21 ms·
Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen
- belovedeagle 9y agoI wonder - did they take steps to replenish the cave's oxygen? If not, it's useless for the next person... I guess this is kind of silly and naive, but it's what I would do.
- patmcguire 9y agoIt should eventually get back to equilibrium from gas interchange with the water, but I have no idea of what the time frame would be for that.
- ajross 9y agoThe air in the cave will come to equilibrium with the partial pressures of gasses in the water, which itself is in equilibrium with the atmosphere. It's not as closed as system as you think, even though it probably wouldn't outgas oxygen as fast as the divers were metabolizing it.
- mulmen 9y agoThis is a really interesting point. How big would a cave need to be in order to support the oxygen requirements of a single human? I assume surface area of the water is the important factor?
- ajross 9y agoAlso the level of circulation of the water connecting it to the ocean/aquifer. Diffusion is a ton slower than convection.
- manarth 9y agoAs it was already air-filled, it almost certainly has a natural opening to the atmosphere, and will eventually reach normal gas levels (hard to say without more information whether that's a few hours or a few days, but very unlikely to be more than a few weeks). As an aside, the issue described is not a low level of O2, but rather a high level of CO2 (which is typical for an air-space in a wet cave). Removing CO2 from the airspace is a radically different problem from adding O2 to the airspace.
- pavel_lishin 9y agoI'm a little surprised there aren't caches of emergency supplies for situations like these.
- manarth 9y agoCave-divers are expected (and taught) to carry reserve gas supplies with them. From the description, they had reserve supplies - enough reserves to search for an hour - but failed to recover their guideline within that time. The issue was that they lost their guide-line leading to the exit, rather than running out of gas. In such a scenario, no amount of reserve caches could really solve that problem.
- benzofuran 9y agoSome divers carry a few odds and ends in their buttpacks for longer duration dives, but you never factor this sort of stay into a plan, and don't want to take unnecessary equipment or kit in with you. Where there's been a lot of sump diving (submerged passages between larger air-filled chambers), there are a number of kits like these in some areas, but they're usually left by the expedition and taken back out with them.
- gregorymichael 9y agoDid a sensory deprivation tank for the first time a few weeks ago. An hour was tough. Hard to imagine 60, with the added doubt of "you may never get out of here."
- pmoriarty 9y agoI find "sensory deprivation tanks" (aka "floatation tanks") to be rather relaxing, and would have no problem spending many hours inside. Now, being in a cold cave with a dangerous CO2/O2 ratio, exhausted, suffering from hypothermia and fearing for my life.. that doesn't sound like so much fun.
- curtis 9y agoCave diving is one of those things that I am happy to only experience vicariously through the stories of others.
- guyzero 9y agoI couldn't make it very far into the article. I enjoy open-water diving but cave diving induces way too much claustrophobia.
- narrator 9y agoOr you can watch Youtube vids like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone.
- javiramos 9y agoNot claustrophobic safe.
- omnimus 9y agoWhy would anyone do that?!
- dotancohen 9y ago> This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone. Off topic, but here is a viable contender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFMHjDqHL_Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFMHjDqHL_Y There are videos of higher towers, but I believe that this video is the most thoroughly annotated one.
- tysonrdm 9y agoThere should be a law against bringing in and leaving nylon ropes in the cave. If this continues, all the caves are going to be filled with nylons ropes left by previous divers. Do we want these caves, too, to eventually become a garbage dumping ground?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- manarth 9y agoThere are conventions in the cave-diving community on how lines are left/maintained/removed, which prevent caves from being strewn with abandoned lines. Much like the IT community adopt coding-standards for a project, the cave-diving community has line-placement standards. Whilst the standards vary from location to location (and are in general localised to the requirements of the location's environment), they are generally well "policed" and exceptions are addressed.
- benzofuran 9y agoThe nylon lines are only a safety system - there's typically a mainline and then only branches off of it. The only time multiple lines are used are at the entrance (the mainline is usually placed 50-100m back to prevent untrained divers from finding it accidentally) or where there are jumps, and in both cases the temporary connections are retrieved when the team of divers exits. In some higher traffic caves these lines are replaced regularly, however with most caves it's an every couple of year type situation and done by volunteer teams. As a cave is explored & mapped, line is tied on to the end from the explorer's reels - adding multiple knots and failure points. Once there's sufficient traffic or need usually caretakers will go through and attach more resilient line (usually a spectra or dyneema line) and take out the original line, only leaving the exploration markers (name, date, expedition, etc). These teams also find more permanent attachment points or add them (using silt anchors and sometimes bolts) so that the lines aren't secured to cave features wherever possible. Adding & removing lines on each dive would actually cause more damage to cave features than keeping a permanent or semi-permanent line in place, and there'd be a much higher risk of line movement and entrapment as the connections would be fewer and further between.
- benzofuran 9y agoWhen you're learning to cave dive, one of the first things that you learn is that you may very well die in there. Most of the training focuses on systems, skills repetition, and understanding and using redundant systems - folks getting into cave diving typically are already extremely experienced divers who if anything need only some minor skill tweaks - most cave instructors will not take on students who don't already have significant open water technical diving experience (multiple tanks, mixed gas, rebreathers, decompression, wreck, etc). A running joke is that the lost line drill (where you're placed intentionally off of the guide line and have to find it without a mask/light/visibility) is the most punctual cave task you'll ever do - you have the rest of your life to get it right. Here's a few good books on it (non-affiliate links): Caverns Measureless to Man by Sheck Exley (the father of cave diving): https://www.amazon.com/Caverns-Measureless-Man-Sheck-Exley/dp/0939748258 https://www.amazon.com/Caverns-Measureless-Man-Sheck-Exley/d... The Darkness Beckons by Martyn Farr: https://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Beckons-History-Development-Diving/dp/1910240745/ref=zg_bsnr_290109_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q1DCCDZ0MMB4N2SCBYBQ https://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Beckons-History-Development-... Beyond the Deep by Bill Stone (the Tony Stark of cave diving): https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deep-Deadly-Descent-Treacherous/dp/0446527092 https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Deep-Deadly-Descent-Treacherou... The Cenotes of the Riviera Maya by Steve Gerrard (patron saint / mapper of Yucatan caves): https://www.amazon.com/Cenotes-Riviera-Maya-2016/dp/1682134016/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= https://www.amazon.com/Cenotes-Riviera-Maya-2016/dp/16821340... This is more of a map and explanatory notes but gives great insight into the complexity of it. Currently there are 2 systems that almost all cenotes are part of in the Yucatan, and there's some really interesting work going on trying to link the two. Current work is going on at about 180m depth through a number of rooms at the back of "The Pit", and there are multi-day expeditions going on trying to find the linkage.
- erikcw 9y agoI'd also like to add "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdury - https://www.amazon.com/Last-Dive-Father-Descent-Oceans/dp/0060932597 https://www.amazon.com/Last-Dive-Father-Descent-Oceans/dp/00...
- agumonkey 9y agoI have a bad book hoarding habit yet these one will probably never reach my house. :)
- biggc 9y ago> He realised the water at the surface of the lake was drinkable Can someone explain this phenomena? How can the water in a sea-cave become potable?
- Markoff 9y agopretty sure it was inland cave, so not sure why the water should not be drinkable and how is it surprising they mention the caves where flooded 60000 years ago, which is long time ago to replace all the original sea water with fresh water from other sources or maybe it's condensated water from walls of cave creating layer on top, though not sure how would that work
- NegativeLatency 9y agoFresh water is less dense than salt water, so perhaps fresh water seeped through rocks from above and didn't mix with the sea water.
- titanomachy 9y agoI'm not familiar with Mallorca's hydrogeology, but I've done some cenote (cavern) diving in Mexico's Yucatan peninsula. The caves are inland, but sea water infiltrates through the porous and channel-filled rock. The water nearer the surface is rainwater. The narrow region where freshwater and seawater intermingle is called the halocline, it creates a cool optical distortion which reminds me of the "oil paint" filter in photoshop.
- stingraycharles 9y agoThis probably is a stupid question, but wouldn't the salty seawater be lighter than the rain water, and thus be at the surface ?
- cr1895 9y agoSalty water is quite literally more dense than fresh water. Average seawater is 1025 kg/m^3, pure water is nominally 1000 kg/m^3. Somewhat related video: dense brine that doesn't freeze in Arctic sea ice sinks rapidly through liquid seawater below https://youtu.be/WyWn1XJ9kTE https://youtu.be/WyWn1XJ9kTE
- acdanger 9y agoSee also this story if you want to make sure you don't really want to go diving in a subterranean cave: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36097300 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36097300
- fit2rule 9y agoI'm quite surprised at the detail that the rescuers attempted to drill into the cave from above in order to provide supplies .. is anyone familiar with the depth of the cave pocket? This seems like a surprising choice to make given the logistics - but I guess a safer one, in the end .. assuming one has a drill system available and the depth is not too great.
- avh02 9y agoto follow up on depth (not just from a difficulty point of view), if care isn't taken - i'd assume that once there's a pathway to the surface, the water pressure would push the air out and drown him. I also assume they're experts who know what they're doing, but at the same time, I guess there'd be too many unknown unless there was some established air-tight drilling technique specifically for this type of scenario?
- fit2rule 9y agoTo be honest, its a fascinating scenario which leaves many questions. I'm going to have to ask my geology friends if there is such a thing as an air-tight drilling technique that would not have resulted in the scenario you describe - google-fu doesn't seem to produce results - but I imagine there might be some sort of air-tight sleeve that can be used at the head of the shaft, which may as well be rather thin diameter for this scenario, after all .. What I'm curious about is whether these cave-divers used this procedure, because they were prepared for it in some capacity. I mean, they managed to start - and then abandon - the idea, in a few hours.
- benzofuran 9y agoA lot of us cave divers work in other areas as well - I'm an engineer in Oil & Gas - a lot of other folks I know are either scientists or engineers. This sort of activity appeals to us for some reason. You described a blowout preventer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowout_preventer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowout_preventer) by the way :) Many cave systems are quite shallow, and while I don't know the details on the one there in Mallorca, by the size of what's described it was probably above the water table even though there likely wasn't a free-air connection to the surface.
- j9461701 9y agoI might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either groups of people care to comment?
- seanc 9y agoI am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.
- rrhyne 9y agoAs a father, I agree completely, and think you shouldn't have been down voted, so here's an upvote.
- Fuckdang2 9y agoAs a non cunt, I agree about your cuntery
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- balls187 9y agoFor a soldier, it's their duty. For the diver in the story, it was his hobby. He'd been doing it for 24 years, so his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive--thus I don't blame him at all.
- Chris2048 9y ago> For a soldier, it's their duty They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier". > his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive What does this mean?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Cuntnugget 9y agoI found the cunt who got that 8th place trophy
- Cuntnugget 9y agoOh you spoiled little snowflake you. What is it like inside the mind of a cunt?
- Cuntnugget 9y agoYeah you are a cunt
- Cuntnugget 9y agoYeah you are a cunt
- ajarmst 9y agoReminded me of the very sad story of Peter Verhulsel: http://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/11/12/Scuba-diver-lost-in-cave-dies-waiting-for-rescue/7366469083600/ http://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/11/12/Scuba-diver-lost-in-c...
- ajarmst 9y agoI'm a qualified advanced recreational diver, and most diving by properly-trained (not 'quick tutorial at the dock' like a lot of tourists get) divers has a very manageable level of risk, even at altitude or under ice. Cave diving and mixture diving (esp. in overhead environments like the Andrea Doria) is well beyond my personal acceptable-risk horizon, but most of the people who go there are extremely experienced, well-equipped and cogniscant of the risks and how to mitigate them. (Those that aren't tend to die or learn they really shouldn't be there very fast). I would never call it safe, but thise that go there (or, say, K2) aren't being foolhardy.
- stordoff 9y agoWhat level of tuition should tourist divers be getting? I've only been diving a few times, and we were given (what felt like) a reasonable amount of safety briefings before even travelling to the dive site. IIRC the deepest we went was 12-13m (third dive with the same crew; first two were sub-10m), and I was under the impression (thought I'm __far__ from being an expert!) that it was difficult to cause any major problems at those depths unless you do it all the way the wrong way (i.e. fast/direct ascent to surface).
- ajarmst 9y agoFrom 12m, all you'd need to do is hold your breath and surface rapidly to give yourself a potentially fatal lung injury. Note that this is exactly what you would reflexively want to do in nearly any emergency or if you just got claustrophobic in the mask and reg (common) or had a sudden abyss panic (not uncommon) or even a trivial even like having your mask kicked off by a buddy. Recreational training should include a half dozen or so pool dives to practice skills. This gives you the training and confidence to cleanly handle minor emergencies, followed by three or four supervised training dives to test those skills in a real environment, and to give you a comfort level that gelps prevent panicy action later. Those first few dives to shallow depth are actually among the most dangerous you ever do, because you're a novice in an environment where your reflexes will kill you.
- surgeryres 9y agoNo one has mentioned the risk subjected upon the rescue team to come get him. So there's that.
- benzofuran 9y agoRescue teams for caves are usually regional volunteer groups - and usually it's body recovery. They go into it knowing what they're likely to find - very rarely (if ever) are they first responders or typical public service employees, at least as part of their job function
- A_Person 9y agoI'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive in a system comprising a complex maze of 8kms of underwater tunnels. Some are large, and would fit several divers across, but some are small, and you can barely squeeze through. The only entry to and exit from this system is a small pond, about 6 feet across and 4 feet deep, just big enough for one person to get in at a time. Then you scrunch yourself up, and drop down through a slot to enter the system. We'd generally go about 700m into this system, making up to 13 seperate navigational decisions (left? right? straight ahead?) which we have to reverse precisely to get back out at the end. This is all completely underwater, there's no air anywhere except for two air pockets hundreds of meters apart. As I like to say, in cave diving there is no UP – there is only OUT! It all sounds pretty dangerous, right? Wrong. NAVIGATION. The whole system is set up with fixed lines, each of which has a numbered marker every 50m or so. Before each dive, we consult the map, and plan exactly where we're going to go. I commit that plan to memory, write it down on a wrist slate, and also in a notebook which I take underwater. All three of us do this independently. Underwater, when we come to a junction, each of us checks the direction to go, then marks the exit direction with a personal marker. If anyone makes a mistake, for example, turns in the wrong direction, or forgets to leave a personal marker, the other two pick that up immediately. On the way back, when we get to each junction, each of us checks that it's the junction we expected, and we can see our personal markers. Each individual's markers can be distinguished by feel alone, so we could get the whole way back, separately, in total darkness, if we had to. So the odds of us getting lost in the system are very low. LIGHT. These caves are absolutely pitch black, so naturally you need a torch. In fact, nine torches! Each of us individually has a multi-thousand-lumen canister battery light, plus 2 backup torches, each of which would last the whole dive. I could also navigate by the light of my dive computer screen, and I'm considering carrying a cyalume chemical lightstick as well. So then I personally would have five different sources of light, and we'd need 11 sources of light to fail before the team would be left in the dark. The risk of this happening is basically zero. GAS. Each of us has two tanks in a fully redundant setup. If one side fails, we just go to the other and call the dive. In fact, our gas planning allows one diver's entire gas supply to fail, at the point of maximum penetration, and either one of the other two divers could get that guy back, plus himself, without relying on the third diver at all. However, gas is certainly a limited resource underwater, so it's always on our minds, and all three of us will turn the dive as soon as anyone hits their safety limit. There's lots more equipment involved, but let's leave it there for the moment, and turn our attention to... DRIVING! Each of us lives >400 km away from that system. So there and back is a five hour drive. During that drive, you could fall asleep and run off the road; have local fauna run out in front of your car; get head-on crashed by drunken drivers, and so on. Several of those are external risks that are not under our control. So the simple fact of the matter is this. Our cave dives are almost certainly SIGNIFICANTLY SAFER than driving to and from the dive site! The cave dives carry significant potential risks, but most of those are mitigated with proper training and equipment. Whereas there's not much I can do to stop a drunken driver running head-on into me. Certainly there are risks like tunnels collapsing and blocking the exit. But statistically, I'm sure that those are orders of magnitude less likely than having a heart attack, or falling over and breaking your neck. Hope that helps :-)
- ljf 9y agoDoes anyone know any more detail about their plan to drill down to him - and is similar rescues have been preformed this way? I'd be interested if the air he was breathing was 'trapped' and if drilling down would release it, and drown him, or if the air had a slow route in and out of the pocket he was in. Fascinating stuff.
- agentgt 9y ago"I only turned it on when I went to pee or to climb down to get fresh water," he says. I know this is really dumb question but why did he need to turn on his light to pee? I presume he is in his wet suite?
- x2398dh1 9y agoI would presume that he didn't want to pee in his water supply, perhaps? So he had to aim very precisely toward a low-lying area.