12 ms·

Maine Is Drowning in Lobsters

248 points by hunglee2 9y ago

shostack 9y ago
I for one will do my part to help pick up the slack in demand. While the wholesale price has fluctuated, has there been much change in retail/restaurant lobster prices? I certainly don't see restaurants near me lowering the price of a lobster roll. If anything, looks like Old Port Lobster Shack in Redwood City increased theirs judging by what Google shows in their menu listing for a "Maine Lobster Roll" ($18.75) vs. what their website shows ($22.95). But that's just a local price in a market that in general seems to see prices racing upwards due to the influx of cash in the area.
- rl3 9y ago
  >I for one will do my part to help pick up the slack in demand. Likewise. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.
- hammock 9y ago
  >has there been much change in retail/restaurant lobster prices? No. Anecdotally, and also supported by data there was an article at some point about it. The worst part is a lot of restaurants use rock lobster instead of Maine lobster
- ghaff 9y ago
  Current pricing is often reflected to at least a certain degree in authentic lobster shacks on the Maine coast. However, in general, lobster is still priced in many places as this premium good. (I'm looking at you Legal Seafood with your $26 lobster rolls.) And, even worse, it's still common to hide the pricing behind "market price." (It's fair that lobster pricing does fluctuate more than other proteins but "market price" is at least as much about reducing pricing transparency.) So, the short answer is that lower lobster pricing doesn't seem to have led to widespread lower pricing in most places.
  - kirykl 9y ago
    Market price in this case is retail. Its the price that will move the inventory of lobsters for the most money, before they die of starvation or kill/eat each other in the tank.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Of course lobster pounds and the like have a market price that's usually posted on a chalk board or whiteboard. What I was referring to was regular restaurants that routinely don't list a price for dishes that use lobster on their menu and instead just say "market price." Which, in my experience, is more or less a synonym for "expensive." I'd note that, in addition to lobster pounds, it's far more common for coastal Maine restaurants to have the price for lobster in their menu like they do for every other dish.
- tyingq 9y ago
  Some of the New England area McDonalds sell Lobster rolls: https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-eat/mcdonalds-lobster-roll/ https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-ea... No idea if they are any good, but they are $8.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    They're apparently pretty bad. From what I've seen they're mostly a pre-frozen mush mixed in with lots of lettuce. Lobster rolls are really pretty simple. But they need to be fresh lobster and very little else--which obviously isn't a good match for McDonalds style prep. The good news is that means they're very easy to make at home and many places that sell lobster will even boil them for you.
  - wcummings 9y ago
    Au Bon Pain used to in New England as well.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Usually fast food lobster is warm water langistino. I tried the McLobster a few years ago, it was pretty mediocre.
  - cjlars 9y ago
    I've eaten them. It's the worst lobster roll I ever had, but the best McDonalds sandwich I ever had.
  - flyingfences 9y ago
    If you're actually in New England then you don't have to go to McDank's for a lobster roll.
- clashmoore 9y ago
  Anecdotally, I am in the North East and I do recall a year (probably 2012ish) where every local restaurant had exploded with lobster specials. Not necessarily whole lobsters for sale, but their meat used as a choice of protein along side chicken, beef, etc. The price at that time dropped to like $9 per pound in the super markets. Since that year, I haven't seen the same offerings where this Bloomberg article would suggest that the amount of harvested lobsters has gone up.
  - Goronmon 9y ago
    A few years ago you could get lobsters from Market Basket for $3.99 a pound. And they would steam them for you at no charge. My wife and I would go to the beach in the morning and pick up a couple decent size lobsters on the way home for around $10. That was a fun summer.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - alarat2001 9y ago
      In 2012, early warming of the Gulf of Maine precipitated an early and voluminous lobster molt. (The summer lobster are soft shell, meaning they have just molted). This glutted the market, creating dock prices near $2/ lb. During this summer, someone in Maine could buy a lobster for ~4-5 dollars.
- mjn 9y ago
  The article does discuss why there isn't a significant decline in price. Its two proposed explanations are increased demand from Chinese buyers, and increased demand from the relatively new lobster-roll phenomenon: > This leaves the Maine (and Canadian) lobster industry with another interesting challenge: how to find enough buyers for all those lobsters so that prices don't collapse. As you can see from the chart below, they've mostly succeeded: > [price chart] > Affluent Chinese diners have been one reason. This January, five chartered 747s full of live lobsters flew from Halifax, Nova Scotia, to China to supply Chinese New Year feasts. Maine's lobsters tend to make the voyage less dramatically, in regularly scheduled flights from Boston, but $27 million worth of them were shipped to China in 2016. > The national and even global spread of the lobster roll has also helped a lot. I came to Maine on a trip organized by Luke's Lobster, a fast-casual restaurant chain that now has 21 "shacks" in the U.S. and eight more scheduled to open this year, along with six licensed locations in Japan. ... Luke's Lobster now has its own plant in Saco, Maine, that processes between 4 and 5 percent of the state's lobster harvest. Processing, in this case, means cooking and picking the meat out of the claws and knuckles for Luke's lobster rolls while cleaning and freezing the raw tails and clawless "bullet" lobsters for sale to restaurants, groceries and such. > Holden's father, Jeff, says that tails used to sell for much more than claw meat. Now lobster rolls, for which tail meat is generally too chewy, have flipped the price equation.
- nattaylor 9y ago
  A fun read on this subject: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/clawback http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/clawback
- awkwardtortoise 9y ago
  Nope. We get maine lobsters in the NY area and the price has increased in the last few years. Haven't had lobsters because I refuse to pay extortion prices.
scrollbar 9y ago
I'm in the middle of reading Owning Our Future: The Emerging Ownership Revolution by Marjorie Kelly, which talks extensively about Maine lobster fishery rights. Along the sensitive areas of the coast, only owner-operated boats are allowed to fish, and these people must all have certified lobster fishing licenses. Their licensure also gives them voting rights around regulations for lobstering- in a sense, they own the commons and collectively make rules governing it. Kelly argues that this ownership of the lobstering commons, in a cooperative-like structure, leads to greater sustainability. Large corporate boats can operate only in designated areas. Instead of permitting limitless liberty to absentee owners for the seeking of wealth -- by hired hands indifferent to local custom -- Maine set spinning a new governing pattern…. That the right to make a living comes before the right to make a killing. That fairness for the many is more important than maximizing for the few. That sustaining the prosperity of larger living systems, both human and wild, is the root condition for the flourishing of all. (page 138) I'd highly recommend the book, which introduces the dichotomy of "generative" organizations (which by design seek to produce social value in addition to profit) vs. "extractive" organizations (which maximize financial value above all else). I'm surprised this article skips over this topic entirely.
- dublinben 9y ago
  Well it is Bloomberg, after all. That doesn't fit their narrative, or support the established biases of their audience.
- valuearb 9y ago
  This is great, I hope we apply it to the rest of the ocean life that we farm.
  - dflock 9y ago
    The problem is that mostly we don't farm ocean life - we just hunt it, on an industrial scale.
    - Finnucane 9y ago
      More than half of the seafood consumed globally is farmed: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/aquaculture/faqs/faq_aq_101.html http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/aquaculture/faqs/faq_aq_101.html
zwieback 9y ago
Is the herring they use as bait the same fish I buy in cans or jars in the supermarket? I'd rather eat that than lobster most days.
- strictnein 9y ago
  Plain herring or pickled herring?
  - zwieback 9y ago
    Both pickled and the canned German varieties I grew up with, e.g. with cream, mustard or tomato sauce.
    - MandieD 9y ago
      According to my husband, canned herring in tomato sauce or cream is delicious but I can't bring myself to even try it due to the smell. He's only allowed to eat it indoors if I'm not home, and the cans have to be thrown in the outside trash immediately.
      - zwieback 9y ago
        Same situation at my house - outside consumption and disposal only.
- anon1121 9y ago
  Yes, there are quite a few bait fish that are good eating.
- HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
  Yes, as bait fish they're quite easy to catch. Drop a line with a few shiny gold hooks and you'll likely pull it back up with a herring on each hook. For some reason they really like shiny objects. Only problem is they only taste good smoked, and when I had easy access to fishing for herring, I didn't have a smoker :-(
tyteen4a03 9y ago
Copy the Danes: Mass-approve Chinese visitor visas, and lonsters will go extinct before you can say "Please take our lobsters"
- sctb 9y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive inflammatory comments on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - drhodes 9y ago
    This isn't inflammatory. This was in the news recently, the Chinese folks THEMSELVES were commenting on how they would do a number on the invasive species, because they happened to have a taste for a particular oyster which the Dane's apparently do not. > The most popular comment came from someone (a Chinese) suggesting oyster visas should be issued "with 10 years' unlimited round trips and one-month-long stay and I can eat up them all in five years" received over 10,000 likes. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-04/27/content_29114134.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-04/27/content_291141...
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      I believe the Cantonese/Vietnamese saying goes "anything with four legs, except table and chair; anything that flies, except airplane." The Great Leap Forward conditioned the survivors to eat absolutely anything that moves. They'll even eat sea stars and jellyfish, without even gagging. While the rest of the world wonders how to dispose of the frozen gorillas[0], the Chinese are already wiping the fryer oil off their hands and throwing away the skewer. As tourists, they have an international reputation in the hospitality and tourism industry for eating literally anything you might care to put on their plate. [0] The Simpsons, "Bart the Mother" (10:3). According to Skinner, the pigeons are eaten by the Bolivian Tree Lizards, the lizards are eaten by Chinese Needle Snakes, the snakes are eaten by snake-eating gorillas, and the gorillas freeze to death during the winter.
shoover 9y ago
I went to Stonington last fall with my family. It's a beautiful and interesting place. We were fortunate to rent from a lifelong local and tour with a retired oil industry scientist and learned about a lot of this while there. The locals are very proud of the lobster industry and efforts to regulate it pragmatically but also humble and understanding that it could disappear quickly if the overall ecology changes and especially if the water temperature sweet spot continues moving north. There is concern for the economic prospects of those who leave school early or skip college to take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else if the fishing goes away. I thought they said many lobster boat captains made more like double the article's stated $45k; of course, that's only for the owner/operator. It's no desk job, for sure: those guys are out on the water before sunrise every day (except during thunderstorms) and it is cold out there. They do wrap up pretty early in the afternoon.
- lukethomas 9y ago
  Yup - in addition, many take the winter off. It's hard work during the peak times of year, but I'd compare it to the schedule of a school teacher (~3 month break).
- xemdetia 9y ago
  A lot of the Northeast coastline acts like this from New York to Maine. You have to remember too that this area has a long and firm understanding of what overfishing does (Nantucket, whaling industry) and chose to try and find the most stable route. Most of that area's income is export of fishing and tourism from people from elsewhere coming to visit the beach. I grew up in this area and you are definitely brought up being very mindful of it.
- yardie 9y ago
  > take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else if the fishing goes away Why not just go back to school and retrain for another career? Offshore and deepsea fishing is backbreaking, labour intensive work. I'd hope most of them were smart enough to figure out they aren't going to do this for the rest of their lives. Hell, I was a bartender once and even I figured out that standing on my feet 8-12 hours per day won't be possible after so many years.
lukethomas 9y ago
I live in Maine. So far this year in Maine, the price is about 2x what it normally goes for. Locals say it's because there's such strong overseas demand (China, etc). The average price of a lobster roll I'd say is around $18. Contrary to what the article says "it's not making anybody rich" I can tell you the lobstermen who typically sell lobster for $2/lb off the dock are very happy with $4/lb. A friend on a very good day will catch 2,000 pounds, so the extra margin this year is welcomed.
- ghaff 9y ago
  They seem to be starting to come down. They were $7/lb. at my local Hannaford's in Massachusetts today. (Down from about $12 fairly recently.) I assume that these are new shells coming in but I didn't buy any.
celias 9y ago
I remember reading about how abundant lobsters were on a historical plaque in Cape Breton. From travel Canada - "There was a time when these crustaceans were so plentiful and underappreciated that only the poorest children took lobster sandwiches in their lunches while the rich kids ate bologna." http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-lobster-on-cape-bretons-cabot-trail http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-lobster-...
- lukethomas 9y ago
  Folklore told here in Maine said that lobsters were so abundant they would walk up on the beaches. It was considered to be "trash" food and they fed it to prisoners. http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-history http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-history
  - EvanAnderson 9y ago
    Others who are into lobster folklore I suspect will enjoy listening to episode 33 of "The Memory Palace" podcast: http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-lobsters/ http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-lobsters/
- pcmaffey 9y ago
  Mud bugs
gumby 9y ago
One of the non-obvious factors of the economics of farming (fishing a specific region included): since most of the inputs are the same (weather, and with the emergence of commodity crops over the last century, seed too), if you have a good year, so do your peers, which drives down the value of the crop; when the year is bad (driving up the value) your yield has likely sunk. This is the justification of ag cooperatives (like the recently invalidated California Raisin Advisory board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Boa...) which are/were granted monopoly control over marketing and enforcement of production controls. These boards have been really useful (in some fisheries like Ayre Peninsula / South Australia, and according to this article perhaps in Maine) and really terrible (e.g. Wisconsin milk boards).
- ehnto 9y ago
  The regulations in the Eyre peninsula, and SA in general, benefit the single boat owner over the corporate fisheries and I think that's really cool. The strange side effect of the free market eventually benefiting large corporate entities makes the concept of a meritocracy somewhat warped. It's hard to pull yourself up from your bootstraps if your competitor has ten boats full of cheap boots. With just the right amount of regulation, you can make something that works well for many as opposed to very well for few. Anecdotally: My father was a skipper on a cray boat, catching crayfish in the south east of South Australia. The boat owners in those towns were essentially the wealthy elite. But the work was tough and most of my fathers friends hit 50 with significant ailments. One has an elevator in his house as he can't ascend stairs, the other suffered a stroke at 48 and is constantly in agonising back pain, and I bumped into one more in a neck brace who was doped up on opiates to cope. They made their money and retired early, but there was definitely a cost and perhaps they never got to truly enjoy the fruits of their labour.
dade_ 9y ago
It concerns me that the creatures that devour dead stuff in the ocean are thriving. Is it not a possible explanation that there are a lot more dead animals in the ocean for the lobsters to eat? It wasnt suggested a possible reason in the article.
- daveslash 9y ago
  As someone who grew up in coastal Downeast Maine and has been lobster fishing on multiple occasions, it is my understanding that the lobsters partially feed off the dead herring used as bait. Fresh herring (freshly dead) is used as bait in the traps. Every time the trap is pulled up to check for lobsters (every 1-7 days), the old herring is pulled out of the bait pocket and fresh herring (freshly dead) is put back into the bait pocket. The old herring is tossed overboard where it sinks to the bottom and becomes food for lobsters. In a sense, the fishermen are cultivating the lobsters by feeding them. Here is a photo that I took, while lobster fishing, of herring that was used, pulled out of a bait pocket, and subsequently tossed overboard. Warning: graphic picture of dead fish. https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.j...
chrisbennet 9y ago
Some data points in no particular order: - The Secret Life of Lobsters, I highly recommend this book about lobsters, science and lobstering industry. It was a best seller so don't let the title turn you off. - Lobsters enter the trap, eat the bait - and leave. (This is a relatively recent discovery.) Lobsterman it turns out, have been feeding the lobsters all this time. This might explain the consistently large catch. - There were laws at one point that limited the # of days a week you could serve lobster to your hired help.
droithomme 9y ago
> On average, it takes about a pound of herring to catch a pound of lobster. That is very interesting and something I didn't know. I like herring more than lobster. It has greater nutritional value. It's kosher. And it is not a giant sea insect fed to prisoners. What is not to like. I wonder whether similar actions to protect herrings are being taken as once were taken to protect lobsters.
rabboRubble 9y ago
Am I the only one who thinks this sounds delicious?
dghughes 9y ago
From the article it says it's the same in Canada? Lobsters catches are down here in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence this season prices are about $8/pound for markets (big lobsters). Maybe they meant south-west Nova Scotia since it is close to Maine. http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory/Lobster/1061105 http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory... An interesting point lobsters are supposedly immortal they just keep on going if not caught of course (and if not eaten!). Also interesting in December 2016 there was a mysterious die off of many types of sea life off south-west Nova Scotia. I guess this didn't affect Maine but I'm not sure if it affected NS since their lobster season is in the fall http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-dead-herring-lobsters-starfish-mystery-1.3914056 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-dead-h...
Bakary 9y ago
I recommend reading the essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace :)
- krylon 9y ago
  Funny coincidence, but I just read it a few weeks ago. Yes, highly recommended reading.
slacka 9y ago
If you found this interesting, I highly recommend Frontline's The Fish on My Plate [1]. It chronicles this quirky author's journey into the world of seafood. He does a "Supersize me" like experiment with seafood. I learned a lot and it even inspired me to modify my diet. Mussels not only are delicious, they help clean up the excess runoff from farms. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/
hueving 9y ago
I've had difficulty eating lobster due to the whole boiling alive bit after reading this: http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf
coldtea 9y ago
How can I help? I'll bring my own butter and salt.
draugadrotten 9y ago
The Lobster chart in the article reminds me so much of the Cod Collapse() () https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery#/media/File:Surexploitation_morue_surp%C3%AAcheEn.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...

248 points by hunglee2 9y ago

I for one will do my part to help pick up the slack in demand. While the wholesale price has fluctuated, has there been much change in retail/restaurant lobster prices? I certainly don't see restaurants near me lowering the price of a lobster roll. If anything, looks like Old Port Lobster Shack in Redwood City increased theirs judging by what Google shows in their menu listing for a "Maine Lobster Roll" ($18.75) vs. what their website shows ($22.95). But that's just a local price in a market that in general seems to see prices racing upwards due to the influx of cash in the area.

rl3 9y ago
>I for one will do my part to help pick up the slack in demand. Likewise. It's a tough job, but someone has to do it.
hammock 9y ago
>has there been much change in retail/restaurant lobster prices? No. Anecdotally, and also supported by data there was an article at some point about it. The worst part is a lot of restaurants use rock lobster instead of Maine lobster
ghaff 9y ago
Current pricing is often reflected to at least a certain degree in authentic lobster shacks on the Maine coast. However, in general, lobster is still priced in many places as this premium good. (I'm looking at you Legal Seafood with your $26 lobster rolls.) And, even worse, it's still common to hide the pricing behind "market price." (It's fair that lobster pricing does fluctuate more than other proteins but "market price" is at least as much about reducing pricing transparency.) So, the short answer is that lower lobster pricing doesn't seem to have led to widespread lower pricing in most places.
- kirykl 9y ago
  Market price in this case is retail. Its the price that will move the inventory of lobsters for the most money, before they die of starvation or kill/eat each other in the tank.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Of course lobster pounds and the like have a market price that's usually posted on a chalk board or whiteboard. What I was referring to was regular restaurants that routinely don't list a price for dishes that use lobster on their menu and instead just say "market price." Which, in my experience, is more or less a synonym for "expensive." I'd note that, in addition to lobster pounds, it's far more common for coastal Maine restaurants to have the price for lobster in their menu like they do for every other dish.
tyingq 9y ago
Some of the New England area McDonalds sell Lobster rolls: https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-eat/mcdonalds-lobster-roll/ https://newengland.com/today/travel/new-england/places-to-ea... No idea if they are any good, but they are $8.
- ghaff 9y ago
  They're apparently pretty bad. From what I've seen they're mostly a pre-frozen mush mixed in with lots of lettuce. Lobster rolls are really pretty simple. But they need to be fresh lobster and very little else--which obviously isn't a good match for McDonalds style prep. The good news is that means they're very easy to make at home and many places that sell lobster will even boil them for you.
- wcummings 9y ago
  Au Bon Pain used to in New England as well.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Usually fast food lobster is warm water langistino. I tried the McLobster a few years ago, it was pretty mediocre.
- cjlars 9y ago
  I've eaten them. It's the worst lobster roll I ever had, but the best McDonalds sandwich I ever had.
- flyingfences 9y ago
  If you're actually in New England then you don't have to go to McDank's for a lobster roll.
clashmoore 9y ago
Anecdotally, I am in the North East and I do recall a year (probably 2012ish) where every local restaurant had exploded with lobster specials. Not necessarily whole lobsters for sale, but their meat used as a choice of protein along side chicken, beef, etc. The price at that time dropped to like $9 per pound in the super markets. Since that year, I haven't seen the same offerings where this Bloomberg article would suggest that the amount of harvested lobsters has gone up.
- Goronmon 9y ago
  A few years ago you could get lobsters from Market Basket for $3.99 a pound. And they would steam them for you at no charge. My wife and I would go to the beach in the morning and pick up a couple decent size lobsters on the way home for around $10. That was a fun summer.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - alarat2001 9y ago
    In 2012, early warming of the Gulf of Maine precipitated an early and voluminous lobster molt. (The summer lobster are soft shell, meaning they have just molted). This glutted the market, creating dock prices near $2/ lb. During this summer, someone in Maine could buy a lobster for ~4-5 dollars.
mjn 9y ago
The article does discuss why there isn't a significant decline in price. Its two proposed explanations are increased demand from Chinese buyers, and increased demand from the relatively new lobster-roll phenomenon: > This leaves the Maine (and Canadian) lobster industry with another interesting challenge: how to find enough buyers for all those lobsters so that prices don't collapse. As you can see from the chart below, they've mostly succeeded: > [price chart] > Affluent Chinese diners have been one reason. This January, five chartered 747s full of live lobsters flew from Halifax, Nova Scotia, to China to supply Chinese New Year feasts. Maine's lobsters tend to make the voyage less dramatically, in regularly scheduled flights from Boston, but $27 million worth of them were shipped to China in 2016. > The national and even global spread of the lobster roll has also helped a lot. I came to Maine on a trip organized by Luke's Lobster, a fast-casual restaurant chain that now has 21 "shacks" in the U.S. and eight more scheduled to open this year, along with six licensed locations in Japan. ... Luke's Lobster now has its own plant in Saco, Maine, that processes between 4 and 5 percent of the state's lobster harvest. Processing, in this case, means cooking and picking the meat out of the claws and knuckles for Luke's lobster rolls while cleaning and freezing the raw tails and clawless "bullet" lobsters for sale to restaurants, groceries and such. > Holden's father, Jeff, says that tails used to sell for much more than claw meat. Now lobster rolls, for which tail meat is generally too chewy, have flipped the price equation.
nattaylor 9y ago
A fun read on this subject: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/clawback http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/clawback
awkwardtortoise 9y ago
Nope. We get maine lobsters in the NY area and the price has increased in the last few years. Haven't had lobsters because I refuse to pay extortion prices.

scrollbar 9y ago

I'm in the middle of reading Owning Our Future: The Emerging Ownership Revolution by Marjorie Kelly, which talks extensively about Maine lobster fishery rights. Along the sensitive areas of the coast, only owner-operated boats are allowed to fish, and these people must all have certified lobster fishing licenses. Their licensure also gives them voting rights around regulations for lobstering- in a sense, they own the commons and collectively make rules governing it. Kelly argues that this ownership of the lobstering commons, in a cooperative-like structure, leads to greater sustainability. Large corporate boats can operate only in designated areas. Instead of permitting limitless liberty to absentee owners for the seeking of wealth -- by hired hands indifferent to local custom -- Maine set spinning a new governing pattern…. That the right to make a living comes before the right to make a killing. That fairness for the many is more important than maximizing for the few. That sustaining the prosperity of larger living systems, both human and wild, is the root condition for the flourishing of all. (page 138) I'd highly recommend the book, which introduces the dichotomy of "generative" organizations (which by design seek to produce social value in addition to profit) vs. "extractive" organizations (which maximize financial value above all else). I'm surprised this article skips over this topic entirely.

dublinben 9y ago
Well it is Bloomberg, after all. That doesn't fit their narrative, or support the established biases of their audience.
valuearb 9y ago
This is great, I hope we apply it to the rest of the ocean life that we farm.
- dflock 9y ago
  The problem is that mostly we don't farm ocean life - we just hunt it, on an industrial scale.
  - Finnucane 9y ago
    More than half of the seafood consumed globally is farmed: http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/aquaculture/faqs/faq_aq_101.html http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/aquaculture/faqs/faq_aq_101.html

zwieback 9y ago

Is the herring they use as bait the same fish I buy in cans or jars in the supermarket? I'd rather eat that than lobster most days.

strictnein 9y ago
Plain herring or pickled herring?
- zwieback 9y ago
  Both pickled and the canned German varieties I grew up with, e.g. with cream, mustard or tomato sauce.
  - MandieD 9y ago
    According to my husband, canned herring in tomato sauce or cream is delicious but I can't bring myself to even try it due to the smell. He's only allowed to eat it indoors if I'm not home, and the cans have to be thrown in the outside trash immediately.
    - zwieback 9y ago
      Same situation at my house - outside consumption and disposal only.
anon1121 9y ago
Yes, there are quite a few bait fish that are good eating.
HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
Yes, as bait fish they're quite easy to catch. Drop a line with a few shiny gold hooks and you'll likely pull it back up with a herring on each hook. For some reason they really like shiny objects. Only problem is they only taste good smoked, and when I had easy access to fishing for herring, I didn't have a smoker :-(

tyteen4a03 9y ago

Copy the Danes: Mass-approve Chinese visitor visas, and lonsters will go extinct before you can say "Please take our lobsters"

sctb 9y ago
Please don't post unsubstantive inflammatory comments on Hacker News. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- drhodes 9y ago
  This isn't inflammatory. This was in the news recently, the Chinese folks THEMSELVES were commenting on how they would do a number on the invasive species, because they happened to have a taste for a particular oyster which the Dane's apparently do not. > The most popular comment came from someone (a Chinese) suggesting oyster visas should be issued "with 10 years' unlimited round trips and one-month-long stay and I can eat up them all in five years" received over 10,000 likes. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-04/27/content_29114134.htm http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2017-04/27/content_291141...
  - logfromblammo 9y ago
    I believe the Cantonese/Vietnamese saying goes "anything with four legs, except table and chair; anything that flies, except airplane." The Great Leap Forward conditioned the survivors to eat absolutely anything that moves. They'll even eat sea stars and jellyfish, without even gagging. While the rest of the world wonders how to dispose of the frozen gorillas[0], the Chinese are already wiping the fryer oil off their hands and throwing away the skewer. As tourists, they have an international reputation in the hospitality and tourism industry for eating literally anything you might care to put on their plate. [0] The Simpsons, "Bart the Mother" (10:3). According to Skinner, the pigeons are eaten by the Bolivian Tree Lizards, the lizards are eaten by Chinese Needle Snakes, the snakes are eaten by snake-eating gorillas, and the gorillas freeze to death during the winter.

shoover 9y ago

I went to Stonington last fall with my family. It's a beautiful and interesting place. We were fortunate to rent from a lifelong local and tour with a retired oil industry scientist and learned about a lot of this while there. The locals are very proud of the lobster industry and efforts to regulate it pragmatically but also humble and understanding that it could disappear quickly if the overall ecology changes and especially if the water temperature sweet spot continues moving north. There is concern for the economic prospects of those who leave school early or skip college to take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else if the fishing goes away. I thought they said many lobster boat captains made more like double the article's stated $45k; of course, that's only for the owner/operator. It's no desk job, for sure: those guys are out on the water before sunrise every day (except during thunderstorms) and it is cold out there. They do wrap up pretty early in the afternoon.

lukethomas 9y ago
Yup - in addition, many take the winter off. It's hard work during the peak times of year, but I'd compare it to the schedule of a school teacher (~3 month break).
xemdetia 9y ago
A lot of the Northeast coastline acts like this from New York to Maine. You have to remember too that this area has a long and firm understanding of what overfishing does (Nantucket, whaling industry) and chose to try and find the most stable route. Most of that area's income is export of fishing and tourism from people from elsewhere coming to visit the beach. I grew up in this area and you are definitely brought up being very mindful of it.
yardie 9y ago
> take fishing jobs young and may not be prepared for much else if the fishing goes away Why not just go back to school and retrain for another career? Offshore and deepsea fishing is backbreaking, labour intensive work. I'd hope most of them were smart enough to figure out they aren't going to do this for the rest of their lives. Hell, I was a bartender once and even I figured out that standing on my feet 8-12 hours per day won't be possible after so many years.

lukethomas 9y ago

I live in Maine. So far this year in Maine, the price is about 2x what it normally goes for. Locals say it's because there's such strong overseas demand (China, etc). The average price of a lobster roll I'd say is around $18. Contrary to what the article says "it's not making anybody rich" I can tell you the lobstermen who typically sell lobster for $2/lb off the dock are very happy with $4/lb. A friend on a very good day will catch 2,000 pounds, so the extra margin this year is welcomed.

ghaff 9y ago
They seem to be starting to come down. They were $7/lb. at my local Hannaford's in Massachusetts today. (Down from about $12 fairly recently.) I assume that these are new shells coming in but I didn't buy any.

celias 9y ago

I remember reading about how abundant lobsters were on a historical plaque in Cape Breton. From travel Canada - "There was a time when these crustaceans were so plentiful and underappreciated that only the poorest children took lobster sandwiches in their lunches while the rich kids ate bologna." http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-lobster-on-cape-bretons-cabot-trail http://www.torontosun.com/2016/07/27/learning-about-lobster-...

lukethomas 9y ago
Folklore told here in Maine said that lobsters were so abundant they would walk up on the beaches. It was considered to be "trash" food and they fed it to prisoners. http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-history http://www.history.com/news/a-taste-of-lobster-history
- EvanAnderson 9y ago
  Others who are into lobster folklore I suspect will enjoy listening to episode 33 of "The Memory Palace" podcast: http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-lobsters/ http://thememorypalace.us/2010/08/episode-33-lost-lobsters/
pcmaffey 9y ago
Mud bugs

gumby 9y ago

One of the non-obvious factors of the economics of farming (fishing a specific region included): since most of the inputs are the same (weather, and with the emergence of commodity crops over the last century, seed too), if you have a good year, so do your peers, which drives down the value of the crop; when the year is bad (driving up the value) your yield has likely sunk. This is the justification of ag cooperatives (like the recently invalidated California Raisin Advisory board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Board https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Raisin_Advisory_Boa...) which are/were granted monopoly control over marketing and enforcement of production controls. These boards have been really useful (in some fisheries like Ayre Peninsula / South Australia, and according to this article perhaps in Maine) and really terrible (e.g. Wisconsin milk boards).

ehnto 9y ago
The regulations in the Eyre peninsula, and SA in general, benefit the single boat owner over the corporate fisheries and I think that's really cool. The strange side effect of the free market eventually benefiting large corporate entities makes the concept of a meritocracy somewhat warped. It's hard to pull yourself up from your bootstraps if your competitor has ten boats full of cheap boots. With just the right amount of regulation, you can make something that works well for many as opposed to very well for few. Anecdotally: My father was a skipper on a cray boat, catching crayfish in the south east of South Australia. The boat owners in those towns were essentially the wealthy elite. But the work was tough and most of my fathers friends hit 50 with significant ailments. One has an elevator in his house as he can't ascend stairs, the other suffered a stroke at 48 and is constantly in agonising back pain, and I bumped into one more in a neck brace who was doped up on opiates to cope. They made their money and retired early, but there was definitely a cost and perhaps they never got to truly enjoy the fruits of their labour.

dade_ 9y ago

It concerns me that the creatures that devour dead stuff in the ocean are thriving. Is it not a possible explanation that there are a lot more dead animals in the ocean for the lobsters to eat? It wasnt suggested a possible reason in the article.

daveslash 9y ago
As someone who grew up in coastal Downeast Maine and has been lobster fishing on multiple occasions, it is my understanding that the lobsters partially feed off the dead herring used as bait. Fresh herring (freshly dead) is used as bait in the traps. Every time the trap is pulled up to check for lobsters (every 1-7 days), the old herring is pulled out of the bait pocket and fresh herring (freshly dead) is put back into the bait pocket. The old herring is tossed overboard where it sinks to the bottom and becomes food for lobsters. In a sense, the fishermen are cultivating the lobsters by feeding them. Here is a photo that I took, while lobster fishing, of herring that was used, pulled out of a bait pocket, and subsequently tossed overboard. Warning: graphic picture of dead fish. https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.jpg https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1120/5100863905_1d9520e7eb_b.j...

chrisbennet 9y ago

Some data points in no particular order: - The Secret Life of Lobsters, I highly recommend this book about lobsters, science and lobstering industry. It was a best seller so don't let the title turn you off. - Lobsters enter the trap, eat the bait - and leave. (This is a relatively recent discovery.) Lobsterman it turns out, have been feeding the lobsters all this time. This might explain the consistently large catch. - There were laws at one point that limited the # of days a week you could serve lobster to your hired help.

droithomme 9y ago

> On average, it takes about a pound of herring to catch a pound of lobster. That is very interesting and something I didn't know. I like herring more than lobster. It has greater nutritional value. It's kosher. And it is not a giant sea insect fed to prisoners. What is not to like. I wonder whether similar actions to protect herrings are being taken as once were taken to protect lobsters.

rabboRubble 9y ago

Am I the only one who thinks this sounds delicious?

dghughes 9y ago

From the article it says it's the same in Canada? Lobsters catches are down here in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence this season prices are about $8/pound for markets (big lobsters). Maybe they meant south-west Nova Scotia since it is close to Maine. http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory/Lobster/1061105 http://www.seafoodnews.com/Login.aspx?ReturnUrl=/SearchStory... An interesting point lobsters are supposedly immortal they just keep on going if not caught of course (and if not eaten!). Also interesting in December 2016 there was a mysterious die off of many types of sea life off south-west Nova Scotia. I guess this didn't affect Maine but I'm not sure if it affected NS since their lobster season is in the fall http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-dead-herring-lobsters-starfish-mystery-1.3914056 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/nova-scotia-dead-h...

Bakary 9y ago

I recommend reading the essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace :)

krylon 9y ago
Funny coincidence, but I just read it a few weeks ago. Yes, highly recommended reading.

slacka 9y ago

If you found this interesting, I highly recommend Frontline's The Fish on My Plate [1]. It chronicles this quirky author's journey into the world of seafood. He does a "Supersize me" like experiment with seafood. I learned a lot and it even inspired me to modify my diet. Mussels not only are delicious, they help clean up the excess runoff from farms. [1] http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/

hueving 9y ago

I've had difficulty eating lobster due to the whole boiling alive bit after reading this: http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf

coldtea 9y ago

How can I help? I'll bring my own butter and salt.

draugadrotten 9y ago

The Lobster chart in the article reminds me so much of the Cod Collapse() () https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery#/media/File:Surexploitation_morue_surp%C3%AAcheEn.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_northwest_cod_fishery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_Atlantic_north...