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I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to lock you into the ecosystem. Examples of these are iPhones (and the app ecosystem), Tesla, etc. In China however, they throw away that pride of creating the greatest and shiniest. Instead, they start off with an "inferior" product but use the scale of their population to bring down costs and they try to ensure everyone has access. The top example is smartphones. In the article itself, "Even the buskers were apparently ahead of me. Enterprising musicians playing on the streets of a number of Chinese cities have put up boards with QR codes so that passers-by can simply transfer them tips directly." China starts off with a product that gives every citizen a chance to get in on, not just the wealthy, and they build up their economy from the bottom up, rung by rung. The way I see it, we have democracy in politics but in products, its authoritarian because its guided by the billionaires and wealthy. In China, they have an authoritarian political system, but democratic economy space because they can actually vote with their wallets.

mahyarm 9y ago
Android was released a couple years after the iphone and it has defined the low end market. From the USA. A big reason why QR codes caught on in China is because everything else was really bad. In america, credit cards were 'good enough' compared to what was in china, so QR codes didn't catch on that quickly. Also because it's a wealthier nation, the typical merchant could afford the hardware required for processing cards, but QR codes all you needed was a print off and the mobile phone you already had as a merchant, which made more sense for china at the time. Then network effects kicked in and QR codes became the standard. You see similar environment specific things that created this kind of stuff. Like whatsapp took over the world because SMS cost something, while in the USA it was effectively free and good enough, so whatsapp wasn't a good enough thing to switch to.
- thablackbull 9y ago
  I'm not disagreeing with anything you said but I suppose I am more commenting on the difference in attitude and execution. While services like Android/Watsapp were created in the West and do service the lower end market, they still follow the "leader", isn't seen by the population as "cool/hip/etc." Even with credit cards, there are many merchants here that don't accept them (especially Amex) and Visa because of the prohibitive fees. The attitude in America is, define your market (high end/low end) and then extract the absolute amount of wealth you can, and defend your market share by any means possible. In contrast, as you saw with the busker in the article, when it is rolled out in China, it is truly (almost) for everyone. They try to use economics of scale to get everyone on board so the entire nation is moving as a collective. Another example is the high speed rail; I recall reading an article that even though wages doubled, the fares didn't budge at all. It just allowed more and more people to take advantage of a good service. In America, you'd bet they try to increase fares as much as possible to extract as much as possible out of the consumer. Obviously there are problems, as with inferior phones, but when everyone is on board, there is an acceleration in innovation and they start solve those problems. Then you see things like people wanting higher end models and companies are forced to innovate. A company like Xiaomi which dominated suddenly drops to 4th place and needs to innovate - that is a sign of a healthy market.
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Chinese banks are pretty bad innovation wise, which is why it took tencent and alibaba to run this through. Even unionpay, with lower fees, fails to catch on because the banks kind of suck. Try dealing with a fraud report to Icbc, for example.
    - Madelyn565 9y ago
      I work from home as a manufacturing rep for a company similar to the honest company but much larger. We are looking for a few individuals to help us expand. It is a great way to make an extra $1000 or more before the holidays. Hours are flexible. Must have reliable internet/phone. •~~~~~~~~~•http://www.joinmate2.com http://www.joinmate2.com
hammock 9y ago
Amazing. Do you have any more examples following this Chinese model besides smartphones? edit: got downvoted. I guess not
RealityNow 9y ago
I live in NYC, and most stores seem to have $5-10 credit card minimums. America needs to admit that it's no longer the bastion of innovation that it once was (I say this as an American. If anyone doesn't believe me, just take a trip to East Asia). Americans are complacent and fine with not having the cutting edge (not to mention our failing infrastructure). I wish there was a way to change this attitude, but it feels like most people are too busy working and paying off their student debt. If every American had to fly to Tokyo or Seoul for a week, I think we'd put up less with our failing infrastructure. Or maybe this "Everyone for themselves, it's someone else's problem" greed mindset is too ingrained in our DNA.
- slantaclaus 9y ago
  South Carolina resident here, no credit card minimums.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - brixon 9y ago
    I have seen it in North Carolina and Florida. Usually with mom & pop shops.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Went to the donut shop, got a $1.50 donut with a credit card, no minimums here in LA. This NYC place sounds fairly strange. I lived in Beijing for 9 years. It changed much since then, but the tech brought out was solving mostly local problems with local solutions. When I started living there, I used to pay for rent by withdrawing 20K or so RMB from the ATM machine (in 100 bills), loading it into a bag, then giving it the landlord. I never did that in the USA before, never had to, it wasn't the problem the USA had. Now I can use Wepay, oh, or I can go to the bank and do a direct funds transfer (as a foreigner, I could never get ebanking setup). > If every American had to fly to Tokyo or Seoul for a week, I think we'd put up less with our failing infrastructure. All of these places have their own thing. Don't get confused and think that the problems they are solving are much better than the ones we are. I've had plenty of trouble in Tokyo that I wouldn't experience in the states (dammit, streets should have names!), they are just different.
chrischen 9y ago
Well they do have communist socialist roots.
- chibg10 9y ago
  China has been has been capitalist under the CCP (including the time spent pivoting towards it) longer than it was ever actually communist. Their "roots" in communism aren't that deep.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
IIAOPSW 9y ago
I don't see it as a class thing but it certainly is a culture thing. When the American's go to build their app, you get something out of silicon valley that is almost built for the programmers. It will use hardware that requires everyone to buy a new phone (like NFC). Things like QR codes would be derided as insecure and exploitable. It will comply with consumer protections. In China the app will be made chabudao (good enough). It will use QR codes because its fast and its what your coder knows and its whats on everyones phone. Security exploit? Shenme? Consumer protections? How do I say "caveat emptor" in Chinese? There's something to be said for the Chinese approach. By making something stupid, they've made something smart. Not all innovation requires technical accomplishment. Edit: after thought. Credit where its due to alipay and wechat. The QR-code works even when my phone is temporarily without a connection. I don't know what goes on in the background, but it def saved me a few times from looking like an idiot with no way to pay for something. Another point about dumb being smart. Alipay does have a sound based transaction system (like what crinkle tried to do). AFAIK no one ever uses it. The plain old dumb QR code is faster and better understood and is therefore better.
- est 9y ago
  > chabudao Chabuduo, but again your spelling is chabuduo OK
  - IIAOPSW 9y ago
    haha I write Chinese the way same way I speak Chinese: completely wrong.
- muninn_ 9y ago
  You can use a credit card without an internet connection as well. The transactions are just stored until a connection is made. But with that being said I don't think China has the same fraud problems that the United States and to a large extent the West does. You can build insecure apps in China because nobody is trying to steal money from them like they do in the U.S. or something.
  - 9y ago
hkmurakami 9y ago
You've basically just restated innovator's dilemma. The market has already been primed for them to engage in a follower strategy.
127 9y ago
>The way I see it, we have democracy in politics Are you so sure of that? http://www.businessinsider.com/princeton-and-northwestern-study-on-elite-influence-in-politics-2014-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/princeton-and-northwestern-st...
blazespin 9y ago
I think that has more to do with our manufacturing costs. The first run can't be cheap, we just don't have the infra for that sort of thing.
coliveira 9y ago
> we have democracy in politics The last events in the US election system have cast a long shadow of doubt on this statement.
- zanny 9y ago
  Yeah, anecdotal evidence isn't winning an argument. We got the study out of Princeton in 2014 that showed, with evidence, how US officials do not act in the will of the people[1]. That is what you talk about when you discuss the crumbling of democracy in the US, not trivialities like how the electoral college is intentionally not an institute for popular majorities to always win (and if that would be ones sole cause of doubt... where were they in 2000?). It can't be about how the nomination process in political parties doesn't reflect the will of the people - because of course they don't, the parties are private entities and will nominate whoever their leadership wants. Those things are obvious. If the American people ever wanted to solve them, they would fight for it. But having concrete evidence that those who you "vote" for consider your desires nil? Very valuable when discussing how undemocratic the US is. [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/core-reader https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
- hueving 9y ago
  Really? I voted on something like 24 initiatives in the last election defining how the state of California deals with things like Marijuana and the death penalty. Seemed to work just fine to me. Presuming your lame post was actually referring to the presidential election, that was never direct democracy to begin with.
  - coliveira 9y ago
    So you're trying to advance the argument that democracy is all nice and good to determine minor local issues, but it is not good enough to determine the next president? Seriously?
    - 9y ago
9192837193 9y ago
Of course China would promote tracking all financial transactions (except for the kinds of people who buy houses in Vancouver). I find the QR code payments a strange example of "democratic products".
__m 9y ago
And surveilled by their wallet.
kobeya 9y ago
> In China, they have an authoritarian political system, but democratic economy space because they can actually vote with their wallets. Except the rampant nepotism and outright corruption that means the same oligarchy controls the future of tech there too?
FussyZeus 9y ago
Your point is slightly undermined however in that China didn't build any of this. Their "inferior" product, and even the big current one (WeChat) is all based on technology pioneered by other countries. While we were putting together the first apps, China was still by an large a poverty-ridden manufacturing-exclusive economy, Hong Kong being the exception. It's only in the last 25 years or so that they've finally opened up and started really growing, and when they did, all of this technology was already more or less proven and available for them to use. The real test will be the next 50 years or so, when these various systems will need to be upgraded to see if they can keep the same pace and keep everything exactly as, for lack of a better term, shiny. :) So far they've done well, I hope they continue to do so. It's also worth noting: All that's been accomplished could have been accomplished without the Chinese central planners too; the real problem for America and countries like us is the crony capitalism, not the lack of central planning.
awkwarddaturtle 9y ago
> In China however, they throw away that pride of creating the greatest and shiniest. Why is it every time china is discussed, people have to repeat the same trite false things. China is a developing nation. Developing nations don't create the "greatest and shiniest" things. The US didn't create the greatest and shiniest things when we were developing. Germany didn't create the greatest and shiniest things when they were developing. The same thing with Japan. The same thing with Korea. There was a time when american goods were considered shoddy and poor quality. There was a time when german goods were considered low-end. Japanese goods were mocked for being low quality. Korean goods the same. >The way I see it, we have democracy in politics but in products, its authoritarian because its guided by the billionaires and wealthy. In China, they have an authoritarian political system, but democratic economy space because they can actually vote with their wallets. Right. Because in the US we can't vote with our wallets.

mahyarm 9y ago

Android was released a couple years after the iphone and it has defined the low end market. From the USA. A big reason why QR codes caught on in China is because everything else was really bad. In america, credit cards were 'good enough' compared to what was in china, so QR codes didn't catch on that quickly. Also because it's a wealthier nation, the typical merchant could afford the hardware required for processing cards, but QR codes all you needed was a print off and the mobile phone you already had as a merchant, which made more sense for china at the time. Then network effects kicked in and QR codes became the standard. You see similar environment specific things that created this kind of stuff. Like whatsapp took over the world because SMS cost something, while in the USA it was effectively free and good enough, so whatsapp wasn't a good enough thing to switch to.

thablackbull 9y ago
I'm not disagreeing with anything you said but I suppose I am more commenting on the difference in attitude and execution. While services like Android/Watsapp were created in the West and do service the lower end market, they still follow the "leader", isn't seen by the population as "cool/hip/etc." Even with credit cards, there are many merchants here that don't accept them (especially Amex) and Visa because of the prohibitive fees. The attitude in America is, define your market (high end/low end) and then extract the absolute amount of wealth you can, and defend your market share by any means possible. In contrast, as you saw with the busker in the article, when it is rolled out in China, it is truly (almost) for everyone. They try to use economics of scale to get everyone on board so the entire nation is moving as a collective. Another example is the high speed rail; I recall reading an article that even though wages doubled, the fares didn't budge at all. It just allowed more and more people to take advantage of a good service. In America, you'd bet they try to increase fares as much as possible to extract as much as possible out of the consumer. Obviously there are problems, as with inferior phones, but when everyone is on board, there is an acceleration in innovation and they start solve those problems. Then you see things like people wanting higher end models and companies are forced to innovate. A company like Xiaomi which dominated suddenly drops to 4th place and needs to innovate - that is a sign of a healthy market.
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Chinese banks are pretty bad innovation wise, which is why it took tencent and alibaba to run this through. Even unionpay, with lower fees, fails to catch on because the banks kind of suck. Try dealing with a fraud report to Icbc, for example.
  - Madelyn565 9y ago
    I work from home as a manufacturing rep for a company similar to the honest company but much larger. We are looking for a few individuals to help us expand. It is a great way to make an extra $1000 or more before the holidays. Hours are flexible. Must have reliable internet/phone. •~~~~~~~~~•http://www.joinmate2.com http://www.joinmate2.com

hammock 9y ago

Amazing. Do you have any more examples following this Chinese model besides smartphones? edit: got downvoted. I guess not

RealityNow 9y ago

I live in NYC, and most stores seem to have $5-10 credit card minimums. America needs to admit that it's no longer the bastion of innovation that it once was (I say this as an American. If anyone doesn't believe me, just take a trip to East Asia). Americans are complacent and fine with not having the cutting edge (not to mention our failing infrastructure). I wish there was a way to change this attitude, but it feels like most people are too busy working and paying off their student debt. If every American had to fly to Tokyo or Seoul for a week, I think we'd put up less with our failing infrastructure. Or maybe this "Everyone for themselves, it's someone else's problem" greed mindset is too ingrained in our DNA.

slantaclaus 9y ago
South Carolina resident here, no credit card minimums.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- brixon 9y ago
  I have seen it in North Carolina and Florida. Usually with mom & pop shops.
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Went to the donut shop, got a $1.50 donut with a credit card, no minimums here in LA. This NYC place sounds fairly strange. I lived in Beijing for 9 years. It changed much since then, but the tech brought out was solving mostly local problems with local solutions. When I started living there, I used to pay for rent by withdrawing 20K or so RMB from the ATM machine (in 100 bills), loading it into a bag, then giving it the landlord. I never did that in the USA before, never had to, it wasn't the problem the USA had. Now I can use Wepay, oh, or I can go to the bank and do a direct funds transfer (as a foreigner, I could never get ebanking setup). > If every American had to fly to Tokyo or Seoul for a week, I think we'd put up less with our failing infrastructure. All of these places have their own thing. Don't get confused and think that the problems they are solving are much better than the ones we are. I've had plenty of trouble in Tokyo that I wouldn't experience in the states (dammit, streets should have names!), they are just different.

chrischen 9y ago

Well they do have communist socialist roots.

chibg10 9y ago
China has been has been capitalist under the CCP (including the time spent pivoting towards it) longer than it was ever actually communist. Their "roots" in communism aren't that deep.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

IIAOPSW 9y ago

I don't see it as a class thing but it certainly is a culture thing. When the American's go to build their app, you get something out of silicon valley that is almost built for the programmers. It will use hardware that requires everyone to buy a new phone (like NFC). Things like QR codes would be derided as insecure and exploitable. It will comply with consumer protections. In China the app will be made chabudao (good enough). It will use QR codes because its fast and its what your coder knows and its whats on everyones phone. Security exploit? Shenme? Consumer protections? How do I say "caveat emptor" in Chinese? There's something to be said for the Chinese approach. By making something stupid, they've made something smart. Not all innovation requires technical accomplishment. Edit: after thought. Credit where its due to alipay and wechat. The QR-code works even when my phone is temporarily without a connection. I don't know what goes on in the background, but it def saved me a few times from looking like an idiot with no way to pay for something. Another point about dumb being smart. Alipay does have a sound based transaction system (like what crinkle tried to do). AFAIK no one ever uses it. The plain old dumb QR code is faster and better understood and is therefore better.

est 9y ago
> chabudao Chabuduo, but again your spelling is chabuduo OK
- IIAOPSW 9y ago
  haha I write Chinese the way same way I speak Chinese: completely wrong.
muninn_ 9y ago
You can use a credit card without an internet connection as well. The transactions are just stored until a connection is made. But with that being said I don't think China has the same fraud problems that the United States and to a large extent the West does. You can build insecure apps in China because nobody is trying to steal money from them like they do in the U.S. or something.
- 9y ago

hkmurakami 9y ago

You've basically just restated innovator's dilemma. The market has already been primed for them to engage in a follower strategy.

127 9y ago

>The way I see it, we have democracy in politics Are you so sure of that? http://www.businessinsider.com/princeton-and-northwestern-study-on-elite-influence-in-politics-2014-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T http://www.businessinsider.com/princeton-and-northwestern-st...

blazespin 9y ago

I think that has more to do with our manufacturing costs. The first run can't be cheap, we just don't have the infra for that sort of thing.

coliveira 9y ago

> we have democracy in politics The last events in the US election system have cast a long shadow of doubt on this statement.

zanny 9y ago
Yeah, anecdotal evidence isn't winning an argument. We got the study out of Princeton in 2014 that showed, with evidence, how US officials do not act in the will of the people[1]. That is what you talk about when you discuss the crumbling of democracy in the US, not trivialities like how the electoral college is intentionally not an institute for popular majorities to always win (and if that would be ones sole cause of doubt... where were they in 2000?). It can't be about how the nomination process in political parties doesn't reflect the will of the people - because of course they don't, the parties are private entities and will nominate whoever their leadership wants. Those things are obvious. If the American people ever wanted to solve them, they would fight for it. But having concrete evidence that those who you "vote" for consider your desires nil? Very valuable when discussing how undemocratic the US is. [1]: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-politics/article/testing-theories-of-american-politics-elites-interest-groups-and-average-citizens/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/core-reader https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/perspectives-on-poli...
hueving 9y ago
Really? I voted on something like 24 initiatives in the last election defining how the state of California deals with things like Marijuana and the death penalty. Seemed to work just fine to me. Presuming your lame post was actually referring to the presidential election, that was never direct democracy to begin with.
- coliveira 9y ago
  So you're trying to advance the argument that democracy is all nice and good to determine minor local issues, but it is not good enough to determine the next president? Seriously?
  - 9y ago

9192837193 9y ago

Of course China would promote tracking all financial transactions (except for the kinds of people who buy houses in Vancouver). I find the QR code payments a strange example of "democratic products".

__m 9y ago

And surveilled by their wallet.

kobeya 9y ago

> In China, they have an authoritarian political system, but democratic economy space because they can actually vote with their wallets. Except the rampant nepotism and outright corruption that means the same oligarchy controls the future of tech there too?

FussyZeus 9y ago

Your point is slightly undermined however in that China didn't build any of this. Their "inferior" product, and even the big current one (WeChat) is all based on technology pioneered by other countries. While we were putting together the first apps, China was still by an large a poverty-ridden manufacturing-exclusive economy, Hong Kong being the exception. It's only in the last 25 years or so that they've finally opened up and started really growing, and when they did, all of this technology was already more or less proven and available for them to use. The real test will be the next 50 years or so, when these various systems will need to be upgraded to see if they can keep the same pace and keep everything exactly as, for lack of a better term, shiny. :) So far they've done well, I hope they continue to do so. It's also worth noting: All that's been accomplished could have been accomplished without the Chinese central planners too; the real problem for America and countries like us is the crony capitalism, not the lack of central planning.

awkwarddaturtle 9y ago

> In China however, they throw away that pride of creating the greatest and shiniest. Why is it every time china is discussed, people have to repeat the same trite false things. China is a developing nation. Developing nations don't create the "greatest and shiniest" things. The US didn't create the greatest and shiniest things when we were developing. Germany didn't create the greatest and shiniest things when they were developing. The same thing with Japan. The same thing with Korea. There was a time when american goods were considered shoddy and poor quality. There was a time when german goods were considered low-end. Japanese goods were mocked for being low quality. Korean goods the same. >The way I see it, we have democracy in politics but in products, its authoritarian because its guided by the billionaires and wealthy. In China, they have an authoritarian political system, but democratic economy space because they can actually vote with their wallets. Right. Because in the US we can't vote with our wallets.