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Human rights activist risks prison over refusal to disclose password to police

312 points by robteix 9y ago

bogle 9y ago
First time I've heard of Cage. Given the entirely reasonable reasons Mr Rabbani gave for non-compliance I hope he wins his case. He is surely in the right? The awful treatment of non-white UK citizens at our borders is another problem again, quite possibly due in part to the institutional racism that still exists in our police forces.
- beedogs 9y ago
  Frankly, Schedule 7 stops need to be eliminated, since they only seem to be used to harass and intimidate minorities.
  - grey-area 9y ago
    And recruit them for the spy agencies. Find some small transgression on their device, use it as leverage. I imagine this guy is a high value target for them, given contact with prisoners. All this data is being stored and shared too, so your passwords, contacts, travel history and web history will be sitting in datacenters forever, just in case you might be useful to them later.
- adnam 9y ago
  It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Well isn't that a huge hint the authorities should take when an Islamist pressure group, in today's context, feels closer to the general public than the government ? We all hate those laws. We hate the TSA. We hate the border control overkill checks. We hate the "give us the password" bullshit. We hate it so much when something suspicious may be happening we automatically assume the suspect is the victim. Somewhere down the road the gov messed up so bad it's guilty by default until proven innocent into the eye of people on HN, a group of usually pretty well educated people. That is a red flag.
    - marcosdumay 9y ago
      Who is "we"? Last time I traveled to the US was in 2013. The TSA were a bother, but didn't really stand out compared to US immigration checks, airline policies, being contained in an airplane for 12 hours, my country fiscal policies on return, finding taxis to go from airport to destination and everything. Yes, the TSA thing is aggravated by it being useless, but I don't expect any general population to know this.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > Cage is an Islamist pressure group. They've clearly denounced extremist Islam.
    - adnam 9y ago
      They also clearly gave a platform to Al Quaeda recruiter al-Awlaki. It's better to judge people by they actions rather than their words.
      - dublinben 9y ago
        So did YouTube, yet you don't see their executives being stopped and searched at borders.
        adnam 9y ago
        Which is obviously not the same thing.
        vinceguidry 9y ago
        YouTube's only a platform in the technological sense. Think about what it is in the very basic sense, a raised platform in a public area. While YouTube is public, it is not raised. If you go to YouTube's public marketplace, you must build a raised platform yourself if you want to have one. It's the difference between me publishing your videos to my YouTube feed and PewDiePie publishing your videos up to his feed.
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        YouTube actually is "raised" in the sense you describe, relative to other websites which could theoretically host video content (all of them). This is why people worry, with some justification, about YouTube censoring content. And, symmetrically, it's enough for other people to complain, again with some justification, that YouTube isn't censoring enough content and should be punished for that.
        9y ago
  - triplesec 9y ago
    Be careful of how you approach other religions: peaceful Christianist pressure groups don't get the same treatment.
    - adnam 9y ago
      Sorry I don't know what you mean.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - driverdan 9y ago
    So? Cage could be a straight up terrorist group and this incident would still be wrong. There's a reason why due process exists.
    - adnam 9y ago
      I don't disagree with you, but given their history I would take what they say with a large pinch of salt.
    - tomp 9y ago
      Arresting a member of a terorist group would be wrong? What are you smoking?!
      - jstanley 9y ago
        You arrest people for committing actual crimes, not just for associating with groups of people that you don't like.
        adnam 9y ago
        No, you arrest people suspected of having committed crimes and give them due process of law
        danesparza 9y ago
        Love your enthusiasm. You're close, but not quite right. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process) "Due process is the legal requirement that the state must respect all legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due process violation, which offends the rule of law." I think the important point to note is that the 'digital strip search' mentioned is used in an arbitrary way and is a great power in the hands of folks not particularly careful about abusing it.
  - fictioncircle 9y ago
    > It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group. Alright, so all the Christian pressure groups should get that kind of treatment in your view then? If not, given CAGE isn't pro-terrorist and is simply pro-Islam, you even pointing that out is...really questionable judgment on your part.
    - adnam 9y ago
      It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10981050/The-evidence-shows-that-Cage-is-a-pro-terrorist-group.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105...
      - valuearb 9y ago
        can't tell from this article, which reads like an editorial and is extremely vague on actual facts.
      - fictioncircle 9y ago
        > It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.... So your argument is torture is OK because they are convicted terrorists? Or that the US military is pro-Terrorist? > For example, Cage is animated about the case of Aafia Siddiqui, jailed for 86 years in the US for attempting to murder US officials in Afghanistan and assaulting those who tried to stop her. Siddiqui had wide-ranging links to al-Qaeda and was married to a key plotter behind the 9/11 attacks. At the beginning of her trial she said that jurors should be "subject to genetic testing" to see if they were Zionist or Israeli. She is no terror suspect – her guilt was proved in a court of law. Yet Cage’s profile on Siddiqui – which misses literally all this out – says it has "dedicated itself" to freeing her. > Aafia Siddiqui and her three children were kidnapped from the streets of Karachi in March 2003. Since then they have been subjected to enforced disappearances, torture and ill-treatment beyond measure. Cageprisoners has dedicated itself to campaigning for Aafia and her family in order to help secure their release and expose those involved in their abuse. > Others that Cage support include Djamel Beghal, who, following allegations of a plot to blow up the US embassy in Paris, was jailed in France in 2005 for "belonging to a criminal association in relation to preparing an act of terrorism"; and Nizar Trabelsi, convicted in Belgium as part of an al-Qaeda plot to carry out a suicide attack against a military base there holding US soldiers. > Le Point reported that the Emirati police had been sharing information with the French authorities since the beginning of August 2001. Questions being asked of Beghal confirmed for him that it was the French who were feeding information to the Emirati police during his torture and abuse. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-dined-pentagon-months.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-... > Anwar Al-Awlaki may be the first American on the CIA's kill or capture list, but he was also a lunch guest of military brass at the Pentagon within months of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Fox News has learned.
mm4 9y ago
if MRI would be sensible enough to read memories and thoughts, how long would you think it would take before there would be a law allowing them to dump your brain at an airport...? The sad part is - the only defense is dying of old age or accident before this miracle of science is developed...
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  We're not at that juncture, and, I wouldn't assume there isn't a way around it. You could still obfuscate information in your brain such that it's hard to decode.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    This is the plot of _The Demolished Man_ (Bester, 1953)
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >You could still obfuscate information in your brain such that it's hard to decode. And that would made you unemployable, subject to arrest, etc. Political and legal issues don't get solved with technical workarounds (unless they can force the law to change -- which I guess would count as a legal change, not a technical workaround).
    - unityByFreedom 9y ago
      Well, I don't think we need to be dogmatic about saying politics is the only solution. I think technology often moves forward when policy fails. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight with everything we have for policy we believe is right.
- cryptarch 9y ago
  I'm flying significantly less, you could try that?
  - noja 9y ago
k-mcgrady 9y ago
28,000 people stopped using these powers - less than 56 people charged (no specific number for that so it could be significantly less than 56 as that's the number of arrests). When the authorities are given such a powerful tool (and such a violating tool) it should have to prove significantly useful to continue to exist. Schedule 7 clearly hasn't. Also quite shocking that only 0.2% of people stopped are arrested and non-compliance == arrest. That's a lot of people just handing over data and passwords without a fight.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >When the authorities are given such a powerful tool (and such a violating tool) it should have to prove significantly useful to continue to exist Unfortunately, the only real constrain for it to not continue to exist would be to cost some people their political career due to media/public backlash and such.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Who is the last person (or any people, really) at this level who experienced an adverse effect on their political career due to "media/public backlash?"
    - coldtea 9y ago
      When was the last time that there was an actual media/public backslash on these matters?
    - white-flame 9y ago
      I think it's more that if politician A did such a thing, it would give opposing politician/party B ammo to mount a campaign to incite backlash, not that the public cares enough to backlash themselves.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Also quite shocking that only 0.2% of people stopped are arrested and non-compliance == arrest. That's a lot of people just handing over data and passwords without a fight. No, you've misunderstood that. The article mentions that he's been stopped previously, and asked for his passwords, and has declined before without being arrested. So maybe that low arrest rate is a glimmer of hope: they could be arresting many more people. It still sucks, and it clearly needs reform which is unlikely under current or future governments.
schaeff 9y ago
About CAGE from Wikipedia: "The organisation has been criticised as "apologists for terrorism",[7] as a "terrorism advocacy group" and of "propagating the myth of Muslim persecution".[8] While others deny this and claim they are doing "vital work".[7]" and "The journalist Terry Glavin in The National Post described the organisation as "a front for Taliban enthusiasts and al Qaida devotees that fraudulently presents itself a human rights group".[16]".
- k-mcgrady 9y ago
  Also from Wikipedia: "CAGE, formerly Cageprisoners Ltd, is a London-based advocacy organisation which aims to "empower communities impacted by the War on Terror" and "highlight and campaign against state policies pertaining to the War on Terror".[2][3] The organisation was formed to raise awareness of the plight of the detainees held at Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere as a result of the War on Terror and has worked closely with former detainees held by the United States and campaigns on behalf of current detainees held without trial.[2][4][5]"
- triplesec 9y ago
  As with the other response to your comment: there will always be some on the right that claim this. The truth tends to lie in examining the details and actions of people, rather than asssuming that an organisation standing up for the rights of muslims is necessarily going to be a terrorism-supporting organisation. I don't know in this case, but we give a lot more leeway to extreme churches, for example.
agent3bood 9y ago
This site is blocked in the middle east.
- triplesec 9y ago
  which country? Do you have an idea why?
  - devrandomguy 9y ago
    In Qatar, it is illegal to criticize the ruling family, for example. It is also illegal to promote methods of circumventing the various internet laws, such as VPNs. Sites that are perceived to fall foul of this, get blocked. It is very irritating; I got in the habit of using Tor for everything. The block looks like this: https://dohanews.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/qatar-block.png https://dohanews.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/qatar-block.p...
aboutthat 9y ago
I understand these powers are often used to intimidate and pressure minorities on their way out of the UK too. For example, a traveller will be questioned about his family in Pakistan. It's a criminal offence not to answer. However the threat that is used is that the person will be detained for long enough that they miss their flight. They'll need to rebook it at 4X the cost with no guarantee they'll be allowed to board the next flight either. These powers are being abused to coerce and haven't been properly tested in court. The UK should restore the right to silence.
- CommanderData 9y ago
  The current government (Conservatives) that has so far championed snoopers charter bill, is contemplating the removal of EU human rights protections and proposing reforming workers rights making families financially worse off. I really doubt they care in the slightest about that. But perhaps this is the government we deserve as we vote them in, they reflect what is within ourselves.
foldr 9y ago
I don't think the police should be able to compel people to disclose their passwords. However, there's a possibility that 'human rights activist' should be taken with a pinch of salt here. CAGE is a pretty shady organization in some respects. For example see this interview with its 'research director' Asim Qureshi (who to be clear, is not the guy featured in the article): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0n-08I3P8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0n-08I3P8s
- bmelton 9y ago
  I don't know much about CAGE, and my Googling isn't proving to be terribly enlightening (yet), but: The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
  - foldr 9y ago
    That's true but not really relevant to the video that I linked to. The issue is that CAGE has at times crossed the line into offering support for what the scoundrels are doing, rather than just defending their legal rights. For example, Asim Qureshi still has kind words for Mohammed Emwazi even after he committed beheadings. As I said, I am not in favour of the security services having these powers. However, from the fact that the powers are excessive and unjust, it does not follow that all of the people targeted are innocent victims.
    - bmelton 9y ago
      They may well have. After watching the video you linked, it seems that there is a very blurry, very nuanced line between supporting the rights of the offender and supporting the offenses, and listening to that interview with a blank-slate understanding of the matter, it seemed as though they were mostly talking past each other. Again though, my knowledge is short on the subject, but the Mencken quote felt an appropriate addenda to the video you linked, from a variety of ways. Remember that even if CAGE organizers are sympathetic to the goals of those they defend, once they've defended them, they're still defending civil rights.
tjpnz 9y ago
New Zealand is planning to implement such powers. Fortunately for us there's only a 5k fine in it for non-compliance. It's scary to see how competent governments (read: dangerous) have implemented their laws.
- daemin 9y ago
  A 5k fine is still significant, especially if they can apply it for each act of non-compliance. So if they ask you to disclose information that you don't want several times in a single day (and slightly changing what exact information they want to access), you could be hit several times with a 5k fine. At that stage it should be affordable enough to hire a lawyer to deal with it.
amarant 9y ago
Id like to be able to configure 2 passwords on my devices, one that logs me in, and another "destruct password" that when entered as password, wipes the device clean and overwrites the drive. preferably I'd be able to configure certain directories that should be wiped, so only confidential data is destroyed. then it would log in normally. I doubt silly borderguards would realize the pwnage
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Belphemur 9y ago
  I'd prefer a clean partition with some unconspicuous data on it. Better that way then they won't dig more into the phone.
  - flipp3r 9y ago
    Truecrypt and variations have something like this, I believe they call it Hidden volumes
    - bitwize 9y ago
      If they find out or even suspect it, hello felony obstruction of justice and making false statements charges.
      - triplesec 9y ago
        Really? For a search? You are allowed to hide things in your house. This is certainly not legislated.
        sillysaurus3 9y ago
        It's illegal to lie to investigators. (They're allowed to lie to you, but not vice-versa.)
jamiethompson 9y ago
We're heading towards needing to travel sans devices if we want any kind of privacy, but then doing so in itself could be seen as cause for suspicion.
jlebrech 9y ago
what if you don't want some law enforcement chump to know a password you potentially use elsewhere such as website, and will have to change after they've had a look. couldn't you unlock, and change the password to "changeme" for them. I suggest using https://www.passwordcard.org/en https://www.passwordcard.org/en and telling them where the passwords stop and start and make a new card once they release you.
- kortex 9y ago
  Or maybe you shouldn't have to give up a password without a subpoena. Or at all. They can seize it, let them try to decrypt it.
EliRivers 9y ago
I knew without checking this was going to be about the UK. Expect May to drive through harsher legislation; as she repeats, chanting to us like a one-woman rally, strong and stable, strong and stable, strong and stable...
wehadfun 9y ago
How ever terrible this person feels about his treatment by the UK. He still feels it is better than living in the middle east where his ancestors are from. If you downvote this comment I would appreciate a simple response as to which is the worst place here. The UK or the middle east
- CleaveIt2Beaver 9y ago
  I think if your comment draws downvotes, it would be because it implies that simply because the UK is in a better place overall, that efforts to improve are unnecessary. Just because you're doing okay doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying to improve. This applies so much more heavily as scale increases, also. A country should always strive to do what is best for its citizens, and for that, we need to always be examining potentially problematic areas.
- sctb 9y ago
  Please don't start flamewars like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mdekkers 9y ago
...despite being told by police that he had “nothing to worry about” and was not suspected of any wrongdoing... Never talk to the police. Doesn't matter what they say, never, ever talk to the police, about anything, for any reason. Talk to your lawyer. The police are not on your side.
jeena 9y ago
I'd say the terrorists are winning.
- MrZongle2 9y ago
  I can't speak for the UK, but here in the US it should have been evident as soon as the PATRIOT Act was passed.
mnm1 9y ago
It's fascinating how Britain seems to have a need to be at the forefront of despicable surveillance and censorship amongst western countries, beating out even the US with their horrific laws. I wonder if it's jealousy over losing their position as head of empire to the US and wanting to one up them in one of the few areas--digital oppression--that they still can. Seems like such school-yard, childish rivalries are often employed to get really nasty atrocities done like the Iraq war and total surveillance. Playing catch-up to US atrocities is a losing game for almost any country, but I have to commend Britain. They have done a decent job keeping up generally, and a superior job beating the US digitally.
Gaelan 9y ago
Can we get a (UK) in the title?
gojomo 9y ago
It'd be helpful if HN headlines for such news, where law & enforcement varies a lot, mentioned the jurisdictions involved. This is in the UK.
kazinator 9y ago
Not disclosing a password that you allegedly know corresponds to what George Orwell called "thoughtcrime" in Nineteen Eighty-Four.
smokedoutraider 9y ago
Cage is a terrorist sympathizing group, and this asshole is an enabler. I hope he spends time in jail and is forces to give up his passwords before being released.
blazespin 9y ago
Just say you forgot. Honestly, you can't convict someone for forgetting something.
frabbit 9y ago
He has now been actually charged under the Terrorism Act: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/17/cage-campaign-group-director-muhammed-rabbani-charged-under-terrorism-act https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/17/cage-campaig...

312 points by robteix 9y ago

First time I've heard of Cage. Given the entirely reasonable reasons Mr Rabbani gave for non-compliance I hope he wins his case. He is surely in the right? The awful treatment of non-white UK citizens at our borders is another problem again, quite possibly due in part to the institutional racism that still exists in our police forces.

beedogs 9y ago
Frankly, Schedule 7 stops need to be eliminated, since they only seem to be used to harass and intimidate minorities.
- grey-area 9y ago
  And recruit them for the spy agencies. Find some small transgression on their device, use it as leverage. I imagine this guy is a high value target for them, given contact with prisoners. All this data is being stored and shared too, so your passwords, contacts, travel history and web history will be sitting in datacenters forever, just in case you might be useful to them later.
adnam 9y ago
It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Well isn't that a huge hint the authorities should take when an Islamist pressure group, in today's context, feels closer to the general public than the government ? We all hate those laws. We hate the TSA. We hate the border control overkill checks. We hate the "give us the password" bullshit. We hate it so much when something suspicious may be happening we automatically assume the suspect is the victim. Somewhere down the road the gov messed up so bad it's guilty by default until proven innocent into the eye of people on HN, a group of usually pretty well educated people. That is a red flag.
  - marcosdumay 9y ago
    Who is "we"? Last time I traveled to the US was in 2013. The TSA were a bother, but didn't really stand out compared to US immigration checks, airline policies, being contained in an airplane for 12 hours, my country fiscal policies on return, finding taxis to go from airport to destination and everything. Yes, the TSA thing is aggravated by it being useless, but I don't expect any general population to know this.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Cage is an Islamist pressure group. They've clearly denounced extremist Islam.
  - adnam 9y ago
    They also clearly gave a platform to Al Quaeda recruiter al-Awlaki. It's better to judge people by they actions rather than their words.
    - dublinben 9y ago
      So did YouTube, yet you don't see their executives being stopped and searched at borders.
      - adnam 9y ago
        Which is obviously not the same thing.
      - vinceguidry 9y ago
        YouTube's only a platform in the technological sense. Think about what it is in the very basic sense, a raised platform in a public area. While YouTube is public, it is not raised. If you go to YouTube's public marketplace, you must build a raised platform yourself if you want to have one. It's the difference between me publishing your videos to my YouTube feed and PewDiePie publishing your videos up to his feed.
        thaumasiotes 9y ago
        YouTube actually is "raised" in the sense you describe, relative to other websites which could theoretically host video content (all of them). This is why people worry, with some justification, about YouTube censoring content. And, symmetrically, it's enough for other people to complain, again with some justification, that YouTube isn't censoring enough content and should be punished for that.
        9y ago
- triplesec 9y ago
  Be careful of how you approach other religions: peaceful Christianist pressure groups don't get the same treatment.
  - adnam 9y ago
    Sorry I don't know what you mean.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- driverdan 9y ago
  So? Cage could be a straight up terrorist group and this incident would still be wrong. There's a reason why due process exists.
  - adnam 9y ago
    I don't disagree with you, but given their history I would take what they say with a large pinch of salt.
  - tomp 9y ago
    Arresting a member of a terorist group would be wrong? What are you smoking?!
    - jstanley 9y ago
      You arrest people for committing actual crimes, not just for associating with groups of people that you don't like.
      - adnam 9y ago
        No, you arrest people suspected of having committed crimes and give them due process of law
        danesparza 9y ago
        Love your enthusiasm. You're close, but not quite right. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process) "Due process is the legal requirement that the state must respect all legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due process violation, which offends the rule of law." I think the important point to note is that the 'digital strip search' mentioned is used in an arbitrary way and is a great power in the hands of folks not particularly careful about abusing it.
- fictioncircle 9y ago
  > It's worth pointing out that while some outlets (Guardian etc) report it as just another NGO, Cage is an Islamist pressure group. Alright, so all the Christian pressure groups should get that kind of treatment in your view then? If not, given CAGE isn't pro-terrorist and is simply pro-Islam, you even pointing that out is...really questionable judgment on your part.
  - adnam 9y ago
    It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10981050/The-evidence-shows-that-Cage-is-a-pro-terrorist-group.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105...
    - valuearb 9y ago
      can't tell from this article, which reads like an editorial and is extremely vague on actual facts.
    - fictioncircle 9y ago
      > It's a lot more than "simply pro-Islam" as you say http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1098105.... So your argument is torture is OK because they are convicted terrorists? Or that the US military is pro-Terrorist? > For example, Cage is animated about the case of Aafia Siddiqui, jailed for 86 years in the US for attempting to murder US officials in Afghanistan and assaulting those who tried to stop her. Siddiqui had wide-ranging links to al-Qaeda and was married to a key plotter behind the 9/11 attacks. At the beginning of her trial she said that jurors should be "subject to genetic testing" to see if they were Zionist or Israeli. She is no terror suspect – her guilt was proved in a court of law. Yet Cage’s profile on Siddiqui – which misses literally all this out – says it has "dedicated itself" to freeing her. > Aafia Siddiqui and her three children were kidnapped from the streets of Karachi in March 2003. Since then they have been subjected to enforced disappearances, torture and ill-treatment beyond measure. Cageprisoners has dedicated itself to campaigning for Aafia and her family in order to help secure their release and expose those involved in their abuse. > Others that Cage support include Djamel Beghal, who, following allegations of a plot to blow up the US embassy in Paris, was jailed in France in 2005 for "belonging to a criminal association in relation to preparing an act of terrorism"; and Nizar Trabelsi, convicted in Belgium as part of an al-Qaeda plot to carry out a suicide attack against a military base there holding US soldiers. > Le Point reported that the Emirati police had been sharing information with the French authorities since the beginning of August 2001. Questions being asked of Beghal confirmed for him that it was the French who were feeding information to the Emirati police during his torture and abuse. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-dined-pentagon-months.html http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/20/al-qaeda-terror-leader-... > Anwar Al-Awlaki may be the first American on the CIA's kill or capture list, but he was also a lunch guest of military brass at the Pentagon within months of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, Fox News has learned.

mm4 9y ago

if MRI would be sensible enough to read memories and thoughts, how long would you think it would take before there would be a law allowing them to dump your brain at an airport...? The sad part is - the only defense is dying of old age or accident before this miracle of science is developed...

unityByFreedom 9y ago
We're not at that juncture, and, I wouldn't assume there isn't a way around it. You could still obfuscate information in your brain such that it's hard to decode.
- pjc50 9y ago
  This is the plot of _The Demolished Man_ (Bester, 1953)
- coldtea 9y ago
  >You could still obfuscate information in your brain such that it's hard to decode. And that would made you unemployable, subject to arrest, etc. Political and legal issues don't get solved with technical workarounds (unless they can force the law to change -- which I guess would count as a legal change, not a technical workaround).
  - unityByFreedom 9y ago
    Well, I don't think we need to be dogmatic about saying politics is the only solution. I think technology often moves forward when policy fails. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight with everything we have for policy we believe is right.
cryptarch 9y ago
I'm flying significantly less, you could try that?
- noja 9y ago

k-mcgrady 9y ago

28,000 people stopped using these powers - less than 56 people charged (no specific number for that so it could be significantly less than 56 as that's the number of arrests). When the authorities are given such a powerful tool (and such a violating tool) it should have to prove significantly useful to continue to exist. Schedule 7 clearly hasn't. Also quite shocking that only 0.2% of people stopped are arrested and non-compliance == arrest. That's a lot of people just handing over data and passwords without a fight.

coldtea 9y ago
>When the authorities are given such a powerful tool (and such a violating tool) it should have to prove significantly useful to continue to exist Unfortunately, the only real constrain for it to not continue to exist would be to cost some people their political career due to media/public backlash and such.
- rhizome 9y ago
  Who is the last person (or any people, really) at this level who experienced an adverse effect on their political career due to "media/public backlash?"
  - coldtea 9y ago
    When was the last time that there was an actual media/public backslash on these matters?
  - white-flame 9y ago
    I think it's more that if politician A did such a thing, it would give opposing politician/party B ammo to mount a campaign to incite backlash, not that the public cares enough to backlash themselves.
DanBC 9y ago
> Also quite shocking that only 0.2% of people stopped are arrested and non-compliance == arrest. That's a lot of people just handing over data and passwords without a fight. No, you've misunderstood that. The article mentions that he's been stopped previously, and asked for his passwords, and has declined before without being arrested. So maybe that low arrest rate is a glimmer of hope: they could be arresting many more people. It still sucks, and it clearly needs reform which is unlikely under current or future governments.

schaeff 9y ago

About CAGE from Wikipedia: "The organisation has been criticised as "apologists for terrorism",[7] as a "terrorism advocacy group" and of "propagating the myth of Muslim persecution".[8] While others deny this and claim they are doing "vital work".[7]" and "The journalist Terry Glavin in The National Post described the organisation as "a front for Taliban enthusiasts and al Qaida devotees that fraudulently presents itself a human rights group".[16]".

k-mcgrady 9y ago
Also from Wikipedia: "CAGE, formerly Cageprisoners Ltd, is a London-based advocacy organisation which aims to "empower communities impacted by the War on Terror" and "highlight and campaign against state policies pertaining to the War on Terror".[2][3] The organisation was formed to raise awareness of the plight of the detainees held at Guantánamo Bay and elsewhere as a result of the War on Terror and has worked closely with former detainees held by the United States and campaigns on behalf of current detainees held without trial.[2][4][5]"
triplesec 9y ago
As with the other response to your comment: there will always be some on the right that claim this. The truth tends to lie in examining the details and actions of people, rather than asssuming that an organisation standing up for the rights of muslims is necessarily going to be a terrorism-supporting organisation. I don't know in this case, but we give a lot more leeway to extreme churches, for example.

agent3bood 9y ago

This site is blocked in the middle east.

triplesec 9y ago
which country? Do you have an idea why?
- devrandomguy 9y ago
  In Qatar, it is illegal to criticize the ruling family, for example. It is also illegal to promote methods of circumventing the various internet laws, such as VPNs. Sites that are perceived to fall foul of this, get blocked. It is very irritating; I got in the habit of using Tor for everything. The block looks like this: https://dohanews.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/qatar-block.png https://dohanews.co/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/qatar-block.p...

aboutthat 9y ago

I understand these powers are often used to intimidate and pressure minorities on their way out of the UK too. For example, a traveller will be questioned about his family in Pakistan. It's a criminal offence not to answer. However the threat that is used is that the person will be detained for long enough that they miss their flight. They'll need to rebook it at 4X the cost with no guarantee they'll be allowed to board the next flight either. These powers are being abused to coerce and haven't been properly tested in court. The UK should restore the right to silence.

CommanderData 9y ago
The current government (Conservatives) that has so far championed snoopers charter bill, is contemplating the removal of EU human rights protections and proposing reforming workers rights making families financially worse off. I really doubt they care in the slightest about that. But perhaps this is the government we deserve as we vote them in, they reflect what is within ourselves.

foldr 9y ago

I don't think the police should be able to compel people to disclose their passwords. However, there's a possibility that 'human rights activist' should be taken with a pinch of salt here. CAGE is a pretty shady organization in some respects. For example see this interview with its 'research director' Asim Qureshi (who to be clear, is not the guy featured in the article): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0n-08I3P8s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0n-08I3P8s

bmelton 9y ago
I don't know much about CAGE, and my Googling isn't proving to be terribly enlightening (yet), but: The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
- foldr 9y ago
  That's true but not really relevant to the video that I linked to. The issue is that CAGE has at times crossed the line into offering support for what the scoundrels are doing, rather than just defending their legal rights. For example, Asim Qureshi still has kind words for Mohammed Emwazi even after he committed beheadings. As I said, I am not in favour of the security services having these powers. However, from the fact that the powers are excessive and unjust, it does not follow that all of the people targeted are innocent victims.
  - bmelton 9y ago
    They may well have. After watching the video you linked, it seems that there is a very blurry, very nuanced line between supporting the rights of the offender and supporting the offenses, and listening to that interview with a blank-slate understanding of the matter, it seemed as though they were mostly talking past each other. Again though, my knowledge is short on the subject, but the Mencken quote felt an appropriate addenda to the video you linked, from a variety of ways. Remember that even if CAGE organizers are sympathetic to the goals of those they defend, once they've defended them, they're still defending civil rights.

tjpnz 9y ago

New Zealand is planning to implement such powers. Fortunately for us there's only a 5k fine in it for non-compliance. It's scary to see how competent governments (read: dangerous) have implemented their laws.

daemin 9y ago
A 5k fine is still significant, especially if they can apply it for each act of non-compliance. So if they ask you to disclose information that you don't want several times in a single day (and slightly changing what exact information they want to access), you could be hit several times with a 5k fine. At that stage it should be affordable enough to hire a lawyer to deal with it.

amarant 9y ago

Id like to be able to configure 2 passwords on my devices, one that logs me in, and another "destruct password" that when entered as password, wipes the device clean and overwrites the drive. preferably I'd be able to configure certain directories that should be wiped, so only confidential data is destroyed. then it would log in normally. I doubt silly borderguards would realize the pwnage

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Belphemur 9y ago
I'd prefer a clean partition with some unconspicuous data on it. Better that way then they won't dig more into the phone.
- flipp3r 9y ago
  Truecrypt and variations have something like this, I believe they call it Hidden volumes
  - bitwize 9y ago
    If they find out or even suspect it, hello felony obstruction of justice and making false statements charges.
    - triplesec 9y ago
      Really? For a search? You are allowed to hide things in your house. This is certainly not legislated.
      - sillysaurus3 9y ago
        It's illegal to lie to investigators. (They're allowed to lie to you, but not vice-versa.)

jamiethompson 9y ago

We're heading towards needing to travel sans devices if we want any kind of privacy, but then doing so in itself could be seen as cause for suspicion.

jlebrech 9y ago

what if you don't want some law enforcement chump to know a password you potentially use elsewhere such as website, and will have to change after they've had a look. couldn't you unlock, and change the password to "changeme" for them. I suggest using https://www.passwordcard.org/en https://www.passwordcard.org/en and telling them where the passwords stop and start and make a new card once they release you.

kortex 9y ago
Or maybe you shouldn't have to give up a password without a subpoena. Or at all. They can seize it, let them try to decrypt it.

EliRivers 9y ago

I knew without checking this was going to be about the UK. Expect May to drive through harsher legislation; as she repeats, chanting to us like a one-woman rally, strong and stable, strong and stable, strong and stable...

wehadfun 9y ago

How ever terrible this person feels about his treatment by the UK. He still feels it is better than living in the middle east where his ancestors are from. If you downvote this comment I would appreciate a simple response as to which is the worst place here. The UK or the middle east

CleaveIt2Beaver 9y ago
I think if your comment draws downvotes, it would be because it implies that simply because the UK is in a better place overall, that efforts to improve are unnecessary. Just because you're doing okay doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying to improve. This applies so much more heavily as scale increases, also. A country should always strive to do what is best for its citizens, and for that, we need to always be examining potentially problematic areas.
sctb 9y ago
Please don't start flamewars like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mdekkers 9y ago

...despite being told by police that he had “nothing to worry about” and was not suspected of any wrongdoing... Never talk to the police. Doesn't matter what they say, never, ever talk to the police, about anything, for any reason. Talk to your lawyer. The police are not on your side.

jeena 9y ago

I'd say the terrorists are winning.

MrZongle2 9y ago
I can't speak for the UK, but here in the US it should have been evident as soon as the PATRIOT Act was passed.

mnm1 9y ago

It's fascinating how Britain seems to have a need to be at the forefront of despicable surveillance and censorship amongst western countries, beating out even the US with their horrific laws. I wonder if it's jealousy over losing their position as head of empire to the US and wanting to one up them in one of the few areas--digital oppression--that they still can. Seems like such school-yard, childish rivalries are often employed to get really nasty atrocities done like the Iraq war and total surveillance. Playing catch-up to US atrocities is a losing game for almost any country, but I have to commend Britain. They have done a decent job keeping up generally, and a superior job beating the US digitally.

Gaelan 9y ago

Can we get a (UK) in the title?

gojomo 9y ago

It'd be helpful if HN headlines for such news, where law & enforcement varies a lot, mentioned the jurisdictions involved. This is in the UK.

kazinator 9y ago

Not disclosing a password that you allegedly know corresponds to what George Orwell called "thoughtcrime" in Nineteen Eighty-Four.

smokedoutraider 9y ago

Cage is a terrorist sympathizing group, and this asshole is an enabler. I hope he spends time in jail and is forces to give up his passwords before being released.

blazespin 9y ago

Just say you forgot. Honestly, you can't convict someone for forgetting something.

frabbit 9y ago

He has now been actually charged under the Terrorism Act: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/17/cage-campaign-group-director-muhammed-rabbani-charged-under-terrorism-act https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/17/cage-campaig...