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Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.).

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of discussion you should be able to get a raise that brings your pay even above the competing offers. Treat your current as one of the options you can make that day; make your employer fight for you every 6-12 months. And remember it's not personal, it's just business. Your employer would let you go and throw you under the bus if it made business sense. tldr; don't get too emotionally attached to job; that's when they get you.

calafrax 9y ago
This attitude is horrible just like the Forbes article. This situation is only happening because of bubble cash and a lot of inexperienced leadership with too much money on their hands. Once the bubble pops you will see all of these people with a resumes full of 6-12 month stints and outrageous salary expectations working at Starbucks (if they are lucky) and everyone who puts in years for reasonable salaries still employed at profitable companies. Enjoy it while it lasts.
- drchickensalad 9y ago
  To play devil's advocate, what makes them unemployable in that scenario? Is it just that employers are so picky as to commonly choose people who stay at a company longer over all other factors? Also saying they have to work at Starbucks implies they can't get ANY software job, which I'm not sure I see the reason for.
  - calafrax 9y ago
    Not unemployable but less likely to be employed. Long term employment is very important to increasing productivity as a software engineer. The first 6 months is just learning existing systems, so from 6 months to 12 months doubling productivity is normal. As you work longer you build more infrastructure that supports future productivity gains so from 12 months to 24 months you should be able to double your productivity again. After 24 months your productivity is so much higher than newer employees that you can continually invest time in developing tools and infrastructure to enhance your productivity so your productivity continues to grow. When there is a recession there will be unemployment for software engineers so a certain percentage will not be able to find work. These job hoppers are the lowest skilled since they have never learned how to develop their productivity over the long term and they will be demanding the highest salaries based on their past experience so they are the least likely to be employed.
scaryclam 9y ago
I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. And TBH, if your company has to make cutbacks in the future and you've shown you're willing to up and leave at the drop of a hat, you're name's likely to get further up the redundancy list than you'd probably like.
- robert_foss 9y ago
  I can empathize with a response from a line manager like that. But from the point of view of an employee, if you go into a salary discussion with no recourse to getting a flat no, you're not doing much more than voicing the fact that you are discontent. It seems to me that you, scarylam, would be a good line manager to work for. But the reality is that most would not fight for you. Especially not when the two options being weighed are spending more money or having a somewhat dissatisfied employee, and maybe losing them later. If the employee has some form of recourse the decision is very different. Spending more money or losing a part of your team now.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  > I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. Sounds like it's still good advice if you won't fight for your employees to stay. The alternative to being upfront with your manager is just leaving when you think you can do better - many managers would prefer not to have the surprise. > you're name's likely to get further up the redundancy list Not my experience. In some cases, the employees able to leave easily are the better, or underpaid ones.
- boomboomsubban 9y ago
  >In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. This doesn't agree with the research here, and your first statement doesn't agree with your second. If you value your team, they shouldn't end up unhappy with their salary, and they shouldn't be thrown under the bus for exploring what they're worth outside the company. The tamest threat to fire them reinforces the point.
pbhjpbhj 9y ago
How does this work with equal pay legislation though - if you're male then you can't get a pay increase above a female because if that's discovered the company is in for a heap of pain??
- thehardsphere 9y ago
  The men and women at any given company who do the same job are probably being paid similar amounts of money without any regard to "equal pay legislation," because the gender pay gap goes away when you control for the choices that people make in developing their human capital. So it's not relevant and nobody should be blaming women for not being able to give you a raise. If someone in management at your company tells you that, they are lying to you and you should change jobs.
  - lostboys67 9y ago
    Lol I don't mean to sound mean but this is not how the world works
    - thehardsphere 9y ago
      Actually, it is how the world works. If there was really a gender pay gap for women who are doing the exact same work as men with the exact same experience as men, then it would be trivial for employers to reduce their costs by only hiring women. Yet, nobody ever does this.
      - EdSharkey 9y ago
        This thread suddenly became gold. Don't you dare die on me, thread!
        cage433 9y ago
        the gender pay gap was just another myth created by the Chinese....
        9y ago
dustinmoris 9y ago
Couldn't agree more. Basically your current employer should really pay you what the salary you would get somewhere else plus an additional markup for the internal knowledge which you have already acquired (you should put a value on that as well). Also don't believe any line manager or anyone else here posting that this is not a good strategy, because remember, every line manager is only an employee as well and has a line manager as well and they want to get paid a fair salary as well, so they either will do the same or they will have 100% understanding for it and if they don't then you know that the company has no interest in paying you a fair market value for your contribution. This is the free market, companies love to play the game when it comes to having people let go (like SoundCloud), when it comes to taxes and when it comes to profit distribution and growth, so they should also expect to play the same game when it comes to negotiating employee salaries.
- joyofdata 9y ago
  As the line manager is employee herself, the strategy only works, if she is applying it herself, too. Otherwise her salary might not be competitive and you as her sub-employee are risking the most severe of all offenses - asking for more than what your supervisor makes.
  - laumars 9y ago
    In technical fields it's not uncommon for supervisors to earn less than those whose authority otherwise ranks below them. It is basically just a question of market forces. If a particular position is sufficiently specialised when the supervisor role is more generalised then you might expect to pay the specialty more than the generalised role - even though the generalised role is more senior.
  - mojomark 9y ago
    > as her sub-employee are risking the most severe of all offenses - asking for more than what your supervisor makes. This is a flawed philosophy. As a manager I have had a few critical pulling in higher salaries than my own. If you are a superviser who is artificially holding an employee back from reaching their full potential (seeking compensation that matches the demand person's talent in the open market) than you are doing your company (yourself) and that employee a major disservice. Just because you are a manager doesn't mean you can do what your employee does (and vice versa). Artificially holding a sub-employee back is a sign of fear for one's own ineptitude.
johnnyfaehell 9y ago
I think this is considered bad advice. Nearly every HR article about this subject states that doing this will on average results in being let go after a year.
- usegolang 9y ago
  As a general rule, you shouldn't threaten to do anything you aren't willing to do. So you shouldn't threaten to take another job offer unless you are willing to do it. If you value staying at your existing job more than a raise then you are right, you shouldn't do this. But if you are okay with walking and talking about offer them this can be beneficial. I have even heard managers state that certain raises are not possible without another offer that they can bring to HR/whoever to prove that they need to pay someone more to retain them. Doesn't mean the manager necessarily wants to replace you, but it could be a sign of oddities within a large Corp.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > I think this is considered bad advice. I agree, but for a different reason. Not only would this behaviour annoy your employer, but it shows that your employer doesn't care to pay you market rates or what you're worth. So why do you keep working for people who don't pay you what you're worth? Accept the outside offer and move on.
  - BurningFrog 9y ago
    > it shows that your employer doesn't care to pay you market rates or what you're worth. As an employer, it's hard to know how someone's market value fluctuates. The only way to really know is for the employee to do a job search.
    - kogepathic 9y ago
      > As an employer, it's hard to know how someone's market value fluctuates. The only way to really know is for the employee to do a job search. There are several ways to figure out the market rate for a position: 1. Post an opening and see what the salary expectations are of applicants 2. Talk to recruiters and see what similar positions are paying 3. Use your network of people at other companies to find out what similar positions pay 4. Look at salary data for your industry and region I agree you probably won't get a precise answer from any of the above, but it should at least give you an idea which end of the spectrum you fall. You can also talk to the employee and try to get an idea whether they're happy with the position and compensation. My personal preference is for this to happen multiple times per year, instead of just at an annual review.
PixelB 9y ago
Great, but that most certainly does not work at all companies. The last company I worked for unequivocally treated their non-management employees like garbage. The company basically had the same management for 10 years prior, with a few "loyal" employees promoted to manager along the way. By "loyal" I mean that they were willing to sell anyone out to advance their own careers. If the company even caught wind you were looking elsewhere, your life would become a living hell. Get ready for extra hours (Salaried, no extra pay), weekend work, Holiday work, getting your vacation time denied because they are "too busy", etc. Pretty hard to find a job when your employer is making you physically ill from stress. In the meantime, the moment they catch wind of you looking elsewhere they start bringing in new candidates. Easy to fill those Bachelors-level positions after all, lots of recent college grads willing to not have a life in lieu of work, and they will probably want less money than you too! I saw entire teams of 10+ people replaced within a year, then again, having to retrain their own replacements. The company even outsourced our work to Malaysia and we were warned not to tell our clients about it or we could face termination. The only way to survive in corporate America nowadays is to be a cutthroat scumbag, no thanks.
- dustinmoris 9y ago
  Are you talking about developers? Currently the market is in favour of employees, as there is more demand for them than supply, at least that is my feeling based on constantly being harassed by head hunters trying to desperately fill positions and not even having luck by recruiting people from all around the world. If a company can afford to treat its employees like "garbage" then they will and that is the exact point that when the market is in favour of employees, they shouldn't be shy to treat their employer with the same scrutiny. Demand every penny you can get and if they are not willing to give you what you can get elsewhere, then be prepared to just go, because as you said very well, if the company would have that advantage they would do it as well.
  - PixelB 9y ago
    Pharmaceutical research.
  - Tomis02 9y ago
jaypaulynice 9y ago
Never stay at a job once you've shown your manager you have other offers. Use the current job to up your salary in the next job. Again never stay...you'll be gone in time for sure.
- justadeveloper2 9y ago
  That's good advice. Chances are if you are thinking about moving on it is not just the pay that's a problem. I have seen this situation play out so many times. People who don't move around aren't being paid what they're worth and are effectively leaving money on the table. The Forbes article only scratches at the issues involved in the tech biz and each point made could have a full article written about it.
  - le-mark 9y ago
    I had the pleasure of arguing for a team members promotion once (ie a raise effetively). The domain our team of 5 worked in was pretty challenging (heavy algorithmic stuff). I spent a year trying to train up my team, and although they improved, I still felt like I had to do the hard stuff myself. With the exception of one developer. For example if a project was particularly hairy or the time frame was too short, it was either me or him doing it. And I couldn't give him all the hard stuff so I ended doing a lot more coding than I had time for. I went to my boss and said, X is carrying my team, he does more than any two other developers combined. He needs a raise, I can't lose him! And he got it. If you got someone who's good, that's what it boils down, either play ball or lose them.
BurningFrog 9y ago
> Your employer would let you go and throw you under the bus if it made business sense. I agree that you shouldn't get too attached to your employer, but this is way too cynical. Employers are people like everyone else, with individual personalities, and aren't typically soulless profit maximizers.
_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If the employee is only motivated by money, he will be gone rather sooner than later as there is always a higher offer around. 2. If you give in once to this, the employee will come back 6 months later with demanding the next pay rise. 3. You might have done something wrong in the past. An employee who can envision herself in the company in some years in a different role with personal development and fair pay rises (see 4.) does not leave. 4. You might also have no transparent pay rise process in place and clear guide lines why people have which salary. You might also have a wide band of salaries, which will bite you sooner or later. 5. Your salaries might also be too low and not working in the local market. This often happens when startups grow (or employee markets change) and salaries are not adjusted properly. Earlier employees - or employees before a VC round - often have too low salaries in this case. Fight for a budget rise to get every salary up in line again. 6. This might also happen if you agree to too low salaries when hiring. This often happens when you hire women, but also happens otherwise. You should always pay what the employee is worth, not what he is demanding (often too low). Don't feel happy if you hire below budget, this is a mistake. As a manager the easiest pay rise you can get for your team is during hiring.
- DrJaws 9y ago
  1. money is what people work for. Unless you are doing something truly great for the humanity there is not much more than money or great work conditions google style to motivate people. 2. Of course, because he wants to be paid like the market is paying people in his position, not to be the only idiot with a worthless salary. Because, you know, they are asking you to offer them the same the competence is able to give. What you want is an underpaid worker who never ask for a raise and have his mouth shut up for everything, hell you would take a slave if you could
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  To me if I can get a better offer (ie over 10% salary increase) that's just a signal that the current employer is trying to take advantage of me. I'm with you in that I'd never go back and negotiate, I'd just leave. Especially early in your career, there is 0 reason to stick around with someone that won't pay you what you're worth. Underpaying is going to directly correlate with retention problems, and limited career growth so it's best to get out early and often.
devy 9y ago
Your advice is in direct contradiction to common wisdom on career path building and offer negotiation because: 1. Even though you may be able to get a 50% more offer somewhere else, your value to your current employer (note not perspective employer) is mostly determined by your contribution to the team and comparable peers at your team/position in the company. Your market value was already considered when you first offered/joined the company, after that it's usually not a major factor to determine how you worth. 2. Your many short term tenure employments and the tendencies to job hopping is a STRONG bad sign for the long term health of your career development. And it deters future employees. It may be fine to be a junior engineer to hop jobs frequently BUT it's really hard to move up the ladder to management. More importantly, it shows that you have no loyalty to any single past employers and will not willing to invest in a long term career development track to rise up (with a few exceptions). For example, I was told anecdotally that BridgeWater Associates would not consider anyone who hops more than 3 jobs in a ten year period. 3. You rarely accrue long vacation where most companies offer that based on tenure, again with a few exceptions (companies with unlimited vacation days policies). 4. You have to build up personal relationships with a new team every other year (assuming you job hop less than 2 years in every job.) Trust me, your personal relationships with your close teammates is a big factor in job satisfaction. Meeting new people new team every other year could be cumbersome and tiring. This matters if you are aiming for a long term career development. 5. Less than two years of employment might not be long enough to really build up your values. According to Jesse Watson[1], as a software engineer, your value really lies in "the synthesis of programming skill and deep context in the business problem domain, in one skull." And it's unfortunate that less than 2 years does not strengthen that synthesis one skill but rather makes your more vulnerable to be replaced by outsourcing as a commodity monkey coder. I used to work for TheLadders.com first job out of college and gained a lot of insights because of that. And I am very thankful for the valuable advices my former colleagues gave me. Although I job hopped a lot when I was a junior engineer but not anymore given all the reasons above. So next time when you are at the crossroad for a switch, make sure you truly understand the consequences of pros and cons. And be sure to ask yourself, is my career development ready and worthy for short term 50% bump? [1]: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hard-thing-software-development-jesse-watson https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hard-thing-software-developme...
mv4 9y ago
As an employer, I've never countered when given a "choice" like that. If they do make a counteroffer and you stay, you can be sure they are now looking for a replacement.
varelse 9y ago
True. And although I wouldn't do this every 6-12 months myself, I do interview a couple times a year just to keep my interviewing skills sharp because you're right, everyone is an expendable at-will employee. I only escalate if I find out I could be making 25% more or greater by leaving for a desirable gig elsewhere. At that point, yep, I'm underpaid. Otherwise, I suspect you are overoptimizing one axis of employment potentially at the expense of the rest. That said, I've never been at a tech company where people have been promoted every 6 months. At best, every year, and more like biannually or worse. Finally, don't play games like this if you're not a superachiever. You will be shown the door. And while you can fool some of the employers all of the time, once you've hopped enough times, it starts being used against you in hiring. But I agree that one shouldn't get attached to any job, it could go away in an instant.
jotjotzzz 9y ago
"Get offers from other companies" mean you are doing a job search and interviewing to get a job in that company. Once they offer you a job, you get that offer letter. Most people do this when they are already fed up with their current employer and are ready to move on. So this advice means -- actively search (best time to get a job is when you have a job). Pitfalls with this advice: your current employer is not dubious. They may know you are actively searching. In addition, once you have an offer and you bring this up -- your current employer will "try" to match that offer to try to keep you. Why? Often times this is the default to avoid disruption and often times you are well-liked and they actually do want to keep you. They may also try to "keep you temporarily" -- until they can replace you. Once you have said "you have an offer" it acts as a flag to you. Which can also mean you may be the first to go if anything happens such as layoffs. Thread carefully.
- varelse 9y ago
  You should interview defensively at least a couple times a year IMO. It is good to know your market value. HR knows your market value. When your pay and your market value go wildly out of line, it's time to step up. This happens disturbingly often with long-term risk-averse employees. That said, if you can't stomach risk, then don't do this. But try to understand that by not taking risks now, you're taking a huge long-term risk on your financial future.
- johnward 9y ago
  "Once you have said "you have an offer" it acts as a flag that at you." I've found this line of thinking to be false but so many employees are afraid of this. If it does happen you just leave again, big deal.
  - jotjotzzz 9y ago
    Well, your manager and your boss's manager may KNOW that you had a job offer and is "wanting to leave the company". In addition HR flags you as well, perhaps they make notes about it, especially when they have to counter the offer. This is not really false thinking, this is how it works! Whether they blatantly flag you or they have it in their head, it acts as a "flag". If you are very well-liked and indispensable, it may be a good thing, since they will do what they can to make you happy moving forward. If you are not on the good side, you have to now understand that your manager and your manager's manager are informed that you had the intention of leaving.
ASalazarMX 9y ago
This strategy is likely to make your employer keep you until they can find a replacement at their convenience.
deleted 9y ago
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everdev 9y ago
I owned a web company and anytime an employee told me they had another job offer they were considering, I either let them go or started recruiting. I never wanted to keep someone on let alone give them a raise if they were considering leaving. If they came to me and wanted a change in their job or salary I'd work with them, but as soon as you considered my business "one of your options" instead of where you enjoyed working, it was time to move on. This was a small company though. I'm sure larger companies where mid-level management is in charge of hiring, the strategy of taking competing offers to your boss works well.
- s73ver 9y ago
  If they're going out and getting outside offers, that means they don't believe they can come to you and ask for a salary adjustment.
iLemming 9y ago
Every single time I tried that I end up leaving. Once I got offered a bump but it felt too little, too late.
foobiekr 9y ago
What you are describing has typically been called "the shakedown" by management at companies for which I have worked when the employee shows up with competing offers. When the employee shows up and resigns, it's called a "dive and catch." These are perceived very differently by the people involved even though the basics are the same except for the trappings. What I find interesting about the article is that an average time-in-place below about two years and absent a few longer stints basically takes a normal-ish resume and turns those short gigs into red flags The really short work time thing shows lots of potential issues. Employee has never "shipped" and lived with the consequences. Employee flees after making a mess, either personal or professional. Employee has a problem with chasing the new shiny. Employee makes terrible decisions about fit and chooses gigs that aren't a fit for bad, ephemeral, etc. reasons and then when those cease to apply (financial stress alleviated, no longer a dog friendly office, etc.) employee bails. Another variant of poor fit is maybe employee tends toward emotion (desperation - I NEED A JOB NOW) and takes something they never would have taken otherwise. Maybe employee picks fights with other employees. Employee doesn't know how to bond ... the list goes on. Even simple pattern matching: The people everyone has known who are frequent short-time-in-place hoppers tend to be flakes so maybe employee is just a flake. Someone below has a pretty good comment - "You get about 30 years to make as much money as possible and that's it." At least in technology, that is very true; less so in medicine or dentistry for example, and naturally capital doesn't really benefit from employees understanding that. It's so much more obvious to me 20Y in how true that is. One thing I think is interesting: the average genXer that I know has never, ever thought strategically about their career and has spent the last 15-20y assuming things would follow a sort of generic life sequence; the sort of "a career is something that happens along the way" mindset. In contrast, while I personally may not like the stereotypical millennial aspirational trappings, at least some of them are viewing career as something they should be piloting instead of being along for the ride; not just waiting for a layoff or firing. At least they give the appearance of being better about it. But then again, so much of their appearances are curated fictions so who can tell.
Mc_Big_G 9y ago
All the dbag responses saying that they'd take this as blackmail is exactly why you shouldn't do it. Either take the new offer or don't. If you want a raise, tell your boss why you deserve one and then ask for it or don't. Even if you ask in advance and nothing happens, then you show other offers, you're still screwed. You will get pushed out and treated badly by the dbags who are underpaying you anyway. Just move on...or don't.
laughfactory 9y ago
Bad idea, in my opinion. This comes across as manipulative and underhanded. My personal policy is that if the companies I work for are not able to compensate me commensurate with my value then I 1) have a conversation with the appropriate people about my dissatisfaction with my pay and the value I provide, and 2) begin looking for another job. If they value me, and respond to my forthrightness then we'll figure out something workable for us both. If not, I find another job and leave. Alternatively, you can talk to your boss ahead of time (say 6-12 months) and specify what you want and ask what it would take to achieve the goal (promotion, raise, etc.). Then you execute your agreed upon plan. If, at the end of that period, they fail to uphold the agreement then look for another job and leave. Your recommended approach is akin to being in an unsatisfying relationship, and, instead of talking to your spouse/partner/etc. you go find someone else then go back to your spouse/partner/etc. and say, well, I'm going to leave you unless you do X, Y, Z. Hah! For most of us that approach would not work out very well, and for good reason. It's not the way reasonable, mature, people of integrity behave. Plus, I don't want to work for anyone who doesn't actively recognize and reward my value, and who requires (yes, there are places like this) you to go through the whole job hunting process and bring them an offer letter to give you a raise. F that. Ideally, the employer recognizes the value I provide and proactively rewards that value. Second best is employers who will give real raises (10%+) when an employee points out how much value they provide. Third best is real, 10%+, raises annually. The current status quo of 2-5% increases amounts to little more than COL, and is utterly offensive. That's not a performance based increase, that's simply a retainer. As an employee I'm acutely aware, as year #2 comes to a close, that if I don't get out there and find something better (better title, better pay, better benefits) then, in terms of opportunity cost, I'm losing money. Though my current position my prove to be the exception to that rule. We shall see. And yes, I run all the numbers on the total value of my compensation package and any improvements/increases which have transpired over the previous years. But getting other offers and then using them to force your employers hand is just childish, in my opinion.
nul_byte 9y ago
Awful advice to try and pull that one. Most managers will shake your hand right there or they are going to have in mind that you were previously looking for work and considering another offer, so are not a candidate they can build plans around. If hard times hit and companies have hiring freeze, followed by a head count reduction, you will be one of the first out of the door.

calafrax 9y ago

This attitude is horrible just like the Forbes article. This situation is only happening because of bubble cash and a lot of inexperienced leadership with too much money on their hands. Once the bubble pops you will see all of these people with a resumes full of 6-12 month stints and outrageous salary expectations working at Starbucks (if they are lucky) and everyone who puts in years for reasonable salaries still employed at profitable companies. Enjoy it while it lasts.

drchickensalad 9y ago
To play devil's advocate, what makes them unemployable in that scenario? Is it just that employers are so picky as to commonly choose people who stay at a company longer over all other factors? Also saying they have to work at Starbucks implies they can't get ANY software job, which I'm not sure I see the reason for.
- calafrax 9y ago
  Not unemployable but less likely to be employed. Long term employment is very important to increasing productivity as a software engineer. The first 6 months is just learning existing systems, so from 6 months to 12 months doubling productivity is normal. As you work longer you build more infrastructure that supports future productivity gains so from 12 months to 24 months you should be able to double your productivity again. After 24 months your productivity is so much higher than newer employees that you can continually invest time in developing tools and infrastructure to enhance your productivity so your productivity continues to grow. When there is a recession there will be unemployment for software engineers so a certain percentage will not be able to find work. These job hoppers are the lowest skilled since they have never learned how to develop their productivity over the long term and they will be demanding the highest salaries based on their past experience so they are the least likely to be employed.

scaryclam 9y ago

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. And TBH, if your company has to make cutbacks in the future and you've shown you're willing to up and leave at the drop of a hat, you're name's likely to get further up the redundancy list than you'd probably like.

robert_foss 9y ago
I can empathize with a response from a line manager like that. But from the point of view of an employee, if you go into a salary discussion with no recourse to getting a flat no, you're not doing much more than voicing the fact that you are discontent. It seems to me that you, scarylam, would be a good line manager to work for. But the reality is that most would not fight for you. Especially not when the two options being weighed are spending more money or having a somewhat dissatisfied employee, and maybe losing them later. If the employee has some form of recourse the decision is very different. Spending more money or losing a part of your team now.
Chris2048 9y ago
> I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. Sounds like it's still good advice if you won't fight for your employees to stay. The alternative to being upfront with your manager is just leaving when you think you can do better - many managers would prefer not to have the surprise. > you're name's likely to get further up the redundancy list Not my experience. In some cases, the employees able to leave easily are the better, or underpaid ones.
boomboomsubban 9y ago
>In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. This doesn't agree with the research here, and your first statement doesn't agree with your second. If you value your team, they shouldn't end up unhappy with their salary, and they shouldn't be thrown under the bus for exploring what they're worth outside the company. The tamest threat to fire them reinforces the point.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago

How does this work with equal pay legislation though - if you're male then you can't get a pay increase above a female because if that's discovered the company is in for a heap of pain??

thehardsphere 9y ago
The men and women at any given company who do the same job are probably being paid similar amounts of money without any regard to "equal pay legislation," because the gender pay gap goes away when you control for the choices that people make in developing their human capital. So it's not relevant and nobody should be blaming women for not being able to give you a raise. If someone in management at your company tells you that, they are lying to you and you should change jobs.
- lostboys67 9y ago
  Lol I don't mean to sound mean but this is not how the world works
  - thehardsphere 9y ago
    Actually, it is how the world works. If there was really a gender pay gap for women who are doing the exact same work as men with the exact same experience as men, then it would be trivial for employers to reduce their costs by only hiring women. Yet, nobody ever does this.
    - EdSharkey 9y ago
      This thread suddenly became gold. Don't you dare die on me, thread!
      - cage433 9y ago
        the gender pay gap was just another myth created by the Chinese....
      - 9y ago

dustinmoris 9y ago

Couldn't agree more. Basically your current employer should really pay you what the salary you would get somewhere else plus an additional markup for the internal knowledge which you have already acquired (you should put a value on that as well). Also don't believe any line manager or anyone else here posting that this is not a good strategy, because remember, every line manager is only an employee as well and has a line manager as well and they want to get paid a fair salary as well, so they either will do the same or they will have 100% understanding for it and if they don't then you know that the company has no interest in paying you a fair market value for your contribution. This is the free market, companies love to play the game when it comes to having people let go (like SoundCloud), when it comes to taxes and when it comes to profit distribution and growth, so they should also expect to play the same game when it comes to negotiating employee salaries.

joyofdata 9y ago
As the line manager is employee herself, the strategy only works, if she is applying it herself, too. Otherwise her salary might not be competitive and you as her sub-employee are risking the most severe of all offenses - asking for more than what your supervisor makes.
- laumars 9y ago
  In technical fields it's not uncommon for supervisors to earn less than those whose authority otherwise ranks below them. It is basically just a question of market forces. If a particular position is sufficiently specialised when the supervisor role is more generalised then you might expect to pay the specialty more than the generalised role - even though the generalised role is more senior.
- mojomark 9y ago
  > as her sub-employee are risking the most severe of all offenses - asking for more than what your supervisor makes. This is a flawed philosophy. As a manager I have had a few critical pulling in higher salaries than my own. If you are a superviser who is artificially holding an employee back from reaching their full potential (seeking compensation that matches the demand person's talent in the open market) than you are doing your company (yourself) and that employee a major disservice. Just because you are a manager doesn't mean you can do what your employee does (and vice versa). Artificially holding a sub-employee back is a sign of fear for one's own ineptitude.

johnnyfaehell 9y ago

I think this is considered bad advice. Nearly every HR article about this subject states that doing this will on average results in being let go after a year.

usegolang 9y ago
As a general rule, you shouldn't threaten to do anything you aren't willing to do. So you shouldn't threaten to take another job offer unless you are willing to do it. If you value staying at your existing job more than a raise then you are right, you shouldn't do this. But if you are okay with walking and talking about offer them this can be beneficial. I have even heard managers state that certain raises are not possible without another offer that they can bring to HR/whoever to prove that they need to pay someone more to retain them. Doesn't mean the manager necessarily wants to replace you, but it could be a sign of oddities within a large Corp.
kogepathic 9y ago
> I think this is considered bad advice. I agree, but for a different reason. Not only would this behaviour annoy your employer, but it shows that your employer doesn't care to pay you market rates or what you're worth. So why do you keep working for people who don't pay you what you're worth? Accept the outside offer and move on.
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  > it shows that your employer doesn't care to pay you market rates or what you're worth. As an employer, it's hard to know how someone's market value fluctuates. The only way to really know is for the employee to do a job search.
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > As an employer, it's hard to know how someone's market value fluctuates. The only way to really know is for the employee to do a job search. There are several ways to figure out the market rate for a position: 1. Post an opening and see what the salary expectations are of applicants 2. Talk to recruiters and see what similar positions are paying 3. Use your network of people at other companies to find out what similar positions pay 4. Look at salary data for your industry and region I agree you probably won't get a precise answer from any of the above, but it should at least give you an idea which end of the spectrum you fall. You can also talk to the employee and try to get an idea whether they're happy with the position and compensation. My personal preference is for this to happen multiple times per year, instead of just at an annual review.

PixelB 9y ago

Great, but that most certainly does not work at all companies. The last company I worked for unequivocally treated their non-management employees like garbage. The company basically had the same management for 10 years prior, with a few "loyal" employees promoted to manager along the way. By "loyal" I mean that they were willing to sell anyone out to advance their own careers. If the company even caught wind you were looking elsewhere, your life would become a living hell. Get ready for extra hours (Salaried, no extra pay), weekend work, Holiday work, getting your vacation time denied because they are "too busy", etc. Pretty hard to find a job when your employer is making you physically ill from stress. In the meantime, the moment they catch wind of you looking elsewhere they start bringing in new candidates. Easy to fill those Bachelors-level positions after all, lots of recent college grads willing to not have a life in lieu of work, and they will probably want less money than you too! I saw entire teams of 10+ people replaced within a year, then again, having to retrain their own replacements. The company even outsourced our work to Malaysia and we were warned not to tell our clients about it or we could face termination. The only way to survive in corporate America nowadays is to be a cutthroat scumbag, no thanks.

dustinmoris 9y ago
Are you talking about developers? Currently the market is in favour of employees, as there is more demand for them than supply, at least that is my feeling based on constantly being harassed by head hunters trying to desperately fill positions and not even having luck by recruiting people from all around the world. If a company can afford to treat its employees like "garbage" then they will and that is the exact point that when the market is in favour of employees, they shouldn't be shy to treat their employer with the same scrutiny. Demand every penny you can get and if they are not willing to give you what you can get elsewhere, then be prepared to just go, because as you said very well, if the company would have that advantage they would do it as well.
- PixelB 9y ago
  Pharmaceutical research.
- Tomis02 9y ago

jaypaulynice 9y ago

Never stay at a job once you've shown your manager you have other offers. Use the current job to up your salary in the next job. Again never stay...you'll be gone in time for sure.

justadeveloper2 9y ago
That's good advice. Chances are if you are thinking about moving on it is not just the pay that's a problem. I have seen this situation play out so many times. People who don't move around aren't being paid what they're worth and are effectively leaving money on the table. The Forbes article only scratches at the issues involved in the tech biz and each point made could have a full article written about it.
- le-mark 9y ago
  I had the pleasure of arguing for a team members promotion once (ie a raise effetively). The domain our team of 5 worked in was pretty challenging (heavy algorithmic stuff). I spent a year trying to train up my team, and although they improved, I still felt like I had to do the hard stuff myself. With the exception of one developer. For example if a project was particularly hairy or the time frame was too short, it was either me or him doing it. And I couldn't give him all the hard stuff so I ended doing a lot more coding than I had time for. I went to my boss and said, X is carrying my team, he does more than any two other developers combined. He needs a raise, I can't lose him! And he got it. If you got someone who's good, that's what it boils down, either play ball or lose them.

BurningFrog 9y ago

> Your employer would let you go and throw you under the bus if it made business sense. I agree that you shouldn't get too attached to your employer, but this is way too cynical. Employers are people like everyone else, with individual personalities, and aren't typically soulless profit maximizers.

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If the employee is only motivated by money, he will be gone rather sooner than later as there is always a higher offer around. 2. If you give in once to this, the employee will come back 6 months later with demanding the next pay rise. 3. You might have done something wrong in the past. An employee who can envision herself in the company in some years in a different role with personal development and fair pay rises (see 4.) does not leave. 4. You might also have no transparent pay rise process in place and clear guide lines why people have which salary. You might also have a wide band of salaries, which will bite you sooner or later. 5. Your salaries might also be too low and not working in the local market. This often happens when startups grow (or employee markets change) and salaries are not adjusted properly. Earlier employees - or employees before a VC round - often have too low salaries in this case. Fight for a budget rise to get every salary up in line again. 6. This might also happen if you agree to too low salaries when hiring. This often happens when you hire women, but also happens otherwise. You should always pay what the employee is worth, not what he is demanding (often too low). Don't feel happy if you hire below budget, this is a mistake. As a manager the easiest pay rise you can get for your team is during hiring.

DrJaws 9y ago
1. money is what people work for. Unless you are doing something truly great for the humanity there is not much more than money or great work conditions google style to motivate people. 2. Of course, because he wants to be paid like the market is paying people in his position, not to be the only idiot with a worthless salary. Because, you know, they are asking you to offer them the same the competence is able to give. What you want is an underpaid worker who never ask for a raise and have his mouth shut up for everything, hell you would take a slave if you could
lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
To me if I can get a better offer (ie over 10% salary increase) that's just a signal that the current employer is trying to take advantage of me. I'm with you in that I'd never go back and negotiate, I'd just leave. Especially early in your career, there is 0 reason to stick around with someone that won't pay you what you're worth. Underpaying is going to directly correlate with retention problems, and limited career growth so it's best to get out early and often.

devy 9y ago

Your advice is in direct contradiction to common wisdom on career path building and offer negotiation because: 1. Even though you may be able to get a 50% more offer somewhere else, your value to your current employer (note not perspective employer) is mostly determined by your contribution to the team and comparable peers at your team/position in the company. Your market value was already considered when you first offered/joined the company, after that it's usually not a major factor to determine how you worth. 2. Your many short term tenure employments and the tendencies to job hopping is a STRONG bad sign for the long term health of your career development. And it deters future employees. It may be fine to be a junior engineer to hop jobs frequently BUT it's really hard to move up the ladder to management. More importantly, it shows that you have no loyalty to any single past employers and will not willing to invest in a long term career development track to rise up (with a few exceptions). For example, I was told anecdotally that BridgeWater Associates would not consider anyone who hops more than 3 jobs in a ten year period. 3. You rarely accrue long vacation where most companies offer that based on tenure, again with a few exceptions (companies with unlimited vacation days policies). 4. You have to build up personal relationships with a new team every other year (assuming you job hop less than 2 years in every job.) Trust me, your personal relationships with your close teammates is a big factor in job satisfaction. Meeting new people new team every other year could be cumbersome and tiring. This matters if you are aiming for a long term career development. 5. Less than two years of employment might not be long enough to really build up your values. According to Jesse Watson[1], as a software engineer, your value really lies in "the synthesis of programming skill and deep context in the business problem domain, in one skull." And it's unfortunate that less than 2 years does not strengthen that synthesis one skill but rather makes your more vulnerable to be replaced by outsourcing as a commodity monkey coder. I used to work for TheLadders.com first job out of college and gained a lot of insights because of that. And I am very thankful for the valuable advices my former colleagues gave me. Although I job hopped a lot when I was a junior engineer but not anymore given all the reasons above. So next time when you are at the crossroad for a switch, make sure you truly understand the consequences of pros and cons. And be sure to ask yourself, is my career development ready and worthy for short term 50% bump? [1]: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hard-thing-software-development-jesse-watson https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hard-thing-software-developme...

mv4 9y ago

As an employer, I've never countered when given a "choice" like that. If they do make a counteroffer and you stay, you can be sure they are now looking for a replacement.

varelse 9y ago

True. And although I wouldn't do this every 6-12 months myself, I do interview a couple times a year just to keep my interviewing skills sharp because you're right, everyone is an expendable at-will employee. I only escalate if I find out I could be making 25% more or greater by leaving for a desirable gig elsewhere. At that point, yep, I'm underpaid. Otherwise, I suspect you are overoptimizing one axis of employment potentially at the expense of the rest. That said, I've never been at a tech company where people have been promoted every 6 months. At best, every year, and more like biannually or worse. Finally, don't play games like this if you're not a superachiever. You will be shown the door. And while you can fool some of the employers all of the time, once you've hopped enough times, it starts being used against you in hiring. But I agree that one shouldn't get attached to any job, it could go away in an instant.

jotjotzzz 9y ago

"Get offers from other companies" mean you are doing a job search and interviewing to get a job in that company. Once they offer you a job, you get that offer letter. Most people do this when they are already fed up with their current employer and are ready to move on. So this advice means -- actively search (best time to get a job is when you have a job). Pitfalls with this advice: your current employer is not dubious. They may know you are actively searching. In addition, once you have an offer and you bring this up -- your current employer will "try" to match that offer to try to keep you. Why? Often times this is the default to avoid disruption and often times you are well-liked and they actually do want to keep you. They may also try to "keep you temporarily" -- until they can replace you. Once you have said "you have an offer" it acts as a flag to you. Which can also mean you may be the first to go if anything happens such as layoffs. Thread carefully.

varelse 9y ago
You should interview defensively at least a couple times a year IMO. It is good to know your market value. HR knows your market value. When your pay and your market value go wildly out of line, it's time to step up. This happens disturbingly often with long-term risk-averse employees. That said, if you can't stomach risk, then don't do this. But try to understand that by not taking risks now, you're taking a huge long-term risk on your financial future.
johnward 9y ago
"Once you have said "you have an offer" it acts as a flag that at you." I've found this line of thinking to be false but so many employees are afraid of this. If it does happen you just leave again, big deal.
- jotjotzzz 9y ago
  Well, your manager and your boss's manager may KNOW that you had a job offer and is "wanting to leave the company". In addition HR flags you as well, perhaps they make notes about it, especially when they have to counter the offer. This is not really false thinking, this is how it works! Whether they blatantly flag you or they have it in their head, it acts as a "flag". If you are very well-liked and indispensable, it may be a good thing, since they will do what they can to make you happy moving forward. If you are not on the good side, you have to now understand that your manager and your manager's manager are informed that you had the intention of leaving.

ASalazarMX 9y ago

This strategy is likely to make your employer keep you until they can find a replacement at their convenience.

deleted 9y ago

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everdev 9y ago

I owned a web company and anytime an employee told me they had another job offer they were considering, I either let them go or started recruiting. I never wanted to keep someone on let alone give them a raise if they were considering leaving. If they came to me and wanted a change in their job or salary I'd work with them, but as soon as you considered my business "one of your options" instead of where you enjoyed working, it was time to move on. This was a small company though. I'm sure larger companies where mid-level management is in charge of hiring, the strategy of taking competing offers to your boss works well.

s73ver 9y ago
If they're going out and getting outside offers, that means they don't believe they can come to you and ask for a salary adjustment.

iLemming 9y ago

Every single time I tried that I end up leaving. Once I got offered a bump but it felt too little, too late.

foobiekr 9y ago

What you are describing has typically been called "the shakedown" by management at companies for which I have worked when the employee shows up with competing offers. When the employee shows up and resigns, it's called a "dive and catch." These are perceived very differently by the people involved even though the basics are the same except for the trappings. What I find interesting about the article is that an average time-in-place below about two years and absent a few longer stints basically takes a normal-ish resume and turns those short gigs into red flags The really short work time thing shows lots of potential issues. Employee has never "shipped" and lived with the consequences. Employee flees after making a mess, either personal or professional. Employee has a problem with chasing the new shiny. Employee makes terrible decisions about fit and chooses gigs that aren't a fit for bad, ephemeral, etc. reasons and then when those cease to apply (financial stress alleviated, no longer a dog friendly office, etc.) employee bails. Another variant of poor fit is maybe employee tends toward emotion (desperation - I NEED A JOB NOW) and takes something they never would have taken otherwise. Maybe employee picks fights with other employees. Employee doesn't know how to bond ... the list goes on. Even simple pattern matching: The people everyone has known who are frequent short-time-in-place hoppers tend to be flakes so maybe employee is just a flake. Someone below has a pretty good comment - "You get about 30 years to make as much money as possible and that's it." At least in technology, that is very true; less so in medicine or dentistry for example, and naturally capital doesn't really benefit from employees understanding that. It's so much more obvious to me 20Y in how true that is. One thing I think is interesting: the average genXer that I know has never, ever thought strategically about their career and has spent the last 15-20y assuming things would follow a sort of generic life sequence; the sort of "a career is something that happens along the way" mindset. In contrast, while I personally may not like the stereotypical millennial aspirational trappings, at least some of them are viewing career as something they should be piloting instead of being along for the ride; not just waiting for a layoff or firing. At least they give the appearance of being better about it. But then again, so much of their appearances are curated fictions so who can tell.

Mc_Big_G 9y ago

All the dbag responses saying that they'd take this as blackmail is exactly why you shouldn't do it. Either take the new offer or don't. If you want a raise, tell your boss why you deserve one and then ask for it or don't. Even if you ask in advance and nothing happens, then you show other offers, you're still screwed. You will get pushed out and treated badly by the dbags who are underpaying you anyway. Just move on...or don't.

laughfactory 9y ago

Bad idea, in my opinion. This comes across as manipulative and underhanded. My personal policy is that if the companies I work for are not able to compensate me commensurate with my value then I 1) have a conversation with the appropriate people about my dissatisfaction with my pay and the value I provide, and 2) begin looking for another job. If they value me, and respond to my forthrightness then we'll figure out something workable for us both. If not, I find another job and leave. Alternatively, you can talk to your boss ahead of time (say 6-12 months) and specify what you want and ask what it would take to achieve the goal (promotion, raise, etc.). Then you execute your agreed upon plan. If, at the end of that period, they fail to uphold the agreement then look for another job and leave. Your recommended approach is akin to being in an unsatisfying relationship, and, instead of talking to your spouse/partner/etc. you go find someone else then go back to your spouse/partner/etc. and say, well, I'm going to leave you unless you do X, Y, Z. Hah! For most of us that approach would not work out very well, and for good reason. It's not the way reasonable, mature, people of integrity behave. Plus, I don't want to work for anyone who doesn't actively recognize and reward my value, and who requires (yes, there are places like this) you to go through the whole job hunting process and bring them an offer letter to give you a raise. F that. Ideally, the employer recognizes the value I provide and proactively rewards that value. Second best is employers who will give real raises (10%+) when an employee points out how much value they provide. Third best is real, 10%+, raises annually. The current status quo of 2-5% increases amounts to little more than COL, and is utterly offensive. That's not a performance based increase, that's simply a retainer. As an employee I'm acutely aware, as year #2 comes to a close, that if I don't get out there and find something better (better title, better pay, better benefits) then, in terms of opportunity cost, I'm losing money. Though my current position my prove to be the exception to that rule. We shall see. And yes, I run all the numbers on the total value of my compensation package and any improvements/increases which have transpired over the previous years. But getting other offers and then using them to force your employers hand is just childish, in my opinion.

nul_byte 9y ago

Awful advice to try and pull that one. Most managers will shake your hand right there or they are going to have in mind that you were previously looking for work and considering another offer, so are not a candidate they can build plans around. If hard times hit and companies have hiring freeze, followed by a head count reduction, you will be one of the first out of the door.