehugg 9y agoCan anyone knowledgeable about medicine explain this article further? For example, I'm wondering why they waited 55 days to give normobaric oxygen therapy. Wouldn't it be given immediately for a patient with brain injury?
- dmix 9y agoMost likely the 55 day wait happened because the parents sought out alternative treatments afterwards. As it is very unlikely the original doctors suggested this treatment... there is no supporting evidence that HBOT helps with traumatic brain injury. Also as other's have pointed out in this thread, HBOT is an industry full of quackery with grand claims of curing cancer, treating brain injury, and cerebral palsy with little evidence. So most likely the parents approached a university research group, or a research group was referred to them, and they did the study with the child at a later date following the initial treatment of the injury.
- wvh 9y ago[...] and two hours where her heart did not beat on its own. Impressive. I wonder if there are ways to force this level of regenesis in adult brains with less generative power and neuroplasticity. I don't think there's anything sweeter to a human being than "here's your child back".
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- flamedoge 9y agoDrowned U.S. Toddler. U.S. is unnecessary here.
- Supremacist 9y agoThis is why America hates you science. Why do you have to always rain on our parade? We just want to believe in gods and magic, is that so much to ask for?
- dang 9y agoCommenting like this is not allowed here and will eventually get your main account banned as well, so please don't. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813211 and marked it off-topic.
- f4rker 9y agoTypical internet : - amazing story! - top comment rains all over the parade I've seen it so many times. I sometimes think the top comments are salty scientist who are mad that others in their field are getting attention. This is a somewhat common thing with scientist.
- komali2 9y agoCome on, whoever you are. You're seriously going to drop words like infarction, thalami, FLAIR hyper intensity, massive cortical infarction on us? What's the point? Maybe 1% of the people on this public forum will have even the slightest clue what you're talking about. Luckily someone else has posted a dictionary underneath you, but I mean, surely you're used to speaking to laymen? You couldn't have just said "tissue death" instead of "infarction?"
- volkadav 9y agoyou're on a site named "hacker news" and you're complaining about someone using technical jargon? if only there were a site adept at providing information about search terms: https://www.google.com/ https://www.google.com/
- komali2 9y agoThere's a difference between technical jargon and obfuscation. If 80% of the people reading your post (audience considered) need to google 20% of the words, when equivalent words exist that are more common, it is bad writing.
- dang 9y agoWould you please not post like this to HN? You may have a point about jargon but it's lost in a bucket of bile. That's exactly how we shouldn't be reacting to people who come to our community to share knowledge with us. Especially because the #1 rule of commenting in this forum is "Be civil": https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813572 and marked it off-topic.
- komali2 9y agoI fail to see how I'm not being civil, and am happy to receive feedback on a better way to have expressed frustration at what I see as excessive jargon.
- Karunamon 9y agoIt is also completely irrelevant to the correctness or incorrectness of the argument, which is often what gets missed. Authority is a heuristic, nothing more. The evaluation of P -> Q happens independently of the speaker. If you're trying to refute P -> Q by mentioning an attribute of the speaker, you're necessarily answering some other question entirely, while making an excuse to ignore the original question. You can say that someone making such an argument is more likely to be incorrect based on their beliefs, but that's still an untested hypothesis (more bluntly, a rationalization) until you actually sit down, stop making excuses, and verify it yourself. Excuses aren't logic. You can say you don't have time, and that's valid, you can say you don't want to, and that's valid, but don't say you're doing logic. You're coming up with reasons to avoid doing logic.
- aeorgnoieang 9y agoIt's not clear what you mean by "logic", but weighing the evidence of a statement conditional on the person that made it is not inherently illogical. Yes, of course untrustworthy people can make truthful claims! But you would still be wise to discount their claims (sometimes, under some conditions). Evaluating arguments is, like everything else, subject to opportunity costs, so discussing the credibility of people making 'extreme' claims is certainly valuable.
- Karunamon 9y ago>Evaluating arguments is, like everything else, subject to opportunity costs But when you're on an internet board spending more time shouting down an argument for its source when it would take equal or less time to just figure it out - that is an excuse. It's also terribly non-conducive to a discussion. "This guy says P -> Q, but he's not an expert on the matter of P, so I'll ignore anything he has to say on the matter" is not a logical argument. Correctness or incorrectness of the statement is being willfully ignored in this case.
- aeorgnoieang 9y ago> But when you're on an internet board spending more time shouting down an argument for its source when it would take equal or less time to just figure it out - that is an excuse. You're right but the condition you mention doesn't apply here. This discussion is relevant to claims about therapies for reversing brain damage in people that (nearly) drowned. 'Just figuring it out' seems pretty difficult. It's perfectly reasonable to discuss the credibility of people and there's no reason why that can't be conducive to discussion. > ... is not a logical argument. Correctness or incorrectness of the statement is being willfully ignored in this case. This is a little confusing and doesn't seem to match very closely to this specific subject. But whether or not dismissing someone's claim is a logical argument is just begging the question – why are you assuming that it's right or fair or proper for every claim or argument to be refuted logically? Are you literally demanding that everyone either (a) refute an argument logically; or (b) refrain from commenting at all?
- blahdblah 9y agoThese two comments prove you're an asshole. Therefore you are wrong.
- sctb 9y agoPlease don't create accounts just to violate the guidelines with—we ban them, and then the main account if it continues. We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14814687 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14814687 and marked it off-topic.
- blahdblah 9y agoSorry as this has been a long time coming for me. The air of arrogance of many of the most popular contributors such as tptacek (though sometimes (s)he, like others, is completely on point and adds to the discussion) has been causing a great amount of angst for quite a while. I don't like being increasingly disappointed in so many on a site I regard highly. Hopefully now that I've released a pressure valve, I can return to not interacting and just learning from those willing to share facts and rational arguments rather than assuming it matters how far they, in particular, give on a certain subject. Thanks for the warning.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- wfunction 9y ago> Disclaimer: I am a neurologist > {informed comments} A little off-topic but I see this so often I feel like I should mention this at some point: I think you mean "disclosure" and not "disclaimer" (and most likely it's best if both are omitted and you just mention you're a neurologist). "Disclaimer" means refusing to accept responsibility, which doesn't make sense when it's a preface to what looks like a comment based on expertise. If, on the other hand, you're really trying to say that you're refusing any responsibility for what you say, then the disclaimer should probably be something more along the lines of "I'm NOT {a qualified lawyer/neurosurgeon/whatever}", and not "I AM {a qualified whatever}".
- Mz 9y agoEh, my read on it was sort of "Sorry for being such a wet blanket, BUT..." It is kind of a polite apology that indicates "I know people here are excited, but as someone in the know, I don't think it is exciting. And I don't really mean to be a party pooper, but y'all need to calm down, because this is not that exciting. Seriously." Lots of talented people get used to being hated on for being more knowledgeable than other people. It often fosters verbal ticks to cope with the social and emotional BS.
- dang 9y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813211 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14813211 and marked it off-topic.
- wcr3 9y ago?