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Qualcomm, Microsoft Announce Snapdragon 835 PCs with Gigabit LTE
- exabrial 9y agoYes, but does it include a headphone jack? /s
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- pulse7 9y agoI was reading very fast "...Announce Snapdragon $35 PCs with Gigabit LTE"... I hope the price will be $35...
- Noctix 9y agoI don't see the purpose of this. Current Windows on ARM has pretty non existent support by developers.
- speps 9y agoI think you missed that news : https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/12/windows-10-will-seamlessly-run-legacy-x86-win32-apps-on-arm/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/12/windows-10-will-seamless...
- adzm 9y agoHave there been any public previews of this? I'm still trying to figure out how they can emulate x86 without significant performance problems due to the different memory concurrency models
- my123 9y agohttps://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172&start=25 https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172... ARM64 Windows leaked - and can run in Qemu.
- ant6n 9y agoI have heard the concern re memory concurrency models, can somebody explain the problem a bit more?
- Noctix 9y agoThis is basically an emulator though; it will be quite slow.
- mciancia 9y agoThey showed games (WoT I think) running using this emulation, so maybe not.
- rasz 9y ago"World of Tanks Blitz" - a Phone game
- DiNovi 9y agothat might not matter
- mtgx 9y agoWe don't know yet. Overhead could be something like 5% or 25%. We'll see when the reviews come. For what it's worth, it seems to run x86 apps just fine in Microsoft's own demo (keep in mind it's still a mobile ARM processor, so performance will be similar to Atom/Celeron/Pentium, rather than Core i5, etc). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_GlGglbu1U
- disconnected 9y agoI don't trust product demos, movie trailers nor press releases, so I'll reserve my enthusiasm until someone on the "real world" has had the chance to get their hands on this. What I know is this: ARM emulation via QEMU on my core i7 was pretty slow last I tried it. Not unusably slow, but still slow. And I have tons of ram and a fat CPU. These laptops, especially if they are made on the cheap side, won't have tons of RAM and a fat CPU. Unless Microsoft pulled some magic tricks, I don't see this emulation being usable. But I could be wrong.
- my123 9y agohttps://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172&start=25 https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172... ARM64 emulation in Qemu is very slow anyway...
- merkaloid 9y agox86 emulation will make life easier initially. But if these devices become popular, so will UWP apps.
- csixty4 9y agoThere's a couple different things at play this time. Windows RT only allowed Store apps and Microsoft's own ARM desktop apps. Windows 10 on ARM will run UWP Store apps and x86 apps (desktop & hybrid "Centennial" apps). At at Build, they announced Edge support for Progressive Web Apps and they'll be adding PWAs to the Store automatically if they meet all the right criteria for features & quality. So not only will this platform support almost all the existing Windows software out there, it'll treat PWAs as first-class citizens.
- 0xFFC 9y agoWow, This is what I was talking about when I got down voted two or 3 days ago. Yes, ARM/Qualcomm in no position to compete with INTEL high-end desktop CPUs. But they are perfectly capable of competing in low-end market and multi-processor environment. This will hurt INTEL in long term very badly. ARM will come to the desktop. No matter we like it or not.
- AdmiralAsshat 9y agoARM is already in the desktop (or laptop, rather). See: the numerous Chromebooks powered by Rockchip processors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip_RK3288 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip_RK3288
- ant6n 9y agoBefore that, Samsung Exynos was in some Chromebooks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A15
- yread 9y agoThere is a bit more detail here (with pictures) https://www.notebookcheck.net/Prototype-of-Snapdragon-835-powered-notebooks-unveiled.224926.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Prototype-of-Snapdragon-835-po...
- pawadu 9y agoThat PCB is very small! And it doesn't look extremely packed either.
- walterbell 9y ago> the new operating system will include x86 emulation, giving it the ability to run 32-bit Windows desktop applications unmodified Is this emulation done with a combination of hardware & software?
- my123 9y agoIt is software only. https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172&start=25 https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172...
- mtgx 9y agoHow would hardware emulation even work? Wouldn't it mean Qualcomm would have to support the x86 instructions on its ARM chip? You may be thinking of how the Android emulator supports hardware acceleration for emulation, but that's just because your laptop has an x86 chip in it and the emulator is actually serving you the x86 image of Android, not the ARM one, so the "emulation" is more like Apple's "native simulation" for iOS.
- pawadu 9y ago> How would hardware emulation even work? Like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmeta_Crusoe In fact, most high-performance CPUs be it ARM or AMD or Intel do instruction translation internally.
- DCKing 9y agoNvidia makes an architecture (Denver [1]) that is made by former Transmeta people and is in many ways a direct successor to this chip. In its current forms, Denver is implemented to execute ARMv8 instructions, but it could in theory execute x86 just the same. Now it's performing its internal exotic VLIW instructions by performing ARM "hardware emulation", but it could do x86 "hardware emulation" just the same. Qualcomm uses a less exotic architecture in their chips so that's not an option for them. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver
- kevin_b_er 9y ago> With a Snapdragon inside your PC, you'll no longer need Wi-Fi to fetch your latest e-mail and catch up on Twitter. Instead, you'll be able to get online wherever there's cellular connectivity. I'm not buying the optimism, especially not in the US. The cellular data is still horribly limited. In Canada it is even worse. The "unlimited" plan is surging back, but it has automatic throttling at varying points. Oh and since we're talking Microsoft and Windows, you can't control data usage. Windows 10 uploads your personal information at unknown intervals and downloads ads and sponsored apps without consent. What good is faster cell data with horrible data limits and an OS with a poor concept of when data is permissible even in the "Enterprise" edition?
- mtgx 9y agoYeah, I'm not really buying the LTE being the "killer feature" thing either. I hope Qualcomm is not betting the farm on that. Its ARM processors will have to stand on their own feet in regards to performance alone. Few people buy their laptops based on LTE support, and although I do believe it could become more popular in the future, I don't think it will have a fast pick-up, with or without Qualcomm's promotion of LTE laptops.
- 52-6F-62 9y agoI definitely think it will be popular in the future. It depends on who wins the race for ubiquitous network coverage, though. Google, Facebook, and SpaceX have all moved to initiate programs to install global high speed wifi access. This is probably the last edge chance for cellular network companies in the long term. If wifi hits first, with projects like Google home offering free calling as well as other ip-phone services I think we could see those companies begin to fall. I'm taking the rather long view, though. For average, non-power users, I could see these being quite popular -- especially if they can handle Windows 10, MS Office, some light Photoshop, and fast internet. Otherwise I wouldn't mind one to turn into a highly portable Linux machine -- stars in my eyes, and all that.
- Eridrus 9y ago
- al2o3cr 9y agoAsus, HP, and Lenovo are all planning to introduce Snapdragon Mobile PC systems at some unspecified time in the future, for some unspecified price. In other news, today at the Vaporware Expo every computer manufacturer announced plans to release a new device featuring unspecified hardware at some unspecified time in the future for an unspecified price.
- johnhattan 9y agoMy first impression was "Oh great. The only thing we'll ever see from this is a bunch of luxurious overpriced Surface-branded hardware." At least if they're sharing the spec with other manufacturers, we'll possibly get some reasonably priced hardware. Myself, I'm crossing my fingers for some Raspberry Pi-class machines that'll work with this.
- my123 9y agoIt's publicly leaked and runs on any UEFI+ACPI ARM64 hardware.
- wyldfire 9y agoCan you refer us to more details?
- my123 9y agohttps://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172&start=25 https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37172... Read the whole thread for instructions.
- dis-sys 9y agothat just made my day! wondering what hacks are required to boot and run windows server on a phone.
- bobsam 9y ago
- wyldfire 9y agoI look forward to learning more about this product. I love that we're moving non-x86 into mainstream consumer products like this (and not limited to low-end chromebooks, e.g.). ARM SoCs lack the backward compatible x86 BIOS-style bootstrap. This is great because it's kinda crazy to think about booting into stuff like MBR, real mode, etc in 2017. But this is bad because without good standards it's really tricky to have a generic installer for another OS. Also, all or nearly all ARM SoCs have signed bootloaders. Great: less fear of a rootkit/virus hiding in my system. Awful: often used to protect subsidies or other business model hijinks; can't install an alternate OS.
- leggomylibro 9y agoYeah, that's my biggest fear for this computer. I would snap up two or three in a heartbeat if I could put my favorite Linux distro on it. My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. These Microsoft ARM machines are encouraging, since they should bring new entries into the ultraportable market, but I think I'll hold off until it's clear that we'll have options with regards to the software.
- wolfgke 9y ago> My little 10" ARM chromebook has already left my more powerful laptop gathering dust. It seems like 'just a browser' at first glance, but it becomes so much more when you add a chroot which can launch X sessions into Chrome tabs. So you claim running X sessions in Chrome tabs is better than running X directly?
- leggomylibro 9y agoWell...yes, sometimes. You could run a WM in a chrome tab, but I prefer breaking out individual programs. Like, I can have KiCAD running in one tab, with the datasheets for parts I'm using in nearby tabs. Or I can just break an IDE out into its own window. It's a small screen, so having the whole browser window dedicated to the program is nice, and you can even use fullscreen mode and navigate with ctrl+[shift+]tab. ChromeOS has a nice UI. Certainly much nicer than XFCE running in a browser tab.
- subway 9y agoI love the concept -- I already use a laptop with an LTE modem, but I really wish Qualcomm would lay off on giving their baseband such low level access to the application cores. I already begrudgingly use a phone where I know the carrier can execute arbitrary code accessing system memory, I really don't want that on my laptop too.
- adrianlmm 9y agoI'd love to buy a Windows PC with ARM, I hope this becomes true.
- chrisper 9y agoThe surface with ARM wasn't really that good I read. I think it was the lack of ARM software.
- adrianlmm 9y agoI hope MS has learned from it's misstakes this time, I'm sure they did.
- devopsproject 9y agowhy?
- adrianlmm 9y agoBecause the most popular OS in the world now running in a the most popular CPU in the world would be a good match IMHO.
- devopsproject 9y agowhy?
- seaghost 9y agoI hope in near future we'll choose what we want to install on our mobile devices and use it as desktop as well. Think of it as way better version then Samsung Dex.
- Allower 9y agoSounds like a con. Why are we bringing back the shitty ass netbook?
- Samathy 9y agoI'm really excited about ARM laptops, but only if: * They have laptop-class performance, not tablet class performance * They can have more than 4GB of RAM * You can put reasonable sized standard SATA SSDs in them, or user-replaceable M.2 drives. * You can easily wipe Windows off them and put Linux on it.
- zanny 9y ago> You can easily wipe Windows off them and put Linux on it. None of the modems are going to be supported in Linux because they all use blob drivers and are wholly proprietary. ARM has no bios or standard boot procedure. Google requires coreboot on Chromebooks, for example, which allows Linux to run on the ARM targets. It is unlikely ARM laptops without Google's strong arm are going to support coreboot. Qualcomm specifically leaves significant portions of the support code for their SoCs in binary blobs, unable to be used in generic kernels. There is no Linux kernel level support for almost any Qualcomm SoC, and even then they are often some of the better ones. The other "real" options are third parties with ARM's own CPUs on them, which would have ARM's GPUs which have no real device support in Linux (Lima is dead) compared to Qualcomm parts (Freedreno sees updates). Nvidias chips are probably the closest to usable, and Samsung's Exynos are completely unusable and mega-proprietary (you will have a hard time finding even custom Android ROMs for Samsung SoCs). The ARM ecosystem as a whole is really, really toxic. It is all NIH'd out the butt, there are no standards, everything is proprietary, and nobody contributes upstream. By comparison, x86 is an angelic fantasy.
- yjftsjthsd-h 9y ago> ARM has no bios or standard boot procedure. Doesn't this system use uefi?
- GFischer 9y agoWhy wouldn't they have more than 4 GB of RAM? Current Android flagships are shipping with 6 GB of RAM, and 8 GB phones have been announced. I'm not sure about the laptop-class performance requirement, you mean for light browsing and office tasks, they should be there already (even with the emulation penalty). Edit: 8 GB phone announcement: http://bgr.com/2017/01/05/asus-zenfone-ar-release-date/ http://bgr.com/2017/01/05/asus-zenfone-ar-release-date/
- emilecantin 9y ago> Gigabit LTE Wow, now I can bust my monthly data allotment in just a second! (or ~6s if you get the "big" data plan)
- lloeki 9y agoThere are set-top boxes, from ISPs that are also mobile operators, which embed femtocells. When a mobile subscriber is using such a femtocell, it doesn't count towards the mobile data cap.
- firethief 9y agoImagine the convenience of having a wireless network in your own home!
- lloeki 9y agoAlthough of limited range, the femtocell is public, not limited to the landline customer's use. This handily covers shadowed areas in cities as well as remote areas, reduces load on main cells, and Tx power needed both ways.
- dfrey 9y agoyour data allotment is ~128 MB?
- bhauer 9y agoIf you are part of the cult-like group that dreams of a future Surface Phone, which includes myself, this is an interesting milestone. If such a device has been in the works in the past, Intel's cancellation of Morganfield (Broxton SoC for phones) was a huge set-back. Microsoft pursuing x86 emulation on ARM, while certainly of interest to low-cost traditional form-factors such as laptops and tablets, is also interesting because it reinvigorates the idea of a Surface Phone. Of course, the reality remains to be seen. For those unfamiliar, the concept that many of us imagine for a Surface Phone includes an evolution of today's Windows 10 Mobile Continuum feature that, as with Ubuntu Phones and some fringe Android devices, allows a phone to act as a full computer when docked to a keyboard, mouse, and display. While Continuum exists today on devices such as the Lumia 950 and HP Elite x3, it is limited to Windows' "Universal" applications, and does not work with x86 or even older Windows Phone applications. Still, the appeal of a single-device lifestyle is considerable and many people would love to simplify the technology in their life to a phone that is also their desktop/mobile computer. Many of the youngest generation already do this by simply conceding (willingly or unknowingly) they will never enjoy the advantages of computing with large monitors, keyboards, and mice. In order for a single device to successfully fulfill these multiple roles, it needs to be able to run real applications and not just in a "enlarged phone OS" fashion seen on devices such as the iPad Pro. If a Surface Phone were to materialize, I would expect Windows 10 Mobile and Windows 10 to become more converged than they are today. When using Continuum on a Lumia 950, Windows 10 Mobile is doing a respectable job of impersonating a Windows 10 desktop; but it's a veneer. For a Surface Phone to be a viable computer, I think it would start with Windows 10 (full version for ARM) and adapt downward to the phone form-factor, rather than today's opposite of a phone-tailored operating system adapting upward. Yes, W10 and W10M are very similar today, but a SP device would, I feel, push them closer together. Of course, there is no genuine credible news on such as device, and Microsoft has dodged questions, even downplaying the likelihood of such a device. There seems to be a widespread opinion that one should not even try to build momentum in today's phone market, which I feel is shockingly myopic and pessimistic. Of course it's not a simple matter to establish a foothold in mobile, but previous efforts, while half-hearted at times were nevertheless making (slow) progress until Microsoft pulled the rug out from beneath Windows Phone 8. The biggest challenge to a Surface Phone would be bigger than technology: it would be a test of Microsoft's commitment to the idea.
- zobzu 9y agoits interesting how ars basically copy paste the press release, even thus they very well know how much bs is in it. nobody cares about integrity anymore?
- natch 9y agoThe last thing I want is more engagement in my current relationships with cellular service companies. If Qualcomm and Microsoft really want a game changer, they should sink some of their vast resources into making mesh networking take off.
- flavio81 9y agoI think this is GREAT news, because it implies the following. a. - Intel and AMD losing their pseudo-monoply on PC/laptop chips, perhaps enabling bringing some prices down. b. - Mainstream PCs abandoning the old x86 (+IA64, AMD64) instruction set for a more modern instruction set which (i guess) enables more modern, more power-efficient architectures. but much more exciting than the above is that... c. - The jump to a more power-efficient CPU will enable me to have a nice desktop PC with, say, 128 cores, and with no extravagant cooling system or ridiculously high power consumption (I need to pay the power bills, anything that will be on for at least 8 hours a day will be watched for power consumption.). I know that there are already ways to take advantage of GPUs, but they are for specific operations. A desktop PC with a huge lot of cores will bring more generalized performance improvement. And TRUE hardcore multitasking... d. - This will push all vendors and Open Source projects to improve on their compiler support for that architecture.
- swiley 9y agoJust about none of this is likely (except maybe the low power stuff) given qualcomm's track record. Even smartphone OEMs hardly have any control over their kernel thanks to Qualcomm.
- shams93 9y agoI see this as an attack on ipad for business. I worked for a company that had to support ipads for business, we were using Xamarin and it was a slow and painful, expensive process but the systems were easy to manage, although using an onscreen keyboard was limiting. Imagine the same benefits of ipad for business without having to license a private app store from Apple. Imagine the cost per unit is lower and you can use .Net without the pain of Xamarin involved to roll out software as regular win32 binaries instead of jumping through hoops to produce an ios app in a .Net based business.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Markoff 9y agonah, just give me the x86 win32 emulation on Android so i can ditch my laptop for mobile which already has more RAM, but i still need to keep laptop for one work app
- antihero 9y agoFantasic, except in the centre of one of the most tech cities in the world, London, I can still barely scrape 200Kb/s with Three outside Liverpool Street.
- swiley 9y agoThis is actually a very bad thing. Qualcomm is decidedly against open source and open firmware, this will bring the closed disposable worthless logic board with the unmodifiable OS from your phone and into your laptop. Microsoft likes it of course because it means more control for them. TL;DR: Intel is not being abandoned because it's too closed, it's being abandoned because it's too open!
- youdontknowtho 9y agoI disagree. I think this is about Microsoft and PC vendors wanting to take advantage of the economies of scale in the mobile phone market. ARM devices are higher volume than anything else. When the PC was the volume platform it allowed Intel to move into other markets because of the same type of economics. Not everything is about that one issue. I think in this case it's typical capitalist drive to lower costs of production. Getting to move the PC user base over to subscription services like mobile phones is seen as a way to build revenue in what investors see as a stagnant PC market. Not saying that all of that is good for consumers but, in 2017, thats not shocking.
- userbinator 9y agoMy thoughts exactly. Wintel PCs are becoming too closed for comfort (see Intel ME, trusted/secure boot, etc.) and slowly degrading in terms of backward-compatibility, but they still have that legacy of openness inherited from the original IBM PC/AT of 1984 and continued throughout the 90s. I wouldn't even want to call these "PCs" anymore. These are essentially locked-down mobile devices running a crude approximation of a real PC environment.
- technofiend 9y agoDoes anyone else get the cold sweats just thinking about a Windows machine sitting essentially naked on the internet? Sure, Windows has a firewall. I still wouldn't really trust there are no zero days in it. This will make a damn fine Chromebook or Linux machine. Windows? Particularly with Qualcomm writing the unauditable radio stack? (See Google's Project Zero for why that's a bad idea.) No thanks.
- youdontknowtho 9y agoIf you think...I would buy one of these except that it has secure boot mandatory so I can't install Linux or reinstall Windows...then you actually aren't the market for these. Companies and consumers who don't care are...and they will buy a lot of them.
- erikpukinskis 9y agoInteresting point of convergence. This is probably first really mass market mobile VR chipset for positional tracking. Unless we turn out to need some kind of dedicated CV chip.
- loki22 9y agoIf SD835 is put in PCs the performance is going to be abysmal due to x86 emulation layer. Consequently, the price of the devices is going to be low, most likely in the same range as low end Pentium and Atom laptops/convertibles. The same chip with lower performance (due to power considerations) in high end phones costing upwards of $600-900, makes it an interesting gambit.
- squarefoot 9y agoWiFi is to cellular connectivity what local storage is to the cloud. Apparently it's all fine and dandy, then one day someone on the other side change their mind and you lose this or that feature, in other words control. Cellular connectivity can be useful as cloud storage can be, but I'd never ever use anything that depends on either for connectivity or storage. Moving every resource behind a tap the user cannot control is not the way to go, although I'm sure IT companies will keep pushing in that direction for obvious reasons.